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Author Topic: Patriarch Kirill sends firm letter to Met. Tikhon of the OCA  (Read 6836 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 16, 2012, 06:58:50 PM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 06:59:58 PM by Maria » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 07:04:33 PM »

Wow!  A little direct guidance from the mother, or sister supposedly, church.
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 07:19:27 PM »

yup... I agree.  It is most interesting.

we do have to give Syosset some credit.  They did post the letter on their website. 
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 07:22:05 PM by PrincessMommy » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 07:27:26 PM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.
I suppose only you would see this letter as a slap in the face. And what's with this propaganda, knowing how critical you have been of how the OCA Synod has treated Metropolitan Jonah? No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate? It seems to me that the only one offering anyone a slap in the face is you.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 07:27:58 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 07:37:21 PM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

Huh I'm not seeing the slap in the face, just a few kind words of advice.
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 07:40:14 PM »

yup... I agree.  It is most interesting.

we do have to give Syosset some credit.  They did post the letter on their website. 


They kind of had to.  It was posted on the website of the Patriarch of Russia.  I am pleased that Patriarch Kirill has publicly set expectations.
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 07:58:13 PM »

yup... I agree.  It is most interesting.

we do have to give Syosset some credit.  They did post the letter on their website. 


They kind of had to.  It was posted on the website of the Patriarch of Russia.  I am pleased that Patriarch Kirill has publicly set expectations.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken. Glory to Jesus Christ! Glory to Him forever!
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« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2012, 09:03:19 PM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I don't think it is a slap on the face. Oh, and no one has ever accused Metropolitan Jonah of being a thief or a rapist.
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2012, 10:04:42 PM »

Fortunately, there do not appear to be any slaps in the letter, except maybe a high-five, congratulating him on the new position and giving encouraging advice.

Sure, I would like to see relations grow even more cooperative with other Orthodox churches, restore harmony in the church, and would like to see +Met.Jonah shown respect. I generally have a favorable view of him, and it sounds like the difficulties were mainly "work" ones.

Regards.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2012, 10:05:03 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2012, 11:06:59 PM »

I can't imagine the Moscow Patriarchate ensuring the comfort in retirement of a hierarch it had retired for disciplinary issues - maybe I'm just projecting a Soviet mentality where it doesn't exist :-).
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2012, 11:34:14 PM »

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 Huh Ok... 
 
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2012, 12:13:07 AM »

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 Huh Ok... 
 

She is not even in communion with us, who cares.
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2012, 12:56:50 AM »

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 Huh Ok... 
 

She is not even in communion with us, who cares.

Hey, one of my dear friends is still in the OCA, and he is trying to get me back in.
He is like a big brother to me, so watch your back man.
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2012, 02:18:59 AM »

Axios Patriarch Kirill.

God be praised.

Maybe this can end well now for all concerned. I know my heart feels lighter seeing that Metropolitan Jonah and his welfare are not passed over in silence by His Holiness who is one of the few who has some influence to encourage a godly and fraternal tying off of these present troubles. May his voice be heard by those with ears to hear. May his brother primates similarly express their congratulations and beneficent hopes to our new Metropolitan and to our Holy Synod.

This simple letter is the best news I've seen since July.
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2012, 02:31:35 AM »

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 Huh Ok... 
 

She is not even in communion with us, who cares.

And some people don't understand the joys of kicking a dead horse.
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« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2012, 02:32:06 AM »

Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.
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« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2012, 02:33:19 AM »

The Third Rome vs. The Third Moscow.

This is pretty awesome, but not as much as a pay per view Putin vs. Netanyahu fight to death.
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« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2012, 03:10:49 AM »

Axios Patriarch Kirill.

God be praised.

Maybe this can end well now for all concerned. I know my heart feels lighter seeing that Metropolitan Jonah and his welfare are not passed over in silence by His Holiness who is one of the few who has some influence to encourage a godly and fraternal tying off of these present troubles. May his voice be heard by those with ears to hear. May his brother primates similarly express their congratulations and beneficent hopes to our new Metropolitan and to our Holy Synod.

This simple letter is the best news I've seen since July.

Amen.
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« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2012, 03:12:22 AM »

Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Agreed. Thanks for expressing my views so eloquently.
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« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2012, 11:04:51 AM »

Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Or the fact that he failed to disclose important information to the Synod about sexual abuse that was occurring, putting the whole OCA at risk of scandal and a lawsuit.
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« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2012, 11:20:32 AM »

Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Or the fact that he failed to disclose important information to the Synod about sexual abuse that was occurring, putting the whole OCA at risk of scandal and a lawsuit.

Pfft, details.
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2012, 11:57:02 AM »

Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Or the fact that he failed to disclose important information to the Synod about sexual abuse that was occurring, putting the whole OCA at risk of scandal and a lawsuit.

Pfft, details.

I think that sheenj has put his finger on it; I suspect that there were larger issues that were important to Moscow--issues that transcended whatever internal issues the OCA had. I think that +Jonah was important to them and I admire that they are showing the world that Moscow stands by her supporters.  
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« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2012, 12:12:57 PM »

Quote
No one has called +Jonah either a thief or a rapist. And can you not at least speak respectfully of the Moscow Patriarchate?

I think the point she is trying to get at is not that anyone has accused him of being a thief or rapist but that in her view clergy accused/associated with such onerous crimes have been treated with greater kindness and leniency than Metropolitan Jonah whose greatest failing synodally speaking is that he does not always play well with others.

Or the fact that he failed to disclose important information to the Synod about sexual abuse that was occurring, putting the whole OCA at risk of scandal and a lawsuit.

Pfft, details.

I think that sheenj has put his finger on it; I suspect that there were larger issues that were important to Moscow--issues that transcended whatever internal issues the OCA had. I think that +Jonah was important to them and I admire that they are showing the world that Moscow stands by her supporters.  

I think sheen's brief comment was meant as sarcasm.

Of course Metropolitan Jonah was important, as he was to everyone. His wellbeing and his family's should be respected and attended to. But that of course, doesn't mean that Moscow wants him back or that Moscow doesn't respect Metropolitan Tikhon or the Holy Synod.
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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2012, 12:40:59 PM »

Yeah, it was sarcasm.  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2012, 01:22:29 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.
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« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2012, 01:25:48 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?
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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2012, 01:33:24 PM »

I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?
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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2012, 01:39:54 PM »

I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.
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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2012, 01:48:37 PM »

No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.
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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2012, 02:18:15 PM »

Yeah, it was sarcasm.  Grin
And funny too, although I am not sure myself how much truth there is to the accusations. But nonetheless, my impression from Fr. Hopko and other bishops who I trust is that he had trouble working with others. I have a sense that Bishop Job would have felt the same way, but obviously how does one know that :/
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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2012, 03:07:35 PM »

No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2012, 03:13:47 PM »

No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

Devin,

This is a safe space. There are no judgements.

Please feel free to tell us how you truly feel.
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« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2012, 03:18:57 PM »

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.

Metropolitan Herman does not live at St. Tikhon's, and is not allowed to even set foot there.

There are so many ill-considered comments in various places about what a "retired bishop" or "monk" like Metropolitan Jonah should get from the Church.  Metropolitan Jonah is not retired, and His Beatitude has every right to expect an arrangement that affords due consideration to himself and his dependent family members.
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« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2012, 03:28:17 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

LOL.  Metropolitan Herman does not live in a cell.  He is not even allowed to go to St. Tikhon's.  He lives in a house and attends church at Holy Resurrection in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.
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« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2012, 03:37:42 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

LOL.  Metropolitan Herman does not live in a cell.  He is not even allowed to go to St. Tikhon's.  He lives in a house and attends church at Holy Resurrection in Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania.

Orual, I was speaking to statements by another member of this site who said he was a member of St Tikhons or at least was in the area. So I was speaking to if he was a member.

Thank God he isn't a monk at St Tikhons and isn't involved with the seminary either.
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« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2012, 03:40:22 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?
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« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2012, 03:43:09 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
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« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2012, 03:49:41 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?
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« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2012, 03:58:16 PM »

What's wrong with Met. Herman?
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« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2012, 04:00:51 PM »

What's wrong with Met. Herman?

Are you kidding? Where were you in the last 10 years?
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« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2012, 04:02:04 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.
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« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2012, 04:03:52 PM »

What's wrong with Met. Herman?

Are you kidding? Where were you in the last 10 years?

I'm not old enough to remember, so do you mind telling me what I missed?
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« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2012, 04:10:52 PM »

What's wrong with Met. Herman?

Are you kidding? Where were you in the last 10 years?

I'm not old enough to remember, so do you mind telling me what I missed?

Ah, I see you're an inquirer.

Well I'll say that you may want to wait to really read into all this because it really is not good and caused a lot of members of the OCA to either leave for other jurisdictions or even lose their faith entirely.

The short and ugly is on Wikipedia, again, I may wait for a while to read it if I were you, or just keep in mind that we are all humans and our leaders are just as fallible as we are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_scandal_in_the_Orthodox_Church_in_America
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« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2012, 04:11:26 PM »

We need to chill out here.

The fact that Met. Herman has submitted to his fate, rather than run off to some schismatic group or do something else, shows he at least has some remorse and acceptance for everything he's responsible for. For all we know, he might weep all day, every day over it; there's no way of knowing.

God will be his judge, and I'm sure that reality is awful enough for him to imagine. Why the need to carry on with this tantrum and these hypothetical idle threats? which he has surely heard worse than, will never read, and wouldn't care about if he did? Feel better?
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« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2012, 04:12:19 PM »

What's wrong with Met. Herman?

Are you kidding? Where were you in the last 10 years?

I'm not old enough to remember, so do you mind telling me what I missed?

Ah, I see you're an inquirer.

Well I'll say that you may want to wait to really read into all this because it really is not good and caused a lot of members of the OCA to either leave for other jurisdictions or even lose their faith entirely.

Oh, being a Dutchman I'll probably never even see an OCA parish in my life. Besides, it can hardly be worse than the scandals the RCC is facing.
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« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2012, 04:18:45 PM »

We need to chill out here.

The fact that Met. Herman has submitted to his fate, rather than run off to some schismatic group or do something else, shows he at least has some remorse and acceptance for everything he's responsible for. For all we know, he might weep all day, every day over it; there's no way of knowing.

God will be his judge, and I'm sure that reality is awful enough for him to imagine. Why the need to carry on with this tantrum and these hypothetical idle threats? which he has surely heard worse than, will never read, and wouldn't care about if he did? Feel better?

His deeds went far beyond just not disclosing the theft that was occurring. He failed to disclose things about himself that would have kept him from the Metropolitan position that Mr. Kondratick then used as blackmail against him.
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« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2012, 04:20:15 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.
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« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2012, 04:26:02 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.

And my HMO tells me laughter is the best medicine . . .
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« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2012, 04:39:33 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.

What did I say about Metropolitan Jonah?

Metropolitan Jonah is a good man who would make a good priest or abbot and a good confessor. However, he didn't make a good Metropolitan. His failings were administrative.
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« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2012, 04:43:47 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.
IMO, you just invalidated your Christian witness with that boastful judgment.
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« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2012, 05:16:19 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.

What did I say about Metropolitan Jonah?

Metropolitan Jonah is a good man who would make a good priest or abbot and a good confessor. However, he didn't make a good Metropolitan. His failings were administrative.

Speaking hypothetically, what would happen to you if the Synod retracted their statement re: Metropolitan Jonah?
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« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2012, 06:09:18 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Father,

I'm not sure that Moscow could not recognize +Jonah's situation, since he himself resigned.  I can't imagine any situation in which a patriarch would refuse to recognize the right of a bishop to resign voluntarily.  It does seem, however, that Moscow does have very real concerns about the current situation within the OCA and is making those clear.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2012, 06:10:41 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

He's not really at the monastery.  He's at a small house owned by the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania.  He has no involvement at the monastery and is forbidden even to attend Church there.  I'm not sure what your disagreement with the monastery is.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2012, 06:11:04 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

Of course you are!  Only a true Christian could say something like that.  "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like Metropolitan Herman..."

Please, spare us your angst-driven outrage.  I am still sore from laughing about what you wrote about poor old Metropolitan Jonah.  If you start in on Metropolitan Herman, I may vomit a kidney or something.

What did I say about Metropolitan Jonah?

Metropolitan Jonah is a good man who would make a good priest or abbot and a good confessor. However, he didn't make a good Metropolitan. His failings were administrative.

Speaking hypothetically, what would happen to you if the Synod retracted their statement re: Metropolitan Jonah?

What are you talking about? Metropolitan Jonah was removed because he withheld important information from the Holy Synod regarding sexual misconduct by a Priest, that has been proven as a fact. Between that, and the other things he did which were either unilateral or that were just disagreements with the Holy Synod, there wasn't anything inherently wrong with removing him.

As I've said, Metropolitan Jonah is a good man, just not a good Metropolitan.
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« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2012, 06:12:40 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

He's not really at the monastery.  He's at a small house owned by the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania.  He has no involvement at the monastery and is forbidden even to attend Church there.  I'm not sure what your disagreement with the monastery is.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Fr. John, if you read the earlier replies, and my own posts after this one, you'll clearly see that I was told that he was at the monastery or he was in the area. So I said that if, in fact, he was at the monastery, then that monastery wouldn't receive my support. Thank God though that he is forbidden from attending there.
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« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2012, 06:15:51 PM »

No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

Are you advocating that the OCA actually imprison Met. Herman?  He has to live somewhere.  He can't be put out on the street.  He seems to be living a very meager existence, without much money, much ability to travel, and is only allowed to attend one small parish about an hour away, and is forbidden from monastery grounds.  What are you advocating?

And I do believe that this is a Christian message board.  While I am no great fan of the former metropolitan's administration, if we are all to go live where we "deserve" to, they might have to build more than a few such cells.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2012, 06:16:16 PM »

My mistake for thinking he was there... I thought the house inquestion was on monastery grounds, but that is confirmed to not be the case.  Anyway, for my part, I have no problem with either St. Tikhon's or St. John's monasteries.  I hope that Metropolitan Jonah will find a monastery and resume his monastic calling, as many have already pointed out, which was his first calling and one that he appeared to thrive in.

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

He's not really at the monastery.  He's at a small house owned by the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania.  He has no involvement at the monastery and is forbidden even to attend Church there.  I'm not sure what your disagreement with the monastery is.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2012, 06:16:44 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

He's not really at the monastery.  He's at a small house owned by the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania.  He has no involvement at the monastery and is forbidden even to attend Church there.  I'm not sure what your disagreement with the monastery is.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Fr. John, if you read the earlier replies, and my own posts after this one, you'll clearly see that I was told that he was at the monastery or he was in the area. So I said that if, in fact, he was at the monastery, then that monastery wouldn't receive my support. Thank God though that he is forbidden from attending there.

The monastery I am sure thanks God as well now that they can benefit from your generous donations.

I just beat Halo 4 on Normal. An emotional roller-coaster and nearly brought tears. 343 Industries did a phenomenal job!!!

Didn't it just come out today? How much coffee did you have?  Shocked

Picked up my Pre-Order At about 11:30 and got home at around 1:30, been playing since almost 2:00 and finished it in about 6 hours.

(I am unemployed unfortunately)

Then again maybe not . . .

But I am sure the makers of Halo do appreciate your money.
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« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2012, 06:17:51 PM »

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.
How is your desire that a man suffer such punishment a Christian virtue?

I never said it was one, and honestly, I don't care. I wouldn't even kiss the man's hand, even if I were forced to serve with him. If he ever showed up at a parish I was at, I'd walk right out the front door and stay away till he was gone.
Then how are you able to call yourself a Christian?

What makes me not one? I'm more of one than he is.

The Desert Fathers are not mere pious nonsense and I would sincerely recommend giving them a read.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2012, 06:28:09 PM »

No, he's not involved with the seminary.

I also don't think it is very Christian to 'punish' the monastery just because Metropolitan Herman was consigned there after his humiliating removal as Primate.  He has kept quiet, not hired any lawyers, and not disrupted anyone's life.  He has not agitated or caused anyone in the OCA to even acknowledge his existence.  Why punish the monks for that?  Do they even have a choice?  I think not.

The monks at St. Tikhon's are not there to serve Met. Herman, but to live out their lives in repentance, depending on what little the OCA community provides to them.

Have a little charity...


I'm not exactly sure whether Met. Herman is on the grounds or merely nearby, but he is essentially in the area at least.

The monastery in Manton is not the senior monastery, which is why I did not mention it.  The monastery itself has had a schism, and so it is struggling right now.  Were the metropolitan to settle there, my thinking is that the most critical of sorts would consider it some kind of punishment or exile, which Moscow's letter infers would be contrary to tradition.  However, if the metropolitan were to choose to go their voluntarily, I would see no problem with that.  However, he does not seem to be making such desires known through those closest to him.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

If Metropolitan Herman is indeed at the monastery, then I definitely will not be donating anything to them.

He isn't involved with St. Tikhon's Seminary is he? God forbid.

Met. Herman deserves the darkest, coldest, leakiest cell they've got. Refusing to donate ensures he gets that. Or refusing to fund it may encourage him to leave the monastery.

Are you advocating that the OCA actually imprison Met. Herman?  He has to live somewhere.  He can't be put out on the street.  He seems to be living a very meager existence, without much money, much ability to travel, and is only allowed to attend one small parish about an hour away, and is forbidden from monastery grounds.  What are you advocating?

And I do believe that this is a Christian message board.  While I am no great fan of the former metropolitan's administration, if we are all to go live where we "deserve" to, they might have to build more than a few such cells.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Cell = the room of a Monk
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« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2012, 06:44:30 PM »

that has been proven as a fact.

I believe the word you are actually looking for is 'unsubstantiated accusation'. I realize in certain regions of the internet that is the definition of 'fact', but for most English-speakers there's an important difference between the two.
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« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2012, 06:49:33 PM »

that has been proven as a fact.

I believe the word you are actually looking for is 'unsubstantiated accusation'. I realize in certain regions of the internet that is the definition of 'fact', but for most English-speakers there's an important difference between the two.

Unless you're one of the idiots over on Monomakhos, it isn't an "unsubstantiated accusation". The Holy Synod didn't ask for his removal based on an "unsubstantiated accusation". Monomakhos is a trash website, full of idiots, don't read it and don't trust it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 06:50:11 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2012, 07:21:54 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.
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« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2012, 07:27:43 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:28:13 PM by gzt » Logged
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« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2012, 07:28:11 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
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« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2012, 07:29:34 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!
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« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2012, 07:30:20 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

gzt, you completely misunderstand my statemnent.

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.
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« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2012, 07:31:27 PM »


NVM!
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:35:05 PM by sheenj » Logged
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« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2012, 07:32:01 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
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« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2012, 07:34:23 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

NVM!

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.

I think you in turn misinterpreted him. I think he was referring to your previous comment on judging.

If he HAD been referring to that, he would have quoted that post. If he didn't, he should learn how to properly use the forums.

Either way, you all need to stop jumping into a conversation halfway and thinking you know what I'm talking about or what I'm saying. If you want to know the whole thing, go back and read from the beginning.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:34:50 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2012, 07:35:53 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

NVM!

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.

I think you in turn misinterpreted him. I think he was referring to your previous comment on judging.

If he HAD been referring to that, he would have quoted that post. If he didn't, he should learn how to properly use the forums.

Either way, you all need to stop jumping into a conversation halfway and thinking you know what I'm talking about or what I'm saying. If you want to know the whole thing, go back and read from the beginning.

Lol, yeah. I saw that two seconds after I posted.
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« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2012, 07:36:54 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

NVM!

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.

I think you in turn misinterpreted him. I think he was referring to your previous comment on judging.

If he HAD been referring to that, he would have quoted that post. If he didn't, he should learn how to properly use the forums.

Either way, you all need to stop jumping into a conversation halfway and thinking you know what I'm talking about or what I'm saying. If you want to know the whole thing, go back and read from the beginning.

Lol, yeah. I saw that two seconds after I posted.

alright no problem, sorry I snapped at you, but it really gets frustrating when it is clear when people reply before really reading the context of what they are replying to. Yes I know, I'm guilty of it as well.
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« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2012, 07:39:51 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2012, 07:56:37 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers. So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
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PeterTheAleut
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2012, 07:58:50 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 07:59:52 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
orthonorm
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« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2012, 08:02:18 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:02:36 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
88Devin12
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Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 4,999



« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2012, 08:02:40 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.
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orthonorm
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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2012, 08:06:35 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.

$fodazfulloishizstoopid
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88Devin12
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Jurisdiction: Antioch
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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2012, 08:07:24 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo

And what do you have to contribute to this discussion? Are you even Orthodox?

If you aren't Orthodox, your opinion doesn't even matter.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:07:53 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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Faith: Orthodox Christian
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2012, 08:07:40 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.
If you cannot or will not cite those authorities whose support you claim for your opinions, then please don't say that your opinions have their support. If you insist on doing so, then don't be surprised if some refuse to believe you and choose to recognize your opinions merely for what they are: your opinions.
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2012, 08:09:10 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.

$fodazfulloishizstoopid
Orthonorm, if you keep posting such cryptic statements, I'm going to have to make a formal request that you post English translations.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:09:48 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
orthonorm
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« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2012, 08:12:37 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo

And what do you have to contribute to this discussion?

The nearly impossible task of making less sense than you.

Get back on your game console.

You earned it.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:12:56 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
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« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2012, 08:15:47 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

Do you think I keep track of the people I hear or read? I don't care enough to do that. If I were to keep track of everything I've ever listened to or read I'd have boxes full of references, which would be completely stupid.

$fodazfulloishizstoopid
Orthonorm, if you keep posting such cryptic statements, I'm going to have to make a formal request that you post English translations.

Sorry, thought people did that whole internet / social media talk thing around here. Like where cats talk and stuff.

Anyway:

$ = pending intellectual property

fodazfulloishizstoopid = folders full of stuff is stupid.

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« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2012, 08:16:29 PM »

Cell = the room of a Monk

I do find it amusing that you, in your extreme youth, get to educate a priest who has actual knowledge of Metropolitan Herman's whereabouts and circumstances, about the precise meaning of his hypothesized abode.

gzt, you completely misunderstand my statemnent.

The Priest was asking if I wanted Metropolitan Herman imprisoned.

I assumed that he was misunderstanding what I was saying when I said he deserved a dark, cold cell. That could either be taken as a prison cell or a monks cell, and I was clarifying that I was referring to a monk's cell.

Don't just read a snippet of what I've said and assume you know the whole context.

I read the whole thread. I read it all. I commented on the irony of your being able to correct a priest on the meaning of a monastic cell - your thought on where Metropolitan Herman ended up - when the priest had direct knowledge of where, precisely, Metropolitan Herman was. HTH. HAND.
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« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2012, 08:17:43 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo

And what do you have to contribute to this discussion?

The nearly impossible task of making less sense than you.

Get back on your game console.

You earned it.

I love how you ignored the last part of my reply.

Why for God's sake haven't you admitted to either being Orthodox or not being Orthodox?

Seriously, I wish this website required faith tags.
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« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2012, 08:22:06 PM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Ugh, Metropolitan Herman doesn't even deserve that. Is he really at St. Tikhon's Monastery? Well, remind me never to visit there. As long as he is there, I'll make sure to never visit there or donate anything to there.

Why not allow Metropolitan Jonah to return to the monastery he himself founded?

What happened to humbleness and respect for other human beings? Despite their mistakes/errors. You are not perfect, neither am I or anyone else. Pray for him, don`t judge him.

We have every right and duty as Christian to judge the morals and behavior. We have no right to judge their salvation.
I don't think this is quite the right interpretation of the Gospel. If it were so, I'd have a few things to say to you. Instead, I just have a few passive-aggressive and snarky comments. Like this one!

It is most certainly the right interpretation of that Gospel. The Protestants are idiots and heretics and cannot properly interpret the scriptures, they are the ones who go strictly by "don't judge". The Orthodox interpretation is that the passage clearly refers to judgement of one's salvation, which we cannot do. It is completely okay to judge morals and behavior.
Devin, once again I think you really need to calm down. Once again you're promoting your own interpretation of Scripture to the level of Orthodox doctrine.

No i am not, this is something that has been supported by other Priests and Orthodox speaker/writers.
Can you name them? Can you cite those of their works that support your opinion?

So don't you dare tell me to calm down and don't you dare tell me I am promoting my own interpretation. I know very well what I am saying and I know very well that what I'm saying is supported by others in the canonical Orthodox world.
Devin, your words are full of anger and defiance, traits unbecoming a Christian. I therefore dare to tell you to calm down.

$haloissrslyyo

And what do you have to contribute to this discussion?

The nearly impossible task of making less sense than you.

Get back on your game console.

You earned it.

I love how you ignored the last part of my reply.

Why for God's sake haven't you admitted to either being Orthodox or not being Orthodox?

Seriously, I wish this website required faith tags.

Do you frequently find yourself wishing you had greater power over things you cannot at the moment control?
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« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2012, 08:26:07 PM »

Do you frequently find yourself wishing you had greater power over things you cannot at the moment control?
I like how he thinks he has a right and duty to know as a result of your input of a couple sentences into a conversation.
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« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2012, 09:30:38 PM »

that has been proven as a fact.

I believe the word you are actually looking for is 'unsubstantiated accusation'. I realize in certain regions of the internet that is the definition of 'fact', but for most English-speakers there's an important difference between the two.

Unless you're one of the idiots over on Monomakhos, it isn't an "unsubstantiated accusation". The Holy Synod didn't ask for his removal based on an "unsubstantiated accusation". Monomakhos is a trash website, full of idiots, don't read it and don't trust it.

But they are unsubstantiated accusations.
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« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2012, 10:57:44 PM »

Couple of points:

1. Many bad things happened in and to the OCA on Metropolitan Herman's watch, for which he was removed from office. He has done what was asked of him since so far as I know. He is old, infirm, and it is my understanding he is now fully or mostly wheelchair bound. Whatever sins he committed he is paying for in his reputation and in his body. When God was ready to send fire from heaven on Sodom and Gemorah, Abraham bargained with God for mercy. When God was ready to destroy most of Israel and start over with Moses, he offered himself to be destroyed that they might be spared.   Wanting to further humiliate and defame Met. Herman is simply inconsistent with the Christian faith. The point of chastisement in the Church is twofold, to serve as a warning to those who would sin against the Church in similar fashion, and to keep open the opportunity of repentance and reconciliation to God and to the Church, to give the particular sinner a mode of repentance for the salvation of his soul. The aim is not his destruction, but his healing.

Even though I agree his removal was just, were I with him I would still ask his blessing, kiss his hand, and ask for his prayers. And if I lived near, and he would have me, I would gladly visit him from time to time, help him with his needs, give him a ride to church, etc.  It is shameful to kick a man when he is down, more shameful to take joy or pride in it. Heaven forbid that any of us should not want Met. Herman's final years to be peaceful ones, in the presence of those who love him and remember him before the Lord.

2. RE: facts vs unsubstantiated allegations. I have a question. If a person is supposedly raped yet vigorously and persistently denies there was a rape…if those who know her firmly assert her denial is not a ploy or a falsehood, if there is no medical evidence of a rape…if the rape exists only in rumor and malicious gossip, and not in fact, then how can there be a coverup of what did not happen? And if there is an "official" documented accusation of covering up something that is a fiction, how does this fiction transmogrify mirabile dictu into a fact?  Does an "official" accusation have the power to confect a fact from a fiction? If it does not then how is this putative fact, not actually what others have labeled it, namely, an unsubstantiated (literally nothing standing under… iow no support) accusation.
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« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2012, 12:08:58 AM »

Couple of points:

1. Many bad things happened in and to the OCA on Metropolitan Herman's watch, for which he was removed from office. He has done what was asked of him since so far as I know. He is old, infirm, and it is my understanding he is now fully or mostly wheelchair bound. Whatever sins he committed he is paying for in his reputation and in his body. When God was ready to send fire from heaven on Sodom and Gemorah, Abraham bargained with God for mercy. When God was ready to destroy most of Israel and start over with Moses, he offered himself to be destroyed that they might be spared.   Wanting to further humiliate and defame Met. Herman is simply inconsistent with the Christian faith. The point of chastisement in the Church is twofold, to serve as a warning to those who would sin against the Church in similar fashion, and to keep open the opportunity of repentance and reconciliation to God and to the Church, to give the particular sinner a mode of repentance for the salvation of his soul. The aim is not his destruction, but his healing.

Even though I agree his removal was just, were I with him I would still ask his blessing, kiss his hand, and ask for his prayers. And if I lived near, and he would have me, I would gladly visit him from time to time, help him with his needs, give him a ride to church, etc.  It is shameful to kick a man when he is down, more shameful to take joy or pride in it. Heaven forbid that any of us should not want Met. Herman's final years to be peaceful ones, in the presence of those who love him and remember him before the Lord.

2. RE: facts vs unsubstantiated allegations. I have a question. If a person is supposedly raped yet vigorously and persistently denies there was a rape…if those who know her firmly assert her denial is not a ploy or a falsehood, if there is no medical evidence of a rape…if the rape exists only in rumor and malicious gossip, and not in fact, then how can there be a coverup of what did not happen? And if there is an "official" documented accusation of covering up something that is a fiction, how does this fiction transmogrify mirabile dictu into a fact?  Does an "official" accusation have the power to confect a fact from a fiction? If it does not then how is this putative fact, not actually what others have labeled it, namely, an unsubstantiated (literally nothing standing under… iow no support) accusation.
Not to disagree with your analogy, but- have you never read hardcore, militant feminists? Every heterosexual sexual act is rape (committed against a women, of course), even with consent.

You can either change fiction into a fact by redefining what something means until it no longer has meaning or by simply hammering home those points that fit within your definition of the facts while rejecting everything else. Welcome to the post-modern world.
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« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2012, 05:24:48 AM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.



Father, thank you for your level-headed insight into this. This is exactly what I was thinking.
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« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2012, 06:44:21 AM »

Not to disagree with your analogy, but- have you never read hardcore, militant feminists? Every heterosexual sexual act is rape (committed against a women, of course), even with consent.

You can either change fiction into a fact by redefining what something means until it no longer has meaning or by simply hammering home those points that fit within your definition of the facts while rejecting everything else. Welcome to the post-modern world.

You can't welcome anyone to place you are not at yourself.
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« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2012, 01:38:10 PM »

Not to disagree with your analogy, but- have you never read hardcore, militant feminists? Every heterosexual sexual act is rape (committed against a women, of course), even with consent.

You can either change fiction into a fact by redefining what something means until it no longer has meaning or by simply hammering home those points that fit within your definition of the facts while rejecting everything else. Welcome to the post-modern world.

You can't welcome anyone to place you are not at yourself.

I've got a very nice beach house there.
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« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2012, 04:13:17 PM »

Just thought I should note that Metropolitan Jonah's little sister died this morning.  There is a thread in the Prayer Forum for her.  She was chrismated Orthodox last Sunday.
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« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2012, 04:36:33 PM »

Memory Eternal. God.rest.her soul. +
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« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2012, 08:07:27 PM »

Memory Eternal.
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« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2012, 08:18:29 PM »

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2012, 04:53:31 AM »

Just thought I should note that Metropolitan Jonah's little sister died this morning.  There is a thread in the Prayer Forum for her.  She was chrismated Orthodox last Sunday.

May her memory be eternal.

I hope and pray that Met. Jonah is allowed by the OCA synod to celebrate her funeral services at the local Orthodox Church. Going all the way to Father Gregory's church would be extremely costly. Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #98 on: November 19, 2012, 08:04:01 AM »

Just thought I should note that Metropolitan Jonah's little sister died this morning.  There is a thread in the Prayer Forum for her.  She was chrismated Orthodox last Sunday.

May her memory be eternal.

I hope and pray that Met. Jonah is allowed by the OCA synod to celebrate her funeral services at the local Orthodox Church. Going all the way to Father Gregory's church would be extremely costly. Lord have mercy.

This is just a guess, I don't know anything for sure, but Laurie's funeral will likely take place in a ROCOR church.  Metr. Jonah is freer to serve in ROCOR, and his sister would almost certainly prefer a ROCOR church to an OCA one.

I have no idea if Vladyka plans to serve her funeral or not.  His parents just lost their only daughter...
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« Reply #99 on: November 19, 2012, 08:08:51 AM »

Metr. Jonah is freer to serve in ROCOR

Provided he has permission from Metr. Tikhon.
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« Reply #100 on: November 19, 2012, 08:10:27 AM »

Metr. Jonah is freer to serve in ROCOR

Provided he has permission from Metr. Tikhon.

He would only need a blessing from Metropolitan Hilarion, as far as I know.
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« Reply #101 on: November 19, 2012, 11:05:12 AM »

Metr. Jonah is freer to serve in ROCOR

Provided he has permission from Metr. Tikhon.

He would only need a blessing from Metropolitan Hilarion, as far as I know.

No, he will need the blessing of the jurisdiction under which he serves, to serve in another jurisdiction also.  I.e. when a priest travels, he needs the blessing of his bishop to serve elsewhere, and the blessing of the bishop who is the authority in the jurisdiction in which he intends to serve.
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« Reply #102 on: November 19, 2012, 11:35:36 AM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

Does anyone else find this (boldfaced text) a little disturbing? Webster's defines "full-fledged" as "fully developed, total, complete, having attained complete status." To what degree are relations between the OCA and other Local Orthodox Churches incomplete?
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« Reply #103 on: November 19, 2012, 11:37:32 AM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

Does anyone else find this (boldfaced text) a little disturbing? Webster's defines "full-fledged" as "fully developed, total, complete, having attained complete status." To what degree are relations between the OCA and other Local Orthodox Churches incomplete?

They don't all recognize its autocephaly.

In practice that's not all that important; they all recognize the OCA as part of the Church, but it's still an issue.
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« Reply #104 on: November 19, 2012, 11:42:25 AM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

Does anyone else find this (boldfaced text) a little disturbing? Webster's defines "full-fledged" as "fully developed, total, complete, having attained complete status." To what degree are relations between the OCA and other Local Orthodox Churches incomplete?

They don't all recognize its autocephaly.

In practice that's not all that important; they all recognize the OCA as part of the Church, but it's still an issue.

So those Local Orthodox Churches that do not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA recognized it at one time? That recognition of autocephaly is what must be restored?
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« Reply #105 on: November 19, 2012, 11:49:10 AM »

^No. But the phrasing is confusing. Perhaps someone fluent in Russian could read the Russian language  posting of this letter on Mospat and determine if there is a translation nuance at play here.
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« Reply #106 on: November 19, 2012, 11:51:37 AM »

I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Thank you, Father - what a relief! I was beginning to wonder if I was reading the same letter everyone else was. Or if I had had a stroke or other sudden cognitive impairment.  Grin
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« Reply #107 on: November 19, 2012, 11:55:40 AM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

Does anyone else find this (boldfaced text) a little disturbing? Webster's defines "full-fledged" as "fully developed, total, complete, having attained complete status." To what degree are relations between the OCA and other Local Orthodox Churches incomplete?

They don't all recognize its autocephaly.

In practice that's not all that important; they all recognize the OCA as part of the Church, but it's still an issue.

So those Local Orthodox Churches that do not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA recognized it at one time? That recognition of autocephaly is what must be restored?
No. To my knowledge, the other local Orthodox Churches never recognized our autocephaly.
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« Reply #108 on: November 19, 2012, 11:59:21 AM »

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

I am very grateful that the Third Rome has spoken.

 Huh Ok... 
 

She is not even in communion with us, who cares.

What a completely misguided thing to say ...
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« Reply #109 on: November 19, 2012, 12:05:46 PM »

Dear Katherine,

You're a bit too young to be having strokes!

The problem we have is that there are too many folks trying to 'spin' a narrative that becomes more and more impossible to support.

For example, if Moscow had the same information that most of the 'conspiracy theorists' have regarding the Holy Synod's action (and the subsequent letter explaining the Synod's action and the circumstances regarding His Beatitude's retirement), this letter would not have been issued... unless the same theorists are will to condemn not only the OCA's entire Holy Synod, but also the Church of Moscow.


I think most of the commentators have missed the point of the letter.

This letter confirms that Metropolitan Jonah was properly removed from his throne.  This ends any argument regarding his restoration.

Moscow is not sanctioning any type of 'lawyering up,' but rather urging a settlement that does not involve a willful humiliation of a former First Hierarch.  Were that to happen, the Orthodox world would go into panic mode (let's think, how many First Hierarchs are facing mounting criticism?).  One only need look at the Bulgarian situation to understand how hesitant Synods are in removing even the most profoundly incapacitated senior bishops.

Moscow is also not, by this letter, telling the OCA to give him millions of dollars.  The typical fate of a retired bishop is a nice apartment in a monastery.  No travel expenses, family & friends plan, etc.  Metropolitan Jonah never stopped being a monk, and a monk dies to the world.  His natural place would be at St. Tikhon's Monastery, the senior monastery of the OCA, along side his predecessor, Metropolitan Herman.


Thank you, Father - what a relief! I was beginning to wonder if I was reading the same letter everyone else was. Or if I had had a stroke or other sudden cognitive impairment.  Grin
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« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2012, 12:12:59 PM »

Metr. Jonah is freer to serve in ROCOR

Provided he has permission from Metr. Tikhon.

He would only need a blessing from Metropolitan Hilarion, as far as I know.

No, he will need the blessing of the jurisdiction under which he serves, to serve in another jurisdiction also.  I.e. when a priest travels, he needs the blessing of his bishop to serve elsewhere, and the blessing of the bishop who is the authority in the jurisdiction in which he intends to serve.

But Metropolitan Jonah is not a priest, and he is not under the omophorion of Metropolitan Tikhon or any other bishop, so the analogy does not apply.

The situation is actually canonically ambiguous. Some would certainly argue that Apostolic canon XXXIV implies that Met. Jonah would need Met. Tikhon's permission to transfer to a different synod--but on the other hand, the OCA has been quite clear that since his resignation, Met. Jonah is *not* actually a member of the synod so it's decidedly unclear that that canon currently applies to him. And if we were actually geographically organized as the canons envision, then Metropolitan Jonah could certainly not excercise his episcopal office in North America without the permission of the synod (and Metropolitan) of North America but we all know how that works in actual practice.

For diplomatic reasons, it is highly unlikely (at least at the present time when everybody is doing a decent job of getting along under the auspices of the North American Assembly) that any other synod would take in Metropolitan Jonah without at least tacit approval by the OCA. But there's no clear canonical reason they couldn't, nor would the OCA have much recourse if they did.
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« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2012, 12:20:57 PM »

But Metropolitan Jonah is not a priest, and he is not under the omophorion of Metropolitan Tikhon or any other bishop, so the analogy does not apply.

Wrong. All ordained people are under the authority of the dioceasan bishop and they need his blessing to serve outside their diocese. That includes readers, subdeacons, deacons, presbyters, vicar bishops and also retired priests. Retired priests are not vagantes. They have to be assigned to the diocese if they want to serve.
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« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2012, 12:25:29 PM »

The modern practice has been that retired hierarchs are still under the supervision of the Holy Synod.  For example, Metropolitan Herman has been told where he must live and where he can go or not go (I just found all this out recently thanks to fellow posters).  But, this is also the practice in Russia, where the OCA draws most of its traditions.

It is against our tradition for anyone to be the 'Lone Ranger.'  We are all accountable to someone else, and that accountability always emanates from a Synod.  To think that his retirement ends his accountability is simply unimaginable from an Orthodox perspective.  That certainly does not work with priests, I can tell you that.


Metr. Jonah is freer to serve in ROCOR

Provided he has permission from Metr. Tikhon.

He would only need a blessing from Metropolitan Hilarion, as far as I know.

No, he will need the blessing of the jurisdiction under which he serves, to serve in another jurisdiction also.  I.e. when a priest travels, he needs the blessing of his bishop to serve elsewhere, and the blessing of the bishop who is the authority in the jurisdiction in which he intends to serve.

But Metropolitan Jonah is not a priest, and he is not under the omophorion of Metropolitan Tikhon or any other bishop, so the analogy does not apply.

The situation is actually canonically ambiguous. Some would certainly argue that Apostolic canon XXXIV implies that Met. Jonah would need Met. Tikhon's permission to transfer to a different synod--but on the other hand, the OCA has been quite clear that since his resignation, Met. Jonah is *not* actually a member of the synod so it's decidedly unclear that that canon currently applies to him. And if we were actually geographically organized as the canons envision, then Metropolitan Jonah could certainly not excercise his episcopal office in North America without the permission of the synod (and Metropolitan) of North America but we all know how that works in actual practice.

For diplomatic reasons, it is highly unlikely (at least at the present time when everybody is doing a decent job of getting along under the auspices of the North American Assembly) that any other synod would take in Metropolitan Jonah without at least tacit approval by the OCA. But there's no clear canonical reason they couldn't, nor would the OCA have much recourse if they did.

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« Reply #113 on: November 19, 2012, 12:29:37 PM »

Does the way that the ROCOR treated the Entrance of the Theotokos women's monastery not indicate that the ROCOR would not be happy to accept him?
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« Reply #114 on: November 19, 2012, 12:33:46 PM »

The problem we have is that there are too many folks trying to 'spin' a narrative that becomes more and more impossible to support.

For example, if Moscow had the same information that most of the 'conspiracy theorists' have regarding the Holy Synod's action (and the subsequent letter explaining the Synod's action and the circumstances regarding His Beatitude's retirement), this letter would not have been issued... [/font][/size]

It seems the pro-Jonah folks are not the only ones trying to spin what amounts to a basic formality. Even if the most torrid conspiracy theories were true, they do not amount to anything that would cause one Autocephalous Church to cut ties with another Autocephalous Church (e.g., public teaching of heresy, or interference in the domain of another autocephalous Church). And unless the MP was ready to exercise the 'nuclear option' of excommunicating the OCA (or trying to revoke its autocephaly), then a formal letter from one Presiding Hierarch to another was going to be issued. There's nothing in that to indicate whether the MP thinks the OCA did a good thing or a bad thing--just basic recognition that the OCA did a thing (removed a Metropolitan and elected a new one) that as an autocephalous Church is it's own business.
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« Reply #115 on: November 19, 2012, 12:34:16 PM »

As I understand it, ROCOR is going through immense financial difficulties.  Jordanville is in need, as is their New York cathedral.  I'm not entirely sure that ROCOR is in a position to take on the financial burden of a retired metropolitan unless he's willing to merely take a cell in a monastery.

Does the way that the ROCOR treated the Entrance of the Theotokos women's monastery not indicate that the ROCOR would not be happy to accept him?
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« Reply #116 on: November 19, 2012, 12:45:30 PM »

Dear Witega,

Given all the hierarchical visits from Russia in recent memory, one can hardly reduce the relationship between Moscow and the OCA to be one of mere 'formality.' 

Moscow would also not stand by while the OCA removes its First Hierarch without cause, nor would it tolerate his insult in retirement.  This is a delicate matter, because Patriarch Kirill is well-aware that such a habit could spread.  If Moscow thought the OCA was out of control, it would swoop in to prevent such a precedence from taking hold.

This is not merely a matter of local discipline, but ecclesiology: when a Holy Synod 'attacks' its Primate (in office or retired) with 'false' charges, you have a pretty big scandal on your hands.  Moscow is demanding that Metropolitan Jonah's dignity be respected in retirement, and that's not a mere formality to them.


The problem we have is that there are too many folks trying to 'spin' a narrative that becomes more and more impossible to support.

For example, if Moscow had the same information that most of the 'conspiracy theorists' have regarding the Holy Synod's action (and the subsequent letter explaining the Synod's action and the circumstances regarding His Beatitude's retirement), this letter would not have been issued... [/font][/size]

It seems the pro-Jonah folks are not the only ones trying to spin what amounts to a basic formality. Even if the most torrid conspiracy theories were true, they do not amount to anything that would cause one Autocephalous Church to cut ties with another Autocephalous Church (e.g., public teaching of heresy, or interference in the domain of another autocephalous Church). And unless the MP was ready to exercise the 'nuclear option' of excommunicating the OCA (or trying to revoke its autocephaly), then a formal letter from one Presiding Hierarch to another was going to be issued. There's nothing in that to indicate whether the MP thinks the OCA did a good thing or a bad thing--just basic recognition that the OCA did a thing (removed a Metropolitan and elected a new one) that as an autocephalous Church is it's own business.
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« Reply #117 on: November 19, 2012, 12:45:58 PM »

The OCA website has published a letter sent by Patriarch Kirill of Moscow to Metropolitan Tikhon of the OCA.

OCA - Headline News - Metropolitan Tikhon receives greetings from Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, Bulgarian Diocese

The most relevant portion reads:

Quote
I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

Not only is this letter to Met. Tikhon a slap in the face telling the OCA to get their own house in order, but also Patriarch Kirill asks the OCA to "make comfortable" the life of Metropolitan Jonah. With his sister seriously ill and his aging parents, Metropolitan Jonah should be shown compassion. Met. Jonah is neither a thief nor rapist.

Wow. The third Rome has spoken. Praise the Lord.

Does anyone else find this (boldfaced text) a little disturbing? Webster's defines "full-fledged" as "fully developed, total, complete, having attained complete status." To what degree are relations between the OCA and other Local Orthodox Churches incomplete?

They don't all recognize its autocephaly.

In practice that's not all that important; they all recognize the OCA as part of the Church, but it's still an issue.

So those Local Orthodox Churches that do not recognize the autocephaly of the OCA recognized it at one time? That recognition of autocephaly is what must be restored?
No. To my knowledge, the other local Orthodox Churches never recognized our autocephaly.
Russia, Georgia, Bulgaria, Poland and the Czech and Slovak Lands have recognized the autocephaly.

Antioch and Serbia have recognized the jurisdiction of Russia over the canonical territory of the OCA, and the roots of their own jurisdiction in the same territory coming from the Russian.

Albania has been neutral, although the OCA's Diocese of New England gave birth to the Church of Albania.

Romania has its own problems with recognizing no one's jurisdiction outside Romania.

Only Constantinople, Alexandria, Jerusalem, Cyprus and the Church of Greece (i.e. the "Greek Church") have opposed the OCA's autocephaly. But then, all them except perhaps Cyprus at one time or another has opposed their ethnarch's canon 28 take on this, by setting up their own jurisdiction in the "barbarian lands" here.
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« Reply #118 on: November 19, 2012, 12:47:32 PM »

Dear Witega,

Given all the hierarchical visits from Russia in recent memory, one can hardly reduce the relationship between Moscow and the OCA to be one of mere 'formality.' 

Moscow would also not stand by while the OCA removes its First Hierarch without cause, nor would it tolerate his insult in retirement.  This is a delicate matter, because Patriarch Kirill is well-aware that such a habit could spread.  If Moscow thought the OCA was out of control, it would swoop in to prevent such a precedence from taking hold.

This is not merely a matter of local discipline, but ecclesiology: when a Holy Synod 'attacks' its Primate (in office or retired) with 'false' charges, you have a pretty big scandal on your hands.  Moscow is demanding that Metropolitan Jonah's dignity be respected in retirement, and that's not a mere formality to them.


The problem we have is that there are too many folks trying to 'spin' a narrative that becomes more and more impossible to support.

For example, if Moscow had the same information that most of the 'conspiracy theorists' have regarding the Holy Synod's action (and the subsequent letter explaining the Synod's action and the circumstances regarding His Beatitude's retirement), this letter would not have been issued... [/font][/size]

It seems the pro-Jonah folks are not the only ones trying to spin what amounts to a basic formality. Even if the most torrid conspiracy theories were true, they do not amount to anything that would cause one Autocephalous Church to cut ties with another Autocephalous Church (e.g., public teaching of heresy, or interference in the domain of another autocephalous Church). And unless the MP was ready to exercise the 'nuclear option' of excommunicating the OCA (or trying to revoke its autocephaly), then a formal letter from one Presiding Hierarch to another was going to be issued. There's nothing in that to indicate whether the MP thinks the OCA did a good thing or a bad thing--just basic recognition that the OCA did a thing (removed a Metropolitan and elected a new one) that as an autocephalous Church is it's own business.
Yes, this is nothing more than Constantinople's involvement in the recent deposition of the Patriarch of Jerusalem.
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« Reply #119 on: November 19, 2012, 12:50:47 PM »

The modern practice has been that retired hierarchs are still under the supervision of the Holy Synod.  For example, Metropolitan Herman has been told where he must live and where he can go or not go (I just found all this out recently thanks to fellow posters).  But, this is also the practice in Russia, where the OCA draws most of its traditions.

And less than 20 years ago, when ROCOR-OCA relationships were not so good, the OCA accepted as a 'retired archbishop' a man who's last canonical status was 'suspended ROCOR deacon'. And who certainly did not have a canonical release from ROCOR. As I already remarked, in today's era of good relationships, I can't see any synod taking Metropolitan Jonah over the objections of the OCA--no one man is worth disrupting the progress we've made. But there is no formal rule that bars the MP/ROCOR from taking in Metropolitan Jonah. And if they did, the OCA would not have any effective recourse--any more than they have been able to limit Metropolitan Jonah's concelebrating in ROCOR churches even while they do limit what OCA churches he can attend and serve in.

Quote
It is against our tradition for anyone to be the 'Lone Ranger.'

No one's talking about "the Lone Ranger". The question was, could the *synod* of ROCOR (or the MP) take in Metropolitan Jonah.

Quote
That certainly does not work with priests, I can tell you that.

Bishops are not priests.


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« Reply #120 on: November 19, 2012, 01:05:47 PM »

And less than 20 years ago, when ROCOR-OCA relationships were not so good, the OCA accepted as a 'retired archbishop' a man who's last canonical status was 'suspended ROCOR deacon'.

There is no analogy. 20 years ago the OCA and ROCOR as close as today they are with Eastern Catholics.

Quote
Bishops are not priests.

They are. And non-dioceasan bishops are subject to their dioceasan bishops (and the dioceasan bishops are subject to their synods). We are not Protestant where every minister does whatever he wants to.
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« Reply #121 on: November 19, 2012, 01:23:17 PM »

Dear Witega,

Given all the hierarchical visits from Russia in recent memory, one can hardly reduce the relationship between Moscow and the OCA to be one of mere 'formality.'

I didn't call the relationship between Moscow and the OCA a 'formality.' I called the little half-page letter of congratulations a formality. If you take out the cautionary sentence about relations with other Churches and dealing with 'his predecessor', the letter is pure boiler-plate for what the MP sends to any new presiding hieararch (see for example the same letter sent recently to the new Patriarch of Serbia--remove the parts specific to the history of Serbia and remove the one aforementioned sentence from the letter to Metropolitan Tikhon and they are basically the same letter).


Quote
Moscow would also not stand by while the OCA removes its First Hierarch without cause, nor would it tolerate his insult in retirement.  This is a delicate matter, because Patriarch Kirill is well-aware that such a habit could spread.  If Moscow thought the OCA was out of control, it would swoop in to prevent such a precedence from taking hold.

This is not merely a matter of local discipline, but ecclesiology: when a Holy Synod 'attacks' its Primate (in office or retired) with 'false' charges, you have a pretty big scandal on your hands.  Moscow is demanding that Metropolitan Jonah's dignity be respected in retirement, and that's not a mere formality to them.[/font][/size]

I have no idea what you are basing this on. The only way Moscow could 'swoop in' would be to attempt to revoke the OCA's autocephaly. And I say 'attempt' because there is no mechanism by which they could actually do so--if the majority, or even a significant minority, of the bishops of the OCA Synod refused to accept Moscow's authority to do that and continued to operate as an autocephalous Church (a certainty if you look at the attitude towards the autocephaly expressed by some of our bishops as well as posters here from the old OCA heartland in the NE) the only options would be a for Moscow to accept a humuliating defeat and back down or escalate to schism. Again, even if we assume that the very worst conspiracy theories are true (which, btw, I don't), there is nothing here which is worth either result to Moscow. Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on.

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« Reply #122 on: November 19, 2012, 01:38:15 PM »

And less than 20 years ago, when ROCOR-OCA relationships were not so good, the OCA accepted as a 'retired archbishop' a man who's last canonical status was 'suspended ROCOR deacon'.

There is no analogy. 20 years ago the OCA and ROCOR as close as today they are with Eastern Catholics.

Not true. Or even close to true. I was in the OCA at that time and knew many clergy in both the OCA and ROCOR (my daughter's godfather was (and is) a deacon in ROCOR) not to mention laity who were OCA or ROCOR or attended parishes in both jurisdictions on a regular basis. With the full blessing of my OCA bishop, I communed in ROCOR churches many times while traveling, and saw the obverse as well. Yes, there was acrimony and yes there were formal rules against concelebration. But there was never any question about whether each side was Orthodox. The OCA monastery 'St. John of Shang-hai and San Francisco' was established in this same period.

Quote
Bishops are not priests.

They are. And non-dioceasan bishops are subject to their dioceasan bishops (and the dioceasan bishops are subject to their synods). We are not Protestant where every minister does whatever he wants to.
[/quote]

sigh.
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« Reply #123 on: November 19, 2012, 02:10:08 PM »

Witega: "Bishops and Metropolitans and even Patriarchs have been removed under decidedly questionable circumstances before but the Church moves on."

I think I've heard more of this from the West and South (ironically) than from the Northeast. I wish everyone could just get over it. We all loved Met. Jonah but he's not going to be suddenly reinstated, and he'll definitely be taken care of. There are so many in the OCA that wish him well it should not even be an issue. It's a moot point!
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« Reply #124 on: November 19, 2012, 05:01:11 PM »

^No. But the phrasing is confusing. Perhaps someone fluent in Russian could read the Russian language  posting of this letter on Mospat and determine if there is a translation nuance at play here.

I believe this is it in Russian. Have at it.

Quote
Изволением полноты Православной Церкви в Америке на Вас возложена высокая ответственность за будущее юнейшей из Поместных Православных Церквей, переживающей в последние годы непростой период своей истории. Надеюсь, что усилиями Вашего Блаженства будут восстановлены полноценные связи Американской Церкви с другими Поместными Православными Церквами, обретены мир и согласие внутри нее, достойно обустроено дальнейшее бытие Вашего предшественника на Вашингтонской  митрополичьей кафедре.

English here.

Quote
By the will of the plenitude of the Orthodox Church in America, a high responsibility has been placed on you for the future of the youngest Local Orthodox Church, which has experienced a difficult time in her history in recent years. I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

The pertinent text, according to Google Translate, appears to be "будут восстановлены полноценные связи," translated as "will restore full-fledged relations."
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« Reply #125 on: November 19, 2012, 05:09:46 PM »

^No. But the phrasing is confusing. Perhaps someone fluent in Russian could read the Russian language  posting of this letter on Mospat and determine if there is a translation nuance at play here.

I believe this is it in Russian. Have at it.

Quote
Изволением полноты Православной Церкви в Америке на Вас возложена высокая ответственность за будущее юнейшей из Поместных Православных Церквей, переживающей в последние годы непростой период своей истории. Надеюсь, что усилиями Вашего Блаженства будут восстановлены полноценные связи Американской Церкви с другими Поместными Православными Церквами, обретены мир и согласие внутри нее, достойно обустроено дальнейшее бытие Вашего предшественника на Вашингтонской  митрополичьей кафедре.

English here.

Quote
By the will of the plenitude of the Orthodox Church in America, a high responsibility has been placed on you for the future of the youngest Local Orthodox Church, which has experienced a difficult time in her history in recent years. I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

The pertinent text, according to Google Translate, appears to be "будут восстановлены полноценные связи" translated as "will restore full-fledged relations."

I was wondering if we have any Russian speakers here who could give this a go. I tried Google, Babylon and a few other online services and I got gibberish for the entirety - but as stated with the phrase by Google.
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« Reply #126 on: November 20, 2012, 09:44:31 PM »

^No. But the phrasing is confusing. Perhaps someone fluent in Russian could read the Russian language  posting of this letter on Mospat and determine if there is a translation nuance at play here.

I believe this is it in Russian. Have at it.

Quote
Изволением полноты Православной Церкви в Америке на Вас возложена высокая ответственность за будущее юнейшей из Поместных Православных Церквей, переживающей в последние годы непростой период своей истории. Надеюсь, что усилиями Вашего Блаженства будут восстановлены полноценные связи Американской Церкви с другими Поместными Православными Церквами, обретены мир и согласие внутри нее, достойно обустроено дальнейшее бытие Вашего предшественника на Вашингтонской  митрополичьей кафедре.

English here.

Quote
By the will of the plenitude of the Orthodox Church in America, a high responsibility has been placed on you for the future of the youngest Local Orthodox Church, which has experienced a difficult time in her history in recent years. I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

The pertinent text, according to Google Translate, appears to be "будут восстановлены полноценные связи" translated as "will restore full-fledged relations."

I was wondering if we have any Russian speakers here who could give this a go. I tried Google, Babylon and a few other online services and I got gibberish for the entirety - but as stated with the phrase by Google.

Russian speaker here :-)  The English translation is accurate -- "will be restored," implying relations having been good, no longer being so, and being put back to being good.

In Christ,
Fr. John
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« Reply #127 on: November 21, 2012, 12:10:40 PM »

I'm wondering if this isn't a reference to Metropolitan Jonah's early-on conflict with the Patriarchate of Constantinople?

Russian speaker here :-)  The English translation is accurate -- "will be restored," implying relations having been good, no longer being so, and being put back to being good.

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« Reply #128 on: November 21, 2012, 12:16:30 PM »

I was kinda thinking the same thing.

I'm wondering if this isn't a reference to Metropolitan Jonah's early-on conflict with the Patriarchate of Constantinople?

Russian speaker here :-)  The English translation is accurate -- "will be restored," implying relations having been good, no longer being so, and being put back to being good.

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« Reply #129 on: November 21, 2012, 12:18:06 PM »

I was kinda thinking the same thing.

I'm wondering if this isn't a reference to Metropolitan Jonah's early-on conflict with the Patriarchate of Constantinople?

Russian speaker here :-)  The English translation is accurate -- "will be restored," implying relations having been good, no longer being so, and being put back to being good.


I just assumed it was.
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« Reply #130 on: November 21, 2012, 12:25:03 PM »

It may be, but probably also references some of the cooling of relations between the OCA and MP. There have been a couple of signals of displeasure sent by Moscow prior ("possible liturgical snub in Kiev (I think), "candid" discussion/chewing out with the MP, the changing of the celebration in reference to the OCA at Fr. Ross) and at least one snub on the OCA's part afterwards of a visiting MP delegation ("we're an autonomous church").

Regardless of the need to ask Met. Jonah step down, the handling of it has been very ham handed (as evidenced by the strong feelings it has generated for and against in the OCA), and that has had far reaching repercussions…and the ripples are still out there.
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« Reply #131 on: November 21, 2012, 12:50:17 PM »

I don't think there's any evidence of a 'cooling' between Moscow and the OCA, though I think the former got caught off-guard by the dysfunction of Metropolitan Jonah's relationship with the Holy Synod.  By all accounts, Moscow was closely advising His Beatitude, and in so doing wasn't getting the entire picture.  That was why Metropolitan Hilarion of the DECR had to several trips here.

The 'possible liturgical snubs', Ft. Ross, etc. largely had to do with the chaos of the situation.  Nobody was entirely sure what's going on.  All indications are that Moscow is still unaware of His Beatitude's retention of an attorney and the possibility of legal action by Metropolitan Jonah that such a retainer implies.

The truth is that Metropolitan Jonah had an, administratively-speaking, 'ham-handed' approach.  He admitted as much in his resignation, which made the transition all the more clumbsy.  This was also revealed in his musings about the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Tomos of Autocephaly, both of which led to a great deal of confusion.

There was plenty of 'ham' to go around.


It may be, but probably also references some of the cooling of relations between the OCA and MP. There have been a couple of signals of displeasure sent by Moscow prior ("possible liturgical snub in Kiev (I think), "candid" discussion/chewing out with the MP, the changing of the celebration in reference to the OCA at Fr. Ross) and at least one snub on the OCA's part afterwards of a visiting MP delegation ("we're an autonomous church").

Regardless of the need to ask Met. Jonah step down, the handling of it has been very ham handed (as evidenced by the strong feelings it has generated for and against in the OCA), and that has had far reaching repercussions…and the ripples are still out there.
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« Reply #132 on: November 21, 2012, 04:44:58 PM »

^No. But the phrasing is confusing. Perhaps someone fluent in Russian could read the Russian language  posting of this letter on Mospat and determine if there is a translation nuance at play here.

I believe this is it in Russian. Have at it.

Quote
Изволением полноты Православной Церкви в Америке на Вас возложена высокая ответственность за будущее юнейшей из Поместных Православных Церквей, переживающей в последние годы непростой период своей истории. Надеюсь, что усилиями Вашего Блаженства будут восстановлены полноценные связи Американской Церкви с другими Поместными Православными Церквами, обретены мир и согласие внутри нее, достойно обустроено дальнейшее бытие Вашего предшественника на Вашингтонской  митрополичьей кафедре.

English here.

Quote
By the will of the plenitude of the Orthodox Church in America, a high responsibility has been placed on you for the future of the youngest Local Orthodox Church, which has experienced a difficult time in her history in recent years. I hope that through the efforts of Your Beatitude the American Church will restore full-fledged relations with other Local Orthodox Churches, restore peace and harmony within herself and make comfortable the further life of your predecessor at the Metropolitan See of Washington.

The pertinent text, according to Google Translate, appears to be "будут восстановлены полноценные связи" translated as "will restore full-fledged relations."

I was wondering if we have any Russian speakers here who could give this a go. I tried Google, Babylon and a few other online services and I got gibberish for the entirety - but as stated with the phrase by Google.

Russian speaker here :-)  The English translation is accurate -- "will be restored," implying relations having been good, no longer being so, and being put back to being good.

In Christ,
Fr. John

Thanks, Fr. John.
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« Reply #133 on: November 21, 2012, 04:53:38 PM »

I don't think there's any evidence of a 'cooling' between Moscow and the OCA, though I think the former got caught off-guard by the dysfunction of Metropolitan Jonah's relationship with the Holy Synod.  By all accounts, Moscow was closely advising His Beatitude, and in so doing wasn't getting the entire picture.  That was why Metropolitan Hilarion of the DECR had to several trips here.

The 'possible liturgical snubs', Ft. Ross, etc. largely had to do with the chaos of the situation.  Nobody was entirely sure what's going on.  All indications are that Moscow is still unaware of His Beatitude's retention of an attorney and the possibility of legal action by Metropolitan Jonah that such a retainer implies.

The truth is that Metropolitan Jonah had an, administratively-speaking, 'ham-handed' approach.  He admitted as much in his resignation, which made the transition all the more clumbsy.  This was also revealed in his musings about the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Tomos of Autocephaly, both of which led to a great deal of confusion.

There was plenty of 'ham' to go around.


It may be, but probably also references some of the cooling of relations between the OCA and MP. There have been a couple of signals of displeasure sent by Moscow prior ("possible liturgical snub in Kiev (I think), "candid" discussion/chewing out with the MP, the changing of the celebration in reference to the OCA at Fr. Ross) and at least one snub on the OCA's part afterwards of a visiting MP delegation ("we're an autonomous church").

Regardless of the need to ask Met. Jonah step down, the handling of it has been very ham handed (as evidenced by the strong feelings it has generated for and against in the OCA), and that has had far reaching repercussions…and the ripples are still out there.

The cause concerns me somewhat less than the degree to which relations are less than full-fledged. The patriarch didn't mention the former, but he made a point of drawing attention to the latter.
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« Reply #134 on: November 21, 2012, 05:02:16 PM »

I don't think there's any evidence of a 'cooling' between Moscow and the OCA, though I think the former got caught off-guard by the dysfunction of Metropolitan Jonah's relationship with the Holy Synod.  By all accounts, Moscow was closely advising His Beatitude, and in so doing wasn't getting the entire picture.  That was why Metropolitan Hilarion of the DECR had to several trips here.

The 'possible liturgical snubs', Ft. Ross, etc. largely had to do with the chaos of the situation.  Nobody was entirely sure what's going on.  All indications are that Moscow is still unaware of His Beatitude's retention of an attorney and the possibility of legal action by Metropolitan Jonah that such a retainer implies.

The truth is that Metropolitan Jonah had an, administratively-speaking, 'ham-handed' approach.  He admitted as much in his resignation, which made the transition all the more clumbsy.  This was also revealed in his musings about the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Tomos of Autocephaly, both of which led to a great deal of confusion.

There was plenty of 'ham' to go around.


It may be, but probably also references some of the cooling of relations between the OCA and MP. There have been a couple of signals of displeasure sent by Moscow prior ("possible liturgical snub in Kiev (I think), "candid" discussion/chewing out with the MP, the changing of the celebration in reference to the OCA at Fr. Ross) and at least one snub on the OCA's part afterwards of a visiting MP delegation ("we're an autonomous church").

Regardless of the need to ask Met. Jonah step down, the handling of it has been very ham handed (as evidenced by the strong feelings it has generated for and against in the OCA), and that has had far reaching repercussions…and the ripples are still out there.

FatherGiryus, your read on the situation is very wrong.

Metropolitan Jonah is not even remotely responsible for the egregious mishandling of this situation by the OCA hierarchy and administration.  

Moscow has not been caught off-guard, snowed, or made in any way less than fully aware of what has gone on.
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« Reply #135 on: November 21, 2012, 05:33:40 PM »

Well, Orual, I've read all the available information and came to my conclusions.

I don't think there's any evidence of a 'cooling' between Moscow and the OCA, though I think the former got caught off-guard by the dysfunction of Metropolitan Jonah's relationship with the Holy Synod.  By all accounts, Moscow was closely advising His Beatitude, and in so doing wasn't getting the entire picture.  That was why Metropolitan Hilarion of the DECR had to several trips here.

The 'possible liturgical snubs', Ft. Ross, etc. largely had to do with the chaos of the situation.  Nobody was entirely sure what's going on.  All indications are that Moscow is still unaware of His Beatitude's retention of an attorney and the possibility of legal action by Metropolitan Jonah that such a retainer implies.

The truth is that Metropolitan Jonah had an, administratively-speaking, 'ham-handed' approach.  He admitted as much in his resignation, which made the transition all the more clumbsy.  This was also revealed in his musings about the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Tomos of Autocephaly, both of which led to a great deal of confusion.

There was plenty of 'ham' to go around.


It may be, but probably also references some of the cooling of relations between the OCA and MP. There have been a couple of signals of displeasure sent by Moscow prior ("possible liturgical snub in Kiev (I think), "candid" discussion/chewing out with the MP, the changing of the celebration in reference to the OCA at Fr. Ross) and at least one snub on the OCA's part afterwards of a visiting MP delegation ("we're an autonomous church").

Regardless of the need to ask Met. Jonah step down, the handling of it has been very ham handed (as evidenced by the strong feelings it has generated for and against in the OCA), and that has had far reaching repercussions…and the ripples are still out there.

FatherGiryus, your read on the situation is very wrong.

Metropolitan Jonah is not even remotely responsible for the egregious mishandling of this situation by the OCA hierarchy and administration.  

Moscow has not been caught off-guard, snowed, or made in any way less than fully aware of what has gone on.
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« Reply #136 on: November 21, 2012, 05:35:29 PM »

I don't think there's any evidence of a 'cooling' between Moscow and the OCA, though I think the former got caught off-guard by the dysfunction of Metropolitan Jonah's relationship with the Holy Synod.  By all accounts, Moscow was closely advising His Beatitude, and in so doing wasn't getting the entire picture.  That was why Metropolitan Hilarion of the DECR had to several trips here.

The 'possible liturgical snubs', Ft. Ross, etc. largely had to do with the chaos of the situation.  Nobody was entirely sure what's going on.  All indications are that Moscow is still unaware of His Beatitude's retention of an attorney and the possibility of legal action by Metropolitan Jonah that such a retainer implies.

The truth is that Metropolitan Jonah had an, administratively-speaking, 'ham-handed' approach.  He admitted as much in his resignation, which made the transition all the more clumbsy.  This was also revealed in his musings about the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Tomos of Autocephaly, both of which led to a great deal of confusion.

There was plenty of 'ham' to go around.


It may be, but probably also references some of the cooling of relations between the OCA and MP. There have been a couple of signals of displeasure sent by Moscow prior ("possible liturgical snub in Kiev (I think), "candid" discussion/chewing out with the MP, the changing of the celebration in reference to the OCA at Fr. Ross) and at least one snub on the OCA's part afterwards of a visiting MP delegation ("we're an autonomous church").

Regardless of the need to ask Met. Jonah step down, the handling of it has been very ham handed (as evidenced by the strong feelings it has generated for and against in the OCA), and that has had far reaching repercussions…and the ripples are still out there.

FatherGiryus, your read on the situation is very wrong.

Metropolitan Jonah is not even remotely responsible for the egregious mishandling of this situation by the OCA hierarchy and administration.  

Moscow has not been caught off-guard, snowed, or made in any way less than fully aware of what has gone on.

Orual, and do you have any sources (nothing referenced on that website that starts with an 'M' counts) that counter Fr. Giryus's statement?  I am on the parish council of my parish, in the DoW, have known Met. Jonah since the mid-90's as well has many at my parish, and none are shocked at the resignation.  We have heard of his shortcomings for two years now (ever since they started to be problematic).  Those of us who have known Met. Jonah for many years love him dearly and wish him well, but realize that he was not the man for the job and had serious shortcomings.  Think of this:  he was a bishop for ELEVEN DAYS before elected Metropolitan, when his prior administrative experience was only for a few small mission parishes and a men's monastery.  I hear that his administrative style as an Abbot was difficult to deal with back then.  To think that he was in way over his head isn't exactly implausible.  All this talk of "taking care of Met. Jonah financially"?  He is a monk!  He's not supposed to have financial needs!  And taking care of his own family financially?  Well how did they survive before he was Metropolitan only 4 years ago?

I know a priest I have known my whole life who was laicized, I think for an inappropriate situation with a woman that was not his wife.  From what little I have heard, it seemed like it could have been more accusation than substance, but I have to trust that his bishop did the right thing and it was in the best interests for his Salvation.
I'm rather saddened by the Met. JONAH situation, but trust the Synod that the decision was the best for the Church as well.  The biggest issue I have is the release of the (to quote retired Bp. TIKHON) "STINKBOMB" letter - I seriously question the need to release that letter and think it should not have been.  Certain situations regarding his resignation could have been handled much better.
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« Reply #137 on: November 21, 2012, 05:46:26 PM »

From the point of view of non-OCA folks, I would agree with Fr. G. here. The statements which Met. Jonah made regarding the Ecumenical Patriarchate were out of the norm even among the usually fractious band of Orthodoxy Bishop brothers' behavior towards each other. I think that Moscow is hoping that the OCA can obtain a more meaningful role in the EA process, its subcommittees etc... under 'new' management.
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« Reply #138 on: November 22, 2012, 12:04:47 PM »

I don't think there's any evidence of a 'cooling' between Moscow and the OCA, though I think the former got caught off-guard by the dysfunction of Metropolitan Jonah's relationship with the Holy Synod.  By all accounts, Moscow was closely advising His Beatitude, and in so doing wasn't getting the entire picture.  That was why Metropolitan Hilarion of the DECR had to several trips here.

The 'possible liturgical snubs', Ft. Ross, etc. largely had to do with the chaos of the situation.  Nobody was entirely sure what's going on.  All indications are that Moscow is still unaware of His Beatitude's retention of an attorney and the possibility of legal action by Metropolitan Jonah that such a retainer implies.

The truth is that Metropolitan Jonah had an, administratively-speaking, 'ham-handed' approach.  He admitted as much in his resignation, which made the transition all the more clumbsy.  This was also revealed in his musings about the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Tomos of Autocephaly, both of which led to a great deal of confusion.

There was plenty of 'ham' to go around.


It may be, but probably also references some of the cooling of relations between the OCA and MP. There have been a couple of signals of displeasure sent by Moscow prior ("possible liturgical snub in Kiev (I think), "candid" discussion/chewing out with the MP, the changing of the celebration in reference to the OCA at Fr. Ross) and at least one snub on the OCA's part afterwards of a visiting MP delegation ("we're an autonomous church").

Regardless of the need to ask Met. Jonah step down, the handling of it has been very ham handed (as evidenced by the strong feelings it has generated for and against in the OCA), and that has had far reaching repercussions…and the ripples are still out there.

FatherGiryus, your read on the situation is very wrong.

Metropolitan Jonah is not even remotely responsible for the egregious mishandling of this situation by the OCA hierarchy and administration.  

Moscow has not been caught off-guard, snowed, or made in any way less than fully aware of what has gone on.

Orual, and do you have any sources (nothing referenced on that website that starts with an 'M' counts) that counter Fr. Giryus's statement?


LOL.  You take Fr. Giryus at his word, but demand sources from me?  I am just relating the facts as I see them. 

Fr. Giryus is the one who cannot justify what he is saying:  Metr. Jonah could not have had anything to do with how the OCA (mis)handled this, because he's been powerless over it since July.

Quote
I am on the parish council of my parish, in the DoW, have known Met. Jonah since the mid-90's as well has many at my parish, and none are shocked at the resignation.  We have heard of his shortcomings for two years now (ever since they started to be problematic).  Those of us who have known Met. Jonah for many years love him dearly and wish him well, but realize that he was not the man for the job and had serious shortcomings.  

Think of this:  he was a bishop for ELEVEN DAYS before elected Metropolitan, when his prior administrative experience was only for a few small mission parishes and a men's monastery.  I hear that his administrative style as an Abbot was difficult to deal with back then.  To think that he was in way over his head isn't exactly implausible.

And whose fault is that?  Bishop Jonah couldn't even vote in the election that made him Metropolitan.

Quote
All this talk of "taking care of Met. Jonah financially"?  He is a monk!  He's not supposed to have financial needs!  And taking care of his own family financially?  Well how did they survive before he was Metropolitan only 4 years ago?

This alone tells me you don't have a clue about Metropolitan Jonah's personal situation and don't care about what happens to him.  That's also very unfair to his parents, who have done nothing to deserve having their lives opened up and questioned.

This is the attitude I don't understand:  it's Metropolitan Jonah's fault he was elected, it's Metropolitan Jonah's fault he supports his parents, it's Metropolitan Jonah's fault the group of people who rejected him handled it in a bad way, it's Metropolitan Jonah's fault the polar ice caps are melting.

Quote
I know a priest I have known my whole life who was laicized, I think for an inappropriate situation with a woman that was not his wife.  From what little I have heard, it seemed like it could have been more accusation than substance, but I have to trust that his bishop did the right thing and it was in the best interests for his Salvation.

And one time I went to the pet store, and Mom let me hold the cutest little bunny rabbit.  What's your point?

Quote
I'm rather saddened by the Met. JONAH situation, but trust the Synod that the decision was the best for the Church as well.  The biggest issue I have is the release of the (to quote retired Bp. TIKHON) "STINKBOMB" letter - I seriously question the need to release that letter and think it should not have been.  Certain situations regarding his resignation could have been handled much better.

If the OCA bishops want to earn back my trust, they have a ways to go.
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He spoke it as kindly and heartily as could be; as if a man dashed a gallon of cold water in your broth and never doubted you'd like it all the better. 

- C.S. Lewis, Till We Have Faces
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« Reply #139 on: November 22, 2012, 12:11:08 PM »

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This is the attitude I don't understand:  it's Metropolitan Jonah's fault he was elected, it's Metropolitan Jonah's fault he supports his parents, it's Metropolitan Jonah's fault the group of people who rejected him handled it in a bad way, it's Metropolitan Jonah's fault the polar ice caps are melting.

Spot on brilliant.
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PeterTheAleut
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Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #140 on: November 22, 2012, 12:41:03 PM »

I don't think there's any evidence of a 'cooling' between Moscow and the OCA, though I think the former got caught off-guard by the dysfunction of Metropolitan Jonah's relationship with the Holy Synod.  By all accounts, Moscow was closely advising His Beatitude, and in so doing wasn't getting the entire picture.  That was why Metropolitan Hilarion of the DECR had to several trips here.

The 'possible liturgical snubs', Ft. Ross, etc. largely had to do with the chaos of the situation.  Nobody was entirely sure what's going on.  All indications are that Moscow is still unaware of His Beatitude's retention of an attorney and the possibility of legal action by Metropolitan Jonah that such a retainer implies.

The truth is that Metropolitan Jonah had an, administratively-speaking, 'ham-handed' approach.  He admitted as much in his resignation, which made the transition all the more clumbsy.  This was also revealed in his musings about the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Tomos of Autocephaly, both of which led to a great deal of confusion.

There was plenty of 'ham' to go around.


It may be, but probably also references some of the cooling of relations between the OCA and MP. There have been a couple of signals of displeasure sent by Moscow prior ("possible liturgical snub in Kiev (I think), "candid" discussion/chewing out with the MP, the changing of the celebration in reference to the OCA at Fr. Ross) and at least one snub on the OCA's part afterwards of a visiting MP delegation ("we're an autonomous church").

Regardless of the need to ask Met. Jonah step down, the handling of it has been very ham handed (as evidenced by the strong feelings it has generated for and against in the OCA), and that has had far reaching repercussions…and the ripples are still out there.

FatherGiryus, your read on the situation is very wrong.

Metropolitan Jonah is not even remotely responsible for the egregious mishandling of this situation by the OCA hierarchy and administration.  

Moscow has not been caught off-guard, snowed, or made in any way less than fully aware of what has gone on.

Orual, and do you have any sources (nothing referenced on that website that starts with an 'M' counts) that counter Fr. Giryus's statement?

LOL.  You take Fr. Giryus at his word, but demand sources from me?  I am just relating the facts as I see them. 
ISTM that Elisha doesn't question Fr. Giryus's sources because his own first-hand experiences have verified them to be true. I think Elisha could very well ask you if you have any sources that counter his own personal experience of what happened between +Jonah and the Synod.

Fr. Giryus is the one who cannot justify what he is saying:  Metr. Jonah could not have had anything to do with how the OCA (mis)handled this, because he's been powerless over it since July.
Fr. Giryus appears to be talking about how +Jonah related to the Synod before his resignation.

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I am on the parish council of my parish, in the DoW, have known Met. Jonah since the mid-90's as well has many at my parish, and none are shocked at the resignation.  We have heard of his shortcomings for two years now (ever since they started to be problematic).  Those of us who have known Met. Jonah for many years love him dearly and wish him well, but realize that he was not the man for the job and had serious shortcomings.  

Think of this:  he was a bishop for ELEVEN DAYS before elected Metropolitan, when his prior administrative experience was only for a few small mission parishes and a men's monastery.  I hear that his administrative style as an Abbot was difficult to deal with back then.  To think that he was in way over his head isn't exactly implausible.

And whose fault is that?  Bishop Jonah couldn't even vote in the election that made him Metropolitan.
That's not relevant to Elisha's point about +Jonah's administrative style.
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