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Author Topic: The understanding of glossolalia and xenoglossia in Orthodox traditions?  (Read 3542 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: November 16, 2012, 02:17:05 PM »

I know the practice 'speak in tongue/tongue prayer ' in Pentecostal and Chrismatic Church is totally disorder and must not come from God. However, it is one of gifts and one type or the form of the prayers which is clearly shown in bible.I still believe speak in tongue and gift of interpretation is truely existing.

After some discussion in other thread, and checking some former discussion about speak in tongue/ tongue prayer in other thread, I still cannot understand how Orthodox Church understand of this gift of glossolalia,xenoglossia. Through 2000 years Orthodox traditions, how the historical church,saints, church fathers,etc understand of glossolalia and xenoglossia?Is there any writing from historical church leaders discussing about glossolalia and xenoglossia?

How do Orthodox traditions explain glossolalia and xenoglossia?What is the position of Orthodox Church about  glossolalia and xenoglossia?

I still confuse about how Orthodox Church view on  glossolalia and xenoglossia... Huh
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« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2012, 02:55:43 PM »

Speaking an understandable language that was never learned is a miracle that still happens on occasion. I have heard stories about that occurring in Mount Athos. That is the same miracle that happened in the first Pentecosts and still happens for the same reason: for the word of God be transmitted to someone who does not speak the same language of the prophet.

In parallel, there is the "Gift of Tongues" which is the unceasing prayer of the heart, a state of spirit such that your continous existence is one single glorification of God. It is silent, it happens in your soul, it happens while you keep your normal life going.

All else is one of the three: dellusion, self-hypnosis or demonic.
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walter1234
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« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2012, 02:59:30 PM »

Speaking an understandable language that was never learned is a miracle that still happens on occasion. I have heard stories about that occurring in Mount Athos. That is the same miracle that happened in the first Pentecosts and still happens for the same reason: for the word of God be transmitted to someone who does not speak the same language of the prophet.

In parallel, there is the "Gift of Tongues" which is the unceasing prayer of the heart, a state of spirit such that your continous existence is one single glorification of God. It is silent, it happens in your soul, it happens while you keep your normal life going.

All else is one of the three: dellusion, self-hypnosis or demonic.
Quote
1 Cor
2.For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth/ hear him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
 
3.But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
 
4.He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
 
5.I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he (interpret), that the church may receive edifying.


Nobody can hear the Prayers in men's soul. So, ' xenoglossia/gift of interpretation ' is to interpret one's prayers in the souls ?
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« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2012, 03:08:32 PM »

Xenoglossy is speaking an understandable, human language the person could not have learned through natural means. For example, if a Brazilian visits an elder who never was to any Portuguese-speaking country, never had any contact with the language whatsoever, and, miraculously, the visitors hears the advice from the elder in Portuguese, that is Xenoglosy.

Glossolalia is the "Gift of Tongues" the mentioned unceasing silent prayer of the heart, although the word "glossolalia" in particular is far from traditional in Orthodoxy. We use "Gift of Tongues" or "Unceasing Prayer".

The interpretation or capacity to express in human words what is learned or heard in the state of unceasing prayer is yet a third gift, possessed by the true theologians - and notice that very few saints received the title "Theologian" in Orthodoxy, only three if I remember right. St. John, the Evangelist has this title and probably had the gift of interpretation.

Speaking an understandable language that was never learned is a miracle that still happens on occasion. I have heard stories about that occurring in Mount Athos. That is the same miracle that happened in the first Pentecosts and still happens for the same reason: for the word of God be transmitted to someone who does not speak the same language of the prophet.

In parallel, there is the "Gift of Tongues" which is the unceasing prayer of the heart, a state of spirit such that your continous existence is one single glorification of God. It is silent, it happens in your soul, it happens while you keep your normal life going.

All else is one of the three: dellusion, self-hypnosis or demonic.

Nobody can hear the Prayers in men's soul. So, ' xenoglossia/gift of interpretation ' is to interpret one's prayers in the souls ?
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« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2012, 03:13:50 PM »

This video may help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOGXdLoNl2w
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« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2012, 03:19:45 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

My own personal interpretation:

This is not necessarily from the Fathers or the Canons, but I always interpreted the speaking in tongues has have this dual meaning:

(a) The ability of gifted Fathers and folks in the Church to readily translate prayers, liturgies, writings, and Scriptures into multiple languages as the Church spreads across the world, just the Lord Graced the Prophet Daniel to readily adapt to the Babylonian/Persians and became a chief scribe in their Imperial court, which is how the Church has successfully integrated so many nations and peoples into the Body of Christ.

(b) The ability by Grace of individuals to miraculously understand in prayer the meanings of Liturgical prayers and litanies said in Church services, even if they are not fluent in those languages.  The Holy Spirit helps to explain the meaning when simple translations aren't available.  It is always precise? Not necessarily, but I feel the Holy Spirit has always guided folks to convert and join the Church even when at times the Church was initially foreign. 

stay blessed,
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« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2012, 03:48:15 PM »

People want to attend services in a language they do not understand.
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walter1234
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« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2012, 02:18:25 AM »


I heard 6 stage of prayer in video.1st-4th stages are prayer of lip, of mouth, of tongue, of voice.5th stage is prayer of our mind.6th stage is prayer of our hear


1.What is the 7th,8th,9thstage of prayer?
2. What is the difference between the prayer of lip, of mouth, of tongue and of voice?
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walter1234
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« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2012, 06:56:39 AM »

Is there any relation between 'gift of tongue/prayer of the heart' and 'Jesus prayer'
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« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2012, 03:38:40 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

People want to attend services in a language they do not understand.

The Church moves and creeps into new locations across centuries and generations.  When the Apostles and Saints and Fathers went into new places, they often encountered new peoples. The Liturgy has always attracted people to the Church, whichever language they happened to speak.  Such is the power of the Mysteries.  It has not always been as easy as "the Church should just speak the language of the people" because the Church mission has been to enter into places with new peoples and languages.  What, should the Apostles have waited until their Rosetta Stone came in?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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walter1234
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2012, 03:55:19 AM »

Quote

I still have one question. 'Gift of tongue/prayer of the heart' is one of the gift of Holy Spirit. All gifts of Holy Spirit are all given by Holy spirit. We cannot train or practice the gift of Holy Spirit, like healing, casting out demons , gift of tongue ,etc?  

But Why does the quoted Orthodox Christian website  teach us that we need to practice prayer of the heart(e.g. gift of tongue) through Jesus Prayer?
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2012, 07:21:35 AM »

Walter,

The difference from lip, mounth, tongue and voice is how well you memorized and say the prayers, from the point you just read them to the one you can do a proper prayer (from the point of view of knowing what to say even if you don't understand it) without any help.

He did mention the 7th, 8th and 9th stage: active, all-seeing and contemplative, which is the highest stage.

But we have to be careful with these divisions because they are merely pedagogical. Some other fathers use less or even more stages to describe what is basically a continuum from the merely recited prayer to the seraphinic state of being "in flames" in the presence of the Lord.

One important thing though is that we simply can't skip stages. Sometimes people learn about this and promptly think "Ah, I got it, I don't have to waste time with the first stages, I'll go straight to the stage of prayer of the mind". This is a grave mistake. Being able to recite and say prayers adequately is absolutely necessary for a real state of prayer of the mind and all subsequent ones. The first four stages correspond and cause the purification of the mind that is necessary, by substituting the "garbage" we have in our subconscious for healthy and shining material. They are exactly what the Lord said about building the house on a rock, the preparation of the terrain so it can be the solid foundation of the house. If we skip the first four stages avoiding reading and memorizing the prayers delivered by the saints, our house will be built on sand.



I heard 6 stage of prayer in video.1st-4th stages are prayer of lip, of mouth, of tongue, of voice.5th stage is prayer of our mind.6th stage is prayer of our hear


1.What is the 7th,8th,9thstage of prayer?
2. What is the difference between the prayer of lip, of mouth, of tongue and of voice?
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2012, 07:24:38 AM »

Practicing does not guarantee you will be an Olympic gold medal, but you can't be an Olympic Gold Medal without practice.

Plus, you may well be just one of the best runners of your small town and not an Olympic athlete. We must pray to be as holy as we can be, without envy but admiration and love for those holier than us.


Quote

I still have one question. 'Gift of tongue/prayer of the heart' is one of the gift of Holy Spirit. All gifts of Holy Spirit are all given by Holy spirit. We cannot train or practice the gift of Holy Spirit, like healing, casting out demons , gift of tongue ,etc?  

But Why does the quoted Orthodox Christian website  teach us that we need to practice prayer of the heart(e.g. gift of tongue) through Jesus Prayer?
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walter1234
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2012, 07:50:05 AM »

Practicing does not guarantee you will be an Olympic gold medal, but you can't be an Olympic Gold Medal without practice.

Plus, you may well be just one of the best runners of your small town and not an Olympic athlete. We must pray to be as holy as we can be, without envy but admiration and love for those holier than us.


Quote

I still have one question. 'Gift of tongue/prayer of the heart' is one of the gift of Holy Spirit. All gifts of Holy Spirit are all given by Holy spirit. We cannot train or practice the gift of Holy Spirit, like healing, casting out demons , gift of tongue ,etc?  

But Why does the quoted Orthodox Christian website  teach us that we need to practice prayer of the heart(e.g. gift of tongue) through Jesus Prayer?

Still a bit confused.

We can practice and train gift of tongue through Jesus prayer. However,Why can't we practice and train the gift of healing, prophect, faith through something ?

You mean some may have better power on ' gift in tongue', some may have less; Some may has greater gift on healing, some may have less; Some may have great gift on Prophecy, some may have less ,etc. Is'n't it?
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2012, 07:59:52 AM »

As a cradle I have no idea what are you talking about.

I'm not really sure I'd like to know.
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2012, 08:03:32 AM »

Walter,

it is like studying mathematics. You can study it, but this does not guarantee you will make any great world-changing discovery as the great mathematicians did. There are degrees in this knowledge of maths and there are degrees in our prayer. Some people studied maths very hard and with deep love and never had any noticeable achievement. Others who did have achievements relied on born talent developed with little difficulty.

We must pray because *any* prayer, even the prayer of the lips, brings us a bit closer to God. Remember that Jesus said that no one can say that He is Lord without the Holy Spirit. But, achieving the heights of the prayer of the heart is a gift like any other and cannot be forced by much struggle.

We are called to pray even if we don't get to the "top" because any prayer brings some benefit.

I don't know, but maybe you're struggling with an Orthodox concept that is foreign to some "christianities": that there are degrees of closeness to God, degrees of gifts. It's not an all or nothing game. Sometimes we would like to have a certain gift in a certain degree but God grants it to us in a low level. Even in this we must be faithful and practice it (remember the parable of the 10 talents).

The other gifts may be aked to God. In fact, Paul tells us to ask for them. But only as long we understand we are children asking our Father, not clients demanding a service we paid for.

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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2012, 08:09:25 AM »

Michal,
as we can see in Paul's first epistle to the Corinthians, God grants several gifts to Christians, different kinds of "charismas": some miraculous like performing healings, others more natural like being able to teach with clarity. Unceasing prayer, also mentioned by St. Paul, is one of such supernatural gifts.

Walter is a bit concerned about the topic in face of typically mechanical understanding of these gifts by evangelicals, specially those who think that mumbling strange sounds is the mentioned Gift of Tongues (mistake 01) and that it is a necessary gift to the true believer (mistake 02). There is no necessary gift or it wouldn't be a gift.

As a cradle I have no idea what are you talking about.

I'm not really sure I'd like to know.
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2012, 09:12:32 AM »

We cannot build relationship with God through the gift of healing,the gift of faith ,gift of knowledge/wisodom,gift of miracles, gift of prophecy,etc.Only  ' speak  in tongue/ prayer of the heart'  can draw us closer to God and help us build imitate relationship with HIM.     ( And Building an imitate relationship with God is the aim of all Christians)

Praying without creasing is also the goal of all Christian. Only prayer of the heart or speak in tongue can help us to achieve it.

Why is "speak in tongue / prayer of the heart' still the smallest gift?  
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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2012, 01:04:40 PM »

We can't build a relationship with God through the other gifts? Really Walter? Do you really think that a person who has been granted the gift of healing, or the gift of preaching does not have a growing relationship with God? Of course they do. You can have a relationship with God even if you don't have any gift at all. You can be ugly, poor, unintelligent, a doubter, uncharismatic, sick but if you love God you do have a relationship with Him.

Read not only the passage, but what follows it. St. Paul exposes several gifts (even being an Apostle), as "minor" in relation to the "more excellent thing" he was about to show us.

{Are} all apostles? {are} all prophets? {are} all teachers? {are} all workers of miracles? {workers...: or, powers?}
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way:

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become {as} sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have {the gift of} prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed {the poor}, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity suffereth long, {and} is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, {vaunteth...: or, is not rash}

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; {in the truth: or, with the truth}

Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

Charity never faileth: but whether {there be} prophecies, they shall fail; whether {there be} tongues, they shall cease; whether {there be} knowledge, it shall vanish away. {fail: Gr. vanish away}

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. {done away: Gr. vanish away}

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. {thought: or, reasoned} {put away: Gr. vanish away}

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. {darkly: Gr. in a riddle}

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these {is} charity.
   
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« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2012, 01:07:29 PM »

I don't remember which elder or theologian said it, but it's something like this

"A man who loves is a wonder greater even than a resurrection".

A relationship with God is not built on the gifts He may or may not give us but on the gifts we give Him and our neighbours.

Side note: "Charity " there is the Greek for a certain form of love, not simply giving to the poor.
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2012, 01:40:42 PM »

This one is important:

Quote
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become {as} sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


Tongues of men refers to xenoglossia and tongue of angels to glossolalia. There are two important teachings there: first, you can have them and yet not have a relationship of God. It is love that creates this relationship, not the gifts.

Love is greater than even faith (bye-bye Luther!).
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2012, 02:46:08 AM »

I don't remember which elder or theologian said it, but it's something like this

"A man who loves is a wonder greater even than a resurrection".

A relationship with God is not built on the gifts He may or may not give us but on the gifts we give Him and our neighbours.

Side note: "Charity " there is the Greek for a certain form of love, not simply giving to the poor.
Jesus taught that the two greatest commandments are to love God with all your being and to love our neighbor as yourself. He didn't include speaking in tongues in this list.
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2012, 07:28:31 AM »

Quote
The Greek Orthodox Church does not preclude the use of Glossolalia, but regards it as one of the minor gifts of the Holy Spirit. If Glossolalia has fallen out of use it is because it served its purpose in New Testament times and is no longer necessary. However, even when used, it is a private and personal gift, a lower form of prayer.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7112

Glossolalia is the prayer of the heart/gift of tongue, which is the highest and purest form of prayer. Why does Fr. George Nicozisin  teach that Glossolalia is a lower form of prayer?

Quote
Specifically, Corinthian Glossolalia was an activity of the Holy Spirit coming upon a person and compelling him to external expressions directed to God, but not understood by others.
.
.
.
When the person spoke, his soul became passive and his understanding became inactive. He was in a state of ecstasy. While the words or sounds were prayer and praise, they were not clear in meaning and gave the impression of something mysterious. The phenomenon included sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries and utterances  of disconnected speech, sometimes jubilant and some times ecstatic. There is no question-the Church of Corinth had Glossolalia;

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7112


Fr. George Nicozisin teach that glossolalia  is the sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries and utterances  of disconnected speech which others cannot understand without the gift of interpretation of tongue, but not prayer of the heart. Do you agree with the teaching of Fr. George Nicozisin?
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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2012, 10:45:37 AM »

Quote
The Greek Orthodox Church does not preclude the use of Glossolalia, but regards it as one of the minor gifts of the Holy Spirit. If Glossolalia has fallen out of use it is because it served its purpose in New Testament times and is no longer necessary. However, even when used, it is a private and personal gift, a lower form of prayer.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7112

Glossolalia is the prayer of the heart/gift of tongue, which is the highest and purest form of prayer. Why does Fr. George Nicozisin  teach that Glossolalia is a lower form of prayer?
Why do you believe that glossolalia is the prayer of the heart?
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 11:51:49 AM »

Greek Original:

1Co 14:2 GNT - "ὁ γὰρ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ, ἀλλὰ τῷ Θεῷ· οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἀκούει, πνεύματι δὲ λαλεῖ μυστήρια·"

" ἀκούει" means "hear" not "understand". What the Apostle wrote is that "no man hears him", that is, this "tongue" is a language that is silent. How different from the noisy charismatic.

(The Orthodox speaks this tongue even today, it is the Incessant Prayer of the Heart, when the very essence of the soul prays and not only the mouth.) Just as we read in Songs "even in my sleep I prayed". St. Paul calls us to learn this "tongue" when he tells to "pray without ceasing". This is not merely speaking prayers all the time, but to become such a servant of God, that our very soul lights up in flames of continuous prayer.
Even the older English translations acknowledge that:

"And he that spekith in tunge, spekith not to men, but to God; for no man herith. But the spirit spekith mysteries." [Wycliffe - 1395]

"For he that speaketh with toges speaketh not vnto men but vnto god for no man heareth him how be it in the sprete he speaketh misteries." [Tyndale - 1526]

"For he yt speaketh with tunges, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: for no man heareth him. Howbeit in ye sprete he speaketh misteries." [Miles Coverdale Bible - 1535]

"For he that speaketh with the tongue, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: For no man heareth [hym]. Howbeit, in the spirite he speaketh misteries." [Bishop's Bible - 1568]



Speaking an understandable language that was never learned is a miracle that still happens on occasion. I have heard stories about that occurring in Mount Athos. That is the same miracle that happened in the first Pentecosts and still happens for the same reason: for the word of God be transmitted to someone who does not speak the same language of the prophet.

In parallel, there is the "Gift of Tongues" which is the (unceasing prayer of the heart), a state of spirit such that your continous existence is one single glorification of God. It is silent, it happens in your soul, it happens while you keep your normal life going.

All else is one of the three: dellusion, self-hypnosis or demonic.


Xenoglossy is speaking an understandable, human language the person could not have learned through natural means. For example, if a Brazilian visits an elder who never was to any Portuguese-speaking country, never had any contact with the language whatsoever, and, miraculously, the visitors hears the advice from the elder in Portuguese, that is Xenoglosy.

( Glossolalia )is the "Gift of Tongues" the mentioned unceasing (silent prayer of the heart), although the word "glossolalia" in particular is far from traditional in Orthodoxy. We use "Gift of Tongues" or "Unceasing Prayer".

The interpretation or capacity to express in human words what is learned or heard in the state of unceasing prayer is yet a third gift, possessed by the true theologians - and notice that very few saints received the title "Theologian" in Orthodoxy, only three if I remember right. St. John, the Evangelist has this title and probably had the gift of interpretation.




From Fabio Leite .

You don't think that glossolalia is the prayer of the heart according to 2000 Years' Orthodox Traditions, PeterTheAleut ?
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« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2012, 12:04:50 PM »

Glossolalia translates literally as "speaking tongues".

When the Gospel uses the expression, it is about the prayer of the heart it is speaking about.

If father George were right, there would have been both defenders and critics of that practice in Church history. But there are none. He is just repeating the mistaken interpretation of the Charismatics, taking the passage out of context.

Evidence 01) The thing charismatics call "gift of tongues" has never been reported not even as something to be criticized before the charismatic movement "saw" this meaning in the text - something that occurred in the convulated rise of spiritualism and mediunism in the new age movement. It is clearly a "christian" way of practicing the same thing that happens in mediunity, whatever you believe it is happening in mediums (deceit, self-deceit, self-hypnosis, possession by spirits or demons or all of this). "Charismatic" movement has a clear, verifiable beginning in very recent history, therefore not being part of traditional Orthodox teaching, much less could it be the Orthodox interpretation of the passages in analysis;

Evidence 02) There is a saying that goes "a text without a context is just a pretext". The context of the discussions of gifts in Corinthians is clearly saying that whatever the gift, from the greatest (being an apostle) to the smallest ones (including the gift of tongues), they all should be put in second place in relation to the askesis necessary to be able to love like God loves us. Charismatics obviously do the opposite often putting the receiving of the gift on the forefront and as *the* mark of a "true relationship" with God, thus inverting completely the Christian life from a life of giving to a life of receiving.

Evidence 03) The translation that says those with the gift of tongues uttered any sound whatsoever is absolutely wrong. The correct translation is the precise opposite, that they did not make any sound at all.

So the mistaken interpretation of the charismatics, not only lacks any historical basis but is based on a wrong translation of an out of context passage.
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2012, 12:18:21 PM »

Yes, It seems that Fr. George does not oppose Pentecostal and Charismatic's practice of 'modern type of speak in tongue'. The only problem is that  Pentecostal and Charismatic's  Church too emphasize on their 'modern type of speak in tongue'.

This modern type of speak in tongue is really the sighs, groanings, shoutings, cries and utterances  of disconnected speech which others cannot understand, just like what Fr. George say in his article.Also, Nobody can prove that whether we truely speak in tongue or not.

My pastor teaches that 'No method can prove you are saved or not. It's all about faith. It is just as the same as speak in tongue. No one can tell you that you truely speak in tongue or not. It is all about faith.Keep practing this tongue with faith.'  My Church even teach us to lay hand on the others who is speaking in tongue and then interpretate those tongues with faith  .( I suspect whether this 'newly and innovative type of interpretation of tongue' is really come from God)
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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2012, 12:37:23 PM »

Charismatics also like to use that reference of "groans and utterances" and so on.

It comes from Romans 8:26, which is thus translated in modern English, (notice the final clause, from "but the Spirit..." on):

Quote
http://bible.cc/romans/8-26.htm

New International Version (©1984)
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.

New Living Translation (©2007)
And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.

English Standard Version (©2001)
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

International Standard Version (©2008)
In the same way, the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, since we do not know how to pray as we should. But the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans too deep for words,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
In this way also The Spirit helps our weakness. We do not know what we should pray for, whenever it is necessary, but that Spirit prays in our place with groaning which is unspoken.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
At the same time the Spirit also helps us in our weakness, because we don't know how to pray for what we need. But the Spirit intercedes along with our groans that cannot be expressed in words.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
Likewise the Spirit also helps our weakness: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought but the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

American King James Version
Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

American Standard Version
And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings.

Darby Bible Translation
And in like manner the Spirit joins also its help to our weakness; for we do not know what we should pray for as is fitting, but the Spirit itself makes intercession with groanings which cannot be uttered.

English Revised Version
And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;

Webster's Bible Translation
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Weymouth New Testament
In the same way the Spirit also helps us in our weakness; for we do not know what prayers to offer nor in what way to offer them. But the Spirit Himself pleads for us in yearnings that can find no words,

World English Bible
In the same way, the Spirit also helps our weaknesses, for we don't know how to pray as we ought. But the Spirit himself makes intercession for us with groanings which can't be uttered.

Young's Literal Translation
And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth us, we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable,

 

In Greek it reads:

ἀλλὰ αὐτὸ τὸ πνεῦμα ὑπερεντυγχάνει στεναγμοῖς ἀλαλήτοις:

"Alalitis" has the same word-root as "glossalalia", the verb "to speak".

The Greek prefix "a" means the absence of the following action: athanatos (with no death), akathist (not sitting), amoral, atypic and so on.

The text is directly expressing that the Spirit acts *without* any speaking. Because English translators did not know Orthodox tradition, they simply did not know of the prayer of the heart, prayed without voice or sound, so they were (and still are) at loss to the proper translation that should read: "but the Spirit intercedes for us with silent sighs". "Silent sighs" being a poetical image for prayer that has become so internalized it has become the prayer of the heart.
 

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« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2012, 12:45:25 PM »

The Holy Spirit acts in silence in our heart. There may be a spirit in the Charismatics, but it is certainly not the same Spirit that is in the Gospel.
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« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2012, 01:38:08 PM »

Greek Original:

1Co 14:2 GNT - "ὁ γὰρ λαλῶν γλώσσῃ οὐκ ἀνθρώποις λαλεῖ, ἀλλὰ τῷ Θεῷ· οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἀκούει, πνεύματι δὲ λαλεῖ μυστήρια·"

" ἀκούει" means "hear" not "understand". What the Apostle wrote is that "no man hears him", that is, this "tongue" is a language that is silent. How different from the noisy charismatic.

(The Orthodox speaks this tongue even today, it is the Incessant Prayer of the Heart, when the very essence of the soul prays and not only the mouth.) Just as we read in Songs "even in my sleep I prayed". St. Paul calls us to learn this "tongue" when he tells to "pray without ceasing". This is not merely speaking prayers all the time, but to become such a servant of God, that our very soul lights up in flames of continuous prayer.
Even the older English translations acknowledge that:

"And he that spekith in tunge, spekith not to men, but to God; for no man herith. But the spirit spekith mysteries." [Wycliffe - 1395]

"For he that speaketh with toges speaketh not vnto men but vnto god for no man heareth him how be it in the sprete he speaketh misteries." [Tyndale - 1526]

"For he yt speaketh with tunges, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: for no man heareth him. Howbeit in ye sprete he speaketh misteries." [Miles Coverdale Bible - 1535]

"For he that speaketh with the tongue, speaketh not vnto men, but vnto God: For no man heareth [hym]. Howbeit, in the spirite he speaketh misteries." [Bishop's Bible - 1568]



Speaking an understandable language that was never learned is a miracle that still happens on occasion. I have heard stories about that occurring in Mount Athos. That is the same miracle that happened in the first Pentecosts and still happens for the same reason: for the word of God be transmitted to someone who does not speak the same language of the prophet.

In parallel, there is the "Gift of Tongues" which is the (unceasing prayer of the heart), a state of spirit such that your continous existence is one single glorification of God. It is silent, it happens in your soul, it happens while you keep your normal life going.

All else is one of the three: dellusion, self-hypnosis or demonic.


Xenoglossy is speaking an understandable, human language the person could not have learned through natural means. For example, if a Brazilian visits an elder who never was to any Portuguese-speaking country, never had any contact with the language whatsoever, and, miraculously, the visitors hears the advice from the elder in Portuguese, that is Xenoglosy.

( Glossolalia )is the "Gift of Tongues" the mentioned unceasing (silent prayer of the heart), although the word "glossolalia" in particular is far from traditional in Orthodoxy. We use "Gift of Tongues" or "Unceasing Prayer".

The interpretation or capacity to express in human words what is learned or heard in the state of unceasing prayer is yet a third gift, possessed by the true theologians - and notice that very few saints received the title "Theologian" in Orthodoxy, only three if I remember right. St. John, the Evangelist has this title and probably had the gift of interpretation.




From Fabio Leite .
OK

You don't think that glossolalia is the prayer of the heart according to 2000 Years' Orthodox Traditions, PeterTheAleut ?
Please don't read anything into my question.
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« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2012, 02:35:16 PM »

Quote
Many in the early Church were gifted with tongues, but over time the gift became rarer. The problem was, quite simply, that if someone spoke in tongues, he would unintentionally take up all the spiritual space of the congregation as a whole, which would not derive the least profit from the gift. The best explanation for God’s gift of tongues to the early Church lies in the necessity of teaching newly-converted Christians to pray with their heart rather than just externally, as they were likely to have been used to doing. But the Church soon discovered a deeper way to educate the heart, for She was concerned to cultivate the inner man. She discovered the invocation of the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ. And little by little, the Prayer of the Heart ((((replaced)))) the gift of speaking in tongues.The Jesus Prayer is a way of praying in the spirit without losing any control of the spirit, and, therefore, without running the risk of usurping the space of the other members of the Body of Christ.http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/on-the-gift-of-speaking-in-tongues.aspx

This Orthodox website says that after Jesus ascended to Heaven, God gave the gift of speak in tongue to the early Church .However, After Jesus prayer developed, the gift of speaking in tongue was replaced by the prayer of the heart? Do you agree with what this Orthodox website say?

(How can the gift of Holy Spirit replace with something else? Can we replace gift of  healing, faith, prophecy,etc with something else? To me, this teaching seems Quite strange!!)
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« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2012, 02:52:31 PM »

Quote
Many in the early Church were gifted with tongues, but over time the gift became rarer. The problem was, quite simply, that if someone spoke in tongues, he would unintentionally take up all the spiritual space of the congregation as a whole, which would not derive the least profit from the gift. The best explanation for God’s gift of tongues to the early Church lies in the necessity of teaching newly-converted Christians to pray with their heart rather than just externally, as they were likely to have been used to doing. But the Church soon discovered a deeper way to educate the heart, for She was concerned to cultivate the inner man. She discovered the invocation of the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ. And little by little, the Prayer of the Heart ((((replaced)))) the gift of speaking in tongues.The Jesus Prayer is a way of praying in the spirit without losing any control of the spirit, and, therefore, without running the risk of usurping the space of the other members of the Body of Christ.http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/on-the-gift-of-speaking-in-tongues.aspx

This Orthodox website says that after Jesus ascended to Heaven, God gave the gift of speak in tongue to the early Church .However, After Jesus prayer developed, the gift of speaking in tongue was replaced by the prayer of the God? Do you agree with what this Orthodox website say?

(How can the gift of Holy Spirit, like healing, faith, prophecy,etc replace with something else? To me, this teaching seems Quite strange!!)
orthodoxinfo.com seldom, if ever, posts any material originally written by the creator of the Web site. Most of the material I've seen there is essays, articles, and other material written by the Fathers or by traditionalist Orthodox writers and theologians of the 20th and 21st centuries. Can you tell me who wrote the essay you copied from orthodoxinfo?
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« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2012, 02:55:50 PM »

Quote
On the Gift of Speaking in Tongues
Ch. 15 from The Hidden Man of the Heart
by Archimandrite Zacharias

THe writter should be Archimandrite Zacharias.
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« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2012, 02:58:41 PM »

Walter,

any theory, pro or con current charismatic view, that is based on the mistranslation that the gift of tongues had to do with uttering sounds is simply slipping on ice, because that is not what Paul described. It was a silent prayer.


Quote
Many in the early Church were gifted with tongues, but over time the gift became rarer. The problem was, quite simply, that if someone spoke in tongues, he would unintentionally take up all the spiritual space of the congregation as a whole, which would not derive the least profit from the gift. The best explanation for God’s gift of tongues to the early Church lies in the necessity of teaching newly-converted Christians to pray with their heart rather than just externally, as they were likely to have been used to doing. But the Church soon discovered a deeper way to educate the heart, for She was concerned to cultivate the inner man. She discovered the invocation of the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ. And little by little, the Prayer of the Heart ((((replaced)))) the gift of speaking in tongues.The Jesus Prayer is a way of praying in the spirit without losing any control of the spirit, and, therefore, without running the risk of usurping the space of the other members of the Body of Christ.http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/on-the-gift-of-speaking-in-tongues.aspx

This Orthodox website says that after Jesus ascended to Heaven, God gave the gift of speak in tongue to the early Church .However, After Jesus prayer developed, the gift of speaking in tongue was replaced by the prayer of the God? Do you agree with what this Orthodox website say?

(How can the gift of Holy Spirit, like healing, faith, prophecy,etc replace with something else? To me, this teaching seems Quite strange!!)
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« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2012, 06:40:15 AM »

It seems that some Orthodox Priests, like Fr. George also recognize 'modern type of  speak in tongue ' from Pentecostal and Charismatic Church as one of the Holy Spirit's gift. However, the Orthodox Church as whole still oppose it
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« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2012, 06:59:17 AM »

"but the Spirit intercedes for us with silent sighs"

What we feel frustration, we would sigh.Sigh seems implying a meaning of " sadness "...

What does  'sigh' mean in Roman 8:26? Why does St. Paul use the word 'sigh" in Roman 8:26?

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« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2012, 09:40:56 AM »

Walter,

I think there is no point pushing the metaphor that much. It's a poetic image and that's it. If someone says "her eyes are like the color of the ocean", there is no point further questioning like "Which ocean? The deep or the shallow part? Do you mean blue, green or blueshish green? Do you include the white of the foam of waves? " It's poetry, it's meant to be contemplated not examined. Smiley Let the image inspire you, let the sunset be just beautiful instead of trying to put numbers and measures to light's wavelengths. The secret of the sunset's beauty is not in its physics:)




"but the Spirit intercedes for us with silent sighs"

What we feel frustration, we would sigh.Sigh seems implying a meaning of " sadness "...

What does  'sigh' mean in Roman 8:26? Why does St. Paul use the word 'sigh" in Roman 8:26?


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« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2012, 11:50:09 AM »

"but the Spirit intercedes for us with silent sighs"

What we feel frustration, we would sigh.Sigh seems implying a meaning of " sadness "...

What does  'sigh' mean in Roman 8:26? Why does St. Paul use the word 'sigh" in Roman 8:26?
For the record, that quote doesn't show up in anything I've posted. Could you be unintentionally misusing the quote tags?
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« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2012, 11:57:56 AM »

Quote
"but the Spirit intercedes for us with silent sighs"

Yes, this sentence is come from Fabio Leite .
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« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2012, 12:30:16 PM »

And on a sidenote we sigh not only when we are sad, but also when we are in love. I'm quite sure that is the meaning Paul had in mind. Smiley

Quote
"but the Spirit intercedes for us with silent sighs"

Yes, this sentence is come from Fabio Leite .
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« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2012, 01:05:00 PM »

I am not certain but if I'm not mistaken, the Church does not have an official interperetation of Glossolalia

I am not the Church but I personally feel that while indeed Angels speak in tounges, if Satan can appear as an Angel of Light, then surely demons can also speak in tounges.  It is best to exercise caution when talking to someone who speaks in tounges or if you yourself pray for the gift.  Or maybe just not worry about it all together (after all, God won't send you to hell for not practicing Glossolalia but He might for accepting the practice of demons, and there are many other ways to gain treasures in Heaven)
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« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2012, 01:14:56 PM »

Also, be sure not to let everyone know you do it if you do it, keep it personal.
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« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2012, 02:04:20 PM »

I am not certain but if I'm not mistaken, the Church does not have an official interperetation of Glossolalia

I am not the Church but I personally feel that while indeed Angels speak in tounges, if Satan can appear as an Angel of Light, then surely demons can also speak in tounges.  It is best to exercise caution when talking to someone who speaks in tounges or if you yourself pray for the gift.  Or maybe just not worry about it all together (after all, God won't send you to hell for not practicing Glossolalia but He might for accepting the practice of demons, and there are many other ways to gain treasures in Heaven)


Quote
The video shows a man kept using "modern type of speaking in tongue" to cast out demon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAuUoCzBrgE

Here is the video. In the video, one of the men kept using the "modern type of speak in tongue" to cast out the demons. It is true that  there is power in 'modern type of speak in tongue'. But this power may not come from God.
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« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2012, 03:08:30 PM »

Casting out demons is not exclusivity of Christianity. Also, Jesus said that we should not bother about those outside the Apostolic tradition who do it. Our task is to follow Jesus with the Apostles, because that is where the Church is.
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« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2012, 02:24:43 PM »

I want to share some experience. I don't know whether this is true ' speak in tongue'.

One day, I took the train and go to University. In the train ,I kept praying with Jesus prayer and saying to God with my mouth/or a little voice --- ' Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God , Have mercy on me , a sinner' for more than 30 minutes. After I got off the train , walked to University, I stopped praying to God with my mouth. However, my heart insides still kept praying and saying ' Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God , Have mercy on me , a sinner' for a period of time ( I think around 20-25 minutes).

Another experience is quite similar, I went into a room, keep praying with Jesus prayer and saying to God with my mouth --- ' Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God , Have mercy on me , a sinner' for more than 30 minutes. After I left the room , stop praying with Jesus Prayer with my mouth and do and did something else  , my heart insides was still kept saying 'kept praying and saying ' Lord Jesus Christ , Son of God , Have mercy on me , a sinner' for a period of time.

Is this the gift of speak in tongue/ prayer of the heart?
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« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2012, 06:51:56 PM »

this is the prayer of the heart.
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« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2012, 02:20:17 AM »

Is that the prayer of the heart can only be practiced with Jesus prayer?
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2012, 12:04:24 PM »

no, any prayer you memorise and repeat sincerely can repeat itself inside you after you stop thinking about it.
just think, if you listen to a popular piece of music many times a day (eg. on the radio), the tune will be inside your head the next day as you are travelling or resting.
you will not be able to stop thinking about it easily.

how much better, then, to memorise prayers and passages from the Bible, so that they will be going around in your head after you finish thinking about them.
so when we find the sincere prayer going around and around in our head, we call it the prayer of the heart, because we have become so full of this prayer that we think about it without realising it.
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« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2012, 12:44:13 PM »

Quote
Lord,forgive me
Quote
Lord,help me.


Can Prayer of the heart  be practiced with the quoted prayers?
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« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2012, 01:00:07 PM »

Yes, there is nothing magical about the Jesus prayer. In fact there are several variations even of that...

"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner"
"Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me"
Etc..

However, the Jesus prayer is a time-tested and tradition-validated prayer, so I don't mean to be dismissing it as though all prayers are equal.
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