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Author Topic: Old believers?  (Read 8436 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2012, 08:19:14 PM »

I got a question, how exactly do we define 'modest'? I oftentimes notice that many people who advocate dressing 'modestly' seem to confuse 'modest' with old-fashioned. Modest is defined by society and the times. The scriptures order us to dress modestly, but never defines modest other than headcoverings. That is because modesty changes from time to time. We should dress modest in the sense of modesty that our culture determines, not goin by the standard of modesty that people of a particular area might have had in the past. In fact, doing the latter might even be a bad thing, because the foreign type of apparel could draw attention to yourself and thus distract the people around you from worship.
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« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2012, 08:21:39 PM »

I got a question, how exactly do we define 'modest'? I oftentimes notice that many people who advocate dressing 'modestly' seem to confuse 'modest' with old-fashioned. Modest is defined by society and the times. The scriptures order us to dress modestly, but never defines modest other than headcoverings. That is because modesty changes from time to time. We should dress modest in the sense of modesty that our culture determines, not goin by the standard of modesty that people of a particular area might have had in the past. In fact, doing the latter might even be a bad thing, because the foreign type of apparel could draw attention to yourself and thus distract the people around you from worship.

You hit the nail on the head there.

Going by the ancient Roman Empire, if we wanted to be "modest", we'd be wearing togas, and pants (even for men) would be taboo.

Don't the Old Believers also dress very "old fashioned" similarly to the Amish in the U.S.? That is just weird.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:21:49 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2012, 08:22:38 PM »

Who are you to say "most laypeople in the Orthodox Church do not follow the Scriptures"?

Who do you think you are?

Would you please quote me where I said that?
I thought the word I said was "many".

Now from my example, WHERE am I wrong?   Are the women covering their heads?
Read 1 Corinthians 11.

Are they dressed modestly?  NOT entirely.

Even icons of the Theotokos and Female Saints they are dressed modestly & their heads covered.

This isn't an argument.  This is me getting vented on.

I am a human being capable of logic.  They are not following the scriptures in that example.

In the OCA I witnessed at least 70% of the church dressed this way.  It is not part of the commands of the scriptures.

In ROCOR, it was much more following the scriptures.

Please do not plug words into my fingers.

You're an idiot if you think those are important parts of the faith. In fact, you are just like many Old Believers, you are absolutely idolizing small-t "traditions" and putting them up to the level of theology and doctrine.

Who CARES if women don't cover their heads, who cares if we cross ourselves with three fingers? It doesn't matter!

I guess you believe the scriptures are small t then.  Because covering, modesty, and non-costly array are all in the scriptures AND in the TRADITION of the Eastern Orthodox church.   MODERN Orthodoxy (post 1940) has a lot of this, as well as ecumenism.

Crossing yourself two or three is a different fight.  It matters to the Old believers.

Well, I'm glad I'm not an idiot by that definition, because I don't believe its the most  important part of faith.  It is important, but not the most.   Living by the commands of the scriptures as best as you can is important, but not the MOST.

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« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2012, 08:23:22 PM »

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The difference is a hard truth - most lay people of the EO church do not follow the scriptures, and go ahead and wear costly array - even to church.   Many women in EO do not practice covering their heads during prayer either.  (many DO, many don't).

Yes, I can quote you where you said that.

What is it with your obsession with women, prudishness and clothing? If a parish has a dress code, let the ushers and administrators worry about it. Let them publish a letter or put a sign about it in the lobby. It is not your business to get in everyone's face and tell them what to do. It's a sin to judge.

I repeat: who do you think you are?
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« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2012, 08:23:52 PM »

Who are you to say "most laypeople in the Orthodox Church do not follow the Scriptures"?

Who do you think you are?

Would you please quote me where I said that?
I thought the word I said was "many".

Now from my example, WHERE am I wrong?   Are the women covering their heads?
Read 1 Corinthians 11.

Are they dressed modestly?  NOT entirely.

Even icons of the Theotokos and Female Saints they are dressed modestly & their heads covered.

This isn't an argument.  This is me getting vented on.

I am a human being capable of logic.  They are not following the scriptures in that example.

In the OCA I witnessed at least 70% of the church dressed this way.  It is not part of the commands of the scriptures.

In ROCOR, it was much more following the scriptures.

Please do not plug words into my fingers.

You're an idiot if you think those are important parts of the faith. In fact, you are just like many Old Believers, you are absolutely idolizing small-t "traditions" and putting them up to the level of theology and doctrine.

Who CARES if women don't cover their heads, who cares if we cross ourselves with three fingers? It doesn't matter!

I guess you believe the scriptures are small t then.  Because covering, modesty, and non-costly array are all in the scriptures AND in the TRADITION of the Eastern Orthodox church.   MODERN Orthodoxy (post 1940) has a lot of this, as well as ecumenism.

Crossing yourself two or three is a different fight.  It matters to the Old believers.

Well, I'm glad I'm not an idiot by that definition, because I don't believe its the most  important part of faith.  It is important, but not the most.   Living by the commands of the scriptures as best as you can is important, but not the MOST.



You're virtually a Protestant in your view of the Scriptures. Protestants are heretics. Protestants are nothing like the Early Christians. That includes the heretical Anabaptists.
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« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2012, 08:24:13 PM »

I got a question, how exactly do we define 'modest'?

Here is a start:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,39871.0.html
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« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2012, 08:24:57 PM »

You're an idiot if you think those are important parts of the faith. In fact, you are just like many Old Believers, you are absolutely idolizing small-t "traditions" and putting them up to the level of theology and doctrine.

Hey hey now stop the name-calling. While I may disagree with some of his theology, I wouldn't insult the man personally. He's a good guy, works hard, takes care of his family. Don't insult the man personally, that's a lowblow move. Anyway, playing Devil's advocate, that popular distinction between 'small-t' and 'big T' tradition doesn't really authoritively exist as far as I know in the Church's official doctrine, it is just a common phrase among the American Orthodox that is used to minimalize the importance of external things so that Protestant converts don't get overwhelmed.

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Who CARES if women don't cover their heads, who cares if we cross ourselves with three fingers? It doesn't matter!

I don't care, but I wouldn't say it doesn't matter. I also don't care about the Calendar controversy and find it very stupid, but I wouldn't say it doesn't matter.
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« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2012, 08:26:00 PM »

I got a question, how exactly do we define 'modest'? I oftentimes notice that many people who advocate dressing 'modestly' seem to confuse 'modest' with old-fashioned. Modest is defined by society and the times. The scriptures order us to dress modestly, but never defines modest other than headcoverings. That is because modesty changes from time to time. We should dress modest in the sense of modesty that our culture determines, not goin by the standard of modesty that people of a particular area might have had in the past. In fact, doing the latter might even be a bad thing, because the foreign type of apparel could draw attention to yourself and thus distract the people around you from worship.

You hit the nail on the head there.

Going by the ancient Roman Empire, if we wanted to be "modest", we'd be wearing togas, and pants (even for men) would be taboo.

Don't the Old Believers also dress very "old fashioned" similarly to the Amish in the U.S.? That is just weird.

88Devin, modesty can be defined by the early Christians, not by the pagan Romans.    The early Christians were the ones against costly array, dressing modestly, and women covering.   Even the EO icons depict women & men this way.

It's not about old fashioned.  It's about plain.  It's about not dressing "worldly" (since the scriptures command us not to be of this world).   Old believers practice this, as do Amish.  
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« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2012, 08:26:57 PM »

Let me summarise a few things:

A guy with some Orthodox backgrounds abandon his faith in favor of some Amish Protestantism. In many threads he writes he is an iconoclast, judaiser, does not believe in Jesus prayer, authority of the clergy etc. He also has outdated views on clothing and family models.

That's understandable and OK.

What is not understandable it's that he keeps saying what is Orthodox and what is not. According to him, the Orthodox things are: headscarves, calendars and antiecumenism. Funnily, icon veneration is not.

And here goes the most funny part:

He watches a documentary about a religious group he never was in contact before and that exists dozens of thousands of kms far from him. He immediately decides they are perfectly Orthodox and plans to join them after watching the film. He also products some arguments for their Orthodoxy and Apostolic succession and whatever.

After he is explained the group captured in the film has no priests he answers there are groups that dress similarly but have priests. That makes think that the most important factors of deciding whether a group is Orthodox or not are (in order of seniority): beards, funny clothes, old calendar, and antiecumenism.

I'm interested in 3 things:

- How will he unite his own iconoclasm and their iconodulism?
- How will he react if he meets them in real life and notices not all of them are medieval cosplayers?
- How will he react when he realises how they call Jesus in their language and not with some "Jeshua" name?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:29:53 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2012, 08:28:37 PM »

I got a question, how exactly do we define 'modest'? I oftentimes notice that many people who advocate dressing 'modestly' seem to confuse 'modest' with old-fashioned. Modest is defined by society and the times. The scriptures order us to dress modestly, but never defines modest other than headcoverings. That is because modesty changes from time to time. We should dress modest in the sense of modesty that our culture determines, not goin by the standard of modesty that people of a particular area might have had in the past. In fact, doing the latter might even be a bad thing, because the foreign type of apparel could draw attention to yourself and thus distract the people around you from worship.

You hit the nail on the head there.

Going by the ancient Roman Empire, if we wanted to be "modest", we'd be wearing togas, and pants (even for men) would be taboo.

Don't the Old Believers also dress very "old fashioned" similarly to the Amish in the U.S.? That is just weird.

88Devin, modesty can be defined by the early Christians, not by the pagan Romans.    The early Christians were the ones against costly array, dressing modestly, and women covering.   Even the EO icons depict women & men this way.

It's not about old fashioned.  It's about plain.  It's about not dressing "worldly" (since the scriptures command us not to be of this world).   Old believers practice this, as do Amish.  

Where the hell do you think you've got the right to judge the pure and undefiled Church of Christ?

No, it isn't about plain, again, you are putting your personal, Protestant-esque interpretation of the Bible onto the Early Christians. The Early Christians were neither Protestants, nor Amish, nor Old Believers.

Of course, I'm sure you believe St. Constantine is a bane on Christianity and led to the "great apostasy"...
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« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2012, 08:30:14 PM »

Let me summarise a few things:

A guy with some Orthodox backgrounds abandon his faith in favor of some Amish Protestantism. In many threads he writes he is an iconoclast, judaiser, does not believe in Jesus prayer, authority of the clergy etc. He also has outdated views on clothing and family models.

That's understandable and OK.

What is not understandable it's that he keeps saying what is Orthodox and what is not. According to him, the Orthodox things are: headscarves, calendars and antiecumenism. Funnily, icon veneration is not.

And here goes the most funny part:

He watches a documentary about a religious group he never was in contact before and that exists dozens of thousands of kms far from him. He immediately decides they are perfectly Orthodox and plans to join them after watching the film. He also products some arguments for their Orthodoxy and Apostolic succession and whatever.

After he is explained the group captured in the film has no priests he answers there are groups that dress similarly but have priests. That makes think that the most important factors of deciding whether a group is Orthodox or not are (in order of seniority): beards, funny clothes, old calendar, and antiecumenism.

I'm interested in two things:

- How will he unite his own iconoclasm and their iconodulism?
- How will he react if he meets them in real life and notices not all of them are medieval cosplayers?
- How will he react when he realises they do call Jesus in their language and not with some "Jeshua" name?

Well put.

And by the way, your English it becoming ridiculously good.
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« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2012, 08:33:53 PM »

Plain doesn't equal old fashioned. In fact, I imagine that going through the trouble to dress old-fashionedly like the 'early Christians' would probably be more costly and lead to a great deal more trouble for both you and those around you than it would be to dress 'plain' and 'modestly' by our modern society's standards.
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« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2012, 08:34:34 PM »

You're virtually a Protestant in your view of the Scriptures. Protestants are heretics. Protestants are nothing like the Early Christians. That includes the heretical Anabaptists.

I don't agree, and neither do many Eastern Orthodox Christians.   Nor do those who are pictured in icons who are dressed exactly as the scriptures say to.  Nor do the Eastern Orthodox Nuns or Monks.

These Russian Orthodox Christians seem to be following the scriptures.


I'm not against you Devin, nor am I against the Orthodox Church.   There are ones who follow the scriptures those who don't.  Those who follow the canon, those who don't (ecumenism( and WORSHIPING with the non-Orthodox is against the Canon of the Holy Apostles - PLAIN & CLEAR))

There are many EO Christians who really do a wonderful job in this.   I would find HOTCA a wonderful example of a "modern" Orthodox church who adheres to the Canon & Scriptures. (from what I've seen)

Old believers from what I can tell, have a wonderful adherence as well.
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« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2012, 08:36:33 PM »

@yeshuaisiam: Can you answer to the 3 questions by me?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:36:45 PM by Michał Kalina » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2012, 08:37:34 PM »

You're virtually a Protestant in your view of the Scriptures. Protestants are heretics. Protestants are nothing like the Early Christians. That includes the heretical Anabaptists.

I don't agree, and neither do many Eastern Orthodox Christians.   Nor do those who are pictured in icons who are dressed exactly as the scriptures say to.  Nor do the Eastern Orthodox Nuns or Monks.

These Russian Orthodox Christians seem to be following the scriptures.


I'm not against you Devin, nor am I against the Orthodox Church.   There are ones who follow the scriptures those who don't.  Those who follow the canon, those who don't (ecumenism( and WORSHIPING with the non-Orthodox is against the Canon of the Holy Apostles - PLAIN & CLEAR))

There are many EO Christians who really do a wonderful job in this.   I would find HOTCA a wonderful example of a "modern" Orthodox church who adheres to the Canon & Scriptures. (from what I've seen)

Old believers from what I can tell, have a wonderful adherence as well.

You're so weird, and stupid, and wrong.

Why the hell don't you go become a heretical Protestant?

You're not Orthodox, and it doesn't matter if you once were and it doesn't matter how long you were. You aren't Orthodox and therefore you cannot say what Orthodoxy is and is not. You've lost that right.
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« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2012, 08:38:40 PM »

Notice the only thing to which he refers as 'following the Scriptures' relates to women and head-coverings?

Would he have turned up his nose at St. Mary of Egypt?
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« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2012, 08:40:11 PM »

Notice the only thing to which he refers as 'following the Scriptures' relates to women and head-coverings?

Would he have turned up his nose at St. Mary of Egypt?

I also love how he ignores the clothing of all the Priests, Bishops and Civil Authorities in Icons. Or how he ignores the clothing of many others in iconography which isn't simple.

If he thinks the clothing shown on men like St. Paul, St. Peter, the Theotokos and others was "plain" for their day, he obviously knows nothing about history. They are displayed in clothing which would have been pretty "rich" for their day.
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« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2012, 08:41:03 PM »

Only direct instructions for how to dress 'modestly' in the Scriptures is headcoverings and not dressing costly. I don't really see how wearing a headcovering and not dressing costly automatically translates to dressing like someone out of Little House on the Prairie. You can follow these direct instructions and then dress modestly by society's standard.
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« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2012, 08:43:53 PM »

You're virtually a Protestant in your view of the Scriptures. Protestants are heretics. Protestants are nothing like the Early Christians. That includes the heretical Anabaptists.

I don't agree, and neither do many Eastern Orthodox Christians.   Nor do those who are pictured in icons who are dressed exactly as the scriptures say to.  Nor do the Eastern Orthodox Nuns or Monks.

These Russian Orthodox Christians seem to be following the scriptures.


I'm not against you Devin, nor am I against the Orthodox Church.   There are ones who follow the scriptures those who don't.  Those who follow the canon, those who don't (ecumenism( and WORSHIPING with the non-Orthodox is against the Canon of the Holy Apostles - PLAIN & CLEAR))

There are many EO Christians who really do a wonderful job in this.   I would find HOTCA a wonderful example of a "modern" Orthodox church who adheres to the Canon & Scriptures. (from what I've seen)

Old believers from what I can tell, have a wonderful adherence as well.

You're so weird, and stupid, and wrong.

Why the hell don't you go become a heretical Protestant?

You're not Orthodox, and it doesn't matter if you once were and it doesn't matter how long you were. You aren't Orthodox and therefore you cannot say what Orthodoxy is and is not. You've lost that right.

Before you post in anger in the future, watch the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAShaI2vgV8

It's right up your alley being about Halo and might help you Walk on Sunshine.

Tootles!
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« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2012, 08:45:31 PM »

You're virtually a Protestant in your view of the Scriptures. Protestants are heretics. Protestants are nothing like the Early Christians. That includes the heretical Anabaptists.

I don't agree, and neither do many Eastern Orthodox Christians.   Nor do those who are pictured in icons who are dressed exactly as the scriptures say to.  Nor do the Eastern Orthodox Nuns or Monks.

These Russian Orthodox Christians seem to be following the scriptures.


I'm not against you Devin, nor am I against the Orthodox Church.   There are ones who follow the scriptures those who don't.  Those who follow the canon, those who don't (ecumenism( and WORSHIPING with the non-Orthodox is against the Canon of the Holy Apostles - PLAIN & CLEAR))

There are many EO Christians who really do a wonderful job in this.   I would find HOTCA a wonderful example of a "modern" Orthodox church who adheres to the Canon & Scriptures. (from what I've seen)

Old believers from what I can tell, have a wonderful adherence as well.

You're so weird, and stupid, and wrong.

Why the hell don't you go become a heretical Protestant?

You're not Orthodox, and it doesn't matter if you once were and it doesn't matter how long you were. You aren't Orthodox and therefore you cannot say what Orthodoxy is and is not. You've lost that right.

Before you post in anger in the future, watch the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAShaI2vgV8

It's right up your alley being about Halo and might help you Walk on Sunshine.

Tootles!

Just shut up orthonorm, please...

Like I said, why don't you just tell us if you are Orthodox or not? If you aren't, your opinion doesn't matter.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2012, 08:46:07 PM by 88Devin12 » Logged
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« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2012, 08:47:04 PM »

Let me summarise a few things:

A guy with some Orthodox backgrounds abandon his faith in favor of some Amish Protestantism. In many threads he writes he is an iconoclast, judaiser, does not believe in Jesus prayer, authority of the clergy etc. He also has outdated views on clothing and family models.

That's understandable and OK.

What is not understandable it's that he keeps saying what is Orthodox and what is not. According to him, the Orthodox things are: headscarves, calendars and antiecumenism. Funnily, icon veneration is not.

And here goes the most funny part:

He watches a documentary about a religious group he never was in contact before and that exists dozens of thousands of kms far from him. He immediately decides they are perfectly Orthodox and plans to join them after watching the film. He also products some arguments for their Orthodoxy and Apostolic succession and whatever.

After he is explained the group captured in the film has no priests he answers there are groups that dress similarly but have priests. That makes think that the most important factors of deciding whether a group is Orthodox or not are (in order of seniority): beards, funny clothes, old calendar, and antiecumenism.

I'm interested in 3 things:

- How will he unite his own iconoclasm and their iconodulism?
- How will he react if he meets them in real life and notices not all of them are medieval cosplayers?
- How will he react when he realises how they call Jesus in their language and not with some "Jeshua" name?

Finally somebody formalizes the Paradox.

How do you worship in communion with Bishops who engage in ecumensim?

How can you receive communion from the Orthodox in violation of that Canon of the Holy Apostles?
(clergy worshiping with non-Orthodox calls for deposing & excommunicating via Canon of Holy Apostles)

How do you venerate that which GOD has forbidden man to create?

So as much as I may be confused, perhaps there are no answers.

Sorry guys, I don't just get spoon fed something and go with it.   I don't care who you are, you know some of the stuff I post has rough points, or else it would not arouse such hostile responses.

yes I have problems with icons.  Read the 10 commandments.
yes I love the Orthodox worship & prayers in many ways.
yes I believe we should not call priests "father" bishops "master", because God told us not to.
yes I believe above all ecumenism is the greatest of all heresy.
yes I like how the old believers and Amish adhere more to the scriptures in their daily lives.

So rather than trying to rip apart my "confusion", perhaps if somebody would like to answer one simple question without hostility.

IF your bishop engages in WORSHIP with non-Orthodox that violates the Canons of the Holy Apostles, which calls for them to be defrocked and deposed - then HOW can you justify being with that bishop?

Can you really blame me for being confused?

Perhaps I'm just a person brave enough to walk away to re-analyze "what in the world" is going on.
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« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2012, 08:48:18 PM »

To think, all this could be avoided if we just came to Church naked Smiley I could get more sleep in the morning too because I wouldn't have to iron my clothes and get dressed.

EDIT: Okay yeshuasiam, I lost you after ecumenism. I mean, I support your anti-ecumenism, but all those other doubts seem downright silly and I got over those a long time ago.
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
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« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2012, 08:49:07 PM »

Only direct instructions for how to dress 'modestly' in the Scriptures is headcoverings and not dressing costly. I don't really see how wearing a headcovering and not dressing costly automatically translates to dressing like someone out of Little House on the Prairie. You can follow these direct instructions and then dress modestly by society's standard.

This is true.  Often home-made clothing does appear this way.  Also its about not being in competition with fellow church goers (this is an Amish practice).   Somebody doesn't wear "loud" colors to stand out.

I don't fully agree with the Anabaptists, I just want to make this point.
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« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2012, 08:50:21 PM »

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Even the EO icons depict women & men this way.

St Basil the Holy Fool of Moscow, to whom the largest church in Red Square is dedicated:





Sts Onuphrius the Great and Peter of Athos:



St Mary of Egypt:




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« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2012, 08:50:55 PM »

Notice the only thing to which he refers as 'following the Scriptures' relates to women and head-coverings?

Would he have turned up his nose at St. Mary of Egypt?

Kind of like when I referred to the Oath of the Nazarite?

I guess I was talking about women sticking their beards into a head scarf.
I also referred to monks following the modest dress as well, along with many clergy (which are men).
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« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2012, 08:51:20 PM »

Judge not, lest ye be judged: for the judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged.

Yesh wants to follow the Scriptures, let him follow that one.
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« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2012, 08:52:50 PM »

Judge not, lest ye be judged: for the judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged.

Yesh wants to follow the Scriptures, let him follow that one.

He wants to follow the Protestant "Sola Scriptura" scriptures where they are infallible and to be interpreted absolutely literally. He is a heretic just like they are.
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« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2012, 08:53:21 PM »

How about St. George the Dragonslayer who's depicted wearing fancy armor war-garments?
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« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2012, 08:54:24 PM »

Quote
Even the EO icons depict women & men this way.

St Basil the Holy Fool of Moscow, to whom the largest church in Red Square is dedicated:



Sts Onuphrius the Great and Peter of Athos:



St Mary of Egypt:






It's funny how people make points, and take the 5% examples to make them....

Okay show me baptism icons to show me men half naked.... Go ahead.
Show me martyr icons and those oppressed to make a point.

Why not just show me an icon of Christ and how immodest he was while being baptized?  
This isn't what I was talking about.

Examples from the rarest of the rare of women icons will be next.
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« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2012, 08:55:16 PM »

Judge not, lest ye be judged: for the judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged.

Yesh wants to follow the Scriptures, let him follow that one.

He wants to follow the Protestant "Sola Scriptura" scriptures where they are infallible and to be interpreted absolutely literally. He is a heretic just like they are.

That's why I talk about the church canon on NUMEROUS posts now.
Devin... WOW.
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« Reply #75 on: November 17, 2012, 08:57:19 PM »

Yesh reminds me of the Pharisee, who rambled on about how glad he was that God made him better than the ordinary slobs, where the Publican just asked God for mercy.
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« Reply #76 on: November 17, 2012, 08:57:52 PM »

How about St. George the Dragonslayer who's depicted wearing fancy armor war-garments?

Did he really wear it?  Did he really ride a horse and kill a serpent?

There are always examples to make a point.

Look in general at icons.

Plain dress.  Not costly array.  Modest.  Women covering heads.  (still waiting for the RARE example of the woman not covering their head).
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« Reply #77 on: November 17, 2012, 08:58:06 PM »

Yeah St. Mary of Egypt is a real low profile figure in Orthodoxy.

Glad someone posted an icon of her, otherwise I would have never known she existed.
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« Reply #78 on: November 17, 2012, 08:59:48 PM »

In any case, it looks like the ROC has rescinded the old anathemas and recognizes the Old Believers as a valid part of the Church.

OBs in union with Moscow or ROCOR are. Not others.
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« Reply #79 on: November 17, 2012, 09:00:01 PM »

How about St. George the Dragonslayer who's depicted wearing fancy armor war-garments?

Did he really wear it?  Did he really ride a horse and kill a serpent?

There are always examples to make a point.

Look in general at icons.

Plain dress.  Not costly array.  Modest.  Women covering heads.  (still waiting for the RARE example of the woman not covering their head).

You lack an understanding of what an icon is (that's OK most people do, but you are more wronger than most).

They are not illustrations on what is in fashion for this eon.
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« Reply #80 on: November 17, 2012, 09:00:11 PM »

Yes, Yesh, St. George really did ride a horse and kill things. That was his job. He served his country.
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« Reply #81 on: November 17, 2012, 09:01:55 PM »

So rather than trying to rip apart my "confusion", perhaps if somebody would like to answer one simple question without hostility.

IF your bishop engages in WORSHIP with non-Orthodox that violates the Canons of the Holy Apostles, which calls for them to be defrocked and deposed - then HOW can you justify being with that bishop?

That is not a good question.  Define "engages in Worship?"  You say that you are a son of a EO Priest - did you see your Bishop engage in what you describe?  If so, name the date, place and occasion.

There is nothing that anyone can say that will change your attitude. 

Can you really blame me for being confused?

Perhaps I'm just a person brave enough to walk away to re-analyze "what in the world" is going on.

There must be that one incident that incensed you so much to take the hard-line approach and even refer to the Bishop's vestments as icons not worthy of veneration.
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« Reply #82 on: November 17, 2012, 09:03:11 PM »

Yesh reminds me of the Pharisee, who rambled on about how glad he was that God made him better than the ordinary slobs, where the Publican just asked God for mercy.

I'm sorry if I came off that way to you.

Then I will stop "rambling".

I AM DONE WITH THIS THREAD.
It's not helping anything...
I think we've all made our points.


AGAIN, I'M DONE with the thread.

Chill.
Please chill.

God bless all of you.  

I'm going to go make some ice cream.  Ice cream is simple.

Please always keep me in your prayers.
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« Reply #83 on: November 17, 2012, 09:05:34 PM »

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Okay show me baptism icons to show me men half naked.... Go ahead.
Show me martyr icons and those oppressed to make a point.

Why not just show me an icon of Christ and how immodest he was while being baptized? 
This isn't what I was talking about.



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« Reply #84 on: November 17, 2012, 09:09:57 PM »

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Okay show me baptism icons to show me men half naked.... Go ahead.
Show me martyr icons and those oppressed to make a point.

Why not just show me an icon of Christ and how immodest he was while being baptized? 
This isn't what I was talking about.





Figure you would pull some example up. I might not be Orthodox enough for Devin, but even I have see such examples.

What the general consensus on clothing (with or without) for Baptism through the history of "Christianity"?

Was there time and place where the Baptized were naked and then given their robe after?

My memory isn't very keen on this, but I vaguely recall this being practiced at one time somewhere.
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« Reply #85 on: November 17, 2012, 09:12:36 PM »

I think so. They used to have the baptistry in another room, so no one but the priest and deacon would see you at the moment in question.
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« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2012, 09:21:49 PM »

Hippolytus, in On the Apostolic Tradition, records in detail how baptism was done in the early Church.  No clothes allowed.
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« Reply #87 on: November 17, 2012, 09:27:08 PM »

How about St. George the Dragonslayer who's depicted wearing fancy armor war-garments?

Did he really wear it?  Did he really ride a horse and kill a serpent?

There are always examples to make a point.

Look in general at icons.

Plain dress.  Not costly array.  Modest.  Women covering heads.  (still waiting for the RARE example of the woman not covering their head).

You lack an understanding of what an icon is (that's OK most people do, but you are more wronger than most).

They are not illustrations on what is in fashion for this eon.

If you was canonized, would you be wearing old timey robes in the icon?
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« Reply #88 on: November 17, 2012, 11:12:40 PM »

How about St. George the Dragonslayer who's depicted wearing fancy armor war-garments?

Did he really wear it?  Did he really ride a horse and kill a serpent?

There are always examples to make a point.

Look in general at icons.

Plain dress.  Not costly array.  Modest.  Women covering heads.  (still waiting for the RARE example of the woman not covering their head).

You lack an understanding of what an icon is (that's OK most people do, but you are more wronger than most).

They are not illustrations on what is in fashion for this eon.

If you was canonized, would you be wearing old timey robes in the icon?

Subjunctive: were.

And some already believe me to be a saint.

I would probably be wearing whatever I was in when I died, since I hope to die while asleep, I will be naked but swaddled while in this:



Highly recommended website and book.

Forgot to add the url:

http://www.achristianending.com/
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« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2012, 01:07:56 AM »

Let me summarise a few things:

A guy with some Orthodox backgrounds abandon his faith in favor of some Amish Protestantism. In many threads he writes he is an iconoclast, judaiser, does not believe in Jesus prayer, authority of the clergy etc. He also has outdated views on clothing and family models.

That's understandable and OK.

What is not understandable it's that he keeps saying what is Orthodox and what is not. According to him, the Orthodox things are: headscarves, calendars and antiecumenism. Funnily, icon veneration is not.

And here goes the most funny part:

He watches a documentary about a religious group he never was in contact before and that exists dozens of thousands of kms far from him. He immediately decides they are perfectly Orthodox and plans to join them after watching the film. He also products some arguments for their Orthodoxy and Apostolic succession and whatever.

After he is explained the group captured in the film has no priests he answers there are groups that dress similarly but have priests. That makes think that the most important factors of deciding whether a group is Orthodox or not are (in order of seniority): beards, funny clothes, old calendar, and antiecumenism.

I'm interested in 3 things:

- How will he unite his own iconoclasm and their iconodulism?
- How will he react if he meets them in real life and notices not all of them are medieval cosplayers?
- How will he react when he realises how they call Jesus in their language and not with some "Jeshua" name?

Finally somebody formalizes the Paradox.

How do you worship in communion with Bishops who engage in ecumensim?

How can you receive communion from the Orthodox in violation of that Canon of the Holy Apostles?
(clergy worshiping with non-Orthodox calls for deposing & excommunicating via Canon of Holy Apostles)

How do you venerate that which GOD has forbidden man to create?

So as much as I may be confused, perhaps there are no answers.

Sorry guys, I don't just get spoon fed something and go with it.   I don't care who you are, you know some of the stuff I post has rough points, or else it would not arouse such hostile responses.

yes I have problems with icons.  Read the 10 commandments.
yes I love the Orthodox worship & prayers in many ways.
yes I believe we should not call priests "father" bishops "master", because God told us not to.
yes I believe above all ecumenism is the greatest of all heresy.
yes I like how the old believers and Amish adhere more to the scriptures in their daily lives.

So rather than trying to rip apart my "confusion", perhaps if somebody would like to answer one simple question without hostility.

IF your bishop engages in WORSHIP with non-Orthodox that violates the Canons of the Holy Apostles, which calls for them to be defrocked and deposed - then HOW can you justify being with that bishop?

Can you really blame me for being confused?

Perhaps I'm just a person brave enough to walk away to re-analyze "what in the world" is going on.
So, essentially what you advocate on this forum is NOT Orthodoxy; rather, it's yeshuaisiamodoxy.
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