Topic: Typical entrance of a new RC poster

[mike]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

[Jetavan]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

Verily, you have revealed the truly nefarious hidden machinations of the ungodly.

[Cyrillic]

It sounds familiar.

[Wyatt]

Very accurate observation. Before anyone on here decides to show their hyperdox side to a new member, they should remember this thread and think again. In their being overzealous, they are quite possibly driving away people from joining your Church, which I'm sure isn't what any of you really want.

[Cyrillic]

Protestants are better than you!

Yes, the Orthodox do not have such an original and talented cartoonist as Jack Chick 

[mike]

Very accurate observation. Before anyone on here decides to show their hyperdox side to a new member, they should remember this thread and think again. In their being overzealous, they are quite possibly driving away people from joining your Church, which I'm sure isn't what any of you really want.

Such posters don't intend to join the Church but to "unite".

[Eastern Mind]

condomists

I can't even pronounce that. I keep saying "condiments" 

[Ignatius II]

I would have to say that the OP's statements are relatively true in many cases.  I think there is a certain amount of defensiveness that oftentimes tends to be expressed from both sides and it regresses into a "oh yeah, well dad can beat up your dad" kind of attitude.  I would have to say that in my own case, probably greater than 95% of responses to me have been kind, thoughtful and considerate.  There are a few individuals (as there are in all cross-sections of people) who immediately react (almost resentfully) negatively to any individuals who aren't Orthodox or share their exact views.  In the same light outsiders, who are those Roman Catholic or whatever may also be coming here to "tell you, why you are wrong".

  I think visitors should come with an open mind to learn about the Orthodox faith and not be here to "convert".  It would also be good for practicing Orthodox, and long time forum members to be patient with RC in that many are going to ask seeming "stupid" or "attacking" questions.  I think in many cases, they may ask those questions, naively not actually intending to be attacking.  As we all know there are certain buzz words or topics that can be insightful and they simply may not be aware of it.

  I would hope it would not be the intent to drive away sincere inquirers.  As I said, these folks may simply be referencing themselves from what they have come to know as true, at this time.  Perhaps if they are met with this understanding and allowed to stumble a bit, they may come to see Orthodox in a positive fashion.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanks.

[katherineofdixie]

I would have to say that the OP's statements are relatively true in many cases.  I think there is a certain amount of defensiveness that oftentimes tends to be expressed from both sides and it regresses into a "oh yeah, well dad can beat up your dad" kind of attitude.  I would have to say that in my own case, probably greater than 95% of responses to me have been kind, thoughtful and considerate.  There are a few individuals (as there are in all cross-sections of people) who immediately react (almost resentfully) negatively to any individuals who aren't Orthodox or share their exact views.  In the same light outsiders, who are those Roman Catholic or whatever may also be coming here to "tell you, why you are wrong".

  I think visitors should come with an open mind to learn about the Orthodox faith and not be here to "convert".  It would also be good for practicing Orthodox, and long time forum members to be patient with RC in that many are going to ask seeming "stupid" or "attacking" questions.  I think in many cases, they may ask those questions, naively not actually intending to be attacking.  As we all know there are certain buzz words or topics that can be insightful and they simply may not be aware of it.

  I would hope it would not be the intent to drive away sincere inquirers.  As I said, these folks may simply be referencing themselves from what they have come to know as true, at this time.  Perhaps if they are met with this understanding and allowed to stumble a bit, they may come to see Orthodox in a positive fashion.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanks.

While not excusing bad temper or impatience or garden-variety snark, I would offer that it does wear on one to keep answering (or defending more like) the same questions - and not just from RCs, but Protestants as well ("You worship Mary! And idols! And call men 'Father'! And think your works will save you!")
Also I have noticed a sort of attitude on the part of RCs that it's only a matter of a few details that separate us. And if we Orthodox would only quit being such soreheads and so unreasonable everything would be hunkydory. That naturally rankles a little.

[Papist]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

I will admit that I was not the most gracious guest here when I started posting on this forum, and I have certainly had my moments. But I'm trying to behave myself better. 

That being said, many Catholics are absolutely shocked to when they realize there are some rabid anti-Catholic EOs. Most are not that way. But then you have certain characters, like those who call us "Romanists" or "The Vatican."

[jmbejdl]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

I will admit that I was not the most gracious guest here when I started posting on this forum, and I have certainly had my moments. But I'm trying to behave myself better.  

That being said, many Catholics are absolutely shocked to when they realize there are some rabid anti-Catholic EOs. Most are not that way. But then you have certain characters, like those who call us "Romanists" or "The Vatican."

Many Roman Catholics also seem to be shocked that we generally won't admit that we're 'just the same' and I've quite often known RCs (not necessarily here) to take simple 'No, our disagreement with Rome on X is not trivial' responses as though they were rabid anti-Catholic attacks. It shouldn't be news to Roman Catholics that we have differences with Rome that we really believe are fundamental and that we believe that it is Rome which has departed from the Church, not us. Expressing that is not 'rabidly anti-Catholic' (though I certainly don't deny that such people exist). Whilst I agree that we should try to be welcoming to interested RCs, it would also help if RC guests could try to understand that. I'm not sure which is worse, RCs who want tell us how we're wrong or those who think we're all 'just the same really'. I think I have more respect for the former and feel more provoked by the latter, though I hope I tend to keep such provocation to myself rather than join in with responses such as outlined in the OP.

James

[FormerReformer]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

I will admit that I was not the most gracious guest here when I started posting on this forum, and I have certainly had my moments. But I'm trying to behave myself better.  

That being said, many Catholics are absolutely shocked to when they realize there are some rabid anti-Catholic EOs. Most are not that way. But then you have certain characters, like those who call us "Romanists" or "The Vatican."

Many Roman Catholics also seem to be shocked that we generally won't admit that we're 'just the same' and I've quite often known RCs (not necessarily here) to take simple 'No, our disagreement with Rome on X is not trivial' responses as though they were rabid anti-Catholic attacks. It shouldn't be news to Roman Catholics that we have differences with Rome that we really believe are fundamental and that we believe that it is Rome which has departed from the Church, not us. Expressing that is not 'rabidly anti-Catholic' (though I certainly don't deny that such people exist). Whilst I agree that we should try to be welcoming to interested RCs, it would also help if RC guests could try to understand that. I'm not sure which is worse, RCs who want tell us how we're wrong or those who think we're all 'just the same really'. I think I have more respect for the former and feel more provoked by the latter, though I hope I tend to keep such provocation to myself rather than join in with responses such as outlined in the OP.

James

I don't think it helps that some start off with a bit of misinformation along the lines of "Our bishops say it's okay to take Communion at your church". Any explanation as to why it doesn't quite work like can be very hard to explain in a light that isn't perceived as an attack.

[Papist]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

I will admit that I was not the most gracious guest here when I started posting on this forum, and I have certainly had my moments. But I'm trying to behave myself better.  

That being said, many Catholics are absolutely shocked to when they realize there are some rabid anti-Catholic EOs. Most are not that way. But then you have certain characters, like those who call us "Romanists" or "The Vatican."

Many Roman Catholics also seem to be shocked that we generally won't admit that we're 'just the same' and I've quite often known RCs (not necessarily here) to take simple 'No, our disagreement with Rome on X is not trivial' responses as though they were rabid anti-Catholic attacks. It shouldn't be news to Roman Catholics that we have differences with Rome that we really believe are fundamental and that we believe that it is Rome which has departed from the Church, not us. Expressing that is not 'rabidly anti-Catholic' (though I certainly don't deny that such people exist). Whilst I agree that we should try to be welcoming to interested RCs, it would also help if RC guests could try to understand that. I'm not sure which is worse, RCs who want tell us how we're wrong or those who think we're all 'just the same really'. I think I have more respect for the former and feel more provoked by the latter, though I hope I tend to keep such provocation to myself rather than join in with responses such as outlined in the OP.

James

I agree that there is a difference between those who disagree with the Catholic faith, and those who are just rude.

[J Michael]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

I will admit that I was not the most gracious guest here when I started posting on this forum, and I have certainly had my moments. But I'm trying to behave myself better.  

That being said, many Catholics are absolutely shocked to when they realize there are some rabid anti-Catholic EOs. Most are not that way. But then you have certain characters, like those who call us "Romanists" or "The Vatican."

Many Roman Catholics also seem to be shocked that we generally won't admit that we're 'just the same' and I've quite often known RCs (not necessarily here) to take simple 'No, our disagreement with Rome on X is not trivial' responses as though they were rabid anti-Catholic attacks. It shouldn't be news to Roman Catholics that we have differences with Rome that we really believe are fundamental and that we believe that it is Rome which has departed from the Church, not us. Expressing that is not 'rabidly anti-Catholic' (though I certainly don't deny that such people exist). Whilst I agree that we should try to be welcoming to interested RCs, it would also help if RC guests could try to understand that. I'm not sure which is worse, RCs who want tell us how we're wrong or those who think we're all 'just the same really'. I think I have more respect for the former and feel more provoked by the latter, though I hope I tend to keep such provocation to myself rather than join in with responses such as outlined in the OP.

James

I agree that there is a difference between those who disagree with the Catholic faith, and those who are just rude.

There's a third category--those who are ignorant about the Catholic faith.  (Btw, that includes both Catholics and Orthodox.)

[katherineofdixie]

Many Roman Catholics also seem to be shocked that we generally won't admit that we're 'just the same' and I've quite often known RCs (not necessarily here) to take simple 'No, our disagreement with Rome on X is not trivial' responses as though they were rabid anti-Catholic attacks. It shouldn't be news to Roman Catholics that we have differences with Rome that we really believe are fundamental and that we believe that it is Rome which has departed from the Church, not us. Expressing that is not 'rabidly anti-Catholic' (though I certainly don't deny that such people exist). Whilst I agree that we should try to be welcoming to interested RCs, it would also help if RC guests could try to understand that. I'm not sure which is worse, RCs who want tell us how we're wrong or those who think we're all 'just the same really'. I think I have more respect for the former and feel more provoked by the latter, though I hope I tend to keep such provocation to myself rather than join in with responses such as outlined in the OP.

James

While there may be a few rabidly anti-RC posters in cyberspace, I have yet to meet a real genuine one in RL. Most Orthodox don't even think about RCs or the Catholic Church at all.

[orthonorm]

But then you have certain characters, like those who call us . . . "The Vatican."

I hope you are not referring to me.

I would be hard pressed to find an inanimate object as . . . wait this is not private?

Curses!

[Papist]

But then you have certain characters, like those who call us . . . "The Vatican."

I hope you are not referring to me.

I would be hard pressed to find an inanimate object as . . . wait this is not private?

Curses!

I wasn't. I don't think you and I have ever really discussed the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

[ialmisry]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

I will admit that I was not the most gracious guest here when I started posting on this forum, and I have certainly had my moments. But I'm trying to behave myself better. 

That being said, many Catholics are absolutely shocked to when they realize there are some rabid anti-Catholic EOs. Most are not that way. But then you have certain characters, like those who call us "Romanists" or "The Vatican."

http://www.vatican.va/phome_en.htm

[ialmisry]

Very accurate observation. Before anyone on here decides to show their hyperdox side to a new member, they should remember this thread and think again. In their being overzealous, they are quite possibly driving away people from joining your Church

Hardly

All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity.

which I'm sure isn't what any of you really want.

Killing trolls?  I'd rather be doing a host of other things, but when duty calls...

[ialmisry]

I would have to say that the OP's statements are relatively true in many cases.  I think there is a certain amount of defensiveness that oftentimes tends to be expressed from both sides and it regresses into a "oh yeah, well dad can beat up your dad" kind of attitude.  I would have to say that in my own case, probably greater than 95% of responses to me have been kind, thoughtful and considerate.  There are a few individuals (as there are in all cross-sections of people) who immediately react (almost resentfully) negatively to any individuals who aren't Orthodox or share their exact views.  In the same light outsiders, who are those Roman Catholic or whatever may also be coming here to "tell you, why you are wrong".

  I think visitors should come with an open mind to learn about the Orthodox faith and not be here to "convert".  It would also be good for practicing Orthodox, and long time forum members to be patient with RC in that many are going to ask seeming "stupid" or "attacking" questions.  I think in many cases, they may ask those questions, naively not actually intending to be attacking.  As we all know there are certain buzz words or topics that can be insightful and they simply may not be aware of it.

  I would hope it would not be the intent to drive away sincere inquirers.  As I said, these folks may simply be referencing themselves from what they have come to know as true, at this time.  Perhaps if they are met with this understanding and allowed to stumble a bit, they may come to see Orthodox in a positive fashion.

Just my 2 cents.
Thanks.

While not excusing bad temper or impatience or garden-variety snark, I would offer that it does wear on one to keep answering (or defending more like) the same questions - and not just from RCs, but Protestants as well ("You worship Mary! And idols! And call men 'Father'! And think your works will save you!")
Also I have noticed a sort of attitude on the part of RCs that it's only a matter of a few details that separate us. And if we Orthodox would only quit being such soreheads and so unreasonable everything would be hunkydory. That naturally rankles a little.

+2

[Nephi]

What do you think about my observations?

They're spot on, unfortunately.

[orthonorm]

But then you have certain characters, like those who call us . . . "The Vatican."

I hope you are not referring to me.

I would be hard pressed to find an inanimate object as . . . wait this is not private?

Curses!

I wasn't. I don't think you and I have ever really discussed the differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

I was making a joke of sorts about being rude to you for who you are not what you are.

Hate the sinner not the sin as the book says.

In any case, based on my posts around here I doubt you will have found me saying anything negative about RCs as such. (The debacle of the word wide criminal conspiracy to abuse children and clasping to a theological method which was dead on arrival is about all I can muster a care about.)

As an American, we should all give proper gratitude and respect especially to RC women who have done arguably more than their fair share of thankless work to make this free-for-all less harsh than it could be.

I've never been an RC but I owe a lot to many RCs for being alive today. That is not hyperbole.

So if I haven't said enough, thanks to you all.

[orthonorm]

Hey Papist is tiring in the politics side of things, but I never really got the animus toward him or EM.

Always seems like very well meaning folks and quite edifying. EM might be given to more chutzpah than most care for, but I dig it.

She has quite the sense of humor and has read more real theology than most around here.

So if you are lurking, EM, hope you are well.

[orthonorm]

Papist,

Someone directed me to this thread.

Here are some posts from it:

Are there any catholics here that would be ok with removing the filioque? Just curious...

Papist once said he was. I dunno if that has changed or what.

Really, the way the RCs teach the filioque, who cares. It is inline with Orthodoxy. People can argue forever how it came about and whatever, but every RC I've known who gives 2 cents would agree with the Orthodox teaching on the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Father ontologically and from the Son within time.

How many prayers do we pray to the Ghost of the Son? I do more than a few times I think a day or week or month or however often I am actually praying.

Everyone knows Papal infallibility is pretty much around which all things turn.

It would be an act of God for that to change, like raising the dead.

The Orthodox would do well to show that an infallible head of the Church is not necessary by settling some of the more ridiculous antics by its own leaders over authority and prestige.

The bolded part was "liked" by Orthodox including Isa.

Are there any catholics here that would be ok with removing the filioque? Just curious...

I would be ok with it being changed to "through the Son" to more clearly express what we mean.

In simple and non-fight with Isa bickering language, why not just drop it?

I mean ,if unity stood in the balance, everything, including Papal infallibility had been resolved and the only thing standing in the way of the unity was simply dropping the filioque and you got to decide what to do:

Would you drop it?

Or keep it in spite of all other matters being resolved and keep the division?

We can't drop it because its true.

So we can add anything to the Creed if it is "true" and then not drop it in virtue of that?

Like the amount of jolly ranchers I ate last year? (The answer is zero, BTW.)

Oh well Papist, I had higher hopes . . .

Dropping it would be damaging to the faithful. Some might be scandalized.

In the world I suggested, in the thought experiment, you think the unity brought forth over a single dispute would not outweigh the "scandal".

And really, it seems the RCs would delight perhaps in this sorta scandal given your recent ones.

As noted above, I ain't got no problem with the way you all explain it. I don't care if that is how it started.

In our adult education thing at the parish, a disgruntled RC tried bringing up the filioque as the work of Satan basically.

Be happy, that I defended you all to the last breath. Because it is true and charitable.

I think I scandalized nearly everyone else in the room for my comments about the EOs desire not to listen to what RCs TODAY say about the filioque.

Scandal ain't always bad. Truth and love.

Well, I really appreciate your honesty, and the more I think about it, if dropping it from the Creed, while maitaining it as an article of faith, would bring unity, then I wouldn't be against it. Not everything we believe is in the Creed. Thank you for giving me some food for thought.

FWIW.

[Christopher McAvoy]

I'll never get over the fact that there's not going to be as many Orthodox primary schools as Latin Roman/Catholic ones.

Would the average greek-american lawyer today have been as well educated were it not for the RC schools?

As for "condominists" thats just the liberal attitude of certain bishops, synods and posters on this forum. Some teachings are Orthodox ones no matter what the rest of your beliefs are. Abstinence from marital relations is the only acceptable Orthodox teaching for avoiding conception of children, which in the first place should not be avoided (thats why half of Europe, including Greece needs immigrants from Asia and African to come in and save them from economic collapse.)

If you have no children, or even just one or two, you have no future as a society, call it science if you like, its the truth.

[mike]

As for "condominists" thats just the liberal attitude of certain bishops, synods and posters on this forum.

I would say, inertion from some former (?) Roman Catholics.

[ialmisry]

I'll never get over the fact that there's not going to be as many Orthodox primary schools as Latin Roman/Catholic ones.

Would the average greek-american lawyer today have been as well educated were it not for the RC schools?

Lord help us if "the average greek-american lawyer today" is taken as the ideal.  I knew a number when I was in said school.

As for "condominists" thats just the liberal attitude of certain bishops, synods and posters on this forum. Some teachings are Orthodox ones no matter what the rest of your beliefs are. Abstinence from marital relations is the only acceptable Orthodox teaching for avoiding conception of children, which in the first place should not be avoided (thats why half of Europe, including Greece needs immigrants from Asia and African to come in and save them from economic collapse.)

You're wrong, but that's on another thread.

If you have no children, or even just one or two, you have no future as a society, call it science if you like, its the truth.

Persons are not means to an end.

[Ignatius II]

While not excusing bad temper or impatience or garden-variety snark, I would offer that it does wear on one to keep answering (or defending more like) the same questions - and not just from RCs, but Protestants as well ("You worship Mary! And idols! And call men 'Father'! And think your works will save you!")
Also I have noticed a sort of attitude on the part of RCs that it's only a matter of a few details that separate us. And if we Orthodox would only quit being such soreheads and so unreasonable everything would be hunkydory. That naturally rankles a little.
[/quote]

Catherine-

 I understand where you are coming from, and I agree you have heard many of these statements or arguments many times, but also remember the inquirer may be noting these observations for the first time.  Aside from addressing Orthodoxy, let me relate to a somewhat similar comparison from another perspective. Over the past 30 yrs I have trained hundreds of people in my particular profession, and from  novices I usually get the same questions.  They are starting from zero, not the years of experience I have, so I can't expect them to have the same background experience to pull from, that I have.  Granted, they should ask questions respectfully, but then again they may not feel they are being disrespectful.  back to Orthodoxy, many stumble on to it and want to get all the "but why" questions answered in a paragraph. Could just be enthusiasm.

[Peter J]

Also I have noticed a sort of attitude on the part of RCs that it's only a matter of a few details that separate us. And if we Orthodox would only quit being such soreheads and so unreasonable everything would be hunkydory. That naturally rankles a little.

Yes, there certainly are such Catholics. The thing, oftentimes those are the Catholics that Orthodox most readily call friend.

[Peter J]

Many Roman Catholics also seem to be shocked that we generally won't admit that we're 'just the same' and I've quite often known RCs (not necessarily here) to take simple 'No, our disagreement with Rome on X is not trivial' responses as though they were rabid anti-Catholic attacks. It shouldn't be news to Roman Catholics that we have differences with Rome that we really believe are fundamental and that we believe that it is Rome which has departed from the Church, not us. Expressing that is not 'rabidly anti-Catholic' (though I certainly don't deny that such people exist). Whilst I agree that we should try to be welcoming to interested RCs, it would also help if RC guests could try to understand that. I'm not sure which is worse, RCs who want tell us how we're wrong or those who think we're all 'just the same really'. I think I have more respect for the former and feel more provoked by the latter, though I hope I tend to keep such provocation to myself rather than join in with responses such as outlined in the OP.

James

:thumbup:

[Peter J]

Many Roman Catholics also seem to be shocked that we generally won't admit that we're 'just the same' and I've quite often known RCs (not necessarily here) to take simple 'No, our disagreement with Rome on X is not trivial' responses as though they were rabid anti-Catholic attacks. It shouldn't be news to Roman Catholics that we have differences with Rome that we really believe are fundamental and that we believe that it is Rome which has departed from the Church, not us. Expressing that is not 'rabidly anti-Catholic' (though I certainly don't deny that such people exist). Whilst I agree that we should try to be welcoming to interested RCs, it would also help if RC guests could try to understand that. I'm not sure which is worse, RCs who want tell us how we're wrong or those who think we're all 'just the same really'. I think I have more respect for the former and feel more provoked by the latter, though I hope I tend to keep such provocation to myself rather than join in with responses such as outlined in the OP.

James

While there may be a few rabidly anti-RC posters in cyberspace, I have yet to meet a real genuine one in RL. Most Orthodox don't even think about RCs or the Catholic Church at all.

Really? You don't think about the Catholic Church?

[katherineofdixie]

Many Roman Catholics also seem to be shocked that we generally won't admit that we're 'just the same' and I've quite often known RCs (not necessarily here) to take simple 'No, our disagreement with Rome on X is not trivial' responses as though they were rabid anti-Catholic attacks. It shouldn't be news to Roman Catholics that we have differences with Rome that we really believe are fundamental and that we believe that it is Rome which has departed from the Church, not us. Expressing that is not 'rabidly anti-Catholic' (though I certainly don't deny that such people exist). Whilst I agree that we should try to be welcoming to interested RCs, it would also help if RC guests could try to understand that. I'm not sure which is worse, RCs who want tell us how we're wrong or those who think we're all 'just the same really'. I think I have more respect for the former and feel more provoked by the latter, though I hope I tend to keep such provocation to myself rather than join in with responses such as outlined in the OP.

James

While there may be a few rabidly anti-RC posters in cyberspace, I have yet to meet a real genuine one in RL. Most Orthodox don't even think about RCs or the Catholic Church at all.

Really? You don't think about the Catholic Church?

I assure you that is true, my dear. The only time I think about the Catholic Church is when my mil gripes (still!) about the changes of Vatican II. I have never heard this subject mentioned in conversations among Orthodox - only Catholics seem to be interested.

[Irish Melkite]

I think Michal's observations are pretty much on the money.

I'd have to say though that, in the 8 or 9 years that I've been a member here, I've virtually never been verbally attacked by any of my Orthodox brethren (however, I can't quite say the same about my fellow-Eastern Catholics and Latins, a few of whom have had at me on more than one occasion). In fact, I'm pretty proud of the number of Orthodox, both here and at ByzCath, whom I truly consider friends and whom I believe consider me likewise, albeit we've never met in person and may never be blessed to do so.

As to real life, I'd have to agree with Katherine. I can pretty much say that the occasions on which I've heard Catholics or Orthodox disparage one another's faith have been very few and very far between - and I've been blessed to have known Orthodox, both clergy and laity, since I was a young kid - which was both a long time ago and before I even knew that there were any Catholics other than those of the Latin persuasion.

Many years,

Neil

[Punch]

What do you think about my observations?

Pretty much right on the money.

[Peter J]

I'd have to say though that, in the 8 or 9 years that I've been a member here, I've virtually never been verbally attacked by any of my Orthodox brethren

I think you're right -- although you might be the only poster that's true of. (A couple years ago I would have said there were two, the other being Tom Monahan. But then I found out that he's really you too, so ...)

[Peter J]

While there may be a few rabidly anti-RC posters in cyberspace, I have yet to meet a real genuine one in RL. Most Orthodox don't even think about RCs or the Catholic Church at all.

Really? You don't think about the Catholic Church?

I assure you that is true, my dear. The only time I think about the Catholic Church is when my mil gripes (still!) about the changes of Vatican II. I have never heard this subject mentioned in conversations among Orthodox - only Catholics seem to be interested.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this forum really is the black hole of humor.

[Shanghaiski]

I've noticed that most new RC users (especially young adult males) that are not interesting in conversion start with a post like this:

Hello Eastern Orthodox brothers and sisters! I'd like to get to know more about your traditions. All I know as for now is that there are some disagreements between our Churches but you still have Apostolic succession and we share 99.999999% of faith (that makes you schismatics not heretics) and we are closest brothers. Let's unite to defend ourselves against those evil Protestants, Muslims and condomists as you are the Eastern kidney of Christianity. I also believe you keep some of the traditions that my Church forgot about.

Then they are responded with a few posts like:

We are not a kidney but One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. And you are heretics without Apostolic succession.

Better the turban of the Turk than the tiara of the Pope!

I would accept reuniting with the OOs but not with you.

Condoms are OK in marriage.

Evil hats   !!!!! Pedophiles   !!!!

And after such reception our newbie RC uses change their mind:

I was betrayed. I knew from the start the Holy Roman Church is the true Church and you are not a part of it. We will be never united because you do not believe in the Apostolic dogma of Papal supremacy. You also belong to the civilisation of death since you use condoms. Protestants are better than you!

And after that their following post differ in 180% from their first ones.




What do you think about my observations?

1. They're hilarious because they're true
2. They show why ecumenical dialogue fails
3. It's not like there was some missed opportunity for conversion to Orthodoxy because the so-called typical RC poster was approaching from basically the same angle he had after the Orthodox responded. It's not really a 180 degree turn--unless it's the other side of the same coin.

[Shanghaiski]

Very accurate observation. Before anyone on here decides to show their hyperdox side to a new member, they should remember this thread and think again. In their being overzealous, they are quite possibly driving away people from joining your Church, which I'm sure isn't what any of you really want.

Such posters don't intend to join the Church but to "unite".

Behold, the key.

[Shanghaiski]

condomists

I can't even pronounce that. I keep saying "condiments" 

We are very pro-condiment. Especially during Lent.