OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 22, 2014, 01:41:48 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Is the doctrine of the Trinity pagan in origin?  (Read 2377 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« on: November 15, 2012, 06:54:31 AM »

One thing that keeps coming up in discussions about Christianity is the claim that the doctrine of the Trinity is of pagan origin. This claim is made by some Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, and even atheists. Can anyone point me to some *thorough* refutations of this?
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2012, 08:27:45 AM »

I can't really point you to anything, but I know there was some recent discussion about it here.  The thing is, people are always making claims such as this in an effort to discredit Christianity.  It's nothing new.
Logged
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,408


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2012, 08:29:35 AM »

if you read the books of job, genesis and exodus, you will see that worship of God the creator predates paganism by a long, long way.
so if the pagans kept a few truths among the rest of the untrue parts of the religion and then we show them the truth, it doesn't mean we copied them.
God Himself handed down the traditions to adam and eve, and so worship of God was practiced before abraham.
people handed down their beliefs to their children, so it is not surprising that there are elements of truth in all religions.

romans chapters 1-5 show how the 'pagans' can see God in creation and in their own consciences (we are all made in the image of God) and so this should lead them to worship the true Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, if they look with an open mind.
Logged
Ashman618
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukranian catholic
Jurisdiction: Philadelphia
Posts: 503



« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2012, 08:36:04 AM »

Yes pegan indeed O and don't forget we also worship pictures and the Theotokos  Roll Eyes
Logged
Kerdy
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 5,732


« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2012, 08:38:24 AM »

If Christianity copied paganism, wouldn't that just make us a different kind of pagan?
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,171


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2012, 08:50:02 AM »

Since God is the Father of all truth, I would then state that any sliver of truth comes from God; trinitarianism included, whether or not it came from paganism is really immaterial.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great
Fabio Leite
Archon
********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 2,813



WWW
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2012, 09:12:01 AM »

It's like any science. The Trinity is a fact and people stumbled into it on ocasion, specially those who looked hard. But like with any complex phenomena we don't really understand it perfectly until the proper tools are invented. Magnetism was talked about by the ancients but its properties and relation with electricity were discovered only in the 19th century.
Likewise with the Trinity. What it really is was fuly revealed only in Christ's baptism. So all the theories of the few religions that  conceived of three gods governing the universe had to be corrected in face of the blatant self-exposition of the Triune God in that event.
Logged

Many Energies, Three Persons, Two Natures, One God.
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox. With some feta, please.
Posts: 6,484



« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2012, 09:21:50 AM »

I thought Arianism was a lot more pagan in origin in the sense that it resembled Neoplatonism much more than Trinitarianism.
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2012, 10:33:13 AM »

I see it as a natural progression in developing the definition of the Trinity.

Im getting tired of folks saying things are pagan without really understand what pagan means. Same goes for myth.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
recent convert
Orthodox Chrisitan
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian (N.A.)
Posts: 1,874


« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2012, 10:38:12 AM »

I really believe there was a concept of Trinity held by some Hebrews before the birth of Jesus Christ like this ex. from the book of Enoch: (see passsage 48:2, I tried to bold (but could not) the terms,"Son of Man", "Lord of spirits", & "Ancient of Days". The translation is the 1st English translation done by Anglican Bishop Richard Laurence & some have disputed parts of his translation like this one but yet it is accepted as overall sound but the pre Christian aspects just cannot seem to be true according to critics (sigh).

Enoch Chapter 48
Enoch 48:1 In that place I beheld a fountain of righteousness, which never failed, encircled by many springs of wisdom. Of these all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy.

Enoch 48:2 In that hour was this Son of man invoked before the Lord of spirits, and his name in the presence of the Ancient of days.

Enoch 48:3 Before the sun and the signs were created, before the stars of heaven were formed, his name was invoked in the presence of the Lord of spirits. A support shall he be for the righteous and the holy to lean upon, without falling; and he shall be the light of nations.

Enoch 48:4 He shall be the hope of those whose hearts are troubled. All, who dwell on earth, shall fall down and worship before him; shall bless and glorify him, and sing praises to the name of the Lord of spirits.

Enoch 48:5 Therefore the Elect and the Concealed One existed in his presence, before the world was created, and for ever.

Enoch 48:6 In his presence he existed, and has revealed to the saints and to the righteous the wisdom of the Lord of spirits; for he has preserved the lot of the righteous, because they have hated and rejected this world of iniquity, and have detested all its works and ways, in the name of the Lord of spirits.

Enoch 48:7 For in his name shall they be preserved; and his will shall be their life. In those days shall the kings of the earth and the mighty men, who have gained the world by their achievements, become humble in countenance.

Enoch 48:8 For in the day of their anxiety and trouble their souls shall not be saved; and they shall be in subjection to those whom I have chosen.

Enoch 48:9 I will cast them like hay into the fire, and like lead into the water. Thus shall they burn in the presence of the righteous, and sink in the presence of the holy; nor shall a tenth part of them be found.

Enoch 48:10 But in the day of their trouble, the world shall obtain tranquillity.

Enoch 48:11 In his presence shall they fall, and not be raised up again; nor shall there be any one to take them out of his hands, and to lift them up: for they have denied the Lord of spirits, and his Messiah. The name of the Lord of spirits shall be blessed.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 10:39:01 AM by recent convert » Logged

Antiochian OC N.A.
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 37,124



« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2012, 10:38:54 AM »

Not any more than three points making a single plane makes the Holy Trinity mathematical.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,273


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 10:54:32 AM »

What's interesting is that Elohim never says (as far as I know) that He would never, or could never, incarnate in human form.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 10:56:57 AM »

What's interesting is that Elohim never says (as far as I know) that He would never, or could never, incarnate in human form.
That's because God changed. Wink

Isn't Elohim the plural form of God?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,273


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 11:10:10 AM »

What's interesting is that Elohim never says (as far as I know) that He would never, or could never, incarnate in human form.
That's because God changed. Wink

Isn't Elohim the plural form of God?
Yes, technically, it's the plural of "Eloha" (the form which is used a lot in the Book of Job), but I think Elohim always refers to Himself (in Hebrew) in the first person singular, "I".

On the other hand, in the Qur'an, Allah uses "We" to refer to Allah-self, but the word "Allah" is singular, being a contraction of "al-ilaha", "the Deity". The Arabic "ilaha" is cognate to the Hebrew "eloha".

Don't confuse "eloha" with the Hawaiian greeting "aloha".
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 11:13:31 AM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,754


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 12:46:02 PM »

One thing that keeps coming up in discussions about Christianity is the claim that the doctrine of the Trinity is of pagan origin. This claim is made by some Protestants, Jehovah's Witnesses, and even atheists. Can anyone point me to some *thorough* refutations of this?

Was there a time when God didn't have a Word or Spirit?
Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
mabsoota
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 2,408


Kyrie eleison


« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 12:49:01 PM »

no. He is and always will be the same.
Logged
dhinuus
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 461



« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 12:52:24 PM »

Isn't it obvious from Genesis 1:26 ?

"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

And didnt our Lord Jesus Christ himself say:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"
(Matthew 28:19)

Well the doubters can always come back and say the Gospel also was pagan in origin.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 12:56:18 PM by dhinuus » Logged

NULL
JR
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: No idea
Jurisdiction: Athens
Posts: 381



« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 02:19:16 PM »


Well the doubters can always come back and say the Gospel also was pagan in origin.

They could do, but how would you defend the teaching of the Holy teaching to lets say the Jehovah s witnesses?

They believe that Jesus was just man, true human son of God.
Logged

"If you judge people, you have no time to love them".

Mother Teresa
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 02:23:28 PM »

I thought Arianism was a lot more pagan in origin in the sense that it resembled Neoplatonism much more than Trinitarianism.

This. Especially Homoiousian Arianism.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,894



« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 02:51:03 PM »

I just posed on this on monachos.net.  I don't know if you are the same person who asked it there but I will post my answer.

There is no indication that any of the known pagan religions of the day had any sort of Trinitarian formulation, at least not the religions that Christianity was exposed to. Someone over there mentioned Hinduism, but I don't think that there is any indication that Christianity with the exception of the Nasrani had any exposure much less influence from Hinduism. If there had been any influence, I'm fairly certain that there are much larger aspects of Hinduism that would have carried over as opposed to their theological construct of the Trinity.

The main religions that I can think of that could have (not saying they did) influenced Christianity would have been:

Roman Pantheon and subsidiaries:
Cult of Saturnalia
Cult of Mithras
Cult of Sol Invictus

Greek Pantheon and subsidiary:
Cult of Hercules

Egyptian Diety worship and subsidary:
Cult of Isis

Cult of Cybele

Jewish Faith

Zoroastrianism

Various Gnostic groups, many with origins in Christianity

I can't think of any others, but I'm sure there might be. None of these listed have any significant Trinitarian formulation.
Logged

Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,273


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 04:00:00 PM »

I think the claim of "pagan" Trinitarian origins has two parts: (1) the claim that the idea of Three Persons who are equally God has a "pagan" origin; and (2) the more general claim that the idea that the Divine Person (Creator of Cosmos) can become, or has become, human, has "pagan" origin.

Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Ashman618
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukranian catholic
Jurisdiction: Philadelphia
Posts: 503



« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2012, 05:40:46 PM »

I think the claim of "pagan" Trinitarian origins has two parts: (1) the claim that the idea of Three Persons who are equally God has a "pagan" origin; and (2) the more general claim that the idea that the Divine Person (Creator of Cosmos) can become, or has become, human, has "pagan" origin.



Spermatikos Logos
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2012, 05:44:21 PM »

I think the claim of "pagan" Trinitarian origins has two parts: (1) the claim that the idea of Three Persons who are equally God has a "pagan" origin; and (2) the more general claim that the idea that the Divine Person (Creator of Cosmos) can become, or has become, human, has "pagan" origin.



Spermatikos Logos

The Trinity does have some huge differences with neoplatonism though. And even then the founder of neoplatonism, Ammonius Saccas, was a christian.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2012, 05:44:42 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Church
Posts: 12,648


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2012, 07:08:43 PM »

Matthew 28:18-20

Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth.

19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

--------------------------------------------
Is the doctrine of the Trinity pagan in origin?

Uh, no.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
yeshuaisiam
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox, Anabaptist, Other Early Christianity kind of jumbled together
Posts: 4,086


A pulling horse cannot kick.


« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2012, 11:33:41 PM »

There are a lot of people that give all kinds of throw downs on Nicea and the Trinity.  They somehow morph that Constantine was a pagan and it developed into the trinitarian doctrine.

However, they are heavily mistaken.   Tertullian was the Bishop of Carthage (I think it was almost 125 years) before the council of Nicea.   He merely coined the phrase "Trinity".

The consensus of the Trinity existed with almost all of the early Christian writers.

Even in our Scriptures John 1:1
In the beginning was the WORD
The WORD was WITH GOD
The WORD IS GOD (the word that is & with God is God)
....Later.... The WORD became FLESH (So the word that IS god, and is WITH God, became Flesh)

At his baptism "The Holy Spirit..."

There are Many references to the "CONCEPT" of the trinity in many early Christian writings....  Please people correct me if I'm wrong, but I really do think Tertullian came up with the "trinity" "Tri-une" term.
Logged

I learned how to be more frugal and save money at http://www.livingpress.com
Nicene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2012, 11:39:34 PM »

What refutation can be made to a claim which is made up in the first place? 100 percent of the time whenever you run into someone who believes in this idea that the trinity is derived from paganism your bound to get one of these things.

- They don't understand the trinity
- They have no primary pre Christian sources
- They only have internet references from sites that spout the same thing that zeitgeist does
- They don't know the difference between a group of three gods and a trinity.

That last one is the most common, more often than not they will point to the trimutri or something similar, three gods who seemed to hang out and say that its a trinity. Typically its good to point out; Okay, so where is the evidence that these three were considered to have shared the same substance? Because we aren't talking about three entities but one entity with God. They can only after this point repeat their claims.
Logged

Thank you.
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2012, 03:10:37 AM »

Here's a site which contains lots of quotes from scholars which refute the idea that the doctrine of the Trinity is Pagan in origin:

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-pagan.htm#scholars

NOTE: While this site does contain some useful information, I would be cautious when browsing through it because it has a lot of polemics against Orthodoxy/Catholicism.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 03:12:59 AM by Severian » Logged

Taking a temporary hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me as I will still be signing in on occasion. Please forgive me if my posts have lacked humility, charity, or tact.

NOTE: Some of my older posts (particularly those prior to late 2012) may not reflect my current views.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: On-n-Off
Jurisdiction: OCA (the only truly Canonical American Orthodox Church)
Posts: 5,200


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2012, 03:17:13 AM »

Two things. Firstly, techically, the logic behind it IS actually similar to some forms of paganism--but in no way was it influenced by that paganism. The paganism which I refer to is Hinduism, the whole relationship between the Brahman is similar to the Trinity. All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity. However, early Christianity had NO contact with Hinduism, so anyone claiming that it did would have to provide good evidence--and that brings me onto my second point. A statement without evidence to support it can be rejected without evidence. The burden of proof is on them. They are the ones proving that the Trinity is pagan in origin. If they can't provide evidence to support it, then it can be discarded as a mere opinion.
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,754


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2012, 03:24:25 AM »

All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity.
The major difference is that the Trinity didn't start with "tres hypostasia, homoousios" or whatever. It started with God and his Word and his Spirit. The Nicene creed wasn't trying to define the Trinity, just rule out heresy.

Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,273


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #29 on: November 18, 2012, 03:51:39 AM »

However, early Christianity had NO contact with Hinduism
Except when Thomas went to India.
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Nicene
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 574


« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2012, 04:32:38 AM »

Thats a point to be made against people who suggest this pagan parrelel buisness in general. They assume that if there is a story or belief which is pre Christian that matches or is close to what Christianity believes therefore Christianity stole from it, it's idea.  Despite the fact they can't explain how such a belief travelled and became intermingled with the Christian communties.
Logged

Thank you.
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2012, 04:50:41 AM »

The paganism which I refer to is Hinduism, the whole relationship between the Brahman is similar to the Trinity. All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity.

But the material world isn't part of the Trinity.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2012, 07:06:52 AM »

The paganism which I refer to is Hinduism, the whole relationship between the Brahman is similar to the Trinity. All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity.

But the material world isn't part of the Trinity.

You sure about that?
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,144


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2012, 07:15:00 AM »

The paganism which I refer to is Hinduism, the whole relationship between the Brahman is similar to the Trinity. All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity.

But the material world isn't part of the Trinity.


Since the Incarnation, it is.  police
Logged
Cyrillic
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 8,706


« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2012, 07:21:21 AM »

The paganism which I refer to is Hinduism, the whole relationship between the Brahman is similar to the Trinity. All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity.

But the material world isn't part of the Trinity.


Since the Incarnation, it is.  police

 Embarrassed

Oh well, forgot about that.
Logged

On a temporary/semi-permanent/permanent vacation from OC.net.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2012, 07:26:29 AM »

I think the claim of "pagan" Trinitarian origins has two parts: (1) the claim that the idea of Three Persons who are equally God has a "pagan" origin; and (2) the more general claim that the idea that the Divine Person (Creator of Cosmos) can become, or has become, human, has "pagan" origin.



Spermatikos Logos

The Trinity does have some huge differences with neoplatonism though. And even then the founder of neoplatonism, Ammonius Saccas, was a christian.

This is less than true in a few ways.

The origins of "neoplatonic" thought didn't arise from a "founder" in any real sense. If you were to offer a place where neoplatonism finds itself proper, you would begin with Plotinus.

The whole idea that Plotinus was educated by a Christian named Ammonius is not well sourced and probably if it were true that a Ammonius taught Plotinus it certainly wasn't a Christian.

To be sure, early Church theology toiled and unfortunately still does today under the burden of the odd marriage of Plato and Aristotle.

But one must give the devil his due and neoplatonism in no defensible sense was founded by a "Christian".

 
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 07:27:57 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2012, 07:27:11 AM »

The paganism which I refer to is Hinduism, the whole relationship between the Brahman is similar to the Trinity. All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity.

But the material world isn't part of the Trinity.


Since the Incarnation, it is.  police

 Embarrassed

Oh well, forgot about that.

Don't. It is great material to use against these folks who talk about God never changing.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #37 on: November 18, 2012, 07:29:30 AM »

The paganism which I refer to is Hinduism, the whole relationship between the Brahman is similar to the Trinity. All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity.

But the material world isn't part of the Trinity.


Since the Incarnation, it is.  police

 Embarrassed

Oh well, forgot about that.

Don't. It is great material to use against these folks who talk about God never changing.
God didn't change when He became Incarnate.
Logged

Taking a temporary hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me as I will still be signing in on occasion. Please forgive me if my posts have lacked humility, charity, or tact.

NOTE: Some of my older posts (particularly those prior to late 2012) may not reflect my current views.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #38 on: November 18, 2012, 07:38:10 AM »

The paganism which I refer to is Hinduism, the whole relationship between the Brahman is similar to the Trinity. All of the gods and material world are a part of the Brahman, yet at the same time, they are also distinct--just like the Trinity.

But the material world isn't part of the Trinity.


Since the Incarnation, it is.  police

 Embarrassed

Oh well, forgot about that.

Don't. It is great material to use against these folks who talk about God never changing.
God didn't change when He became Incarnate.

Yes. In fact, your sentence makes zero sense.

Get over Plato.

It's OK.

God changes. I've been through this over and over on this board and there is really no Scriptural basis when taken on the whole to believe that God doesn't change.

And people don't understand their apophatic language which is dwarfed by cataphatic language and get stuck with these odd notions.

EDIT: I am not going to hash this out again. Besides you don't have the temperament for it. Just pointing the importance of such moments when the Orthodox who dig their heels in about their unknowable, unchanging God and say He is knowable and changing. It is sorta the whole point of the Incarnation, knowing, changing. Anyhoo.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 07:41:57 AM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,144


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #39 on: November 18, 2012, 07:44:00 AM »

Quote
God changes. I've been through this over and over on this board and there is really no Scriptural basis when taken on the whole to believe that God doesn't change.

Then you haven't been paying attention to Orthodox hymnography, particularly the hymns to the Trinity (Troitsny, Triadika) sung during the canons at Matins.  police
Logged
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2012, 08:05:47 AM »

EDIT: I am not going to hash this out again. Besides you don't have the temperament for it. Just pointing the importance of such moments when the Orthodox who dig their heels in about their unknowable, unchanging God and say He is knowable and changing. It is sorta the whole point of the Incarnation, knowing, changing. Anyhoo.
Fine. I'm not interested in having a discussion with you, anyway.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 08:06:09 AM by Severian » Logged

Taking a temporary hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me as I will still be signing in on occasion. Please forgive me if my posts have lacked humility, charity, or tact.

NOTE: Some of my older posts (particularly those prior to late 2012) may not reflect my current views.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2012, 08:21:47 AM »

God changes.

I didn't know you are a non-Chalcedonian.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
Severian
I love making people who hate me hate me even more
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Coptic/Egyptian Orthodoxy
Posts: 5,039


St. Severus of Antioch, Crown of the Syrians

Partisangirl
WWW
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2012, 08:22:22 AM »

God changes.

I didn't know you are a non-Chalcedonian.
We non-Chalcedonians don't believe God changes. police
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 08:22:45 AM by Severian » Logged

Taking a temporary hiatus from posting. PM me if you wish to contact me as I will still be signing in on occasion. Please forgive me if my posts have lacked humility, charity, or tact.

NOTE: Some of my older posts (particularly those prior to late 2012) may not reflect my current views.
orthonorm
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,343



« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2012, 03:14:40 PM »

God changes.

I didn't know you are a non-Chalcedonian.

Is that the bad or good one?

Oh please, this is something I've ground out here in some detail before and many times in passing.

It is madness and frankly dishonest for anyone who believes in the Incarnation (just for starters) to suggest God doesn't change.

If you think God doesn't change, you might be a Muslim though.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2012, 03:15:24 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
William
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Posts: 4,306


« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2012, 03:16:10 PM »

Orthonorm you might preclude a lot of this stuff that's posted against you if you expressed yourself in a way that isn't so insensitive to others' positions which you essentially agree with.
Logged

Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant

Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. - Matt. 5:24
Tags: Trinity 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.139 seconds with 72 queries.