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Author Topic: Raising and lowering bread during Panakhyda in Romanian Church  (Read 2176 times) Average Rating: 0
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LizaSymonenko
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« on: November 14, 2012, 11:39:13 AM »


I was at a Romanian Orthodox Church which was celebrating their 100th anniversary, this weekend and they served a Panakhyda for those parishioners who had helped build the church and have since passed away.

As is tradition, they had a small table set up with three rather large loaves of bread and a really large bowl of kolivo (boiled wheat). 



I didn't understand much of what was being said, as it was all in Romanian, however, at one point the loaves of bread where picked up by the bishops and passed back to the parishioners.  In other words, each loaf was picked up by a priest/bishop and walked to the back, middle, almost front of church....and held aloft.  Then all the parishioners crowded around and tried to help hold it up...others who were not close enough, simply laid their hands on those in front of them...so, in the end everyone was either directly touching the tray/bread, or touching the shoulder of someone who eventually was touching the bread.



While some prayers were being said the bread and the kolivo (which remained up front with the Archbishop and other clergy) was all raised and lowered and raised and lowered...over and over.

I had never seen this done before and was curious as to the symbolism of the act....and nobody could really tell me more than it is a Romanian tradition....but, not what it really represents or the meaning behind the raising and lowering.

Anyone have any insight in to this seemingly exclusively Romanian tradition?

Thanks!

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« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2012, 11:48:03 AM »

Unfortunately, no, but I can confirm that it's a Romanian tradition. It's usually done with the coliva as well. I hadn't realised it was an exclusively Romanian practice. It just looks normal to me. I'll see what I can find out. Perhaps our priest will know the answer.

James
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« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2012, 12:08:14 PM »

A bit similar thing is done with slavski kolač (a kind of bread-cake so similar to these in the first picture) during Serbian Slava (the feast of the patron: of family, of church etc.), and on Slava there is also kolivo in the remembrance of our ancestors.

To tell the truth, I don't know why all this stuff is done with slavski kolač... Our countries are quite close, maybe the cradle of these traditions is the same? Howeve, that's first time I've never know something like that exists in Romanian tradition.

I wonder what's the meaning of that
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2012, 12:09:35 PM »

Unfortunately, no, but I can confirm that it's a Romanian tradition. It's usually done with the coliva as well. I hadn't realised it was an exclusively Romanian practice. It just looks normal to me. I'll see what I can find out. Perhaps our priest will know the answer.

James

Ya ya....the kolivo remained up front but, it was also lifted and lowered.

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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2012, 12:23:03 PM »

Firstly I'd note that this happens while we sing 'Veșnica pomenire!' (Memory Eternal) - I imagine that you wouldn't necessarily have got that if you don't speak Romanian.

Anyway, I've found a few suggestions looking on Romanian sites, but I'll still need to see what our priest says. The most plausible sounding one seems to be that it symbolizes our participation in the raising up to heaven of the souls of those who have passed on - kind of another way of symbolising the Church Militant and Church Triumphant working together, I suppose.

You'll probably be interested to know that it seems to be quite a question for Romanians also!

James
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2012, 01:23:07 PM »

I see this tradition all the time in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.  It is also a Ukrainian tradition tto not just Romanian.
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2012, 03:06:08 PM »


I'm Ukrainian, and have been to countless Panakhydy at many different Ukrainian churches, and never seen this.  Ever.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 03:06:27 PM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2012, 04:22:26 PM »

Not a Bulgarian tradition. I rather like the symbolism that was advanced by jmbejdl.
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2012, 04:45:36 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I dig the classic Orthodox responses on this thread which essentially argue, "Yes, its Orthodox, but no, I have no idea what it means or why its done, Tradition is about experiencing, not necessarily understanding."  angel

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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2012, 05:48:34 PM »

yes we tend to do that.. and it is colivă in romanian..

i think it has something to do with the angels carrying the soul of the deceased in their arms and with Lazarus being in the bossom of Abraham..

the lifting of the Panaghia is also given in respect of the theotokos and the holy trinity..

the Panakhyda also represents the ones who are deceased..

-----------

afaik from my little knowledge that can be accurate or not..
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« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2012, 06:29:46 PM »

I see this tradition all the time in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.  It is also a Ukrainian tradition tto not just Romanian.

I'm Ukrainian, and have been to countless Panakhydy at many different Ukrainian churches, and never seen this.  Ever.

Given the geographic proximity of western Ukraine and present-day Romania, it's inevitable some crossover of customs would have occurred over centuries.  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2012, 04:26:29 AM »

I see this tradition all the time in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.  It is also a Ukrainian tradition tto not just Romanian.

I'm Ukrainian, and have been to countless Panakhydy at many different Ukrainian churches, and never seen this.  Ever.

Given the geographic proximity of western Ukraine and present-day Romania, it's inevitable some crossover of customs would have occurred over centuries.  Smiley

Especially when you think that there are areas in Ukraine which were Romanian up until their annexation by Stalin after WWII - northern Bucovina and southern Bessarabia. My wife's from right on the post-war border with Ukraine and I remember all the Ukrainians coming to the market from over the border in the '90s - the vast majority of them were ethnic Romanians. Conversely, there's a village just outside my wife's home town which is almost entirely Ukrainian and my wife's maiden name was actually of Ukrainian origin - the north east of Romania is pretty mixed and it looks as though the areas over on the Ukrainian side of the border are too.

James
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« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2012, 08:49:53 AM »

i have not been to many romanian orthodox services (most of my friends / relatives are protestant) so i don't know about the customs.
i have learnt that, when in doubt, you should buy a candle.
 Wink
but i can say that the border of northwest romania with ukraine is the most beautiful place on earth!
 Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2012, 09:38:36 AM »

i have not been to many romanian orthodox services (most of my friends / relatives are protestant) so i don't know about the customs.
i have learnt that, when in doubt, you should buy a candle.
 Wink
but i can say that the border of northwest romania with ukraine is the most beautiful place on earth!
 Smiley

I'd have to disagree and say that the border of north east Romania and Ukraine is more beautiful. Of course, I may be a touch biased! Bucovina, especially in the Carpathians, is gorgeous and Putna, the painted monasteries and especially St. Daniil Sihastru's cell are my favourite places on earth.

James
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« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2012, 10:48:34 AM »

I see this tradition all the time in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.  It is also a Ukrainian tradition tto not just Romanian.

I'm Ukrainian, and have been to countless Panakhydy at many different Ukrainian churches, and never seen this.  Ever.


Given the geographic proximity of western Ukraine and present-day Romania, it's inevitable some crossover of customs would have occurred over centuries.  Smiley


 True that could account for it being popular in Bukovyna but what about the rest of Ukraine?  For example, I was in a Ukrainian Orthodox Church in Ottawa at a panakhyda and I was told that raising the bread was a custom from Volyna. 
Liz, I have found the UOC-USA to be different from the UOCC in a number of different ways which I always assumed was because of the historical origins of the UOC-USA and the role of Ukrainian priests  from the Ukrainian Catholic Church who converted.    For example, raising the bread is not done in the province of Galicia which is predominantly Catholic. 
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« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2012, 11:24:20 AM »


Are you stating that the UOCofUSA is "latinized"?

If that's the case is the rest of Orthodoxy, distant from Romania, who don't follow this tradition, also "latinized"?
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2012, 11:48:03 AM »


I'm Ukrainian, and have been to countless Panakhydy at many different Ukrainian churches, and never seen this.  Ever.

I've never seen it in either Rusyn or Ukrainian traditions...but perhaps along the Romanian/Ukraine border historically known as the Maramaros regions it may be ? ?
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« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2012, 01:19:10 PM »


Are you stating that the UOCofUSA is "latinized"?

If that's the case is the rest of Orthodoxy, distant from Romania, who don't follow this tradition, also "latinized"?



No sorry, that is not at all what I am saying.  And I am sorry if anyone thought that was what I was saying.  I just did not explain myself well.
I will try again but please forgive me if I get it wrong this time too.  My intention is not to offend you.
The Province of Galicia has its own religious traditions just like other parts of Ukraine.  And then after the Austrians took power and the Orthodox in Galicia became Ukrainian Catholics, they did not have the close contact with other Orthodox in all of the rest of Ukraine.  The history of Ukrainians in the USA includes a number of Orthodox Churches in which former Ukrainian Catholic priests played a role in their establishment or just converted to Orthodoxy and became Ukrainian Orthodox priests in the USA.  So what I noticed is that there is a continuation of Galician traditions.  I do not mean Latinization.  Like for example the use of Galician chant.  So maybe in Galicia there was not a tradition of raising the bread and that is why you personally have not seen it in the USA.  In Canada, the predominant traditions are from Bukovyna and Volyn with a minority of Orthodox from eastern Ukraine.  Even the people whose ancestors from Galicia converted in 1918 have intermarried with the rest of us.  Also we had priests from Bukovyna and Volyn and also our hierarchy until we had Canadian born clerics.
I have seen raising the bread in panakhydas i all over Canada in churches of the UOCC and in my travels in different parts of Ukraine too.  I have not travelled extensively in Galicia or Transcarpathia.  In fact in Galicia, I have only been to Lviv and the road to Pochaiv.  This tradition of raising the bread in a panakhyda service is not a big deal because it is not an issue of doctrine or dogma but of regional tradition with a small “t”.  There are differences in regional traditions among Orthodox in Ukraine for panakhydas.  For example, some areas use 3 loaves of Kochachs and some regional areas use only one kolach.  Then some areas use a special version of Kutia and other areas use koliva.  The same with the fruit.  In some areas apples and other fruits are used as part of the panakhyda and set around the kolach.  I am not saying one way is right and the other way wrong or not-Orthodox. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2012, 01:58:55 PM »


Smiley  Got it!

Yeah, I'm not protesting the tradition, just curious what it represents.

I thought it was actually really nice.
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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2012, 02:01:36 PM »

A bit similar thing is done with slavski kolač (a kind of bread-cake so similar to these in the first picture) during Serbian Slava (the feast of the patron: of family, of church etc.), and on Slava there is also kolivo in the remembrance of our ancestors.

To tell the truth, I don't know why all this stuff is done with slavski kolač... Our countries are quite close, maybe the cradle of these traditions is the same? Howeve, that's first time I've never know something like that exists in Romanian tradition.

I wonder what's the meaning of that

We spin the slavski kolač, and I think it's to represent the tradition continuing on through the years until Christ returns, and everyone in the family has to touch it or touch someone touching it to represent their support of continuing the tradition. I think it's spun while the Troparion of the Slava is sung. The half cutting/breaking and pouring wine on is to remind us of Holy Communion and the host and priest kissing it are because it's blessed and to venerate having received the tradition. S'what I was told anyway, if I remember right. I don't know how much of this is the same symbolism for this Romanian tradition.
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« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2012, 06:00:44 PM »


Are you stating that the UOCofUSA is "latinized"?

If that's the case is the rest of Orthodoxy, distant from Romania, who don't follow this tradition, also "latinized"?



No sorry, that is not at all what I am saying.  And I am sorry if anyone thought that was what I was saying.  I just did not explain myself well.
I will try again but please forgive me if I get it wrong this time too.  My intention is not to offend you.
The Province of Galicia has its own religious traditions just like other parts of Ukraine.  And then after the Austrians took power and the Orthodox in Galicia became Ukrainian Catholics, they did not have the close contact with other Orthodox in all of the rest of Ukraine.  The history of Ukrainians in the USA includes a number of Orthodox Churches in which former Ukrainian Catholic priests played a role in their establishment or just converted to Orthodoxy and became Ukrainian Orthodox priests in the USA.  So what I noticed is that there is a continuation of Galician traditions.  I do not mean Latinization.  Like for example the use of Galician chant.  So maybe in Galicia there was not a tradition of raising the bread and that is why you personally have not seen it in the USA.  In Canada, the predominant traditions are from Bukovyna and Volyn with a minority of Orthodox from eastern Ukraine.  Even the people whose ancestors from Galicia converted in 1918 have intermarried with the rest of us.  Also we had priests from Bukovyna and Volyn and also our hierarchy until we had Canadian born clerics.
I have seen raising the bread in panakhydas i all over Canada in churches of the UOCC and in my travels in different parts of Ukraine too.  I have not travelled extensively in Galicia or Transcarpathia.  In fact in Galicia, I have only been to Lviv and the road to Pochaiv.  This tradition of raising the bread in a panakhyda service is not a big deal because it is not an issue of doctrine or dogma but of regional tradition with a small “t”.  There are differences in regional traditions among Orthodox in Ukraine for panakhydas.  For example, some areas use 3 loaves of Kochachs and some regional areas use only one kolach.  Then some areas use a special version of Kutia and other areas use koliva.  The same with the fruit.  In some areas apples and other fruits are used as part of the panakhyda and set around the kolach.  I am not saying one way is right and the other way wrong or not-Orthodox. 


I am glad you clarified your point. One of the major things which stick in the craw of many of us whose ancestors came from Galicia, Transcarpathia and Slovakia who now identify as being either Ukrainian or Rusyn and who are Orthodox is the charge, most often coming from the east of us (i.e. Russia and eastern Ukraine) that our small 't' traditions, such as Galician or Rusyn chant -were 'Latinizations'. To be sure, there were certain innovations which were popularized by the Basilian fathers across these regions in the 18th and 19th centuries which were western - such as Rosary devotions, stations of the Cross and First Communion to name the 'big three.' However, scholars now recognize that many of the so-called liturgical Latinizations - practices unique among them - are actually 'throw-backs' to earlier Orthodox Typicons that pre-date the fall of Constantinople and subsequent developments across Kiev into Russia proper.
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« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2012, 03:29:27 PM »


Are you stating that the UOCofUSA is "latinized"?

If that's the case is the rest of Orthodoxy, distant from Romania, who don't follow this tradition, also "latinized"?



No sorry, that is not at all what I am saying.  And I am sorry if anyone thought that was what I was saying.  I just did not explain myself well.
I will try again but please forgive me if I get it wrong this time too.  My intention is not to offend you.
The Province of Galicia has its own religious traditions just like other parts of Ukraine.  And then after the Austrians took power and the Orthodox in Galicia became Ukrainian Catholics, they did not have the close contact with other Orthodox in all of the rest of Ukraine.  The history of Ukrainians in the USA includes a number of Orthodox Churches in which former Ukrainian Catholic priests played a role in their establishment or just converted to Orthodoxy and became Ukrainian Orthodox priests in the USA.  So what I noticed is that there is a continuation of Galician traditions.  I do not mean Latinization.  Like for example the use of Galician chant.  So maybe in Galicia there was not a tradition of raising the bread and that is why you personally have not seen it in the USA.  In Canada, the predominant traditions are from Bukovyna and Volyn with a minority of Orthodox from eastern Ukraine.  Even the people whose ancestors from Galicia converted in 1918 have intermarried with the rest of us.  Also we had priests from Bukovyna and Volyn and also our hierarchy until we had Canadian born clerics.
I have seen raising the bread in panakhydas i all over Canada in churches of the UOCC and in my travels in different parts of Ukraine too.  I have not travelled extensively in Galicia or Transcarpathia.  In fact in Galicia, I have only been to Lviv and the road to Pochaiv.  This tradition of raising the bread in a panakhyda service is not a big deal because it is not an issue of doctrine or dogma but of regional tradition with a small “t”.  There are differences in regional traditions among Orthodox in Ukraine for panakhydas.  For example, some areas use 3 loaves of Kochachs and some regional areas use only one kolach.  Then some areas use a special version of Kutia and other areas use koliva.  The same with the fruit.  In some areas apples and other fruits are used as part of the panakhyda and set around the kolach.  I am not saying one way is right and the other way wrong or not-Orthodox. 


I am glad you clarified your point. One of the major things which stick in the craw of many of us whose ancestors came from Galicia, Transcarpathia and Slovakia who now identify as being either Ukrainian or Rusyn and who are Orthodox is the charge, most often coming from the east of us (i.e. Russia and eastern Ukraine) that our small 't' traditions, such as Galician or Rusyn chant -were 'Latinizations'. To be sure, there were certain innovations which were popularized by the Basilian fathers across these regions in the 18th and 19th centuries which were western - such as Rosary devotions, stations of the Cross and First Communion to name the 'big three.' However, scholars now recognize that many of the so-called liturgical Latinizations - practices unique among them - are actually 'throw-backs' to earlier Orthodox Typicons that pre-date the fall of Constantinople and subsequent developments across Kiev into Russia proper.

The Synod of Zamost in Galicia introduced "First Communion" after Galicia became Eastern Catholic and even the synod proceedings state it is to be introduced gradually not to cause alarm; it never was an Orthodox tradition.  It is not a ""throw back" to earlier Orthodox practices.  The Synod of Lviv in 1891 introduced other Latinizations.
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« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2012, 05:17:01 AM »

The Synod of Zamost in Galicia introduced "First Communion" after Galicia became Eastern Catholic and even the synod proceedings state it is to be introduced gradually not to cause alarm; it never was an Orthodox tradition.  It is not a ""throw back" to earlier Orthodox practices.  The Synod of Lviv in 1891 introduced other Latinizations.

Podkarpatska never stated First Communion was a throwback.  In fact, he pointed out it was a latinization so I am not sure what correction you think you were offering.  There are differences in the Ruthenian Typicon that are older than both the Nikonian and Old Rite Typicon.  Most frequently it the abscence of extra prayers added later but sometimes of a different prayer all together.
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« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2012, 11:01:36 AM »

Just to clarify my somewhat poorly worded post, obviously First Communion is a western teaching and not anything found within Orthodox tradition. I was speaking of certain ancient liturgical/rubric/Typicon practices which existed during the Orthodox period among the Galicians and Ruthenians and which continued after the unions and particularly the tradition  of congregational chant which in the 20th century was mistakenly called a Latinization during a period of time in which choral arrangements within the Russian Orthodox Church were favored over traditional chants.
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« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2012, 03:20:03 PM »

from my reading, first communion in the catholic tradition comes from the time priests were allowed to baptise new Christians (babies, children or adults), but only bishops could give chrismation, so as there were not many bishops and they hadn't invented cars and planes, the bishops would slowly go around the diocese, chrismating everyone who had been baptised since the previous bishop's visit.
thus the kids would have to wait a few years to get chrismated, and could not have their first communion until they were a few years old.
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