Topic: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

[ThePilgrim]

OzGeorge,

You seem oddly bent on disrupting the thread for no discernible purpose.  Your use of ad hominem attacks, misdirection, and childish behavior seem very strange, to say the least.

Is it true what another poster said, that you are in favor of gay unions within the Orthodox Church?  Is that the cause of such childishness?  If so, perhaps a substantive theological discussion on the teachings of the Church might be a better way to make progress in the issue, rather than such behavior.

In Christ,
John

[Tamara]

OzGeorge,

You seem oddly bent on disrupting the thread for no discernible purpose.  Your use of ad hominem attacks, misdirection, and childish behavior seem very strange, to say the least.

Is it true what another poster said, that you are in favor of gay unions within the Orthodox Church?  Is that the cause of such childishness?  If so, perhaps a substantive theological discussion on the teachings of the Church might be a better way to make progress in the issue, rather than such behavior.

In Christ,
John

If people would stop responding to him there would be no problem. He wants to disrupt and misdirect on this thread because he hates the message. There seem to be enough people on this thread who take the issues in Finland seriously to have a discussion.

[Justin Kissel]

Welcome to the forum, ThePilgrim (John).

[ozgeorge]

He wants to disrupt and misdirect on this thread because he hates the message.

And of course, you love scandal don't you?

[ozgeorge]

OzGeorge,

You seem oddly bent on disrupting the thread for no discernible purpose.  Your use of ad hominem attacks, misdirection, and childish behavior seem very strange, to say the least.

Is it true what another poster said, that you are in favor of gay unions within the Orthodox Church?  Is that the cause of such childishness?  If so, perhaps a substantive theological discussion on the teachings of the Church might be a better way to make progress in the issue, rather than such behavior.

In Christ,
John

Welcome to the forum John. And thanks for the ad hominem.

[ThePilgrim]

That wasn't ad hominem, but thank you for your welcome :-)

Ad hominem is implying that a person's arguments are invalid because of something about them as a person.

Now, will you please answer my question?  Are you, in fact, in favor of gay unions within the Orthodox Church?  Would you be willing to engage on a substantive discussion at the issue at hand?

The uncharitable assumptions about the Brotherhood of St. Kosmas, which fly in the face of the evidence, serve no purpose and would probably be best avoided.  For that matter, the stereotypes about converts are probably also unnecessary, especially since most of the original people raising these concerns are Russian, Greek, and Finnish cradle Orthodox Christians.

In Christ,
John

[augustin717]

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska)

.
I believe it is quite ridiculous that a bishop would have a Facebook account on the first place and even more ridiculous that he would adhere to online groups-no matter what those groups are about- and sign online petitions etc.
How does he participate there, as a bishop, or just as the citizen Pleska?

[SolEX01]

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska)

.
I believe it is quite ridiculous that a bishop would have a Facebook account on the first place and even more ridiculous that he would adhere to online groups-no matter what those groups are about- and sign online petitions etc.

Met. Jonah signed the Manhattan Declaration.  The OCA Hierarchs give the impression that they are "up to speed" with social networking sites like Facebook.

How does he participate there, as a bishop, or just as the citizen Pleska?

There is no such thing as citizen Pleska ... anything else would be digressing from this thread.   

What is the point of this thread anyway and what can we as lay people do about it, if anything at all?   

[observer]

LOL OzGeorgi is trolling.  The Rainbow rev is coming to Orthodoxy, don't doubt that!!

[Justin Kissel]

I believe it is quite ridiculous that a bishop would have a Facebook account on the first place and even more ridiculous that he would adhere to online groups-no matter what those groups are about- and sign online petitions etc.
How does he participate there, as a bishop, or just as the citizen Pleska?

The times, they are a changin' 

[ozgeorge]

That wasn't ad hominem

Of course not.

Ad hominem is implying that a person's arguments are invalid because of something about them as a person.

You mean like saying that someone's that their arguments against something are invalid by suggesting they might be in favour of Gay unions in the Church? That sort of thing John?

[ThePilgrim]

That wasn't ad hominem

Of course not.

Ad hominem is implying that a person's arguments are invalid because of something about them as a person.

You mean like saying that someone's that their arguments against something are invalid by suggesting they might be in favour of Gay unions in the Church? That sort of thing John?

No, I said nothing about any arguments you made, nor did I imply that they were invalid based on anything about you as an individual

Rather, I'm asking about the reason your evident desire to assume the worst about others without evidence and then, in the presence of information contradicting your assumptions, to continue to hold to your previous assumptions in the face of that evidence.  I'm also surprised by the very mocking tone with which you address people, both present and absent, who hold to a given position.  None of those things have anything to do with your arguments, but only your behavior and your assumptions, both of which seem incomprehensible to me.

Someone earlier suggested a possible reason for your behavior, and I'm asking if their reason was correct, and if it is, I'm inviting you to dialogue on the real issue.

Grace and peace to you!
Sbn John

[ozgeorge]

Someone earlier suggested a possible reason for your behavior

See what happens when you listen to gossip?

Grace and peace to you!

Whatever.

[Schultz]

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska)

.
I believe it is quite ridiculous that a bishop would have a Facebook account on the first place and even more ridiculous that he would adhere to online groups-no matter what those groups are about- and sign online petitions etc.
How does he participate there, as a bishop, or just as the citizen Pleska?

I can think of at least one other Orthodox bishops off the top of my head that have facebook accounts AND use it regularly.  There are dozens of priests who use it, as well.

[ThePilgrim]

Someone earlier suggested a possible reason for your behavior

See what happens when you listen to gossip?

Grace and peace to you!

Whatever.

I'm not listening to gossip.  I'm asking *you* what the truth of the matter is, and asking if you would rather discuss something substantive rather than merely impugning others without evidence.

In Christ,
Sbn John

[Fr. George]

I'm considering locking the thread. Until then, I've moved it to a place where this kind of back-and-forth is less uncommon.

[Robert W]

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

The Brotherhood is far more than a "lone crackpot."   The Brotherhood's concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church.

Any lone crackpot on the internet can call themselves a "Brotherhood", but it doesn't make them more than one person. There are may lone crackpots who start websites about Freemasons controlling the USA and just because their "concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church", doesn't make them any less lone or any less crackpot. Calling yourself a "Brotherhood" doesn't make you one. Or perhaps I'm wrong Irish Hermit, perhaps you have access to the extensive member list of the "Brotherhood of St. Cosmas Aitolos"? Surely, if "they" want to show any credibility, they will say "who" they are and not simply publish things anonymously. That would give the impression that they are not a "Brotherhood" at all, but just a lone crackpot with a keyboard.

Ozgeorge, I'm sorry to have to correct you. Misinformation about the brotherhood will not benefit this discussion.

Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö (The  Brotherhood  of  Saint  Kosmas  of  Aitolia) have been around for a while. It does not consist of a lone crackpot with a keyboard. The brotherhood is a registered association¹ (legal entity in Finland) and the Toimintaperiaatteet (mission statement (?)) of the brotherhood has the blessing of Archbishop Leo².

Their main work consists of translating texts from Greek and church Slavonic into Finnish, the amount of translated texts surpasses that of what a lone individual would accomplish³.

The brotherhood have been known to promote fasting and they wish to bring to discussion the date we celebrate Easter in Finland. (I don't know where I read this so you will not get a reference  )

References are in Finnish
1) http://yhdistysrekisteri.prh.fi/ryhaku.htx?kieli=1&hakuraja=0&nimi=PYH%C4N+KOSMAS+AITOLIALAISEN+VELJEST%D6&kotipaikka=&ensrek=&viimrek=&osoite=&evlu=&orto=&vapaa=&sb_haku=Hae
2) http://www.kosmas.fi/PDF-files-veljeston%20paasivu/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20Toimintaperiaatteet05reXoLog.pdf
3) http://www.kosmas.fi/

EDIT:
I would also like to challenge ozgeorge's claim that the brotherhood is somehow "anonymous". The brotherhood is a registered association in Finland. This means that the founding members have all signed the original document stating the intent to found and enter as members in the association. This document not subject to secrecy and is available upon request from the register handling these things⁴ (a subdivision of the Patents and registers board). The same register also contains the information about who is the current chairman and secretary as well as other persons able to sign agreements on behalf of the association.

4) http://www.prh.fi/fi/yhdistysrekisteri.html

[SolEX01]

^ One would have to learn Finnish to gain access to these documents.   

I wonder why would someone in Finland name an association after St. Kosmas of Aetolia where the latter never preached in Finland and why would someone use St. Kosmas of Aetolia to promote what appears to be a secondary pro-homosexual agenda?   

[PeterTheAleut]

^ One would have to learn Finnish to gain access to these documents.   

That's where www.translate.google.com comes in handy.

[Robert W]

Sources are in Finnish   I can't do anything about that.

Why St. Kosmas? Obviously some aspect of St. Kosmas appealed to the fonding members of the brotherhood. Few saints loved by Finns and Americans alike have actually set foot in neither of our countries, that does not stop us does it?

Pro-homosexual agenda?   The Brotherhood of Saint Kosmas of Aitolia is opposed to Orthodox clergy being members in "pro-homosexual" associations. I think you got it backwards.

[Rafa999]

"Ecumenist Gay conference"

Oh man, just the sound of that tells me that you guys are in deep trouble in Western Europe. I for one am really worried about the RCC accepting the gay marriage thing or women priests. That would be the end of the church, everybody would fall like dominoes after that, except possibly my beloved Assyrian church (but then the COE would have to retreat to the Hakkari mountains once more to protect its domain from this sort of thing).

[Justin Kissel]

^ One would have to learn Finnish to gain access to these documents.   

That's where www.translate.google.com comes in handy.

correctly if work that would only actually it Google would translate?

[ozgeorge]

why would someone use St. Kosmas of Aetolia to promote what appears to be a secondary pro-homosexual agenda?  

What are you talking about? The "Brotherhood of St. Cosmas Aetolos" is an entity which has been threatening Archbishop Leo for over a year because of a statement signed by some Bishops of the Church of Finland in 2000 saying that homosexuals should be treated with respect (which kind of makes Robert W's claim that Archbishop Leo has "blessed" the group a bit hard to swallow). How is that a "secondary pro-homosexual agenda"? And how have they been threatening him? By lodging a complaint with the Patriarchate of Moscow. Now, why would they do that? Wouldn't the proper order be to address the Synod of the Church of Finland, and then appeal to Constantinople (which the Church of Finland is under)? Even the Finnish gay lobby group "Yhteys-liike" ("Community') says that the Church of Finland is not changing any teachings of the Church or advocating gay marriages, just respect towards all persons (which obviously, some people have a problem with).

[PeterTheAleut]

^ One would have to learn Finnish to gain access to these documents.   

That's where www.translate.google.com comes in handy.

correctly if work that would only actually it Google would translate?

Yeah, there is that problem, too.  Translations that would even make Yoda wonder what was being said.   Oh well.  It takes a little extra deciphering, but I can generally make it work for me.

[SolEX01]

^^ ozgeorge, Thank you for the explanation.

All these translations from Finnish to English has really confused me.  I apologize for the trouble.  

[Theoprovlitos]

Finnish Roman Catholic bishop makes clear statement on the gay marriage issue while some Orthodox work for it.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/oct/09101314.html

The few Orthodox voices that resist are being persecuted. Lately Fr Timo Soisalo was removed from his parish after complaints by a Gay-married Lutheran that was member of the Orthodox choir (!) that Fr Timo gaves sermons against abortion, Islam and homosexual agenda.

The person who removed fr Timo is the Archpriest of the Helsinki parish Markku Salminen who -guess what? He is a freemason in the Swedish speaking Freemason order and he even gave a  speach at eh Fremason Christmas Convivium

Here is the link to the Freemason's bulletin 12/2009 with "brother" Markkus name as the main speaker in the Christmas (actually Juul - a pagan sxandinavian feast) convivium (page two).

http://arbetsordning.frimurarorden.fi/Infoblad.pdf

No wander who are promoting homosexuality in the Church in this New Order globalized world...
Freemasonly took over the Orthodox Church in Finland and is now promoting homosexuality.

More info at the Stop the Orthodox Gay cult group on facebook.

[mike]

Your sources say nothing about removing that Priest and as far as I know it can be done by a Bishop, not by the Presbyter.

[Tikhon.of.Colorado]

I can only think of maybe five non-Athonite monasteries that encourage non-Orthodox to leave at the dismissal of the catechumen. Even many Athonite monasteries in the US, Canada, Greece and Western Europe don't encourage it. Can't think of one monastery out of the dozens that I went to in Romania where it is practiced. Point being, it's rare, even at monasteries.

I am very new to Orthodoxy and have been a catechumen since August.  I've been to two monasteries in my life, both in my home state within the last few months, and at both of these catechumens were expected to either leave the church (at one), or step to the back part of the church (at the other), once the portion of the service leading to the Eucharist began. 

this is not at all on the subject of the disgussion, but, in my church I have yet to become a catechuman.  I will, though, with a wonderful couple that used to be massianic Jews.  we asked our priest, and he said catechumans are only asked to leave in very strict churches.  I did not know this was done here in the USA, (I figured it was just practiced at thousand-year-old cathedrals in Russia) 

[deusveritasest]

OH NOES!!!11 HOLY ORTHODOXY WILL BE OVERTHROWN BY THE GAY HERETICS!!!! 





*yawn* 

[Iconodule]

OH NOES!!!11 HOLY ORTHODOXY WILL BE OVERTHROWN BY THE GAY HERETICS!!!! 





*yawn* 

You're entitled to be uninterested in a topic that doesn't concern you, but it hardly makes sense to mock those who find this issue disturbing. It is serious business when an entire local Church comes under such domination.

[deusveritasest]

OH NOES!!!11 HOLY ORTHODOXY WILL BE OVERTHROWN BY THE GAY HERETICS!!!! 





*yawn* 

You're entitled to be uninterested in a topic that doesn't concern you, but it hardly makes sense to mock those who find this issue disturbing. It is serious business when an entire local Church comes under such domination.

The fact that you people take it so seriously is exactly what I am mocking.

[CRCulver]

The fact that you people take it so seriously is exactly what I am mocking.

How is it not serious when a church teaches false doctrine? Thousands of parishioners are getting a false impression of what the Church teaches, and you think we should just be okay with it?

[deusveritasest]

The fact that you people take it so seriously is exactly what I am mocking.

How is it not serious when a church teaches false doctrine? Thousands of parishioners are getting a false impression of what the Church teaches, and you think we should just be okay with it?

What false impression are you talking about?

[Iconodule]

The fact that you people take it so seriously is exactly what I am mocking.

How is it not serious when a church teaches false doctrine? Thousands of parishioners are getting a false impression of what the Church teaches, and you think we should just be okay with it?

What false impression are you talking about?

Um, that the Orthodox Church sanctions homosexuality and gay marriage?

[deusveritasest]

The fact that you people take it so seriously is exactly what I am mocking.

How is it not serious when a church teaches false doctrine? Thousands of parishioners are getting a false impression of what the Church teaches, and you think we should just be okay with it?

What false impression are you talking about?

Um, that the Orthodox Church sanctions homosexuality and gay marriage?

I don't see how this gives the impression that there is a general and explicit sanction.