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Poll
Question: Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 19 (26.8%)
Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to fight - 10 (14.1%)
Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates - 7 (9.9%)
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity - 20 (28.2%)
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 15 (21.1%)
Total Voters: 71

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Author Topic: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread  (Read 72031 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #945 on: December 24, 2009, 03:35:23 PM »

When the orthodox priest Heikki Huttunen with the blessings of the Orthodox Church represents ALL churhces as the secretary of the Ecumenical Counsil in Finland and speaks on BEHALF of the Lutheran Church of Finland too which IS in communion with the Swedish church, and actually leaders of the Finnish Lutheran Church work with Huttunen so that ecclesiastical gay marriages will be introduced in the Finnsh churches obviously they are in communion.

It's obvious. Thank you for having opened my eyes. I'll stop talking to my non-Orthodox friend because doing that I'll became a member of their Church and could get a homosexuality. It's very infectious.
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« Reply #946 on: December 24, 2009, 04:18:48 PM »

I always thought communion was defined by liturgical commemorations...
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« Reply #947 on: December 24, 2009, 04:21:26 PM »

I always thought communion was defined by liturgical commemorations...

You were wrong. It is defined by sitting in the same room.
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« Reply #948 on: December 24, 2009, 04:30:36 PM »

At last, 7 months after the original post where I have been scorned, warned etc at last I am justified.
Nothing justifies a Chicken Little message offered without proof.  The evidence Irish Hermit posted seems to verify your accusations, but this doesn't justify your original approach that started this thread nor the same panicked tone you've brought back to this thread.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 04:32:41 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #949 on: December 24, 2009, 05:45:57 PM »

At last, 7 months after the original post where I have been scorned, warned etc at last I am justified.
Nothing justifies a Chicken Little message offered without proof.  The evidence Irish Hermit posted seems to verify your accusations, but this doesn't justify your original approach that started this thread nor the same panicked tone you've brought back to this thread.

Peter,

What happened when Theo introduced this topic is standard for any whistleblower situation.   At first they are not believed, ridiculed and scorned.  They get panicky, thinking that what they know to be true is going to be buried under a pile of scepticism and the wrong will simply continue.   So their tone starts to get a little strident.   All quite normal in whistleblower situations.  Whistleblowers may not possess all the facts originally -they come to light slowly and piecemeal. But they do a great service to the Church and the world generally and should be given some credence.
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« Reply #950 on: December 27, 2009, 08:48:25 AM »

Nowadays I'm rarely in Finland, and for liturgy I prefer to schedule things so that I can attend the parish in Tallinn on the other side of the Baltic than in the Church of Finland. But I think the report does much to substantiate my fears voiced earlier this year that the Church of Finland is sliding towards "I'm OK, you're OK" rhetoric, horribly reminiscent of the Episcopal Church that I left for Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #951 on: December 27, 2009, 09:47:09 AM »

Church of Finland is sliding towards "I'm OK, you're OK" rhetoric, horribly reminiscent of the Episcopal Church that I left for Orthodoxy.
Why is it that its only the converts from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism who are over-reacting to this?
Could one of you converts please tell me what the Church of Finland has actually said to unsettle you?
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« Reply #952 on: December 28, 2009, 12:44:56 AM »

Why is it that its only the converts from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism who are over-reacting to this?

Well, on this forum we only have converts to Orthodoxy in Finland. In any event, the report compiled by the Brotherhood of St. Kosmas of Aitolia was penned by cradle Orthodox.

Quote
Could one of you converts please tell me what the Church of Finland has actually said to unsettle you?

Well, let me just take one example from the Aamun Koitto debacle: the official magazine of an autonomous Church prints an issue containing an interview with five eminent Orthodox, four of which say that homosexual partnerships are to be celebrated in the Orthodox Church. Can you imagine this happening anywhere else in the Orthodox world?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 12:45:14 AM by CRCulver » Logged
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« Reply #953 on: December 28, 2009, 05:09:04 PM »

So your answer is: "No, I can't point out any statement by the Church of Finland to justify my reaction".

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« Reply #954 on: December 28, 2009, 05:36:20 PM »

Church of Finland is sliding towards "I'm OK, you're OK" rhetoric, horribly reminiscent of the Episcopal Church that I left for Orthodoxy.
Why is it that its only the converts from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism who are over-reacting to this?
Could one of you converts please tell me what the Church of Finland has actually said to unsettle you?

Perhaps it is because they know to where such a road leads? Many converts enter Orthodoxy because they see it as a way to 'retreat' from the errors of their own Traditions. Orthodoxy claiming to be 'the' Church of God gives them confidence that such moral errors will befall the Orthodox Church. When they encounter moral slippage... it concerns them and perhaps casts doubt on their belief that Orthodoxy can with stand modernity.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 05:40:13 PM by ignatius » Logged

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« Reply #955 on: December 28, 2009, 05:40:26 PM »

So your answer is: "No, I can't point out any statement by the Church of Finland to justify my reaction".

Would it be realistic to expect the Church of Finland to issue an overt statement that it is soft on the homosexual issue?   

I can imagine that would cause a percentage of its members to move into the Moscow parishes.
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« Reply #956 on: December 28, 2009, 06:07:42 PM »

Would it be realistic to expect the Church of Finland to issue an overt statement that it is soft on the homosexual issue?   

Yes, it would. From that text:
Quote
The Episcopal Synod states that the members of the clergy have committed themselves either to marital life or celibacy. It is the demand and ideal starting from the personal decision made by each member of the clergy. The teaching of the Church cannot be revised on the basis of signing any declaration. It is valuable that the Orthodox who have signed the declaration state this: ‘We aren’t creating any new practices into the life of the Church or draw parallels between homosexual partnership and marriage’.
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« Reply #957 on: December 28, 2009, 06:16:42 PM »

Would it be realistic to expect the Church of Finland to issue an overt statement that it is soft on the homosexual issue?   

Yes, it would. From that text:
Quote
The Episcopal Synod states that the members of the clergy have committed themselves either to marital life or celibacy. It is the demand and ideal starting from the personal decision made by each member of the clergy. The teaching of the Church cannot be revised on the basis of signing any declaration. It is valuable that the Orthodox who have signed the declaration state this: ‘We aren’t creating any new practices into the life of the Church or draw parallels between homosexual partnership and marriage’.

Notice there is no condemnation of homosexual partnerships for the laity.  Merely a statement that they are not drawing parallels between partnership and marriage.  Cleverly phrased to leave the door open.  "He who has ears..."
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« Reply #958 on: December 28, 2009, 06:25:15 PM »

... and are not creating any new practises into the life of Church.
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« Reply #959 on: December 28, 2009, 06:36:04 PM »

... and are not creating any new practises into the life of Church.

Yes, that's true.  Homosexuality has been found to exist in the Church since the beginning.  The Church is no more immune to it than the rest of the human race.
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« Reply #960 on: December 29, 2009, 02:23:43 AM »

Well, on this forum we only have converts to Orthodoxy in Finland. In any event, the report compiled by the Brotherhood of St. Kosmas of Aitolia was penned by cradle Orthodox.

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.

Quote
Well, let me just take one example from the Aamun Koitto debacle: the official magazine of an autonomous Church prints an issue containing an interview with five eminent Orthodox, four of which say that homosexual partnerships are to be celebrated in the Orthodox Church. Can you imagine this happening anywhere else in the Orthodox world?

You will have to just ignore some of the posters on this forum. They believe the Orthodox Church will bless gay unions at some point in time. Don't fall for their questioning or bullying tactics (ie: blaming converts). Ignore them. Many of us already do. Just keep reporting what you have seen or heard.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 02:24:12 AM by Tamara » Logged
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« Reply #961 on: December 29, 2009, 03:16:34 AM »

Well, on this forum we only have converts to Orthodoxy in Finland. In any event, the report compiled by the Brotherhood of St. Kosmas of Aitolia was penned by cradle Orthodox.

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.

Quote
Well, let me just take one example from the Aamun Koitto debacle: the official magazine of an autonomous Church prints an issue containing an interview with five eminent Orthodox, four of which say that homosexual partnerships are to be celebrated in the Orthodox Church. Can you imagine this happening anywhere else in the Orthodox world?

You will have to just ignore some of the posters on this forum. They believe the Orthodox Church will bless gay unions at some point in time. Don't fall for their questioning or bullying tactics (ie: blaming converts). Ignore them. Many of us already do. Just keep reporting what you have seen or heard.

Stop the Gay Orthodox Cult must be the site.
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=49700569468

I don’t subscribe to facebook so I cannot see the member list, but I heard that my Archbishop was a member of this site.  Many years Master!

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« Reply #962 on: December 29, 2009, 03:27:03 AM »

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.
So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.
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« Reply #963 on: December 29, 2009, 03:31:04 AM »

You will have to just ignore some of the posters on this forum. They believe the Orthodox Church will bless gay unions at some point in time. Don't fall for their questioning or bullying tactics (ie: blaming converts). Ignore them. Many of us already do. Just keep reporting what you have seen or heard.

I agree that we should be alert to any lobbying on the Forum to advance the homosexual agenda.  With such a huge membership it is to be expected that we have a great diversity of views on the question.

One thing that should not be done is to assume that because there are no solid official statements from the bishops that the Finnish problem is a fantasy.   I would say that the bishops prefer to work quietly, without creating scandal in the public media; demanding that people present official statements from the bishops without which they have no case is simply a tactic to muzzle people.

However, if you look back through this thread you will find articles from Finland's neighbouring Russian Church which express deep concern about the situation which has developed in the Finnish Church with regard to homosexuality.
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« Reply #964 on: December 29, 2009, 03:35:31 AM »

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

No, the Brotherhood is a recognized group of Finnish Orthodox which were founded well before the recent events. The Greek fellow has just been trying to spread the findings of the Brotherhood to other Orthodox Churches.
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« Reply #965 on: December 29, 2009, 03:44:23 AM »

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.
So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska).
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« Reply #966 on: December 29, 2009, 03:55:46 AM »

I noticed that too. He seems to be a Greek gentleman who even started a site on Facebook explaining the situation in Finland.
So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

If you're referring to the "Stop the Orthodox Gay Cult" thing, they actually have 99 people. And fwiw, they have an OCA bishop as a member, Bp. Melchisedek (Pleska).
No I'm not, I'm referring to the "Brotherhood of St. Cosmas Aitolos" in Finland.
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« Reply #967 on: December 29, 2009, 04:00:38 AM »

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

The Brotherood is far more than a "lone crackpot."   The Brotherhood's concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church.

The Question About Homosexuals 20.3.2007

The Question About Homosexuals is Complicating Relationships Between the Orthodox in Russia and Finland


"Attitudes towards homosexuals is becoming the key issue of Orthodox church politics. The Russian media has presented the gay-liberal outlining of Finnish orthodox priests, which is strictly condemned by the Patriarchate of Moscow.

"According to Russian sources, the visibly positive attitude towards homosexuality in the Finnish Orthodox circles might expedite the Patriarchate of Moscow to take the decision to establish a Russian diocese in Finland..."

Read article at
http://sateenkaariseura.wordpress.com/articles-from-other-sites/the-question-about-homosexuals-2032007/
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« Reply #968 on: December 29, 2009, 04:37:58 AM »

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

The Brotherood is far more than a "lone crackpot."   The Brotherhood's concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church.

Any lone crackpot on the internet can call themselves a "Brotherhood", but it doesn't make them more than one person. There are may lone crackpots who start websites about Freemasons controlling the USA and just because their "concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church", doesn't make them any less lone or any less crackpot. Calling yourself a "Brotherhood" doesn't make you one. Or perhaps I'm wrong Irish Hermit, perhaps you have access to the extensive member list of the "Brotherhood of St. Cosmas Aitolos"? Surely, if "they" want to show any credibility, they will say "who" they are and not simply publish things anonymously. That would give the impression that they are not a "Brotherhood" at all, but just a lone crackpot with a keyboard.

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« Reply #969 on: December 29, 2009, 04:53:06 AM »

So this "Brotherhood" is just another lone crackpot with a keyboard.

The Brotherood is far more than a "lone crackpot."   The Brotherhood's concerns are shared by much wider circles in the Church.

Any lone crackpot on the internet can call themselves a "Brotherhood", but it doesn't make them more than one person.............. <snip> Calling yourself a "Brotherhood" doesn't make you one. Or perhaps I'm wrong Irish Hermit, perhaps you have access to the extensive member list of the "Brotherhood of St. Cosmas Aitolos"?

I don't really understand what you are wanting to say?  Are you saying that you have access to some membership list for this Brotherhood which shows it is just one person?
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« Reply #970 on: December 29, 2009, 04:59:59 AM »

I'm sure he finds these reports fishy because they seem like small operations without any official synodal backing.

But it would also be noted that the efforts might irritate him because he personally supports homosexual unions in the Orthodox Church.  I don't say this to try and create conflict, but just to put his views on the table for those who aren't aware.  Forgive me if this is not proper for me to do.
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« Reply #971 on: December 29, 2009, 05:01:53 AM »

Surely, if "they" want to show any credibility, they will say "who" they are and not simply publish things anonymously.

There are credits in the report.

The Brotherhood has received recognition by the Finnish Orthodox Church as a legitimate organization of lay Orthodox and they have published a number of books for the Finnish Orthodox community by a variety of authors. But hey, keep pretending it's merely some lone crackpot just because you don't like the message.
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« Reply #972 on: December 29, 2009, 05:02:06 AM »

I don't really understand what you are wanting to say? 
Exactly what I am saying. If a "group" wishes to issue a "report" the way the "Brotherhood" of St. Cosmas has, then surely, if "they" want to claim any credibility then "they" will say who the "persons" of the group were which complied and issued the report. What kind of idiot would believe a "report" without knowing who compiles and issues it?
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« Reply #973 on: December 29, 2009, 05:31:29 AM »

If a "group" wishes to issue a "report" the way the "Brotherhood" of St. Cosmas has, then surely, if "they" want to claim any credibility then "they" will say who the "persons" of the group were which complied and issued the report. What kind of idiot would believe a "report" without knowing who compiles and issues it?

 laugh  One could also ask:  what kind of idiot can read a report without noticing that it finishes with contact details for the Society's Chairman and Vice Chairman.  I imagine the contact details are provided so that people with enquiries may contact them.

Contacts of The Brotherhood of Saint Kosmas of Aitolia
Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö ry

Chairman Mr Hannu Pöyhönen
stomen.kalos@kolumbus.fi

and

Vice Chairman Mr Markus Paavola
marpaavo@yahoo.co.uk

For further information (mainly in Finnish), please see at internet www.kosmas.fi

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« Reply #974 on: December 29, 2009, 05:42:56 AM »

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.
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« Reply #975 on: December 29, 2009, 05:55:23 AM »

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Since Ozgeorge continues to post comments whose only purpose is to impede discussion, I suggest this thread be closed.
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« Reply #976 on: December 29, 2009, 05:56:57 AM »

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Since Ozgeorge continues to post comments whose only purpose is to impede discussion, I suggest this thread be closed.

It should have been closed from the start since no one can present anything but gossip and a "report" from a lay nobody.
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« Reply #977 on: December 29, 2009, 05:59:01 AM »

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Dear George,

People in the higher echelons of the Church see it a little more seriously.

Here is a statement from the priest who heads the Secretariat for Inter-Orthodox Relations of ROCOR.   PLease note that the response from Moscow also treats it seriously  ~ unless you think there is a contingent of crackpot Russian priests sitting at their keyboards and plotting how to destroy homosexuals in the Church of Finland.   Huh

"When this Finnish aberration was discovered, the Secretariat for
Inter-Orthodox Relations of the ROCOR sent a formal note expressing
deep concern about this issue to the Department of External Relations
of the Moscow Patriarchate.

"A response was received, informing us that the MP had already been
informed of the Finnish situation by the local MP priest there, and
that an appropriate measures would be taken.

"(Of course, the Orthodox Church of Finland is an autonomous
Archbishopric under the jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate,
so that neither the Moscow Patriarchate nor ROCOR have any authority
over it).

"... Both the ROCOR and the MP have taken note of the situation with
regards to this "Rainbow" Conference in Finland, and are in communication
as to how to condemn it in the strongest possible way.


"With love in Christ,
"Prot. Alexander Lebedeff"
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« Reply #978 on: December 29, 2009, 06:02:07 AM »

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Dear George,

People in the higher echelons of the Church see it a little more seriously.

A Priest in ROCOR hardly qualifies as "the higher echelons of the Church".
Unless one is subject to grandiose delusions.
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« Reply #979 on: December 29, 2009, 06:03:26 AM »

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Since Ozgeorge continues to post comments whose only purpose is to impede discussion, I suggest this thread be closed.

George is usually riding shotgun for the gay lobby and his purpose with these silly posts is probably to get this thread closed.  I suppose we could all do the same for topics when we want to impede sensible discussion.

This thread has been open for quite some time.  I don't believe it ought to be closed since the topic will certainly continue to throw up fresh information and reports.   
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« Reply #980 on: December 29, 2009, 06:06:36 AM »

I am the Chairman of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
I can't possibly be a lone crackpot with a keyboard because I am a Chairman of a Brotherhood.

Dear George,

People in the higher echelons of the Church see it a little more seriously.

A Priest in ROCOR hardly qualifies as "the higher echelons of the Church".
Unless one is subject to grandiose delusions.

He was one of the key negotiators for the union of Moscow and the Russian Church Abroad and enjoys great respect in both Churches.  His enquiry to Moscow about Finland and the homosexual issue would not have been made without approval from the Primate of the Russian Church Abroad.
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« Reply #981 on: December 29, 2009, 06:06:56 AM »

George is usually riding shotgun for the gay lobby
Is he now?
How wise you are.

his purpose with these silly posts is probably to get this thread closed.
Hell no. I'm having too much fun watching you guys.

the topic will certainly continue to throw up fresh information and reports.
No doubt it will- at least the kind of "reports" schismatic nutjobs would consider important.
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« Reply #982 on: December 29, 2009, 06:08:20 AM »

He was one of the key negotiators for the union of Moscow and the Russian Church Abroad
Which of the many Russian Churches Abroard was that? ROCOR-L? ROCOR-V? ROCIE? ......
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« Reply #983 on: December 29, 2009, 06:10:08 AM »

George is usually riding shotgun for the gay lobby
Is he now?
How wise you are.

his purpose with these silly posts is probably to get this thread closed.
Hell no. I'm having too much fun watching you guys.

the topic will certainly continue to throw up fresh information and reports.
No doubt it will- at least the kind of "reports" schismatic nutjobs would consider important.

Will all the "schismatic nutjobs" in this thread stand up and take a bow.
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« Reply #984 on: December 29, 2009, 06:13:35 AM »

Will all the "schismatic nutjobs" in this thread stand up and take a bow.
Especially the ones who were in schism from those Sergianists in Moscow.
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« Reply #985 on: December 29, 2009, 06:13:55 AM »

He was one of the key negotiators for the union of Moscow and the Russian Church Abroad
Which of the many Russian Churches Abroard was that?

I give you the credit of having a comprehensive knowledge of the Church and so this would seem a question designed merely to provoke.

The answer though is:  The Russian Church Abroad with which your Australian Greek Archbishop and your priest concelebrate and commune.  Kiss
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« Reply #986 on: December 29, 2009, 06:16:17 AM »

Sadly, we haven't concelebrated with ROCOR.
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« Reply #987 on: December 29, 2009, 06:18:35 AM »

Sadly, we haven't concelebrated with ROCOR.

You haven't?   Here in New Zealand it is quite normal for our clergy and the Greek clergy (including Metropolitan Amphilochios) to concelebrate.   Why isn't it happening in Oz?
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« Reply #988 on: December 29, 2009, 06:39:21 AM »

This is no way to speak to the Junior Vice President of the Brotherhood of St. Tibulus.
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« Reply #989 on: December 29, 2009, 10:57:41 AM »


It should have been closed from the start since no one can present anything but gossip and a "report" from a lay nobody.

Huh. And here I thought Orthodoxy embraced lay nobodies. I thought there was a history of lay nobodies in the Orthodox Church. So you are saying that a theologian is not one who truly prays, and one who truly prays is not a theologian? Apparently a theologian is someone that has "bishop" in front of their name, this title bestowing magical powers, with God depositing an encyclopedic knowledge into the cleric's head.
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