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Poll
Question: Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 19 (26.8%)
Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to fight - 10 (14.1%)
Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates - 7 (9.9%)
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity - 20 (28.2%)
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 15 (21.1%)
Total Voters: 71

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Author Topic: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread  (Read 66473 times) Average Rating: 0
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calligraphqueen
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« Reply #90 on: June 29, 2006, 08:52:57 AM »

Anastasios, I do not limit my contact to homosexuals behaviors simply because I am thinking about what they do in private.  It's rarely private!  For me, I am an active duty mother protecting young boys and little girls.  I think in that frame of reference because it's my calling right now-and I take it seriously.  In my work with women harmed by sexual brokenness, one issue that kept coming up was their man's fondness of young boys.  It's a common factor, and one that immediately puts me on guard because I have young boys to protect.  There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.  Sexual brokenness bleeds in to many aspects of their lives and nearly takes over their life, in many many cases.  There are probably some loving quiet homosexual people out there, but I have yet to meet a one.  Maybe our area only draws the kind that are out to make a statement?  I don't know. 
I think there is a wall because I am fully mothering small children, and one of the gay community's biggest agenda's is to reprogram small children into thinking homosexuality is acceptable.  That creates a wall for me right off the bat, a line in the sand so to speak.  There are SO many attacks on little children and their minds and hearts, I try to shield some of those incoming missiles as best I can.  I am offended by those that launch them-whomever they may be.  Is a homosexual sin any worse than a hetero one?  Hardly, I was molested by a heterosexual man and I hold that sin just as wrong. My dd was molested by her gay uncle. It's all wrong.  I believe sexual sin is just so vile because it preys upon the young, the babies, our little daughters and sons. That is the enemy's way.  I was once told that satan has a particular hatred for women and children.  I would hardly disagree. Sexual predators abound, but it's going to be worse when the root behavior is considered "acceptable" by the masses.  Once they get you to okay their lifestyle, they feed you a bit more cripe and a bit more. It's the same slippery slope that started with legalized abortion, now those same folks want partial birth abortion ( a procedure that is NEVER needed and is horrific in nature) and euthanasia for folks deemed useless or too old, etc.  Once we accept that which is wrong, we become desensitized.
Is my wall one of protection or hatred?  I don't believe it's the latter, there isn't a feeling of hatred in my spirit.  I admit to being fed up with the overacting and feminizing-especially of dd's uncle (who got away with it)  I mean, I knew him before the act, the effect, the lisp and the swish.  Being fed up is not that abnormal.
As far as the good samaritan analogy, I am not sure it applies.  What opportunity to minister have I been afforded and then rejected?  Having dd's gay uncle and his multiple boyfriends over for tea??  Have them over for a bar-b-que and hope none take a shine to my handsome little boys?  The only exposure to gays I have had is in San Fran where it's all a show meant to gag you, or with folks that come to pick a fight with Jerry in the next town over-so again it's all for show.  I ONLY know of, or find the ones that have the agenda-not the ones going about living their lives quietly.  Might just be the environment here is ripe, who knows?
It really bugs me that a person like me, a mother, cannot stand up and say I don't want this for my children.  It makes me a biggot or vengeful in some way.  NO it doesn't!
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« Reply #91 on: June 29, 2006, 05:30:26 PM »

Anastasios, I do not limit my contact to homosexuals behaviors simply because I am thinking about what they do in private.ÂÂ  It's rarely private!ÂÂ  For me, I am an active duty mother protecting young boys and little girls.ÂÂ  I think in that frame of reference because it's my calling right now-and I take it seriously.ÂÂ  In my work with women harmed by sexual brokenness, one issue that kept coming up was their man's fondness of young boys.ÂÂ  It's a common factor, and one that immediately puts me on guard because I have young boys to protect.ÂÂ  There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.ÂÂ  Sexual brokenness bleeds in to many aspects of their lives and nearly takes over their life, in many many cases.ÂÂ  There are probably some loving quiet homosexual people out there, but I have yet to meet a one.ÂÂ  Maybe our area only draws the kind that are out to make a statement?ÂÂ  I don't know.ÂÂ  
I think there is a wall because I am fully mothering small children, and one of the gay community's biggest agenda's is to reprogram small children into thinking homosexuality is acceptable.ÂÂ  That creates a wall for me right off the bat, a line in the sand so to speak.ÂÂ  There are SO many attacks on little children and their minds and hearts, I try to shield some of those incoming missiles as best I can.ÂÂ  I am offended by those that launch them-whomever they may be.ÂÂ  Is a homosexual sin any worse than a hetero one?ÂÂ  Hardly, I was molested by a heterosexual man and I hold that sin just as wrong. My dd was molested by her gay uncle. It's all wrong.ÂÂ  I believe sexual sin is just so vile because it preys upon the young, the babies, our little daughters and sons. That is the enemy's way.ÂÂ  I was once told that satan has a particular hatred for women and children.ÂÂ  I would hardly disagree. Sexual predators abound, but it's going to be worse when the root behavior is considered "acceptable" by the masses.ÂÂ  Once they get you to okay their lifestyle, they feed you a bit more cripe and a bit more. It's the same slippery slope that started with legalized abortion, now those same folks want partial birth abortion ( a procedure that is NEVER needed and is horrific in nature) and euthanasia for folks deemed useless or too old, etc.ÂÂ  Once we accept that which is wrong, we become desensitized.
Is my wall one of protection or hatred?ÂÂ  I don't believe it's the latter, there isn't a feeling of hatred in my spirit.ÂÂ  I admit to being fed up with the overacting and feminizing-especially of dd's uncle (who got away with it)ÂÂ  I mean, I knew him before the act, the effect, the lisp and the swish.ÂÂ  Being fed up is not that abnormal.
As far as the good samaritan analogy, I am not sure it applies.ÂÂ  What opportunity to minister have I been afforded and then rejected?ÂÂ  Having dd's gay uncle and his multiple boyfriends over for tea??ÂÂ  Have them over for a bar-b-que and hope none take a shine to my handsome little boys?ÂÂ  The only exposure to gays I have had is in San Fran where it's all a show meant to gag you, or with folks that come to pick a fight with Jerry in the next town over-so again it's all for show.ÂÂ  I ONLY know of, or find the ones that have the agenda-not the ones going about living their lives quietly.ÂÂ  Might just be the environment here is ripe, who knows?
It really bugs me that a person like me, a mother, cannot stand up and say I don't want this for my children.ÂÂ  It makes me a biggot or vengeful in some way.ÂÂ  NO it doesn't!
Good luck raising your chiildren, the child in your avatar looks full of vitality and very cute.
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« Reply #92 on: June 29, 2006, 08:24:19 PM »

Anastasios, I do not limit my contact to homosexuals behaviors simply because I am thinking about what they do in private.ÂÂ  It's rarely private!ÂÂ  For me, I am an active duty mother protecting young boys and little girls.ÂÂ  I think in that frame of reference because it's my calling right now-and I take it seriously.ÂÂ  In my work with women harmed by sexual brokenness, one issue that kept coming up was their man's fondness of young boys.ÂÂ  It's a common factor, and one that immediately puts me on guard because I have young boys to protect.ÂÂ  There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.ÂÂ  Sexual brokenness bleeds in to many aspects of their lives and nearly takes over their life, in many many cases.ÂÂ  There are probably some loving quiet homosexual people out there, but I have yet to meet a one.ÂÂ  Maybe our area only draws the kind that are out to make a statement?ÂÂ  I don't know.ÂÂ  
I think there is a wall because I am fully mothering small children, and one of the gay community's biggest agenda's is to reprogram small children into thinking homosexuality is acceptable.ÂÂ  That creates a wall for me right off the bat, a line in the sand so to speak.ÂÂ  There are SO many attacks on little children and their minds and hearts, I try to shield some of those incoming missiles as best I can.ÂÂ  I am offended by those that launch them-whomever they may be.ÂÂ  Is a homosexual sin any worse than a hetero one?ÂÂ  Hardly, I was molested by a heterosexual man and I hold that sin just as wrong. My dd was molested by her gay uncle. It's all wrong.ÂÂ  I believe sexual sin is just so vile because it preys upon the young, the babies, our little daughters and sons. That is the enemy's way.ÂÂ  I was once told that satan has a particular hatred for women and children.ÂÂ  I would hardly disagree. Sexual predators abound, but it's going to be worse when the root behavior is considered "acceptable" by the masses.ÂÂ  Once they get you to okay their lifestyle, they feed you a bit more cripe and a bit more. It's the same slippery slope that started with legalized abortion, now those same folks want partial birth abortion ( a procedure that is NEVER needed and is horrific in nature) and euthanasia for folks deemed useless or too old, etc.ÂÂ  Once we accept that which is wrong, we become desensitized.
Is my wall one of protection or hatred?ÂÂ  I don't believe it's the latter, there isn't a feeling of hatred in my spirit.ÂÂ  I admit to being fed up with the overacting and feminizing-especially of dd's uncle (who got away with it)ÂÂ  I mean, I knew him before the act, the effect, the lisp and the swish.ÂÂ  Being fed up is not that abnormal.
As far as the good samaritan analogy, I am not sure it applies.ÂÂ  What opportunity to minister have I been afforded and then rejected?ÂÂ  Having dd's gay uncle and his multiple boyfriends over for tea??ÂÂ  Have them over for a bar-b-que and hope none take a shine to my handsome little boys?ÂÂ  The only exposure to gays I have had is in San Fran where it's all a show meant to gag you, or with folks that come to pick a fight with Jerry in the next town over-so again it's all for show.ÂÂ  I ONLY know of, or find the ones that have the agenda-not the ones going about living their lives quietly.ÂÂ  Might just be the environment here is ripe, who knows?
It really bugs me that a person like me, a mother, cannot stand up and say I don't want this for my children.ÂÂ  It makes me a biggot or vengeful in some way.ÂÂ  NO it doesn't!

Honestly, the world needs more mothers like you. I don't think I need to explain.

May the Lord protect you and your children,

Sloga
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« Reply #93 on: June 29, 2006, 08:34:36 PM »

There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.
This is paedophilia, not homosexuality. It almost sounds like it would be "OK" for men to have sexual relations with minors provided they are female. The man who sexually attacked my 2 year old Goddaughter had also attacked boys.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2006, 08:38:10 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #94 on: June 29, 2006, 09:12:36 PM »

Oz, is there such a thing as homosexual pedophilia?  If a man likes small boys, to me it is both.  But then the man that attacked my dd liked anything sexual he could get his hands on then, and now seems to limit himself to only males. I don't think it's okay either way personally, just so that is clear. Undecided
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« Reply #95 on: June 29, 2006, 09:36:55 PM »

I think there is a very real danger of confusing homosexuality with paedophilia, calligraphqueen. They are not the same. Homosexuality is an attraction to the same sex. Paedophilia is an attraction to children. Both are passions, but the danger lies in assuming that it is homosexuals that children need to be protected from, and while we keep a watchful eye on them, the real danger of a paedophile creeps in.
I would appreciate some evidence for your claim that:
There are many homosexual activists that are trying to change laws for man/boy love.
Are they "Homosexual activists" or "Paedophile activists"?
The difference is this: a homosexual activist seeks rights for consenting adults. A paedophile activist seeks rights for adults over children.
I'm not questioning your right to protect your children from those who seek to morally justify homosexual acts- I applaud it. But the greater danger to children comes not from homosexuals, but from paedophiles- who are much better at hiding who they are, and who target children. At least you know where you stand with an openly gay man or woman, whereas exposing your children to someone you least suspect (and statistically is most likely to be married) could be exposing them to a paedophile.
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« Reply #96 on: June 29, 2006, 09:52:10 PM »

"Paedophilia involves intense sexual urges and sexual activity with prepubescent children. Two thirds of molested children are girls, usually between the ages of 8 and 11. To meet the diagnostic criteria, a paedophile must be at least 16 years old and at least five years older than the victim. Most paedophiles are men, but there are cases of women having repeated sexual contact with children. In 90% of cases the molester is known to the child, and 15% (possibly more) are relatives. Most paedophiles are heterosexual and are often married with their own children, although they commonly have marital or sexual difficulties or problems with alcohol misuse. Eighty per cent have a history of childhood sexual abuse." Source: British Medical Journal

"In "journoworld" (by no means exclusively tabloid or the hitherto gutter press), celibacy is a convenient institution on which to hang paedophilia. Most of us know that there is no connection, that most paedophiles are married. Any responsible research shows that celibate Catholic priests and religious or Buddhist monks are no more inclined to abuse children than the married clergy in any other religious denomination. Celibacy is a soft target, now as much as during the Reformation." Source: The Brandsma Review
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« Reply #97 on: June 30, 2006, 01:15:35 PM »

I think that my discernment is, sadly, born out of experience.  I think it is a skill picked up on the battle field.
I never claimed that all pedophiles were homosexual, far from it.  The man who severely molested my mother was her father, and he was a literal member of the "sex before 8, or it's too late club"  Yes, there is such a thing, and it's membership is not limited to heterosexual males.

I claim that any time a person bends the rules of sexuality put in place by their creator, and goes further and further down the path of a life of sexual deviance-that all bets are off.  Just like the man that is at first content with a little soft porn, then needs more hardcore, then needs the real thing, then starts "flashing" people, then starts molesting his daughter, then goes for more and more and more... Ever seen the interview with Dobson and Ted Bundy?  Once you tasted of perversion of purity of anykind, it typically doesn't stop right there.  A little peek or touch isn't enough anymore.  Same thing with my own father.  And the same thing with my daughter, while in the care of her idiot dad,  her gay uncle molested her.  He wasn't the "flaming gay" we all know now back then, just a very confused boy.
We can't limit pedophilia to heterosexual men, or women for that matter.  Of course it's not a given that a gay person is also a pedophile, and that wasn't my claim.  Yes, pedophilia and homosexuality are different, so is pedophilia and beastiality- but sexual perversion blurs the lines of what is right and wrong and there is a lot of crossover.  That is my experience anyway.  That experience is based on women I have worked with ( I did not counsel their male partners since that wasn't the set up in place) and my own battered life as sexual prey, as well as my daughter's.  It absolutely amazes me that sexuality is such a monstrously important issue in our society.  it's just sex, whether you do it with men or women or both or animals or tables or whatever.  Is there nothing more to the human existence than sex?  There are those out there that would have us and our children believing that is the case.
Celibacy in our society, here in the US anyway, is looked upon as weak.  In reality, it would take great care, determination, committment and a strong Faith to make it happen.  It's a lot easier to go with one's urges, I should think.
I do not mean to offend, or to suggest that all gays/lesbians are also pedophiles.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I do contend that when you step into the cesspool of sexual perversion, you are going to be covered with what's in the pit and it will affect everything you see and touch.  One has to get out of the cesspool, cease going back to it like a dog to vomit, and focus on their eternity. That's hardly limited to homosexuality.
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« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2006, 01:29:46 PM »

I think that my discernment is, sadly, born out of experience.ÂÂ  I think it is a skill picked up on the battle field.
I never claimed that all pedophiles were homosexual, far from it.ÂÂ  The man who severely molested my mother was her father, and he was a literal member of the "sex before 8, or it's too late club"ÂÂ  Yes, there is such a thing, and it's membership is not limited to heterosexual males.

Your opinion may have some merit within your experience, but it doesn't seem to measure up to research and data on the subject. Research seems to suggest that Homosexuality is mostly phenotypical in nature, where as pedophilia is primarily psychological. Thus, to compare the two is to compare apples and oranges; whether or not one has tendencies towards pedophilia should be independent of whether they're homosexual or heterosexual. Ozgeorge had some good studies and statistics to support his conclusions, do you have know of any data or studies that could give support to your opinion on the matter?
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« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2006, 01:39:51 PM »

Ozgeorge had some good studies and statistics to support his conclusions, do you have know of any data or studies that could give support to your opinion on the matter?

Her opinion on the matter is that she wants to protect her kids from sexual deviance. Thus, her concern is motherly and practical, not propositional.
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« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2006, 09:45:50 PM »

Her opinion on the matter is that she wants to protect her kids from sexual deviance. Thus, her concern is motherly and practical, not propositional.

An opinion stated dogmatically, though at odds with current scientific research in the field. Though my concern is academic and intellictual, not reactionary.
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« Reply #101 on: June 24, 2007, 09:13:18 AM »

Just finished using the tag feature and a google site search to compile a list of seperate threads directly dealing with the topic of homosexuality on this forum to date. The list is by no means exaustive, and was the result of searching only for the keyword "homosexual" (not "gay" etc).


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,10774.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5260.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11688.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5459.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11890.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11897.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,3825.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,6577.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,48.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8458.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8122.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,8068.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9156.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9360.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9330.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9297.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7531.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11954.0.html


http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5780.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,5780.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,11322.0.html

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9135.0.html
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« Reply #102 on: June 24, 2007, 09:50:58 AM »

quote by cleveland

How about #6: It is a socially unacceptable sin (unlike adultery, which at times is okay as long as it isn't public) that makes the perpetrator to seem more like a leper than the rest of us, who commit sins of equal magnitude yet because they are socially "acceptable" or "normal" don't get the condemnation.  THus, we use the internet like a lynch mob starting ground, to stir up anger at a sin which is just as bad as the anger and fury we wish to unleash upon it (specifically because our anger is not righteous anger, but rather fearful and ignorant).


Yes.  Well said.

I've often thought that homosexuality is one of the favorite things of many conservatives.  They sure talk about it enough.  I think that is because homosexuality gives them something to hate in others, and it thereby allows them to overlook their own sins.  After all, heterosexual adultery and fornication and pornography are much more widespread and damaging to society; yet, it is the gays who are the targets of the most intense hatred.  I think being anti-gay also allows many preachers, priests, and ministers to lead safely (and sometimes lucratively) without worrying about alienating their congregations (who are often also their employers).  It also sometimes seems like a kind of tribalism, by which the members of a group define theselves by whom they hate.  Finally, I think some people are repulsed by homosexuality, for a variety of reasons, and they use religion as a socially acceptable means of expressing their revulsion. 

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« Reply #103 on: June 24, 2007, 09:52:17 AM »

Interestingly, in some ancient cultures it was considered more manly to have homosexual relations. Though I should say, lest I give the wrong impression by my recent posts, that I am not a homosexual myself Smiley  "Not that there's anything wrong with that."
I don't know if it was considered 'more manly', but I know that in some cultures it was considered acceptable as long as you were doing the penetrating.  The guy recieving would not have been considered manly at all.
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« Reply #104 on: June 24, 2007, 10:01:50 AM »

Personally, I'm sick of the subject. Coming out of evangelical Protestantism, it seemed homosexuality was the worst of all sins, and I heard endless sermons blasting gays for all the problems of society. Orthodoxy I know is more reasonable about the subject, but still...Can't people talk about moral issues that don't have to do with sex?
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« Reply #105 on: June 24, 2007, 10:07:48 AM »

Personally, I'm sick of the subject. Coming out of evangelical Protestantism, it seemed homosexuality was the worst of all sins, and I heard endless sermons blasting gays for all the problems of society. Orthodoxy I know is more reasonable about the subject, but still...Can't people talk about moral issues that don't have to do with sex?
What did you vote in the poll? I've gone for the Prozac theory.

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« Reply #106 on: June 24, 2007, 10:28:34 AM »

Personally, I'm sick of the subject. Coming out of evangelical Protestantism, it seemed homosexuality was the worst of all sins, and I heard endless sermons blasting gays for all the problems of society. Orthodoxy I know is more reasonable about the subject, but still...Can't people talk about moral issues that don't have to do with sex?

Oh!  I like that idea.  You mean that people could look at things like lying and cheating and gossping and pride and stealing and how that affects how we deal with other people? 

The idea of "Moral issues = sex" is an easy one for people to get on to because, imo, it often becomes "look at what *that* perverted person is doing and how wrong it is" rather then looking at oneself.

Ebor
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« Reply #107 on: June 24, 2007, 10:34:39 AM »

I agree with what Cleveland said. Homosexuality is just a convenient, easy target.

Personally, I would never raise this issue. I understand that all our sins are just that - sins. A so-called "heterosexual" who sins is not any better than a so-called "homosexual" who sins.
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« Reply #108 on: June 24, 2007, 01:13:42 PM »

What did you vote in the poll? I've gone for the Prozac theory.

Only because potential side effects of SSRI's are ED and diminished libido...thus helping to bring some of the closet cases down and lets them worry about things other than where they can and cannot stick a certain appendage...of course this unfortunately only works about half the time, so we'll keep seeing the self-hating anti-gay posts from the other half, even after they get on their prozac. Wink
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« Reply #109 on: June 24, 2007, 06:37:48 PM »

I'm agreeing with other posters who said that there are other, more important issues in Orthodoxy than this. 
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« Reply #110 on: June 24, 2007, 06:48:52 PM »

I'm agreeing with other posters who said that there are other, more important issues in Orthodoxy than this. 

But we shouldn't be afraid to talk about this and continue to expound the truth.  Nor should we trumpet it every single second and mock and condemn homosexuals like those radicals out of Topeka, KS led by Phelps.  I was in Topeka last week and I saw a few of them with their trademark signs which I will not lay out here.  Scary!
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« Reply #111 on: June 24, 2007, 07:07:05 PM »

^
I'm not afraid to talk about it, I just see homosexuality as pretty much a non-issue among Orthodox. We don't condemn people who struggle with same-sex attraction, but most of those who do struggle with it treat it properly, as sin but no less or greater than any other sin. They work with their priests to overcome the temptation, same as all of us.

I'm agreeing with other posters who said that there are other, more important issues in Orthodoxy than this. 

Absolutely. I'm not saying that this isn't an important issue; we as Orthodox need to be acutely aware of the effects of sin, of whatever kind. Yet there are definitely many issues which affect many more people that are not being addressed as well by the Church. Money, for example, was Jesus' number-one most preached-about topic, yet many of our churches fail to preach about the proper uses of money, except to encourage tithing. If Christians were as concerned about money as they were about homosexuality, we could put a significant dent in the fiscal irresponsibility this country is heavily involved in. And that's just one example. I for one would love to see on this board people tackle some really tough moral issues. I think I'll bring some up myself, as well.
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« Reply #112 on: June 24, 2007, 07:34:44 PM »

Because there aren't adulters or "fornicators right's groups" that are demanding government approval of their sexual fetishes.  We may not punish adultery in criminal courts, but the punishments for it handed out by family courts can be a heck of a lot worse than a little jail time.  Not to mention that there is a significantly lower standard of evidence in a family court than in a criminal courtroom.  Fornicators don't have lobbies dedicated to making the state recongize their lifestyle.  For example, no one made a peep when Washington state stuck "common law marriage" in the rubbish bin and it's hardly a fortress of fundievangelicalism.
Personally, I can't wait until the S&M subculture gets an advocate lobby going and wants the state to assign the same legal weight to bondage guild concil decisions as court orders.
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« Reply #113 on: June 24, 2007, 07:54:23 PM »

Because there aren't adulters or "fornicators right's groups" that are demanding government approval of their sexual fetishes.

We don't have 'people with two arms and two legs rights groups' either...what's the point? 95% of the population has premarital sex, society already approves of this activity (or at least 95% of society has demonstrated by their actions that they approve of it, of those 95% who feign not to, they're hypocrites).

Quote
We may not punish adultery in criminal courts, but the punishments for it handed out by family courts can be a heck of a lot worse than a little jail time.  Not to mention that there is a significantly lower standard of evidence in a family court than in a criminal courtroom.

Only in backwards states dominated by evangelical protestants where it's still acceptable to marry your first cousin. Here in California (as in much of the west) we have community property, in case of divorce everyone gets half of all community property, it's a simple matter of civil (as opposed to common) law.
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« Reply #114 on: June 24, 2007, 09:57:19 PM »

Because there aren't adulters or "fornicators right's groups" that are demanding government approval of their sexual fetishes.  We may not punish adultery in criminal courts, but the punishments for it handed out by family courts can be a heck of a lot worse than a little jail time.  Not to mention that there is a significantly lower standard of evidence in a family court than in a criminal courtroom.  Fornicators don't have lobbies dedicated to making the state recongize their lifestyle.  For example, no one made a peep when Washington state stuck "common law marriage" in the rubbish bin and it's hardly a fortress of fundievangelicalism.
Personally, I can't wait until the S&M subculture gets an advocate lobby going and wants the state to assign the same legal weight to bondage guild concil decisions as court orders.
Why can't this answer be a possibility in the poll?  None of the rest of the options come even close to expressing my belief.  Not I think a serious attempt was being made to represent the people who have made negative statements about homosexual acts.
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« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2007, 10:10:32 PM »

Why can't this answer be a possibility in the poll?  None of the rest of the options come even close to expressing my belief.  Not I think a serious attempt was being made to represent the people who have made negative statements about homosexual acts.

Because the purpose of the poll was more to analyze the psychology of such people than to give them yet another soap box.
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« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2007, 10:28:53 PM »

Because the purpose of the poll was more to analyze the psychology of such people than to give them yet another soap box.
I see.  The purpose wasn't really to understand why people are making these posts, it was to make fun of them.
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« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2007, 10:54:22 PM »

I see.  The purpose wasn't really to understand why people are making these posts, it was to make fun of them.

Well, yes.
I would have thought that was obvious.
There are over twenty other threads where these people can stand on their soap boxes (and do so). But before they do, one would hope that they would heed cleveland's advice given on one of those threads.
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« Reply #118 on: June 25, 2007, 02:30:29 AM »

Reminds me of a remark once made to me by a ROCOR bishop in Germany who was talking about some groups who seemed to be attracted to the Orthodox Church who were of this category and he wondered why the Church was attracting such people. 
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« Reply #119 on: June 25, 2007, 02:35:26 AM »

Well, yes.
I would have thought that was obvious.
Ah, well, that seems a very Christian thing to do. Can't shut 'em up? Make fun of 'em!

Speaking for myself only here, I usually speak out against the so-called homosexual agenda forcing their minority beliefs on the entire galaxy. But as I said before, the message of the Orthodox Church needs to be heard. And though condemning homosexuality is part of that message, loving the homosexual is the impedus for condemning it, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." But that's all of us isn't it? We're all sinners who need love, not just from the Church, but from one another. You can't get someone to drink clean water when they've drank dirty water all their life until you show them clean water. But we must show them with love. That means that we love them, but at the same time that love means we also have a responsibility in helping them deal with their faults (and we all have faults).

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« Reply #120 on: June 25, 2007, 02:40:28 AM »

Ah, well, that seems a very Christian thing to do. Can't shut 'em up? Make fun of 'em!

Well, when the only sane choices are to laugh or cry, sometimes it's better we choose the former.
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« Reply #121 on: June 25, 2007, 05:35:37 AM »

Money, for example, was Jesus' number-one most preached-about topic, yet many of our churches fail to preach about the proper uses of money, except to encourage tithing. If Christians were as concerned about money as they were about homosexuality, we could put a significant dent in the fiscal irresponsibility this country is heavily involved in. And that's just one example. I for one would love to see on this board people tackle some really tough moral issues. I think I'll bring some up myself, as well.

And I would be genuinely interested in such a topic !  I encourage you to start a thread on it.
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« Reply #122 on: June 25, 2007, 05:39:48 AM »

some groups who seemed to be attracted to the Orthodox Church who were of this category
You mean, sinners?
Sinners wanting to enter the Orthodox Church? Surely notCheesy

we also have a responsibility in helping them deal with their faults (and we all have faults).
When there are over twenty threads on this forum about the serious fault of avarice, I might take this a bit more seriously. And I also might take it seriously when people who want to do so show me their letters from their Bishops appointing them as Spiritual Fathers. A Father once wrote that fornicators will be shown more mercy on the Day of Judgement than the avarous, because the former were overcome by a powerful passion while the latter gave in to mere money. Yet I don't see twenty two threads on this forum about avarice. At any rate, when an Orthodox Christian examines faults, they should be using a mirror, not a telescope.

Well, when the only sane choices are to laugh or cry, sometimes it's better we choose the former.
And at least laughter has the power to minimise the harm done.

And finally, instead of everyone just spouting what they think is the teaching of the Church on the matter, and thereby leaving themselves open to such ridicule, perhaps they would do well to look at what the Church has actually said, and note especially the paragraph in this statement which says:
Quote
"....we must stress that persons with a homosexual orientation are to be cared for with the same mercy and love that is bestowed by our Lord Jesus Christ upon all of humanity. All persons are called by God to grow spiritually and morally toward holiness."
Somehow, I don't think what the SCOBA Bishops mean by this is that we should be caustic, ascerbic and rude to posters on this forum who have homosexual orientation, or patronizing them by telling them that "its a bitter pill, take it or leave it" when our same-sex attracted posters have probably seen more spiritual struggle and are being tried like gold in a fire tremendously more painful and purifying than these online wannabe "spiritual fathers". So yes, I think the riddicule is warranted, and sometimes is the only way to get some people off their high horse before they trample on others, thinking they are going about "God's work".

MODERATION.
The topic of this thread is the issue of homosexuality being over-discussed on Orthodox Forums. It is NOT a thread about the Church's position on homosexuality (which we all know anyway). As pointed out, there are over 20 other threads on the subject of homosexuality, and if people insist on getting on their soap boxes to discuss homosexuality itself, they should pick one of the 20 other threads. Since there are over 20 other threads to pick from for people to tell us what we already know (ie that homosexual acts are a sin) any off topic post in this thread will simply be discarded.
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« Reply #123 on: June 25, 2007, 05:34:03 PM »

Somehow, I don't think what the SCOBA Bishops mean by this is that we should be caustic, ascerbic and rude to posters on this forum who have homosexual orientation, or patronizing them by telling them that "its a bitter pill, take it or leave it" when our same-sex attracted posters have probably seen more spiritual struggle and are being tried like gold in a fire tremendously more painful and purifying than these online wannabe "spiritual fathers".

Hear, hear! They have.
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« Reply #124 on: June 25, 2007, 06:09:39 PM »

I am very sorry if I sounded in any way "patronizing" in that thread in the "Faith Issues" when I replied to Zebu and said something like, "I, too, had my share of struggle with my "natural" wanton sexuality, even though I am not homosexual and happily married to a woman." It's really difficult to talk about these things on Internet forums - there really is a huge risk of inadvertently sounding "moralistic."


MODERATION.
Off Topic text removed.
The topic of this thread is the issue of homosexuality being over-discussed on Orthodox Forums. It is NOT a thread about the Church's position on homosexuality (which we all know anyway). As pointed out, there are over 20 other threads on the subject of homosexuality, and if people insist on getting on their soap boxes to discuss homosexuality itself, they should pick one of the 20 other threads. Since there are over 20 other threads to pick from for people to tell us what we already know (ie that homosexual acts are a sin) any off topic post in this thread will simply be discarded.
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« Reply #125 on: June 26, 2007, 10:49:52 AM »

Ah, well, that seems a very Christian thing to do. Can't shut 'em up? Make fun of 'em!

Speaking for myself only here, I usually speak out against the so-called homosexual agenda forcing their minority beliefs on the entire galaxy. But as I said before, the message of the Orthodox Church needs to be heard. And though condemning homosexuality is part of that message, loving the homosexual is the impedus for condemning it, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." But that's all of us isn't it? We're all sinners who need love, not just from the Church, but from one another. You can't get someone to drink clean water when they've drank dirty water all their life until you show them clean water. But we must show them with love. That means that we love them, but at the same time that love means we also have a responsibility in helping them deal with their faults (and we all have faults).



On the Orthodox forums I have posted to the reason homosexuality comes up often usually has to do with changes in laws and education promoted by the homosexual lobby in the United States.

So while I never have hated homosexuals and have been friends with them in the past. I do hate the homosexual political agenda in the state of California because it effects my children. The eighth grade sex ed curriculum advocates that children explore their sexual identity by experimenting. Even the secular parents were up in arms about these recent changes to the curriculum. Love the sinner, hate the sin and the political agenda promoting and celebrating  the sin through public education.
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« Reply #126 on: June 26, 2007, 11:08:24 AM »

^ Tie this post in to the topic of "Homosexuality on Orthodox Forums" or it's going bye-byes.

EDIT: Thanks Tamara for making the adjustments.
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« Reply #127 on: June 27, 2007, 01:02:23 PM »

this topic keeps coming up because no one really does anything.  Some spout off tolerance agenda propaganda and call themselves more enlightened, then they proceed to mock anyone that has the gonadal fortitude to believe differently.

Orthodoxy might say homosexual acts are wrong, but most Orthodox I have met in my 4 years converted are of the same liberal thinking that condones and endorses the homosexual agenda.  Many cradle (it seems) are in no hurry to take a stand against anything, even if canon law is quite specific.  Even if their children are being inundated with graphic homosexualized education from the age of 6, they sit and ignore the future ramifications. wouldn't want to cause any politically incorrect waves would we?

It keeps coming up because any type of sexual sin is usually not limited to one person.  Homosexual sin is hardly ever monogamous or confined to respectful levels of privacy. It's gratuitously exploited for all the world to see, rammed into young minds constantly, beaten over our heads, and harming our youth.    Homosexuals are just as likely to be involved in a group supporting forcing changes on all of the rest of us, as homeschoolers  are to be involved in a co op for high school math.  Which one is more harmful?
sometimes the arrogance and mockery on here frosts my glutes.  Most of it comes from students sitting in their dorms or their parents houses on their parents nickel, instead of those actually commited to the raising of the next generation.  The former knows little actual truth from experience and have yet to see the front lines, the latter are overwhelmingly engaged in the battle and sick of the whining.
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« Reply #128 on: June 27, 2007, 01:20:06 PM »

this topic keeps coming up because no one really does anything.  Some spout off tolerance agenda propaganda and call themselves more enlightened, then they proceed to mock anyone that has the gonadal fortitude to believe differently.

Orthodoxy might say homosexual acts are wrong, but most Orthodox I have met in my 4 years converted are of the same liberal thinking that condones and endorses the homosexual agenda.  Many cradle (it seems) are in no hurry to take a stand against anything, even if canon law is quite specific.  Even if their children are being inundated with graphic homosexualized education from the age of 6, they sit and ignore the future ramifications. wouldn't want to cause any politically incorrect waves would we?

It keeps coming up because any type of sexual sin is usually not limited to one person.  Homosexual sin is hardly ever monogamous or confined to respectful levels of privacy. It's gratuitously exploited for all the world to see, rammed into young minds constantly, beaten over our heads, and harming our youth.    Homosexuals are just as likely to be involved in a group supporting forcing changes on all of the rest of us, as homeschoolers  are to be involved in a co op for high school math.  Which one is more harmful?
sometimes the arrogance and mockery on here frosts my glutes.  Most of it comes from students sitting in their dorms or their parents houses on their parents nickel, instead of those actually commited to the raising of the next generation.  The former knows little actual truth from experience and have yet to see the front lines, the latter are overwhelmingly engaged in the battle and sick of the whining.

So in other words, if you're not homeschooling half a dozen kids, you don't have anything worthwhile to say. Roll Eyes

Having been in high school and junior high and all not terribly long ago, I don't recall anything that would remotely resemble some sort of "homosexual educational agenda."  Even in college, the only time I encountered anything close to that was the small gay-rights group on campus when they sponsored coming out day and most people just thought that was silly.
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« Reply #129 on: June 27, 2007, 01:52:33 PM »

So in other words, if you're not homeschooling half a dozen kids, you don't have anything worthwhile to say. Roll Eyes

Having been in high school and junior high and all not terribly long ago, I don't recall anything that would remotely resemble some sort of "homosexual educational agenda."  Even in college, the only time I encountered anything close to that was the small gay-rights group on campus when they sponsored coming out day and most people just thought that was silly.

The whining we see in calligraphqueen's posts is typical of the conspiracy theorists of the evangelical protestant fundamentalists. I never heard anything even remotely advocating homosexuality in either high school or college, safe for one philosophy professor who was openly gay...go figure...and even then it was hardly a pressing agenda, his complaints essentially amounted to 'mind your own business'.

These scare tactics are simply off the wall conspiracy theories, my advice is stop reading 'Focus on the Family' propaganda literature and protect your kids from what they really need protected from, this extremist fundamentalist backwards counterculture movement you seem to be involved in; heaven forbid we be normal members of society rather than hippie holdovers. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #130 on: June 27, 2007, 02:13:23 PM »

These scare tactics are simply off the wall conspiracy theories, my advice is stop reading 'Focus on the Family' propaganda literature and protect your kids from what they really need protected from, this extremist fundamentalist backwards counterculture movement you seem to be involved in; heaven forbid we be normal members of society rather than hippie holdovers. Roll Eyes

Have you been reading the latest issue of First Things or the book it recently reviewed, Preston Shires's Hippies of the Religious Right?

http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=5918
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« Reply #131 on: June 27, 2007, 04:15:20 PM »

not that i am at all shocked at the response, nor the rude comment about how many children I might be raising.  typical, arrogant.  If you are still in school then you haven't stepped out into reality yet, you aren't the ones engaged in the battle.  (whatever that battle might be for) Years ago we hosted Mel White's church within our own.  As a result I had to walk my children through that other guy's hostile hating church protesting our efforts, and got my share of insults and barbs simply for attending church with *gasp* gays!!  oh wait, barbs here too?  I tell you, these days if you take a stand for anything, there will always be some young goof with no experience to tell you you are wrong. He will likely call himself some sort of "christian" too.
 You assumed I was just speaking from some right wing conspiracy handbook, but the reality is my experience is far more graphic.
I come from a family history of horrid sexual abuse, then I have survived sexual abuse myself, from a hetero perv, and I am raising one child that has survived it from a homo perv. See, your assumption was wrong.   if you must know, those are the things that have shaped my thinking, Focus on the Family wasn't capable of making a dent in that.
 Sexual sin, of any kind (as i pointed out) is extremely harmful to the most vulnerable among us.  Blasting me, calling me a fundie, or telling us you didn't have any sex ed classes is irrelevant.  I didn't care for the groups you mentioned before I converted, I certainly have no idea what they are printing now.  I deal with the scars and aftershocks of sexual sin on the front lines, so yes, I do have a bit less naivete that a college student who probably has yet to make any real dent in the world.  most of us graduate and get taken down a few notches from those ivory towers, before we are of any use to anyone. You should never assume that simply because your education is more recent, then your views are more relevant. In fact, it's a good idea never to lead off with assumptions at all.
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« Reply #132 on: June 27, 2007, 04:33:10 PM »

Thank you for underscoring my point that you apparently think the only opinions and experiences worth hearing are those that exactly mirror your own.  Pointing out all the things that you have been through and are doing is a really flimsy rationale for dismissing everyone else's comments; however, if it serves to make you feel good about yourself, then go for it.  In the meantime, don't go claiming there's some sort of mass homosexual indoctrination in public schools when those of us who were recently there never saw any of it. 
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« Reply #133 on: June 27, 2007, 04:33:28 PM »

The whining we see in calligraphqueen's posts is typical of the conspiracy theorists of the evangelical protestant fundamentalists. I never heard anything even remotely advocating homosexuality in either high school or college, safe for one philosophy professor who was openly gay...go figure...and even then it was hardly a pressing agenda, his complaints essentially amounted to 'mind your own business'.

These scare tactics are simply off the wall conspiracy theories, my advice is stop reading 'Focus on the Family' propaganda literature and protect your kids from what they really need protected from, this extremist fundamentalist backwards counterculture movement you seem to be involved in; heaven forbid we be normal members of society rather than hippie holdovers. Roll Eyes

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I don't read 'Focus on the Family' material. I am not a right-wing Republican. In fact, I am not even a Republican. I was raised to love everyone regardless of who they are or what they believe. One of the groomsman in our wedding party was gay. I dated a man who eventually admitted to being gay and continued to be his friend even though he knew I didn't agree with his lifestyle. When I was working as a graphic designer in the bay area I worked well with gay and lesbian designers, photographers, and illustrators so I am not ignorant of their lifestyle and beliefs.

But I was deeply upset when my son, who was in 5th grade at the time, came home and told me that his middle school had shown him a movie advocating the gay lifestyle and gay families as normal. I was especially angry with the covertness used to bring the program to the school by not informing the parents it would happen or give parents the ability to have their child opt out of the program. The lesbian PTA president, along with members of the teaching staff, who are gay, decided that it was in the best interest of the children to order this program for our school but not inform the parents. I find that attitude very arrogant but it is what I have come to label liberal fascism. The idea that a self-anointed elite group of people decide they know what's best for my child even if I as the parent disagree. This attitude has manifested itself in many other forms in the school district my children belong to and it finds its roots in the California Education system. I call it the education system as parent. Anyway, they were able to get the prinicipal and other teachers to buy into it. I guess I wasn't the only parent to call the principal's office to demand to see what the program entailed. The principal quickly curtailed the program because they rely on parent donation dollars to support school programs. He let it be known they would end the program for that year and they would have a parent orientation in the fall so we could see the program first. It never happened.

But what did change was the sex ed program for the 8th graders. They now teach the children in our school it is okay to experiment sexually with people of different genders to find out what your sexual identity is. This program is new so that is why you, being a single male without children, have no clue as to what is really happening in sexual education in California today.
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« Reply #134 on: June 27, 2007, 05:31:07 PM »

Contrary to three warnings I have issued on this thread, it has devolved again by going off topic. You people just can't help yourselves can you? Either use one of the other 20 existing threads on homosexuality or start a new one.
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If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Tags: homosexuality 
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