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Poll
Question: Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 19 (26.8%)
Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to fight - 10 (14.1%)
Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates - 7 (9.9%)
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity - 20 (28.2%)
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 15 (21.1%)
Total Voters: 71

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Author Topic: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread  (Read 71729 times) Average Rating: 0
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GiC
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« Reply #810 on: November 10, 2009, 03:39:31 PM »

...objectively investigate the matter for themselves and not 'rely' on any 'advice'. As someone who has taken it upon himself to question all advice that was given and who, as a result, changed their views by 180 degrees, I suspect that this approach would lead to a more tolerant outlook; but maybe that was just me. If you honestly question all your preconceived notions, are able to step back and approach this issue from a fresh new objective perspective fully informed by the knowledge of our day, and still arrive at the same conclusions, I would be much more accepting of your position; but as far as I can tell, no one here has actually done that.

In the end, all I'm asking you to do is to put in the effort required to think for yourself and not allow other people to do your thinking for you; honestly, is that an unreasonable request?

What's unreasonable, IMHO, is for you to assume that people who disagree with you have not thought for themselves or investigated the issue.

Of course, you will have to take my word that I have done all that you have suggested, and I have indeed changed my thinking 180 degrees. Oddly enough, I came to a totally different conclusion, opposite to what you appear to consider enlightened, and unprejudiced.

I don't assume that based on a disagreement, I assume that based on the poor quality of the arguments. I disagree with people all the time, especially on such issues as economics and foreign policy, without assuming for a second that they haven't thought through the issues for themselves. But when your argument is 'this is what I've been told to think', I'm probably not going to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I've had good in depth arguments about economics with well versed and well studied Marxists, I disagree with them, but can appreciate their well developed philosophical and economic positions. I doubt I could have the same quality of conversation with one who's simply rehashing the Soviet party line.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 03:41:21 PM by GiC » Logged

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« Reply #811 on: November 10, 2009, 03:52:24 PM »

I am having a hard time understanding the point about how the changes in attitude about Slavery is like how attitudes may change about Homosexuality.

I think we are mixing up social and cultural attitudes and prejudices with the World View of the Church.

No, we're not mixing up anything. Just saying that your personal opinion about what your church believes in this matter IS prejudice. It's a simple matter of truth, you might want to justify this prejudice by saying that god told you it was ok...but it's still prejudice.

Say what?

I am pretty darn certain that the Orthodox Church does not allow marriage between same sex couples. I am also equally certain the Mariage is pretty important to them.

FYI, they also have a good idea about what is spiritually beneficial for people by long years of practice. It's like trusting a Mathematics Professor with long years of experience and numerous achievements and awards versus an undergraduate math major.. The new student may have some deep insights but in most matters , I will go with experience.

You'd be a fool to 'trust' either the undergrad or the professor, no matter how distinguished. The validity of a mathematical theorem is based solely on the validity of the proof, the distinction of the person presenting it is utterly irrelevant and unworthy of consideration.

Quote
One thing I have learned about the Orthodox Church is that they are eminently reasonable.


Picking a choosing who you will side with or depend upon can be characterized as "Prejudice". I chose this over that. But it has a pejorative implication. Yes, I chose the Church and you don't. We are prejudiced both for and against something when we decide who to side with. So what?

Prejudice is not 'chos[ing] this over that', prejudice is judging an issue based on preconceived ideas and failing to consider all the facts. The mere fact that the church's position was formed without the understanding of modern biology and psychology implies that it is, necessarily, prejudiced.

okay.. a History Professor then....[[sigh]]

Okay..I think you are correct..Then this is not a case of prejudice. It is merely relying on the advice of the Church based on the good results they have achieved in forming Saints. Biology has nothing at all to do with the matter because the Church already accepts the fact of same sex attraction. This is not news Smiley
They promote marriage for various reasons. They are unlikely to stop promoting marriage, the biology of same sex attraction is not relevant to that decision..

I don't think GiC's point was the quibble you seem to think. My impression was that you saw the Church's authority as being of a different kind from the passing fads and new interpretations you get in other kinds of study and learning. One is meant to question one's teachers, no matter what they teach: in your view, if I understand correctly, the point is that one is not meant to question the authority of the Church.

Thank you...at least someone got my point. Wink What makes the position prejudice is the methodology used to arrive at the conclusion, the conclusion itself may be considered bigoted or derogatory, but prejudice refers more to methodology. All I'm asking here is that someone objectively investigate the matter for themselves and not 'rely' on any 'advice'. As someone who has taken it upon himself to question all advice that was given and who, as a result, changed their views by 180 degrees, I suspect that this approach would lead to a more tolerant outlook; but maybe that was just me. If you honestly question all your preconceived notions, are able to step back and approach this issue from a fresh new objective perspective fully informed by the knowledge of our day, and still arrive at the same conclusions, I would be much more accepting of your position; but as far as I can tell, no one here has actually done that.

In the end, all I'm asking you to do is to put in the effort required to think for yourself and not allow other people to do your thinking for you; honestly, is that an unreasonable request?

So... you believe that I don't understand the "knowledge of the day" and therefore would change my idea's about Gay Marriage if I did ?.. I just want to make certain I am hearing you correctly.

I think that is a pretty nervy thing to say..

Not at all, what I'm saying is that based on your posts here, it doesn't seem that you have honestly challenged your preconceived notions and this observation is not so much based on your conclusions as it is on your arguments. To do this, one honestly has to, at one point, find themselves honestly not knowing what the right answer is...which is never an easy place to be.

That's what I thought you said... Excuse me while I gasp..

My goodness.. That is incredibly condescending not to mention arrogant.. so much so I am not really angry..  You have have crossed the line into shear silliness.. I forgive and God forgives.

I will have you know:

The first Gay rights march I went on was at the Republican Convention in 1972 in Miami Beach ( if you are old enough to recall, that is the one where Agnew had to land his helicopter into a cloud of tear Gas)... Back then, marching in a Gay Rights Protest  could easily result in a beating from the cops. Have you ever put your neck on the line for Gay Rights?

My only brother is Gay and living with his Partner ( I like the Partner better than my brother..don't tell him). My female cousin who lived with us growing up ( due to the poverty of her parents) is a lesbian. My  aunt was in a lesbian relationship for 20 plus years until she decided not to be Lesbian anymore ( sorry if that hurts the standard narrative).

I am a Liberal Democrat and have held minor elective office. I was the Student President of my University and well funded the various Gay groups on campus. I was known as a prominent anti- Vietnam War activist. After College, I was a full time labor organizer for the very Gay friendly Socialist Workers Party for several years.

I am hardly an ill informed right winger.    

It's a stronger argument to stick to the issues at hand and not try to characterize who or what other people are who don't agree with you.. It's really Bush-League.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 03:53:36 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #812 on: November 10, 2009, 03:57:19 PM »

...objectively investigate the matter for themselves and not 'rely' on any 'advice'. As someone who has taken it upon himself to question all advice that was given and who, as a result, changed their views by 180 degrees, I suspect that this approach would lead to a more tolerant outlook; but maybe that was just me. If you honestly question all your preconceived notions, are able to step back and approach this issue from a fresh new objective perspective fully informed by the knowledge of our day, and still arrive at the same conclusions, I would be much more accepting of your position; but as far as I can tell, no one here has actually done that.

In the end, all I'm asking you to do is to put in the effort required to think for yourself and not allow other people to do your thinking for you; honestly, is that an unreasonable request?

What's unreasonable, IMHO, is for you to assume that people who disagree with you have not thought for themselves or investigated the issue.

Of course, you will have to take my word that I have done all that you have suggested, and I have indeed changed my thinking 180 degrees. Oddly enough, I came to a totally different conclusion, opposite to what you appear to consider enlightened, and unprejudiced.

Ditto
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« Reply #813 on: November 10, 2009, 04:28:35 PM »

I am having a hard time understanding the point about how the changes in attitude about Slavery is like how attitudes may change about Homosexuality.

I think we are mixing up social and cultural attitudes and prejudices with the World View of the Church.

No, we're not mixing up anything. Just saying that your personal opinion about what your church believes in this matter IS prejudice. It's a simple matter of truth, you might want to justify this prejudice by saying that god told you it was ok...but it's still prejudice.

Say what?

I am pretty darn certain that the Orthodox Church does not allow marriage between same sex couples. I am also equally certain the Mariage is pretty important to them.

FYI, they also have a good idea about what is spiritually beneficial for people by long years of practice. It's like trusting a Mathematics Professor with long years of experience and numerous achievements and awards versus an undergraduate math major.. The new student may have some deep insights but in most matters , I will go with experience.

You'd be a fool to 'trust' either the undergrad or the professor, no matter how distinguished. The validity of a mathematical theorem is based solely on the validity of the proof, the distinction of the person presenting it is utterly irrelevant and unworthy of consideration.

Quote
One thing I have learned about the Orthodox Church is that they are eminently reasonable.


Picking a choosing who you will side with or depend upon can be characterized as "Prejudice". I chose this over that. But it has a pejorative implication. Yes, I chose the Church and you don't. We are prejudiced both for and against something when we decide who to side with. So what?

Prejudice is not 'chos[ing] this over that', prejudice is judging an issue based on preconceived ideas and failing to consider all the facts. The mere fact that the church's position was formed without the understanding of modern biology and psychology implies that it is, necessarily, prejudiced.

okay.. a History Professor then....[[sigh]]

Okay..I think you are correct..Then this is not a case of prejudice. It is merely relying on the advice of the Church based on the good results they have achieved in forming Saints. Biology has nothing at all to do with the matter because the Church already accepts the fact of same sex attraction. This is not news Smiley
They promote marriage for various reasons. They are unlikely to stop promoting marriage, the biology of same sex attraction is not relevant to that decision..

I don't think GiC's point was the quibble you seem to think. My impression was that you saw the Church's authority as being of a different kind from the passing fads and new interpretations you get in other kinds of study and learning. One is meant to question one's teachers, no matter what they teach: in your view, if I understand correctly, the point is that one is not meant to question the authority of the Church.

Really?.. I cant imagine how you drew that conclusion from anything I have said.

I did say that it is wise to draw on the Church based on it's long experience and also the good results it has achieved producing Saints.... I don't think I got anywhere close to implying that the Church can't be questioned.

Ok, sorry, misunderstood. Drawing on what witega says below (I've not got through all the posts yet, btw), I guess what I mean is, if my teacher gave me an answer I didn't like, I'd question it. In fact, my PhD is mainly about proving one of my teachers wrong - not because I want to challenge his authority, but because I honestly disagree, and my opinion (if I can argue it well enough) is as good as his. Not so, I think, with the Church. Part of the analogy problem is that the Church (or rather, Tradition) is made up of many voices, and a teacher vs. pupil situation is one-on-one.
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« Reply #814 on: November 10, 2009, 04:33:04 PM »

I am having a hard time understanding the point about how the changes in attitude about Slavery is like how attitudes may change about Homosexuality.

I think we are mixing up social and cultural attitudes and prejudices with the World View of the Church.

No, we're not mixing up anything. Just saying that your personal opinion about what your church believes in this matter IS prejudice. It's a simple matter of truth, you might want to justify this prejudice by saying that god told you it was ok...but it's still prejudice.

Say what?

I am pretty darn certain that the Orthodox Church does not allow marriage between same sex couples. I am also equally certain the Mariage is pretty important to them.

FYI, they also have a good idea about what is spiritually beneficial for people by long years of practice. It's like trusting a Mathematics Professor with long years of experience and numerous achievements and awards versus an undergraduate math major.. The new student may have some deep insights but in most matters , I will go with experience.

You'd be a fool to 'trust' either the undergrad or the professor, no matter how distinguished. The validity of a mathematical theorem is based solely on the validity of the proof, the distinction of the person presenting it is utterly irrelevant and unworthy of consideration.

Quote
One thing I have learned about the Orthodox Church is that they are eminently reasonable.


Picking a choosing who you will side with or depend upon can be characterized as "Prejudice". I chose this over that. But it has a pejorative implication. Yes, I chose the Church and you don't. We are prejudiced both for and against something when we decide who to side with. So what?

Prejudice is not 'chos[ing] this over that', prejudice is judging an issue based on preconceived ideas and failing to consider all the facts. The mere fact that the church's position was formed without the understanding of modern biology and psychology implies that it is, necessarily, prejudiced.

okay.. a History Professor then....[[sigh]]

Okay..I think you are correct..Then this is not a case of prejudice. It is merely relying on the advice of the Church based on the good results they have achieved in forming Saints. Biology has nothing at all to do with the matter because the Church already accepts the fact of same sex attraction. This is not news Smiley
They promote marriage for various reasons. They are unlikely to stop promoting marriage, the biology of same sex attraction is not relevant to that decision..

I don't think GiC's point was the quibble you seem to think. My impression was that you saw the Church's authority as being of a different kind from the passing fads and new interpretations you get in other kinds of study and learning. One is meant to question one's teachers, no matter what they teach: in your view, if I understand correctly, the point is that one is not meant to question the authority of the Church.

Really?.. I cant imagine how you drew that conclusion from anything I have said.

I did say that it is wise to draw on the Church based on it's long experience and also the good results it has achieved producing Saints.... I don't think I got anywhere close to implying that the Church can't be questioned.

Ok, sorry, misunderstood. Drawing on what witega says below (I've not got through all the posts yet, btw), I guess what I mean is, if my teacher gave me an answer I didn't like, I'd question it. In fact, my PhD is mainly about proving one of my teachers wrong - not because I want to challenge his authority, but because I honestly disagree, and my opinion (if I can argue it well enough) is as good as his. Not so, I think, with the Church. Part of the analogy problem is that the Church (or rather, Tradition) is made up of many voices, and a teacher vs. pupil situation is one-on-one.

That is what I have done. I towed the Liberal-Socialist Party Line about Gay rights until I started to question it seriously and then came up with a different position than the one I had rather automatically held for most of my life..Go figure.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 04:36:08 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

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« Reply #815 on: November 10, 2009, 04:58:38 PM »

I am having a hard time understanding the point about how the changes in attitude about Slavery is like how attitudes may change about Homosexuality.

I think we are mixing up social and cultural attitudes and prejudices with the World View of the Church.

No, we're not mixing up anything. Just saying that your personal opinion about what your church believes in this matter IS prejudice. It's a simple matter of truth, you might want to justify this prejudice by saying that god told you it was ok...but it's still prejudice.

Say what?

I am pretty darn certain that the Orthodox Church does not allow marriage between same sex couples. I am also equally certain the Mariage is pretty important to them.

FYI, they also have a good idea about what is spiritually beneficial for people by long years of practice. It's like trusting a Mathematics Professor with long years of experience and numerous achievements and awards versus an undergraduate math major.. The new student may have some deep insights but in most matters , I will go with experience.

You'd be a fool to 'trust' either the undergrad or the professor, no matter how distinguished. The validity of a mathematical theorem is based solely on the validity of the proof, the distinction of the person presenting it is utterly irrelevant and unworthy of consideration.

Quote
One thing I have learned about the Orthodox Church is that they are eminently reasonable.


Picking a choosing who you will side with or depend upon can be characterized as "Prejudice". I chose this over that. But it has a pejorative implication. Yes, I chose the Church and you don't. We are prejudiced both for and against something when we decide who to side with. So what?

Prejudice is not 'chos[ing] this over that', prejudice is judging an issue based on preconceived ideas and failing to consider all the facts. The mere fact that the church's position was formed without the understanding of modern biology and psychology implies that it is, necessarily, prejudiced.

okay.. a History Professor then....[[sigh]]

Okay..I think you are correct..Then this is not a case of prejudice. It is merely relying on the advice of the Church based on the good results they have achieved in forming Saints. Biology has nothing at all to do with the matter because the Church already accepts the fact of same sex attraction. This is not news Smiley
They promote marriage for various reasons. They are unlikely to stop promoting marriage, the biology of same sex attraction is not relevant to that decision..

I don't think GiC's point was the quibble you seem to think. My impression was that you saw the Church's authority as being of a different kind from the passing fads and new interpretations you get in other kinds of study and learning. One is meant to question one's teachers, no matter what they teach: in your view, if I understand correctly, the point is that one is not meant to question the authority of the Church.

Thank you...at least someone got my point. Wink What makes the position prejudice is the methodology used to arrive at the conclusion, the conclusion itself may be considered bigoted or derogatory, but prejudice refers more to methodology. All I'm asking here is that someone objectively investigate the matter for themselves and not 'rely' on any 'advice'. As someone who has taken it upon himself to question all advice that was given and who, as a result, changed their views by 180 degrees, I suspect that this approach would lead to a more tolerant outlook; but maybe that was just me. If you honestly question all your preconceived notions, are able to step back and approach this issue from a fresh new objective perspective fully informed by the knowledge of our day, and still arrive at the same conclusions, I would be much more accepting of your position; but as far as I can tell, no one here has actually done that.

In the end, all I'm asking you to do is to put in the effort required to think for yourself and not allow other people to do your thinking for you; honestly, is that an unreasonable request?

So... you believe that I don't understand the "knowledge of the day" and therefore would change my idea's about Gay Marriage if I did ?.. I just want to make certain I am hearing you correctly.

I think that is a pretty nervy thing to say..

Not at all, what I'm saying is that based on your posts here, it doesn't seem that you have honestly challenged your preconceived notions and this observation is not so much based on your conclusions as it is on your arguments. To do this, one honestly has to, at one point, find themselves honestly not knowing what the right answer is...which is never an easy place to be.

That's what I thought you said... Excuse me while I gasp..

My goodness.. That is incredibly condescending not to mention arrogant.. so much so I am not really angry..  You have have crossed the line into shear silliness.. I forgive and God forgives.

Come on man...you've been around long enough to know I'm nothing if not arrogant. Wink

Quote
I will have you know:

The first Gay rights march I went on was at the Republican Convention in 1972 in Miami Beach ( if you are old enough to recall, that is the one where Agnew had to land his helicopter into a cloud of tear Gas)... Back then, marching in a Gay Rights Protest  could easily result in a beating from the cops. Have you ever put your neck on the line for Gay Rights?

No...never went to a protest and seriously doubt I ever will. They are vulgar and devoid of intellect and reason, regardless of what side of the issue they fall on; I've never been one to trust the mob, though I will support without condition their right to assemble.

Quote
My only brother is Gay and living with his Partner ( I like the Partner better than my brother..don't tell him). My female cousin who lived with us growing up ( due to the poverty of her parents) is a lesbian. My  aunt was in a lesbian relationship for 20 plus years until she decided not to be Lesbian anymore ( sorry if that hurts the standard narrative).

Ah...I may have missed something in my initial analysis. But have no intent of going there. I'll stand by my paradigm as I originally presented it, a general observation relevant to the majority of this board.

Quote
I am a Liberal Democrat and have held minor elective office. I was the Student President of my University and well funded the various Gay groups on campus. I was known as a prominent anti- Vietnam War activist.
I am hardly an ill informed right winger.    

And I'm a Conservative Republican...what's your point? Regardless of your political affiliation, your arguments are unobjectionable and based on unrelated prejudices. Contrary to popular belief, these don't only come from the Republican party platform.

Quote
After College, I was a full time labor organizer for the very Gay friendly Socialist Workers Party for several years.

I should have known you were a pinko...is it really that hard to confine your oppression to the economic sphere?

Quote
It's a stronger argument to stick to the issues at hand and not try to characterize who or what other people are who don't agree with you.. It's really Bush-League.

Actually, I think your arguments is what prompted my criticism? But I'm not at all offended if my arguments are taken as propaganda, it's good to know that my years of reading Goebbels have not been in vain. Wink
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« Reply #816 on: November 10, 2009, 05:35:33 PM »

I am having a hard time understanding the point about how the changes in attitude about Slavery is like how attitudes may change about Homosexuality.

I think we are mixing up social and cultural attitudes and prejudices with the World View of the Church.

No, we're not mixing up anything. Just saying that your personal opinion about what your church believes in this matter IS prejudice. It's a simple matter of truth, you might want to justify this prejudice by saying that god told you it was ok...but it's still prejudice.

Say what?

I am pretty darn certain that the Orthodox Church does not allow marriage between same sex couples. I am also equally certain the Mariage is pretty important to them.

FYI, they also have a good idea about what is spiritually beneficial for people by long years of practice. It's like trusting a Mathematics Professor with long years of experience and numerous achievements and awards versus an undergraduate math major.. The new student may have some deep insights but in most matters , I will go with experience.

You'd be a fool to 'trust' either the undergrad or the professor, no matter how distinguished. The validity of a mathematical theorem is based solely on the validity of the proof, the distinction of the person presenting it is utterly irrelevant and unworthy of consideration.

Quote
One thing I have learned about the Orthodox Church is that they are eminently reasonable.


Picking a choosing who you will side with or depend upon can be characterized as "Prejudice". I chose this over that. But it has a pejorative implication. Yes, I chose the Church and you don't. We are prejudiced both for and against something when we decide who to side with. So what?

Prejudice is not 'chos[ing] this over that', prejudice is judging an issue based on preconceived ideas and failing to consider all the facts. The mere fact that the church's position was formed without the understanding of modern biology and psychology implies that it is, necessarily, prejudiced.

okay.. a History Professor then....[[sigh]]

Okay..I think you are correct..Then this is not a case of prejudice. It is merely relying on the advice of the Church based on the good results they have achieved in forming Saints. Biology has nothing at all to do with the matter because the Church already accepts the fact of same sex attraction. This is not news Smiley
They promote marriage for various reasons. They are unlikely to stop promoting marriage, the biology of same sex attraction is not relevant to that decision..

I don't think GiC's point was the quibble you seem to think. My impression was that you saw the Church's authority as being of a different kind from the passing fads and new interpretations you get in other kinds of study and learning. One is meant to question one's teachers, no matter what they teach: in your view, if I understand correctly, the point is that one is not meant to question the authority of the Church.

Really?.. I cant imagine how you drew that conclusion from anything I have said.

I did say that it is wise to draw on the Church based on it's long experience and also the good results it has achieved producing Saints.... I don't think I got anywhere close to implying that the Church can't be questioned.

Ok, sorry, misunderstood. Drawing on what witega says below (I've not got through all the posts yet, btw), I guess what I mean is, if my teacher gave me an answer I didn't like, I'd question it. In fact, my PhD is mainly about proving one of my teachers wrong - not because I want to challenge his authority, but because I honestly disagree, and my opinion (if I can argue it well enough) is as good as his. Not so, I think, with the Church. Part of the analogy problem is that the Church (or rather, Tradition) is made up of many voices, and a teacher vs. pupil situation is one-on-one.

That is what I have done. I towed the Liberal-Socialist Party Line about Gay rights until I started to question it seriously and then came up with a different position than the one I had rather automatically held for most of my life..Go figure.

Sure, I just meant to say that the teacher analogy wasn't perfect. I'm regretting saying it though, because I think GiC has looked at an inch offered and taken a mile. GiC: I do think for myself. So do plenty of socially conservative, politically conservative, religiously traditional people on this forum (not to mentions liberals of various descriptions).

Marc - to put this in context, as an Anglican I am striving to understand how the balance works between an individual and the Orthodox Church. Much of what I'm thinking isn't directly prompted by you (or anyone else here), but rather, it'll be related to various questions I've been wanting to ask 'Orthodox people', to see what explanations they can give. Basically, I came on here to learn more about my partner's religion, so my motive is often to seek answers from different Orthodox members and see where that leads me.

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« Reply #817 on: November 10, 2009, 05:51:40 PM »

Anything can be questioned--including the authority of the Church or God Himself. But the critical point is what one does when one doesn't like the answers received, on what grounds one can reject answers.

I'm pretty much staying out of this thread for a variety of reasons.....however, I can't let the above statement go without a comment.

We may NOT question the authority of God.  Who are we to question God?  Who are we to even think we may understand why He does what He does, or says what He says?

How can the created question the authority of the Creator?

This hearkens back to the thread "Does God need to be defended?".  No, He probably doesn't and it doesn't phase Him in the least what people say.  He's not weaker or stronger because of the words of humans.... yet, I feel the need to defend Him.

Not for His sake, but, for our sakes.  We only do injury to ourselves if we question God's motives.

Excuse the interruption ...now, please continue with your bickering.

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« Reply #818 on: November 10, 2009, 05:54:41 PM »

Anything can be questioned--including the authority of the Church or God Himself. But the critical point is what one does when one doesn't like the answers received, on what grounds one can reject answers.

I'm pretty much staying out of this thread for a variety of reasons.....however, I can't let the above statement go without a comment.

We may NOT question the authority of God.  Who are we to question God?  Who are we to even think we may understand why He does what He does, or says what He says?

How can the created question the authority of the Creator?

This hearkens back to the thread "Does God need to be defended?".  No, He probably doesn't and it doesn't phase Him in the least what people say.  He's not weaker or stronger because of the words of humans.... yet, I feel the need to defend Him.

Not for His sake, but, for our sakes.  We only do injury to ourselves if we question God's motives.

Excuse the interruption ...now, please continue with your bickering.

And if such a god exists, how do you know he wouldn't want his authority questioned? Why would an omniscient entity want mere blind obedience? In the work towards developing artificial life the holy grail is an intelligence that questions the authority of its creator, true self-determination...
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« Reply #819 on: November 10, 2009, 05:56:49 PM »

Quote
We may NOT question the authority of God.

I don't think this is off topic, I think it actually is a factor in this thread, so I'm glad you made the issue more explicit. So, a few questions. First, may we question the claims that people make about God? Second, may we question the claims that people say God makes? And third, may we question the activity that people attribute to God? Or does "God said it" and "God did it" end the conversation?
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« Reply #820 on: November 10, 2009, 05:59:34 PM »

We may NOT question the authority of God.  Who are we to question God?  Who are we to even think we may understand why He does what He does, or says what He says?

At the end of the Book of Job, immediately following the response to Job which Ozgeorge has recently posted,: "It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. "

Job received no answer to his questions except a vision of the Transcendent God--but he was also not told he wasn't allowed to ask questions.

In the Book of Revelation, the martyrs beneath the throne of God question the Lord continuall 'How long Oh Lord?".

We most certainly can question God--we just can't expect Him to answer on anything but His terms.
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« Reply #821 on: November 10, 2009, 06:01:51 PM »

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And if such a god exists, how do you know he wouldn't want his authority questioned?

Good point. I've ran across the following quote at least a dozen times, and I think it articulates a valid principle, whether you believe in God or not...

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.” - Thomas Jefferson
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« Reply #822 on: November 10, 2009, 06:08:10 PM »

And if such a god exists,...

I don't follow a god....I follow God.  It's too bad you don't know Him.

As for the above point, yes, we may question the Church's teachings to an extent.

However, we should not skew the teachings of Scripture and Tradition to fit the fad of the day.  Too many folks use religion to explain and justify their motives and actions.

The Church was given to us by God, the teachings were passed down by the Church Fathers, Saints, etc.   Every dogma, every doctrine and canon, has been thought through, fought over, dissected, prayed upon, until it was accepted.

If the canons are to change, then there should be a very good reason, and a unified consensus of all the bishops.  Otherwise, today we allow gay marriage, tomorrow, we will allow nudists to walk into our churches... after all they are more comfortable that way...and who are we to interject our sensibilities upon them.....then there will be something else, and something else and something else.

...and I don't have to question the existence of God.  He's there, and I know it.  No question.  It makes me sad that you don't.  Maybe one day....


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« Reply #823 on: November 10, 2009, 06:26:49 PM »

Quote
And if such a god exists, how do you know he wouldn't want his authority questioned?

Good point. I've ran across the following quote at least a dozen times, and I think it articulates a valid principle, whether you believe in God or not...

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.” - Thomas Jefferson

Ok...so I lack Jefferson's elegance, but same general idea. Wink
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« Reply #824 on: November 10, 2009, 06:52:56 PM »

Anything can be questioned--including the authority of the Church or God Himself. But the critical point is what one does when one doesn't like the answers received, on what grounds one can reject answers.

I'm pretty much staying out of this thread for a variety of reasons.....however, I can't let the above statement go without a comment.

We may NOT question the authority of God.  Who are we to question God?  Who are we to even think we may understand why He does what He does, or says what He says?

How can the created question the authority of the Creator?

This hearkens back to the thread "Does God need to be defended?".  No, He probably doesn't and it doesn't phase Him in the least what people say.  He's not weaker or stronger because of the words of humans.... yet, I feel the need to defend Him.

Not for His sake, but, for our sakes.  We only do injury to ourselves if we question God's motives.

Excuse the interruption ...now, please continue with your bickering.



I guess it depends on the kind of questioning - or on what we mean by a question. So I'm glad you added this to the thread.

A question might be, 'God, forgive me, but I don't understand. Why does this happen/ Why is this so?' It's that kind of questioning that I understand best (I always want to ask these questions). I can't see that these are bad questions - they only become bad if what we are really saying is, 'God, you got it wrong'. But a question does not presume that the addressee is wrong; merely that the speaker needs further help. For me, I know that I always need more help. Yes, sometimes the answer is, 'Accept this as true, it is a matter of faith and there is no proof', but still it is not bad, I think, to want to explore these questions.
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« Reply #825 on: November 10, 2009, 07:14:06 PM »

I am having a hard time understanding the point about how the changes in attitude about Slavery is like how attitudes may change about Homosexuality.

I think we are mixing up social and cultural attitudes and prejudices with the World View of the Church.

No, we're not mixing up anything. Just saying that your personal opinion about what your church believes in this matter IS prejudice. It's a simple matter of truth, you might want to justify this prejudice by saying that god told you it was ok...but it's still prejudice.

Say what?

I am pretty darn certain that the Orthodox Church does not allow marriage between same sex couples. I am also equally certain the Mariage is pretty important to them.

FYI, they also have a good idea about what is spiritually beneficial for people by long years of practice. It's like trusting a Mathematics Professor with long years of experience and numerous achievements and awards versus an undergraduate math major.. The new student may have some deep insights but in most matters , I will go with experience.

You'd be a fool to 'trust' either the undergrad or the professor, no matter how distinguished. The validity of a mathematical theorem is based solely on the validity of the proof, the distinction of the person presenting it is utterly irrelevant and unworthy of consideration.

Quote
One thing I have learned about the Orthodox Church is that they are eminently reasonable.


Picking a choosing who you will side with or depend upon can be characterized as "Prejudice". I chose this over that. But it has a pejorative implication. Yes, I chose the Church and you don't. We are prejudiced both for and against something when we decide who to side with. So what?

Prejudice is not 'chos[ing] this over that', prejudice is judging an issue based on preconceived ideas and failing to consider all the facts. The mere fact that the church's position was formed without the understanding of modern biology and psychology implies that it is, necessarily, prejudiced.

okay.. a History Professor then....[[sigh]]

Okay..I think you are correct..Then this is not a case of prejudice. It is merely relying on the advice of the Church based on the good results they have achieved in forming Saints. Biology has nothing at all to do with the matter because the Church already accepts the fact of same sex attraction. This is not news Smiley
They promote marriage for various reasons. They are unlikely to stop promoting marriage, the biology of same sex attraction is not relevant to that decision..

I don't think GiC's point was the quibble you seem to think. My impression was that you saw the Church's authority as being of a different kind from the passing fads and new interpretations you get in other kinds of study and learning. One is meant to question one's teachers, no matter what they teach: in your view, if I understand correctly, the point is that one is not meant to question the authority of the Church.

Thank you...at least someone got my point. Wink What makes the position prejudice is the methodology used to arrive at the conclusion, the conclusion itself may be considered bigoted or derogatory, but prejudice refers more to methodology. All I'm asking here is that someone objectively investigate the matter for themselves and not 'rely' on any 'advice'. As someone who has taken it upon himself to question all advice that was given and who, as a result, changed their views by 180 degrees, I suspect that this approach would lead to a more tolerant outlook; but maybe that was just me. If you honestly question all your preconceived notions, are able to step back and approach this issue from a fresh new objective perspective fully informed by the knowledge of our day, and still arrive at the same conclusions, I would be much more accepting of your position; but as far as I can tell, no one here has actually done that.

In the end, all I'm asking you to do is to put in the effort required to think for yourself and not allow other people to do your thinking for you; honestly, is that an unreasonable request?

So... you believe that I don't understand the "knowledge of the day" and therefore would change my idea's about Gay Marriage if I did ?.. I just want to make certain I am hearing you correctly.

I think that is a pretty nervy thing to say..

Not at all, what I'm saying is that based on your posts here, it doesn't seem that you have honestly challenged your preconceived notions and this observation is not so much based on your conclusions as it is on your arguments. To do this, one honestly has to, at one point, find themselves honestly not knowing what the right answer is...which is never an easy place to be.

That's what I thought you said... Excuse me while I gasp..

My goodness.. That is incredibly condescending not to mention arrogant.. so much so I am not really angry..  You have have crossed the line into shear silliness.. I forgive and God forgives.

Come on man...you've been around long enough to know I'm nothing if not arrogant. Wink

Quote
I will have you know:

The first Gay rights march I went on was at the Republican Convention in 1972 in Miami Beach ( if you are old enough to recall, that is the one where Agnew had to land his helicopter into a cloud of tear Gas)... Back then, marching in a Gay Rights Protest  could easily result in a beating from the cops. Have you ever put your neck on the line for Gay Rights?

No...never went to a protest and seriously doubt I ever will. They are vulgar and devoid of intellect and reason, regardless of what side of the issue they fall on; I've never been one to trust the mob, though I will support without condition their right to assemble.

Quote
My only brother is Gay and living with his Partner ( I like the Partner better than my brother..don't tell him). My female cousin who lived with us growing up ( due to the poverty of her parents) is a lesbian. My  aunt was in a lesbian relationship for 20 plus years until she decided not to be Lesbian anymore ( sorry if that hurts the standard narrative).

Ah...I may have missed something in my initial analysis. But have no intent of going there. I'll stand by my paradigm as I originally presented it, a general observation relevant to the majority of this board.

Quote
I am a Liberal Democrat and have held minor elective office. I was the Student President of my University and well funded the various Gay groups on campus. I was known as a prominent anti- Vietnam War activist.
I am hardly an ill informed right winger.    

And I'm a Conservative Republican...what's your point? Regardless of your political affiliation, your arguments are unobjectionable and based on unrelated prejudices. Contrary to popular belief, these don't only come from the Republican party platform.

Quote
After College, I was a full time labor organizer for the very Gay friendly Socialist Workers Party for several years.

I should have known you were a pinko...is it really that hard to confine your oppression to the economic sphere?

Quote
It's a stronger argument to stick to the issues at hand and not try to characterize who or what other people are who don't agree with you.. It's really Bush-League.

Actually, I think your arguments is what prompted my criticism? But I'm not at all offended if my arguments are taken as propaganda, it's good to know that my years of reading Goebbels have not been in vain. Wink

OK fine.. Now you have bored me.. Thanks for your insights.
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« Reply #826 on: November 10, 2009, 07:24:21 PM »

Anything can be questioned--including the authority of the Church or God Himself. But the critical point is what one does when one doesn't like the answers received, on what grounds one can reject answers.

I'm pretty much staying out of this thread for a variety of reasons.....however, I can't let the above statement go without a comment.

We may NOT question the authority of God.  Who are we to question God?  Who are we to even think we may understand why He does what He does, or says what He says?

How can the created question the authority of the Creator?

This hearkens back to the thread "Does God need to be defended?".  No, He probably doesn't and it doesn't phase Him in the least what people say.  He's not weaker or stronger because of the words of humans.... yet, I feel the need to defend Him.

Not for His sake, but, for our sakes.  We only do injury to ourselves if we question God's motives.

Excuse the interruption ...now, please continue with your bickering.



I guess it depends on the kind of questioning - or on what we mean by a question. So I'm glad you added this to the thread.

A question might be, 'God, forgive me, but I don't understand. Why does this happen/ Why is this so?' It's that kind of questioning that I understand best (I always want to ask these questions). I can't see that these are bad questions - they only become bad if what we are really saying is, 'God, you got it wrong'. But a question does not presume that the addressee is wrong; merely that the speaker needs further help. For me, I know that I always need more help. Yes, sometimes the answer is, 'Accept this as true, it is a matter of faith and there is no proof', but still it is not bad, I think, to want to explore these questions.

Really, in my view it's not even an issue of questioning God (with the only exception being questioning God's existence). So, perhaps my last post was a bit misleading. I mean, unless God tells you something directly and you question it directly, then we're not even talking about questioning God. What we're talking about in most cases is questioning things that people claim God said or did or meant. Whether you're questioning something in the Bible or something said by your next door neighbor, you're talking about second hand information, and you're just questioning a claim that a fallible human has made about God. Even attributing infallibility to things like the Bible can't simply end all questioning--for example, not every statement in the Bible can be automatically assumed to be true (e.g. some of what Job's friends say, or what the author of Ecclesiastes says, might be considered wrong). This is an important issue to me because I probably seem like I'm testing or questioning God on this forum at times, when from my perspective, I'm really just questioning claims that people make about and for God in those moments.
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« Reply #827 on: November 10, 2009, 07:31:22 PM »

I am having a hard time understanding the point about how the changes in attitude about Slavery is like how attitudes may change about Homosexuality.

I think we are mixing up social and cultural attitudes and prejudices with the World View of the Church.

No, we're not mixing up anything. Just saying that your personal opinion about what your church believes in this matter IS prejudice. It's a simple matter of truth, you might want to justify this prejudice by saying that god told you it was ok...but it's still prejudice.

Say what?

I am pretty darn certain that the Orthodox Church does not allow marriage between same sex couples. I am also equally certain the Mariage is pretty important to them.

FYI, they also have a good idea about what is spiritually beneficial for people by long years of practice. It's like trusting a Mathematics Professor with long years of experience and numerous achievements and awards versus an undergraduate math major.. The new student may have some deep insights but in most matters , I will go with experience.

You'd be a fool to 'trust' either the undergrad or the professor, no matter how distinguished. The validity of a mathematical theorem is based solely on the validity of the proof, the distinction of the person presenting it is utterly irrelevant and unworthy of consideration.

Quote
One thing I have learned about the Orthodox Church is that they are eminently reasonable.


Picking a choosing who you will side with or depend upon can be characterized as "Prejudice". I chose this over that. But it has a pejorative implication. Yes, I chose the Church and you don't. We are prejudiced both for and against something when we decide who to side with. So what?

Prejudice is not 'chos[ing] this over that', prejudice is judging an issue based on preconceived ideas and failing to consider all the facts. The mere fact that the church's position was formed without the understanding of modern biology and psychology implies that it is, necessarily, prejudiced.

okay.. a History Professor then....[[sigh]]

Okay..I think you are correct..Then this is not a case of prejudice. It is merely relying on the advice of the Church based on the good results they have achieved in forming Saints. Biology has nothing at all to do with the matter because the Church already accepts the fact of same sex attraction. This is not news Smiley
They promote marriage for various reasons. They are unlikely to stop promoting marriage, the biology of same sex attraction is not relevant to that decision..

I don't think GiC's point was the quibble you seem to think. My impression was that you saw the Church's authority as being of a different kind from the passing fads and new interpretations you get in other kinds of study and learning. One is meant to question one's teachers, no matter what they teach: in your view, if I understand correctly, the point is that one is not meant to question the authority of the Church.

Thank you...at least someone got my point. Wink What makes the position prejudice is the methodology used to arrive at the conclusion, the conclusion itself may be considered bigoted or derogatory, but prejudice refers more to methodology. All I'm asking here is that someone objectively investigate the matter for themselves and not 'rely' on any 'advice'. As someone who has taken it upon himself to question all advice that was given and who, as a result, changed their views by 180 degrees, I suspect that this approach would lead to a more tolerant outlook; but maybe that was just me. If you honestly question all your preconceived notions, are able to step back and approach this issue from a fresh new objective perspective fully informed by the knowledge of our day, and still arrive at the same conclusions, I would be much more accepting of your position; but as far as I can tell, no one here has actually done that.

In the end, all I'm asking you to do is to put in the effort required to think for yourself and not allow other people to do your thinking for you; honestly, is that an unreasonable request?

So... you believe that I don't understand the "knowledge of the day" and therefore would change my idea's about Gay Marriage if I did ?.. I just want to make certain I am hearing you correctly.

I think that is a pretty nervy thing to say..

Not at all, what I'm saying is that based on your posts here, it doesn't seem that you have honestly challenged your preconceived notions and this observation is not so much based on your conclusions as it is on your arguments. To do this, one honestly has to, at one point, find themselves honestly not knowing what the right answer is...which is never an easy place to be.

That's what I thought you said... Excuse me while I gasp..

My goodness.. That is incredibly condescending not to mention arrogant.. so much so I am not really angry..  You have have crossed the line into shear silliness.. I forgive and God forgives.

Come on man...you've been around long enough to know I'm nothing if not arrogant. Wink

Quote
I will have you know:

The first Gay rights march I went on was at the Republican Convention in 1972 in Miami Beach ( if you are old enough to recall, that is the one where Agnew had to land his helicopter into a cloud of tear Gas)... Back then, marching in a Gay Rights Protest  could easily result in a beating from the cops. Have you ever put your neck on the line for Gay Rights?

No...never went to a protest and seriously doubt I ever will. They are vulgar and devoid of intellect and reason, regardless of what side of the issue they fall on; I've never been one to trust the mob, though I will support without condition their right to assemble.

Quote
My only brother is Gay and living with his Partner ( I like the Partner better than my brother..don't tell him). My female cousin who lived with us growing up ( due to the poverty of her parents) is a lesbian. My  aunt was in a lesbian relationship for 20 plus years until she decided not to be Lesbian anymore ( sorry if that hurts the standard narrative).

Ah...I may have missed something in my initial analysis. But have no intent of going there. I'll stand by my paradigm as I originally presented it, a general observation relevant to the majority of this board.

Quote
I am a Liberal Democrat and have held minor elective office. I was the Student President of my University and well funded the various Gay groups on campus. I was known as a prominent anti- Vietnam War activist.
I am hardly an ill informed right winger.    

And I'm a Conservative Republican...what's your point? Regardless of your political affiliation, your arguments are unobjectionable and based on unrelated prejudices. Contrary to popular belief, these don't only come from the Republican party platform.

Quote
After College, I was a full time labor organizer for the very Gay friendly Socialist Workers Party for several years.

I should have known you were a pinko...is it really that hard to confine your oppression to the economic sphere?

Quote
It's a stronger argument to stick to the issues at hand and not try to characterize who or what other people are who don't agree with you.. It's really Bush-League.

Actually, I think your arguments is what prompted my criticism? But I'm not at all offended if my arguments are taken as propaganda, it's good to know that my years of reading Goebbels have not been in vain. Wink

OK fine.. Now you have bored me.. Thanks for your insights.

LOL...anytime. Wink
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« Reply #828 on: November 11, 2009, 12:34:07 AM »

Grace and Peace,

With everything that has been stated, I strongly believe the Orthodox position has largely been 'lost' on this thread. I don't understand why, on an Orthodox Christian forum the views of the actual 'faith' has been silent. I, personally, find this confusing and disturbing. My own liberal partitioners may well share many of these positions but the Roman Church's teaching on this is very clear and without doubt but here where it is claimed the true faith rests within the hearts of the people I find very few 'like minds'. I don't see the voices of the early Fathers present. Where are the quotes of the fathers? Where are the voices of the Priests? What does SCOBA suggest?
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« Reply #829 on: November 11, 2009, 12:50:55 AM »

Perhaps the more traditional Orthodox are just tired of the discussion. I mean, there has been literally dozens of threads on homosexuality on this forum over the years. They even had to create and sticky a thread asking people to read the past threads before starting new threads on the subject (and there has been 2 1/2 years of additional homosexuality threads since then). So, really, as some (including myself) have said or implied over the past few days, this subject has really been done to death on this forum. I think there's been maybe 8-10 regular participants on these threads, with some being non-Orthodox (Liz, Asteriktos, GiC, etc.), and with a few being what could be called non-traditional on this particular issue (ozgeorge, deusveritasest, etc.)

EDIT--Here's an example of a more traditional Orthodox position on gay marriage
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« Reply #830 on: November 11, 2009, 01:00:46 AM »

Perhaps the more traditional Orthodox are just tired of the discussion.

Yep.  This is one thread I can't derail.   angel

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« Reply #831 on: November 11, 2009, 01:02:03 AM »

Perhaps the more traditional Orthodox are just tired of the discussion. I mean, there has been literally dozens of threads on homosexuality on this forum over the years. They even had to create and sticky a thread asking people to read the past threads before starting new threads on the subject (and there has been 2 1/2 years of additional homosexuality threads since then). So, really, as some (including myself) have said or implied over the past few days, this subject has really been done to death on this forum. I think there's been maybe 8-10 regular participants on these threads, with some being non-Orthodox (Liz, Asteriktos, GiC, etc.), and with a few being what could be called non-traditional on this particular issue (ozgeorge, deusveritasest, etc.)

Grace and Peace,

I understand you have stepped away from Orthodoxy and now have recognized, perhaps doubt in claims of the faith. What I like about you is that you don't sound like a liberal mouthpiece devoid of any indepenent views. Far too many on this forum are so idiological that they simply don't appear to be human beings but political agents and I mean that on both sides of the spectrum. I might not agree with you but I appreciate your posts.

Thank you.
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« Reply #832 on: November 11, 2009, 01:04:07 AM »

Grace and Peace,

With everything that has been stated, I strongly believe the Orthodox position has largely been 'lost' on this thread. I don't understand why, on an Orthodox Christian forum the views of the actual 'faith' has been silent.

Unless you were being sarcastic, the conservative Orthodox Christians who are members of this forum know better than to engage in a pointless discussion with secular humanists and "liberal" Orthodox who support the secular humanist position.
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« Reply #833 on: November 11, 2009, 01:28:19 AM »

Grace and Peace,

With everything that has been stated, I strongly believe the Orthodox position has largely been 'lost' on this thread. I don't understand why, on an Orthodox Christian forum the views of the actual 'faith' has been silent.

Unless you were being sarcastic, the conservative Orthodox Christians who are members of this forum know better than to engage in a pointless discussion with secular humanists and "liberal" Orthodox who support the secular humanist position.
"liberal" Orthodox?

now that's what I call an oxymoron
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« Reply #834 on: November 11, 2009, 01:34:17 AM »

Unless you were being sarcastic, the conservative Orthodox Christians who are members of this forum know better than to engage in a pointless discussion with secular humanists and "liberal" Orthodox who support the secular humanist position.

I suppose this event in the Russian Orthodox Church has been mentioned somewhere in this thread?

Nizhny Novgorod Church In Which Homosexuals Married Demolished

Portal-credo.ru, 7 October 2003

The church in Nizhny Novgorod in which two Nizhny Novgorod gays, Denis
Gogolev and Mikhail Morozov, were married in September has been
demolished. Denis Gogolev reported this to a "Rosbalt" correspondent
on 7 October. He said that the chapel, located in the central portion
of the city next to an unfinished church, was destroyed several days
ago. "The church has become a depraved institution, practically a
sect," Gogolev said. "It spits on its own canons." "Only Lenin and
Stalin destroyed churches," the Nizhegorod gay stressed.

Denis Gogolev and Mikhail Morozov were married by a priest of the
Nizhegorod diocese, Vladimir Enert, for 15,000 rubles. He was
unfrocked by decree of the Holy Synod "for blasphemy against the
sacrament of marriage," and his coparticipant, Fr Mikhail Kabanov, was
banned from clerical ministry.

Denis Gogolev commented on the synod's
decree: "These ministers of the church knew what they were doing and
they took the money." Thus he does not see anything reprehensible in
the actions of the Holy Synod and he is sure that "there could be many
other clergymen dismissed for depravity." (tr. by PDS, posted 7
October 2003)
--
http://washingtontimes.com/world/20031008-113616-3077r.htm
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« Reply #835 on: November 11, 2009, 02:06:03 AM »

"liberal" Orthodox?

now that's what I call an oxymoron

I'm just recycling a phrase others have already christened.   Wink

I was aware of the thread Father Ambrose posted about the demolition of a Church for performing gay marriage in 2003.  While demolition is an extreme act, there are Orthodox Christians who do believe that same sex marriage is never meant to be in the Orthodox Church, myself included.  Yet, why argue with secular humanists about same sex civil marriage when I have better things to do.   Grin
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« Reply #836 on: November 11, 2009, 02:48:37 AM »

"liberal" Orthodox?

now that's what I call an oxymoron

I'm just recycling a phrase others have already christened.   Wink

I was aware of the thread Father Ambrose posted about the demolition of a Church for performing gay marriage in 2003.  While demolition is an extreme act, there are Orthodox Christians who do believe that same sex marriage is never meant to be in the Orthodox Church, myself included.  Yet, why argue with secular humanists about same sex civil marriage when I have better things to do.   Grin

Amen. Cheesy

Selam
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« Reply #837 on: November 11, 2009, 11:02:24 AM »

The scriptures and the Church's interpretation of the scriptures on the issue of homosexual relationships are rather clear, I believe.

Relationships yes, mariage - no. There is simply no concept of homosexual marriage in Scripture, like there is no concept of biological evolution, electricity, automobiles, airplanes, protons, neutrons, women having rights independently of fathers or husbands, integrals, differentials, other galaxies...
But there is mention of homosexual sex and its flatly condemned.
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« Reply #838 on: November 11, 2009, 11:19:53 AM »

"liberal" Orthodox?

now that's what I call an oxymoron

I'm just recycling a phrase others have already christened.   Wink

I was aware of the thread Father Ambrose posted about the demolition of a Church for performing gay marriage in 2003.  While demolition is an extreme act, there are Orthodox Christians who do believe that same sex marriage is never meant to be in the Orthodox Church, myself included.  Yet, why argue with secular humanists about same sex civil marriage when I have better things to do.   Grin

Amen. Cheesy

Selam
If we don't they gain a stronger foothold as we see happening in every western nation.  Here's a good place to learn how to argue with them more effectively.  It improves your skills at debating more effectively to help others struggling with this illicit agenda.  America is suffering from indifference.  People have become lazy and more inclined to put it off on the next generation... "as long as it doesn't effect my life I'm just not going to get into it".  I'm not suggesting that everyone drop what their doing to get into the fight.  It is a war but the battles are on these issues to steal the minds of our youth who are being sucked into this immoral way of life.  Laws made to increase protection of those with same sex attraction are gaining because they are fighting with all of their resources.  They are obviously coming close to winning.  We cannot become complacent...not even for a second.  But life does go on.  And it is our duty to evangelize as Christians.  Now my Catholic friends are not going to like this but our Director of Religious Education during our RCIA class told us, around 40+ that he believes the Protestants will be what saves the Catholic Church from the cafeteria Catholics.  I believe it will be a combination of them, Anglicans and Orthodox.  This is why I have high hopes for the reuniting of these groups of Christians.  There are many new orthodox Catholics now, but the older more messed up crowd are still "in power" having taken over many of the education programs in this country without checks and balances to reel them in to orthodoxy.  What happened to me in the late70's early 80's was inexcusable and I pray that God has mercy on the religious, priests and the bishop for sweeping me under the carpet and burying me alive.  This is what caused me to run.  Had I known about the Eastern Orthodox Church back then I may actually have continued towards the priesthood since I've always felt called.  But now I have no way to work towards that unless I renounce Catholicism, which isn't going to happen now.  The bishops are beginning to speak out more profoundly, but I'm still not impressed until they are willing to lay their lives down in a great way to protect the flock and especially the innocent.  God have mercy on me for feeling so strongly about this.  I work on anger issues over what happened to me.  The Army did not help either.  So I have to pray constantly to keep a cool head.  it's why I pray the Liturgy of the Hours and the Rosary.  I lost my Chotki  so I just pray the Jesus Prayer as I think about it.  Having young children I'm concerned for their future and their children's children.  God's in control, but we do have responsibility to be good stewards.
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« Reply #839 on: November 11, 2009, 12:22:31 PM »

"liberal" Orthodox?

now that's what I call an oxymoron

I'm just recycling a phrase others have already christened.   Wink

I was aware of the thread Father Ambrose posted about the demolition of a Church for performing gay marriage in 2003.  While demolition is an extreme act, there are Orthodox Christians who do believe that same sex marriage is never meant to be in the Orthodox Church, myself included.  Yet, why argue with secular humanists about same sex civil marriage when I have better things to do.   Grin

Amen. Cheesy

Selam
If we don't they gain a stronger foothold as we see happening in every western nation.  Here's a good place to learn how to argue with them more effectively.  It improves your skills at debating more effectively to help others struggling with this illicit agenda.  America is suffering from indifference.  People have become lazy and more inclined to put it off on the next generation... "as long as it doesn't effect my life I'm just not going to get into it".  I'm not suggesting that everyone drop what their doing to get into the fight.  It is a war but the battles are on these issues to steal the minds of our youth who are being sucked into this immoral way of life.  Laws made to increase protection of those with same sex attraction are gaining because they are fighting with all of their resources.

Yeah, them pesky anti-discrimination laws...wouldn't life be so much better if we could gun down gays in the street? Or, perhaps, the Senate should have a special committee to investigate gays who threaten the fabric of society...hmmm, what to call it? Oh, oh, I know, how about the 'Unamerican Activities Committee'...are you now or have you ever been...
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« Reply #840 on: November 11, 2009, 12:23:08 PM »

"liberal" Orthodox?

now that's what I call an oxymoron

I'm just recycling a phrase others have already christened.   Wink

I was aware of the thread Father Ambrose posted about the demolition of a Church for performing gay marriage in 2003.  While demolition is an extreme act, there are Orthodox Christians who do believe that same sex marriage is never meant to be in the Orthodox Church, myself included.  Yet, why argue with secular humanists about same sex civil marriage when I have better things to do.   Grin

Amen. Cheesy

Selam
If we don't they gain a stronger foothold as we see happening in every western nation.  Here's a good place to learn how to argue with them more effectively.  It improves your skills at debating more effectively to help others struggling with this illicit agenda.  America is suffering from indifference.  People have become lazy and more inclined to put it off on the next generation... "as long as it doesn't effect my life I'm just not going to get into it".  I'm not suggesting that everyone drop what their doing to get into the fight.  It is a war but the battles are on these issues to steal the minds of our youth who are being sucked into this immoral way of life.  Laws made to increase protection of those with same sex attraction are gaining because they are fighting with all of their resources.

Yeah, them pesky anti-discrimination laws...wouldn't life be so much better if we could gun down gays in the street? Or, perhaps, the Senate should have a special committee to investigate gays who threaten the fabric of society...hmmm, what to call it? Oh, oh, I know, how about the 'Unamerican Activities Committee'...are you now or have you ever been...
Another silly post. You are on a roll.
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« Reply #841 on: November 11, 2009, 12:48:01 PM »

"liberal" Orthodox?

now that's what I call an oxymoron

I'm just recycling a phrase others have already christened.   Wink

I was aware of the thread Father Ambrose posted about the demolition of a Church for performing gay marriage in 2003.  While demolition is an extreme act, there are Orthodox Christians who do believe that same sex marriage is never meant to be in the Orthodox Church, myself included.  Yet, why argue with secular humanists about same sex civil marriage when I have better things to do.   Grin

Amen. Cheesy

Selam
If we don't they gain a stronger foothold as we see happening in every western nation.  Here's a good place to learn how to argue with them more effectively.  It improves your skills at debating more effectively to help others struggling with this illicit agenda.  America is suffering from indifference.  People have become lazy and more inclined to put it off on the next generation... "as long as it doesn't effect my life I'm just not going to get into it".  I'm not suggesting that everyone drop what their doing to get into the fight.  It is a war but the battles are on these issues to steal the minds of our youth who are being sucked into this immoral way of life.  Laws made to increase protection of those with same sex attraction are gaining because they are fighting with all of their resources.

Yeah, them pesky anti-discrimination laws...wouldn't life be so much better if we could gun down gays in the street? Or, perhaps, the Senate should have a special committee to investigate gays who threaten the fabric of society...hmmm, what to call it? Oh, oh, I know, how about the 'Unamerican Activities Committee'...are you now or have you ever been...
Another silly post. You are on a roll.

Sorry, I can't help myself when reading other silly posts. Wink
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« Reply #842 on: November 11, 2009, 04:12:03 PM »

No need to bash me.. Christianity is the last accepted prejudice in America and I'm sure the same in other countries as well.  Your solution would be to remove all of our teachings so that we can not teach the truth.  It's happening already and currently this way in Canada.  No once says that hurting gays is okay, certainly not me.  I've had plenty of gay friends in my past.  But that doesn't mean I condone what they do.  The same goes for heterosexual promiscuous friends.   It's why I don't have very many of those either anymore.  I learned to stay away.  Now that I'm reconnecting with old friends from high school I'm finding out that my choices were pretty darned good compared to many of them.  Being a child of a divorced family twice over I've seen about as much as any child can bare.  My older brother killed himself because he couldn't handle failure of his trophy wife dumping him as well as following the rules that finally caught up to him.  My younger brother along with my mom manipulated his girlfriend in to aborting the only child he would ever have had.  Now he defends animals almost as much as PETA.  These are all examples of distortion.  My spiritual director made a pass on me while I was a seminarian.  Others did too but I was naive and somewhat innocent and had no clue what they were really doing or rather didn't want to admit what they were doing until it was too late.  For about a year I wondered if I had same sex tendencies and that was why they were making passes on me.  But after going into a nearly 4 year relationship with a young catholic girl I realized why...  I'm not that ugly.  I just had a low self-esteem in that regard and never saw myself as attractive.  I find that there are very twisted homosexuals out there, much like the twisted sicko hetero sexuals that are recruiting sex partners to make their dreams come true.  There is an unusually high reate of mental illness among the same sex crowds from what I've heard and read.  Several times in my life I just wished that this wasn't immoral.  Why, because I want people to be happy too.  But what I came to realize is that if it isn't from God it won't make them happy and eventually they'll tear down the rest of us to attempt to reach a level of self-fulfillment that just doesn't exist.  I'm married and can honestly say that I like to be active in my vocation....partly the marital act.  BUT that's not possible and even advisable to abstain for periods of time to increase the desire and to get unfulfilled urges out of your system by taming them, as scripture says.  Tame your desires...it's called being a sex addict.  I have had many male friends in my life but never allowed sex in the relationship because that is NOT being chaste.  Sex outside of marriage is sinful.  Even some sex in marriage can become sinful.  Moral Theology reveals truth in my opinion.  But the more we allow ourselves to be blinded by our desires, whether money, power, position, fame, or sex etc. the more narcasistic we become and ever trying harder to achieve a self-fulfillment that just doesn't exist in this life.  I'm sorry you don't get it.  I never treat those with same sex attraction less than even faithful Christians.  However I've learned that avoiding strong relationships with them is prudent because when they take a nose dive for the worse it's bad, it'll even drag you down with them.  It's an ever over the top emotional roller coaster.  I have had lots of gay friends in my past.  I lived in Louisiana and around New Orleans.  I know what the life style is like.  I've had to do maintenance on gay men's apartments and have been thoroughly disgusted by what I witnessed.  It's seriously a disordered life style in my opinion and experience.  I've had gay men attempt to make passes on me knowing I'm married.  It's a sign that they do not have healthy boundaries.  But I've even had women make unwanted passes on me too.  So I know to keep a healthy boundary between people, including close friends.  All it takes is one bad fight with a spouse or friend or family member and down the path of self-destruction we go.  Know don't have a trial without letting me know I'm on trial here.  I'm not the one living a promiscuous life style.  I try to treat everybody equal across the board.  Also, I lost good standing with my mother because she tried to engage me in a racist discussion about a minority group in this country.  I refused and after I had our first child she maticulously placed a revised Will and Testament on the dinning room table right in front of our path.  She wrote me and my older brother, the one that committed suicide a couple of years later, out of her will.  My younger playboy living brother, childless and treating his now dying lab like a child and even talks to it like its a real person.  He has been unemployed for a very long time.  And they also accepted this same sex style of living, even though they didn't engage in it themselves.  Now he's alone, very depressed, attempted suicide at least twice in his life, and forever probably lonely till he dies.  I on the other hand suffer from severe depression, have wanted to die, but would never end my life because I have God, the love of Jesus in my heart, as the song goes.  When I was a teen, about 35 years ago I adopted the Jesus, Mary and Joseph as my family because mine was utterly destroyed with living in and being of the world.  I was an outcast in my own family because I chose Christ.  Am I getting my position across yet?  Judge not lest ye be judged.  I don't judge you I condemn the act of unchasteness...not just the homosexual act.  There is one thing being attracted to someone but its another to engage in unchaste sex with them.  There are groups out there that argue they should be able to have sex with children...some even with animals.  Where do we draw the line.  Some would say no where.  Governments know otherwise.  Allowing these things to continue unchecked leads to self-destructive behavior.  Some want a relationship now with sex dolls.  I was flipping through HBO channels a few years back and discovered a show showing "sex dolls".  Apparently there are some very twisted people out there that want to live for sex.  Sex is their reward in this life.  It's addictive and very dangerous like any drug.  Have you ever met someone with bipolar disorder?  My goodness.  They destroy everybody's life around them to keep up their high.  We rented a house to a gay couple once.  They were very nice and we overlooked their idiosyncrasies.  We tried our best to treat them even like a married couple.  The more feminine man played the female role.  He had beautiful blue eyes...he was divorced and had children.  His partner and he worked at a security sales place and took advantage of our neighbor in her late 80's, scaring her to death.  Then they up and left without paying a dime because I was so busy trying not to be judgmental about their life style that I failed to realize they were duping us.  About a year or so later the feminine man died from Aids.  I looked them up trying to find them...just out of curiosity.  He is now living close to us and his partner is dead.  Sure I didn't put this all together well, but it's not my battle.  I say what I think about it and know that I'm on God's side because that is what He wants, not what I want.  I personally feel that if I were God for a day I'd allow it.  But then again, how sinful of me to even think of such a thing.  That's why He is God and we aren't.  He created us, not us Him. 

Can you tell you hit a nerve?

[added]My mother died at the age of 56, 4 months after my brother committed suicie feeling hopeless.  Her cancer came out of remission and she died in a horrible way on Christmas Eve, our families favorite holiday.  I had to suck up my feelings and act like nothing happened because I didn't want my son and wife to experience a sad Christmas, the worst day of my life.  The military chaplain used her life as a "come to Jesus meeting".  I was horrified and yet agreed with what he had said at the same time.  It's was very sad.  She was a chain smoker and denied that smoking caused cancer.  Denying something does not make it not so.

I'll be praying for you today.  Whether or not you want it.  It's what God wants me to do, not what I want.  Lord may my will be joined to Yours. Amen.  Lord Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on me a poor sinner. 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 04:45:31 PM by Vocatio » Logged

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« Reply #843 on: November 11, 2009, 07:37:16 PM »

I forgot to add that during the time the gay couple, we thought to be friends, took off without paying rent and utilities for 6 months my wife was pregnant.  We had to sign the house back over to keep from hitting rock bottom any further than we already had after mom cut us off from her life.  I konw...  sob sob sob.
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« Reply #844 on: November 11, 2009, 08:23:45 PM »

Laws made to increase protection of those with same sex attraction are gaining because they are fighting with all of their resources.
What are you suggesting? That same-sex attracted people should they not be protected?
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« Reply #845 on: November 11, 2009, 09:08:24 PM »

No need to bash me.. Christianity is the last accepted prejudice in America and I'm sure the same in other countries as well.  Your solution would be to remove all of our teachings so that we can not teach the truth.  It's happening already and currently this way in Canada.  No once says that hurting gays is okay, certainly not me.  I've had plenty of gay friends in my past.  But that doesn't mean I condone what they do.  The same goes for heterosexual promiscuous friends.   It's why I don't have very many of those either anymore.  I learned to stay away.  Now that I'm reconnecting with old friends from high school I'm finding out that my choices were pretty darned good compared to many of them.  Being a child of a divorced family twice over I've seen about as much as any child can bare.  My older brother killed himself because he couldn't handle failure of his trophy wife dumping him as well as following the rules that finally caught up to him.  My younger brother along with my mom manipulated his girlfriend in to aborting the only child he would ever have had.  Now he defends animals almost as much as PETA.  These are all examples of distortion.  My spiritual director made a pass on me while I was a seminarian.  Others did too but I was naive and somewhat innocent and had no clue what they were really doing or rather didn't want to admit what they were doing until it was too late.  For about a year I wondered if I had same sex tendencies and that was why they were making passes on me.  But after going into a nearly 4 year relationship with a young catholic girl I realized why...  I'm not that ugly.  I just had a low self-esteem in that regard and never saw myself as attractive.  I find that there are very twisted homosexuals out there, much like the twisted sicko hetero sexuals that are recruiting sex partners to make their dreams come true.  There is an unusually high reate of mental illness among the same sex crowds from what I've heard and read.  Several times in my life I just wished that this wasn't immoral.  Why, because I want people to be happy too.  But what I came to realize is that if it isn't from God it won't make them happy and eventually they'll tear down the rest of us to attempt to reach a level of self-fulfillment that just doesn't exist.  I'm married and can honestly say that I like to be active in my vocation....partly the marital act.  BUT that's not possible and even advisable to abstain for periods of time to increase the desire and to get unfulfilled urges out of your system by taming them, as scripture says.  Tame your desires...it's called being a sex addict.  I have had many male friends in my life but never allowed sex in the relationship because that is NOT being chaste.  Sex outside of marriage is sinful.  Even some sex in marriage can become sinful.  Moral Theology reveals truth in my opinion.  But the more we allow ourselves to be blinded by our desires, whether money, power, position, fame, or sex etc. the more narcasistic we become and ever trying harder to achieve a self-fulfillment that just doesn't exist in this life.  I'm sorry you don't get it.  I never treat those with same sex attraction less than even faithful Christians.  However I've learned that avoiding strong relationships with them is prudent because when they take a nose dive for the worse it's bad, it'll even drag you down with them.  It's an ever over the top emotional roller coaster.  I have had lots of gay friends in my past.  I lived in Louisiana and around New Orleans.  I know what the life style is like.  I've had to do maintenance on gay men's apartments and have been thoroughly disgusted by what I witnessed.  It's seriously a disordered life style in my opinion and experience.  I've had gay men attempt to make passes on me knowing I'm married.  It's a sign that they do not have healthy boundaries.  But I've even had women make unwanted passes on me too.  So I know to keep a healthy boundary between people, including close friends.  All it takes is one bad fight with a spouse or friend or family member and down the path of self-destruction we go.  Know don't have a trial without letting me know I'm on trial here.  I'm not the one living a promiscuous life style.  I try to treat everybody equal across the board.  Also, I lost good standing with my mother because she tried to engage me in a racist discussion about a minority group in this country.  I refused and after I had our first child she maticulously placed a revised Will and Testament on the dinning room table right in front of our path.  She wrote me and my older brother, the one that committed suicide a couple of years later, out of her will.  My younger playboy living brother, childless and treating his now dying lab like a child and even talks to it like its a real person.  He has been unemployed for a very long time.  And they also accepted this same sex style of living, even though they didn't engage in it themselves.  Now he's alone, very depressed, attempted suicide at least twice in his life, and forever probably lonely till he dies.  I on the other hand suffer from severe depression, have wanted to die, but would never end my life because I have God, the love of Jesus in my heart, as the song goes.  When I was a teen, about 35 years ago I adopted the Jesus, Mary and Joseph as my family because mine was utterly destroyed with living in and being of the world.  I was an outcast in my own family because I chose Christ.  Am I getting my position across yet?  Judge not lest ye be judged.  I don't judge you I condemn the act of unchasteness...not just the homosexual act.  There is one thing being attracted to someone but its another to engage in unchaste sex with them.  There are groups out there that argue they should be able to have sex with children...some even with animals.  Where do we draw the line.  Some would say no where.  Governments know otherwise.  Allowing these things to continue unchecked leads to self-destructive behavior.  Some want a relationship now with sex dolls.  I was flipping through HBO channels a few years back and discovered a show showing "sex dolls".  Apparently there are some very twisted people out there that want to live for sex.  Sex is their reward in this life.  It's addictive and very dangerous like any drug.  Have you ever met someone with bipolar disorder?  My goodness.  They destroy everybody's life around them to keep up their high.  We rented a house to a gay couple once.  They were very nice and we overlooked their idiosyncrasies.  We tried our best to treat them even like a married couple.  The more feminine man played the female role.  He had beautiful blue eyes...he was divorced and had children.  His partner and he worked at a security sales place and took advantage of our neighbor in her late 80's, scaring her to death.  Then they up and left without paying a dime because I was so busy trying not to be judgmental about their life style that I failed to realize they were duping us.  About a year or so later the feminine man died from Aids.  I looked them up trying to find them...just out of curiosity.  He is now living close to us and his partner is dead.  Sure I didn't put this all together well, but it's not my battle.  I say what I think about it and know that I'm on God's side because that is what He wants, not what I want.  I personally feel that if I were God for a day I'd allow it.  But then again, how sinful of me to even think of such a thing.  That's why He is God and we aren't.  He created us, not us Him. 

Can you tell you hit a nerve?

[added]My mother died at the age of 56, 4 months after my brother committed suicie feeling hopeless.  Her cancer came out of remission and she died in a horrible way on Christmas Eve, our families favorite holiday.  I had to suck up my feelings and act like nothing happened because I didn't want my son and wife to experience a sad Christmas, the worst day of my life.  The military chaplain used her life as a "come to Jesus meeting".  I was horrified and yet agreed with what he had said at the same time.  It's was very sad.  She was a chain smoker and denied that smoking caused cancer.  Denying something does not make it not so.

I'll be praying for you today.  Whether or not you want it.  It's what God wants me to do, not what I want.  Lord may my will be joined to Yours. Amen.  Lord Jesus Christ son of God have mercy on me a poor sinner. 


Dear Vocatio, welcome to the discussion.

PLEASE !!!  Break up your posts into proper paragraphs. Your post is nearly impossible for me to read in one gigantic block of words...
A few words do pop out. I see ..Sex Dolls.. and... attempted suicide..New Orleans and PETA...  laugh

I am sure this adds up to quite a tale !

Really, when one thought ends and you are on to another, hit your enter button, skip a space or two and begin a new paragraph..Much appreciated
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 09:11:04 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #846 on: November 12, 2009, 02:05:46 AM »

Sorry about my previous long post.  I was in a hurry and had too much oozing out at the same time. 

I hate it when people call me a bigot because its just not true.  It's a kill the messenger tactic to avoid dealing with what that person said.  And I know I probably didn't say it well at all.  There is no need to bash me.  Christianity is the last accepted prejudice in America and I'm sure the same in other countries as well.  If homosexuality was fine by God I'd say fine, go for it.  Who knows I might have even given it a whorl myself just for kicks.  But in reality I'm not inclinded to allow myself to go in that direction because God says "NO".  It would be just as fine to dump my wife and children so that I can seem my pleasures in a younger wife with all of her "faculties" still intact.  You see men are naturally stimulated by the visual more than the relationship.  Isn't that justifiable reasons to dump my wife and those pesky children?  Well, in reality I have decided to follow Christ and so I also choose to follow the direction of Ephesians 5, "a man is to love his wife like Christ loves the church".  I set aside my own desires and feelings for the sake of the gospel, to serve others, my wife and my children.

The rest of the longer version is a mumbled up mess of emotion tied into expressing why I am against this for not only biblical and church and tradition teaching but because of personal real live experiences with folks wanting to live their dreams no matter what.  They hurt people to get their temporary rewards.  Most of it leads to very unhealthy living on a roller coaster ride hurting anyone that happens to be in the way.  The rest is just details to prove my experience.

I'm not a bigot.  I wish that it was alright by God for the sake of all of those with this attraction.  What about those with bisexual tendencies?  Might as well allow polygamy as well.  And why stop there.  Let's relieve the desires of those that love to love children...or those that love to really love animals.  These groups all exist.  Where do we draw the line?  It does get even worse you know.  No, it's not because of bigotry but rather by reason that I say no.  I wish it were okay by God, but it's not.  And I can say it's okay no matter what the law says.  The bible says that "laws are made for the lawless".  Whether the law is changed or not will not change my view of what a real marriage is.  No one can change it.  We don't have the right.
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« Reply #847 on: November 12, 2009, 02:14:50 AM »

Quote
I hate it when people call me a bigot because its just not true.  It's a kill the messenger tactic to avoid dealing with what that person said.  And I know I probably didn't say it well at all.  There is no need to bash me.

Well, some posters here like to rile up their intellectual opponents. It's one of their debate tactics. Don't let it get to you, it's nothing personal.

Quote
What about those with bisexual tendencies?  Might as well allow polygamy as well.  And why stop there.  Let's relieve the desires of those that love to love children...or those that love to really love animals.  These groups all exist.  Where do we draw the line?

I draw the line at "do no harm [to others]," but that's just me. And of course that isn't a definitive solution... for example, I've seen arguments on both sides of the issue as to whether bestiality harms animals, so I don't claim that my own "line" makes everything simple. Smiley
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« Reply #848 on: November 12, 2009, 03:00:28 AM »

Vocatio, people might call you a bigot, but probably not for your opinion that homosexual relationships are wrong. Plenty of people here have that view and explain it with great intelligence and courtesy. You're not just expressing that view, you're saying that someone duped you and choosing to assume that this is somehow linked to their homosexuality. That's where the bigotry comes in. It would be just as biased if I assume my positive experience of homosexuals (though I know more lesbians than gay men) were 'proof' that homosexuality is good.

Just as a separate note: I am not sure from what you say, but bisexuality isn't a halfway house to polygamy. There's no intrinsic reason someone bisexual wouldn't choose a monogamous relationship, any more than you would struggle to commit to one person because you liked blondes and brunettes equally.
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« Reply #849 on: November 12, 2009, 12:52:45 PM »

Vocatio, you also made references to bipolar disorder which paints a broad brush for what turns out to be a very treatable medical condition.  Just because you were taken advantage of by mentally ill people who clearly lacked insight does not mean all mentally ill take advantage of people.

Seems like you came into this thread with an axe to grind.  Find another hobby.   Angry
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« Reply #850 on: November 12, 2009, 01:00:19 PM »

Quote
also made references to bipolar disorder which paints a broad brush for what turns out to be a very treatable medical condition.

Well thank you, I think I am doing quite well on my meds for bipolar  Grin  The problem isn't so much with generalizing about people with bipolar... people with that disorder can and often do have unstable relationships with those around them. I would agree with you that, while it can't be cured, it can often be treated fairly productively. I'm on two meds, and received some therapy, and the difference between before and after is like the difference between night and day in some areas of my life (in others, the change has been less pronounced). I think the main thing I would disagree with in Vocatio's post is the idea that people with bipolar "destroy everybody's life around them to keep up their high". That would be like saying that babies dirty their diapers just to be annoying. It's sort of placing the blame in the wrong place, for the wrong reasons... even if there are still dirty diapers at the end of the day.
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« Reply #851 on: November 12, 2009, 01:12:39 PM »

I think the main thing I would disagree with in Vocatio's post is the idea that people with bipolar "destroy everybody's life around them to keep up their high". That would be like saying that babies dirty their diapers just to be annoying. It's sort of placing the blame in the wrong place, for the wrong reasons... even if there are still dirty diapers at the end of the day.

I was responding to the bolded text without requoting it.   Smiley

Some people can also be mis-diagnosed with bipolar or can have bipolar plus borderline personality disorder plus substance abuse plus medical conditions plus a whole bunch of other things.
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« Reply #852 on: November 12, 2009, 02:01:38 PM »

Sorry about my previous long post.  I was in a hurry and had too much oozing out at the same time. 

I hate it when people call me a bigot because its just not true.  It's a kill the messenger tactic to avoid dealing with what that person said.  And I know I probably didn't say it well at all.  There is no need to bash me.  Christianity is the last accepted prejudice in America and I'm sure the same in other countries as well.  If homosexuality was fine by God I'd say fine, go for it.  Who knows I might have even given it a whorl myself just for kicks.  But in reality I'm not inclinded to allow myself to go in that direction because God says "NO".  It would be just as fine to dump my wife and children so that I can seem my pleasures in a younger wife with all of her "faculties" still intact.  You see men are naturally stimulated by the visual more than the relationship.  Isn't that justifiable reasons to dump my wife and those pesky children?  Well, in reality I have decided to follow Christ and so I also choose to follow the direction of Ephesians 5, "a man is to love his wife like Christ loves the church".  I set aside my own desires and feelings for the sake of the gospel, to serve others, my wife and my children.

You're blaming mental illness that results from a neurological imbalance on homosexual and, even more than that, on TOLERANCE of homosexuality; furthermore, you're objecting to equal protection under the law based on sexual orientation...and you're offended by being called a bigot? I would love to stop calling you a bigot and will do so as soon as you stop acting in a bigoted manner. I am sorry for the difficulties you have had with friends and family; but they do not make intolerance and discrimination justifiable.

I have also had several homosexual friends, granted most of them lesbians, but I have never had any of the difficulties you suggest are inherent with such friends...they were just friends. I even had a very close bisexual lady friend who was with another woman before we met, never any problems related to her being bisexual, it was her going back to grad school that eventually ended the relationship...perhaps I should start railing against higher education as causing the downfall of American society? lol Wink

Quote
The rest of the longer version is a mumbled up mess of emotion tied into expressing why I am against this for not only biblical and church and tradition teaching but because of personal real live experiences with folks wanting to live their dreams no matter what.  They hurt people to get their temporary rewards.  Most of it leads to very unhealthy living on a roller coaster ride hurting anyone that happens to be in the way.  The rest is just details to prove my experience.

I've had good experiences with my gay friends, you haven't. Have you ever stopped to consider that they might not have been the problem?

Quote
I'm not a bigot.  I wish that it was alright by God for the sake of all of those with this attraction.  What about those with bisexual tendencies?  Might as well allow polygamy as well.

Ok...now you're making this personal. I have more than a philosophical interest in defending the ménage à trois...are you sure you want to go there? Wink Plus, weren't a bunch of your holy bible guys involved in plural marriages? Surely you're not going to tell me god has a problem with them too?

Quote
And why stop there.  Let's relieve the desires of those that love to love children...or those that love to really love animals.  These groups all exist.  Where do we draw the line?

I draw the line with the defence of human liberty, I'd be ok with legalizing bestiality...but while I think 18 for an age of consent is a bit high (that's what it is here in California anyway), actual children are simply unable to consent or effectively resist unwanted advances, allowing that would undermine their rights and liberties. That is the limit of liberty, when the exercise of your liberty directly and immediately violates another's liberty.

Quote
It does get even worse you know.

Like them horrid sex dolls? Come on, nothing inherently wrong with pleasuring one's self. Though I do sympathize with Ron White's take on the matter:

'The year I turned 13, I experimented with something, and my grandma caught me in the bathroom just a'doin it. She said, "It says in the Bible, young man, that it is better for your seed to fall in the belly of a whore than on the ground." I said, "Tough to argue with that logic, Grandma. You got 50 bucks?"' Grin

Quote
No, it's not because of bigotry but rather by reason that I say no.  I wish it were okay by God, but it's not.  And I can say it's okay no matter what the law says.  The bible says that "laws are made for the lawless".  Whether the law is changed or not will not change my view of what a real marriage is.  No one can change it.  We don't have the right.

That's fine, you have the freedom of conscience to believe whatever you like. What you don't have is the right to use violence by the hand of the state to force those beliefs on others.
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« Reply #853 on: November 12, 2009, 06:42:24 PM »

Vocatio, you also made references to bipolar disorder which paints a broad brush for what turns out to be a very treatable medical condition.  Just because you were taken advantage of by mentally ill people who clearly lacked insight does not mean all mentally ill take advantage of people.

Seems like you came into this thread with an axe to grind.  Find another hobby.   Angry

Well said. It's not always easy interacting with mentally ill people of any stripe, but that doesn't excuse us failing to adapt.
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Vocatio
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« Reply #854 on: November 12, 2009, 11:00:16 PM »

Okay, you guys are over analyzing my post.  I took it that I was being accused of being a bigot for holding to my position against homosexual marriage.  One of the first things I learned in Psych 101 is the fact that people generalize.  Why? to have a conversation and to simplify our thoughts.  We simplify things or we'd end up as one of those patients. 

I have have some experience dealing with mentally ill people, including family members.  These are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.  I suffer from major depression and anxieties.  So I'm right up there.  I have the meds to prove it...and the therapy time as well. 

I was talking about people with bipolar disorder the way I learned it from the therapists.  Granted the therapists were probably talking about the more extreme cases.  This is a very disheartening disease.  I've seen the results of patients that don't stay on their meds.  And the problem with a large percentage of those suffering with bipolar disorder is that they like the highs that give them the rush and tend to get away from their meds.  I have sister-in-law in my family that suffers from it. 

One day I talked to a very intelligent man that was a preacher.  He was working on advancing his education attending a bible college.  I was trying to figure out why this guy was there because he seemed perfectly normal to me at the time.  My wife thought he was fine to.  He talked very intelligently about some concepts.  He started to carry on about something that began to sound very strange.  He pulled out a large taped together group of papers and proceeded to tell us that he discovered without a doubt exactly where God resides on the other side of some astronomical chart he prepared.  That's when we realized why he was there.  He was only one of several people that I met during that time with bipolar disorder.  The woman suffering from this seem to fixate on me and this disturbed my wife understandably.  I'm a married man.  I thought my wife was overreacting at first but then I found out the rest of this ladies story. 

I was being maybe a bit too empathetic towards some of the patients.  My reason for being there is complicated but it involved a major crisis in my life that ultimately led me back home to my original faith.  I spend a lifetime searching for God, for truth.  But during this long period of time my wife finally reached me and convinced me that it might not be wise to drag mental patients into our lives.  I wanted to try to help them.  But I was not trained nor prepared to handle the responsibilities that would certainly come along with it.  [This is the year we discovered HUFF on showtime.  LOL.]  It didn't take but one good story from the lady so obviously attracted to me to convince me my wife was right.  That's when I learned about how violent some mental patients can become when feeling rejected.  After that I stayed away, but only after letting her know my wife was uncomfortable with her presence around me because I was married.  My wife wasn't really jealous.  She just knows about these things after studying about some of it in college.

I apologize if you're offended.  Didn't mean to offend anyone suffering from mental illness.  I suffer from afflictions too.  So I get it.  But, that doesn't mean I'm going to seek happiness in this world to make me happy.  In fact, it would have the opposite effect.  People that suffer from some mental illness don't even realize they're suffering from it many times until its too late.  I'm not going to say its easy for them to walk away from their inclinations.  But I'm not going to say its okay to do what you want either.  We have a responsibility towards our fellow man as a whole, not just individually.  We are a community. 

And now I want to back out of this conversation after effectively making a donkey out of myself.  And I'm not even a democrat.  I know people with same sex attraction that do not act on their inclinations.  I know they must suffer, much like a celibate priest of religious sister or brother.  But it's doable.  Those that fall we must pray for constantly to help them get through it.  But we must not make it easy for them to become more self-destructive. 

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