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Question: Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 19 (26.8%)
Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to fight - 10 (14.1%)
Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates - 7 (9.9%)
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity - 20 (28.2%)
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 15 (21.1%)
Total Voters: 71

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Author Topic: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread  (Read 69775 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #675 on: November 06, 2009, 04:41:21 PM »

I don't know, but again, according to homosexual people, what makes them different from heterosexuals is a lot more than their desire to have anal sex (which quite a lot of them do not wish and do not practice, as far as I understand, especially women).

I guess I just wondering why you or I must necessarily have to accept how homosexual people define the conversation? I admit that I see a great deal of ground given up in the dialogue by assumping these categories as essential distinctions. Are you agreeing with them and if you are, why?

Why is it that this one distinction in 'sexual preference' makes such a distinction between men? A understand if you have been taught in modern parlance this distinction and from that you have to desire to defend an individuals 'right' to be loved but before we get that that a priori presumption convince me that it is right.

I am not actually defending anyone's rights. I am simply for such a situation where homosexual men and women are treated exactly like heterosexual men and women and are given an OPPORTUNITY to live together in the state of monogamous, committed, lifelong union, intellectual, emotional, and physical, and this union is blessed by the Church.

Again you presume that there are such a thing as homosexual men and women and other than the argument that 'they define themselves as such' I don't see any reason to agree with the distinction. If such as distinction doesn't actually exist then we'd have to agree that they are simply individuals who are arguing for not only tolerance of their abnormal appetites but acceptance as such as equal to the normative appetite. I'm simply don't see on what grounds such acceptance is merited. I don't think the Church has a real problem with committed, lifelong, intellectual, emotional relationships... but it's the physical that we are honestly discussing. So why don't we focus on that?
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« Reply #676 on: November 06, 2009, 04:53:08 PM »

I have been trying to keep out of this since it's not really my cabbage patch (and, like Papist, I am looking in from the outside). Heorhji, you know that I am very glad to belong to a Church that blesses homosexual unions, so you will understand I'm not in disagreement with your intent. I do have a question about your argument, though.

Much of what you say seems to hinge on the argument that homosexuals cannot 'choose' their inclination. I'm sure this is true of many people (I know some people who would feel physically ill, even violated, at the idea of physical relations with the opposite sex). But it is not true of all people who are attracted to the same sex. What would your argument be for someone who was attracted to the same sex 90% of the time? Should they seek out the remaining 10% of the opposite sex and hope to find a partner there? What about someone who is 50/50?

I ask because I think the argument that there are people who have no choice is difficult to defend, and this is one of its weak points.
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« Reply #677 on: November 06, 2009, 05:09:53 PM »

Much of what you say seems to hinge on the argument that homosexuals cannot 'choose' their inclination. I'm sure this is true of many people (I know some people who would feel physically ill, even violated, at the idea of physical relations with the opposite sex). But it is not true of all people who are attracted to the same sex. What would your argument be for someone who was attracted to the same sex 90% of the time? Should they seek out the remaining 10% of the opposite sex and hope to find a partner there? What about someone who is 50/50?

I ask because I think the argument that there are people who have no choice is difficult to defend, and this is one of its weak points.

Yes, good point. FWIW, it seems to me that there is a continuum and while some people are at one side or the other, many people fall in between.

I also think that it is a weak point because other people, with other attractions, could say that they too were born that way. Or we could make an argument from science that promiscuity or having many females to one male is the best for the species.

So why monogamy of any kind at all?
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« Reply #678 on: November 06, 2009, 05:16:24 PM »

Much of what you say seems to hinge on the argument that homosexuals cannot 'choose' their inclination. I'm sure this is true of many people (I know some people who would feel physically ill, even violated, at the idea of physical relations with the opposite sex). But it is not true of all people who are attracted to the same sex. What would your argument be for someone who was attracted to the same sex 90% of the time? Should they seek out the remaining 10% of the opposite sex and hope to find a partner there? What about someone who is 50/50?

I ask because I think the argument that there are people who have no choice is difficult to defend, and this is one of its weak points.

Yes, good point. FWIW, it seems to me that there is a continuum and while some people are at one side or the other, many people fall in between.

I also think that it is a weak point because other people, with other attractions, could say that they too were born that way. Or we could make an argument from science that promiscuity or having many females to one male is the best for the species.

So why monogamy of any kind at all?

Well, I think monogamy is wonderful, very natural, and, frankly, I have not seen polyamorous relationships to work. But yes, exactly.
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« Reply #679 on: November 06, 2009, 05:25:12 PM »

Heorhij,  I've been trying to stay out of this discussion since we certainly don't need yet one more yahoo like myself offering his opinion--if you really want to know, send me a PM--to the already boiling mix.  I would like to ask you a question, though.  What are your criteria for determining that gay marriage and straight marriage are really no different from each other?

If they are both loving, committed unions of the two persons who are unique one for the other, and they are the way of life where the two people assist each other in theosis - then I do not see any difference.
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« Reply #680 on: November 06, 2009, 05:42:45 PM »

I have been trying to keep out of this since it's not really my cabbage patch (and, like Papist, I am looking in from the outside). Heorhji, you know that I am very glad to belong to a Church that blesses homosexual unions, so you will understand I'm not in disagreement with your intent. I do have a question about your argument, though.

Much of what you say seems to hinge on the argument that homosexuals cannot 'choose' their inclination. I'm sure this is true of many people (I know some people who would feel physically ill, even violated, at the idea of physical relations with the opposite sex). But it is not true of all people who are attracted to the same sex. What would your argument be for someone who was attracted to the same sex 90% of the time? Should they seek out the remaining 10% of the opposite sex and hope to find a partner there? What about someone who is 50/50?

I ask because I think the argument that there are people who have no choice is difficult to defend, and this is one of its weak points.

Thanks for asking, Liz.

I will just tell you what I heard from one of my online friends, Andrei K. from the Ukrainian forum, "Maidan." He identifies himself as 100% gay, and he has many friends who are also 100% gay or lesbian. His partner is also 100% gay. Andrei does not believe in "true bisexuality," actually thinking that people who say that they can "swing both ways" either pretend to be straight, while being gay, or pretend to be gay, while being straight. He thinks that this is very wrong and that these people are simply undisciplined erotomaniacs who lack self-control.

Now, there certainly are people who experienced homosexual urges in their childhood and adolescence, but then evolved into heterosexuals, and people who experienced "straight" urges in their youth, but somehow became homosexuals. It's a complicated thing - it's all this mysterious, awesome human brain. But still, perhaps by the time when a young man or woman is in his or her early 20-s, everything is settled and cannot be changed: gays become gays and remain gays, straights become straights and remain straights.

Some gay men are capable of sexually "performing" with women (and even have families, children, like these two poor guys in the movie "Brockeback Mountain"), but that does not grow in them in a more multi-faceted, committed, truly loving relation with a woman. Also there are straight men who can perform anal sex with another male, just to satisfy their animal lust, like it happens in prisons. But that, again, has nothing to do with homosexuality or heterosexuality. Like Morgan Freeman's hero said in the film called "Shawshank Redemption," "to be a homosexual, you first have to be human, and these beasts aren't."

As for women, I personally know one woman who lives in Seattle and who "experimented" in her youth with female partners. But when she became older - in her late 20-s - she finally understood that all that was fake. She met a young man and they married, and, as far as I know, they are still together (about 11 years). On the other hand, there are many women who, like you say, cannot even think about being with a man without total disgust. "Intermediates" among women - again, I honestly do not know. I will ask Andrei, he is my reference in these issues.
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« Reply #681 on: November 06, 2009, 05:49:46 PM »

So what I you seem to be saying now is that it is actually more complicated than "they were born that way"?

Should only people who self-identify as "I was born that way" be eligible for these unions? Or should others of different proclivities be able to form unions in whatever way they wish? If not, why not?
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« Reply #682 on: November 06, 2009, 06:02:09 PM »

So what I you seem to be saying now is that it is actually more complicated than "they were born that way"?

No, I do believe that "they" (homosexuals) WERE "born that way." It's just that the expression of their homosexuality could have been delayed. But it's inevitable. (Again, I am saying it because THEY say it.)

Should only people who self-identify as "I was born that way" be eligible for these unions? Or should others of different proclivities be able to form unions in whatever way they wish? If not, why not?

There are NO "different proclivities" in adult people. Again, if a straight male can do another male you know where, says NOTHING about that man's homo- or heterosexuality, or about some sort of "partial homosexuality," if this is done in a prison cell to satisfy lust. It only says that that man is a beast. Also, if a gay man can close his eyes and do his wife, dreaming about his boyfriend - that also does not say anything about his "partial heterosexuality."
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« Reply #683 on: November 06, 2009, 06:13:45 PM »

So what I you seem to be saying now is that it is actually more complicated than "they were born that way"?

No, I do believe that "they" (homosexuals) WERE "born that way." It's just that the expression of their homosexuality could have been delayed. But it's inevitable. (Again, I am saying it because THEY say it.)

Should only people who self-identify as "I was born that way" be eligible for these unions? Or should others of different proclivities be able to form unions in whatever way they wish? If not, why not?

There are NO "different proclivities" in adult people. Again, if a straight male can do another male you know where, says NOTHING about that man's homo- or heterosexuality, or about some sort of "partial homosexuality," if this is done in a prison cell to satisfy lust. It only says that that man is a beast. Also, if a gay man can close his eyes and do his wife, dreaming about his boyfriend - that also does not say anything about his "partial heterosexuality."

I can't agree. I certainly agree that sex with one gender or the other does not define one's sexuality. But, I think there are certainly people who are attracted (more or less often) to members of both sexes. Why do you think this is not possible? Is it only from speaking to homosexuals who are adamant that they are never attracted to the opposite sex?
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« Reply #684 on: November 06, 2009, 06:20:59 PM »

So what I you seem to be saying now is that it is actually more complicated than "they were born that way"?

No, I do believe that "they" (homosexuals) WERE "born that way." It's just that the expression of their homosexuality could have been delayed. But it's inevitable. (Again, I am saying it because THEY say it.)

Should only people who self-identify as "I was born that way" be eligible for these unions? Or should others of different proclivities be able to form unions in whatever way they wish? If not, why not?

There are NO "different proclivities" in adult people. Again, if a straight male can do another male you know where, says NOTHING about that man's homo- or heterosexuality, or about some sort of "partial homosexuality," if this is done in a prison cell to satisfy lust. It only says that that man is a beast. Also, if a gay man can close his eyes and do his wife, dreaming about his boyfriend - that also does not say anything about his "partial heterosexuality."

I can't agree. I certainly agree that sex with one gender or the other does not define one's sexuality. But, I think there are certainly people who are attracted (more or less often) to members of both sexes. Why do you think this is not possible? Is it only from speaking to homosexuals who are adamant that they are never attracted to the opposite sex?

Yes, that's based on what I hear from them. They admit that what you are descibing exists, but it is very rare. On the other hand, homosexuals who are "pure" homosexuals are not rare, it's perhaps several percent of us.
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« Reply #685 on: November 06, 2009, 06:25:51 PM »

So what I you seem to be saying now is that it is actually more complicated than "they were born that way"?

No, I do believe that "they" (homosexuals) WERE "born that way." It's just that the expression of their homosexuality could have been delayed. But it's inevitable. (Again, I am saying it because THEY say it.)

Should only people who self-identify as "I was born that way" be eligible for these unions? Or should others of different proclivities be able to form unions in whatever way they wish? If not, why not?

There are NO "different proclivities" in adult people. Again, if a straight male can do another male you know where, says NOTHING about that man's homo- or heterosexuality, or about some sort of "partial homosexuality," if this is done in a prison cell to satisfy lust. It only says that that man is a beast. Also, if a gay man can close his eyes and do his wife, dreaming about his boyfriend - that also does not say anything about his "partial heterosexuality."

I can't agree. I certainly agree that sex with one gender or the other does not define one's sexuality. But, I think there are certainly people who are attracted (more or less often) to members of both sexes. Why do you think this is not possible? Is it only from speaking to homosexuals who are adamant that they are never attracted to the opposite sex?

Yes, that's based on what I hear from them. They admit that what you are descibing exists, but it is very rare. On the other hand, homosexuals who are "pure" homosexuals are not rare, it's perhaps several percent of us.

Well, ok, what would you like the remaining few percent to do? Are they required to make heterosexual marriages?

I have to say I am dubious. I know some people who are very much hetero- or homosexual. But I also know many people who are neither. It's remarkable how many people who are 'straight' will find that they are, in fact, attracted to one or two members of their own gender.
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« Reply #686 on: November 06, 2009, 06:41:01 PM »

So what I you seem to be saying now is that it is actually more complicated than "they were born that way"?

No, I do believe that "they" (homosexuals) WERE "born that way." It's just that the expression of their homosexuality could have been delayed. But it's inevitable. (Again, I am saying it because THEY say it.)

Should only people who self-identify as "I was born that way" be eligible for these unions? Or should others of different proclivities be able to form unions in whatever way they wish? If not, why not?

There are NO "different proclivities" in adult people. Again, if a straight male can do another male you know where, says NOTHING about that man's homo- or heterosexuality, or about some sort of "partial homosexuality," if this is done in a prison cell to satisfy lust. It only says that that man is a beast. Also, if a gay man can close his eyes and do his wife, dreaming about his boyfriend - that also does not say anything about his "partial heterosexuality."

I can't agree. I certainly agree that sex with one gender or the other does not define one's sexuality. But, I think there are certainly people who are attracted (more or less often) to members of both sexes. Why do you think this is not possible? Is it only from speaking to homosexuals who are adamant that they are never attracted to the opposite sex?

Yes, that's based on what I hear from them. They admit that what you are descibing exists, but it is very rare. On the other hand, homosexuals who are "pure" homosexuals are not rare, it's perhaps several percent of us.

Well, ok, what would you like the remaining few percent to do? Are they required to make heterosexual marriages?

I have to say I am dubious. I know some people who are very much hetero- or homosexual. But I also know many people who are neither. It's remarkable how many people who are 'straight' will find that they are, in fact, attracted to one or two members of their own gender.

I believe nobody is "required" to marry. If a person desires to marry and finds another person who wants to marry him/her, then that person should marry.

The people who are "neither" might be paraphiliacs. Whom they should marry and whether they should marry, I do not know. What I seem to understand if that if a person is "truly" gay, that person should not marry a person of the opposite gender, because it will be hell on earth for both of them and also perhaps for their children.

There are fake "marriages," of course, and some of them are "marriages" of convenience for both parties. Sviatoslav Richter, the great (maybe the greatest) pianist of the 20-th century, was "as gay as it gets," but he "married" a woman, also a musician. "Slava's" friends (one of whom happened to be one of my classmates' mother) knew about it very well, and there were always plenty of good-hearted jokes about this "marriage."
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« Reply #687 on: November 06, 2009, 06:48:52 PM »

Sorry, what is a paraphilac?
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« Reply #688 on: November 06, 2009, 06:58:14 PM »

Sorry, what is a paraphilac?

A person who cannot be sexually aroused by "conventional" sexual triggers (the presence of a person of another gender or of the same gender, the visual image of that person's "forms," the touching, the smell, etc.). Paraphiliacs have a generally weakened arousal, and if they can be aroused at all, what arouses them is something peculiar for just their mind. It may be dreamings about certain activities, objects, situations, etc. etc. etc. Fetishists can be paraphiliacs and vice versa.
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« Reply #689 on: November 06, 2009, 07:17:58 PM »


I have to say I am dubious. I know some people who are very much hetero- or homosexual. But I also know many people who are neither. It's remarkable how many people who are 'straight' will find that they are, in fact, attracted to one or two members of their own gender.

Not to sound judgemental....although this will....people who are so busy wondering about "attractions" apparently have nothing better to do with their time.

Someone who is busy worrying about how to put food on the table, pay the bills, or survive from day to day...is hardly worrying about getting it "on" tonight.
Someone who is busy volunteering, and working with the homeless; someone who is out preaching the Word, etc...is too busy and too tired to think of sex.

I think there is simply too much emphasis on "sex" in today's society.

One can live very happily without it....and all these "gay pride" parades and rallies.... are only putting "sex" even more in the media and in the mainstream.
This is what our kids are hearing and seeing. 

Shame on people for not being embarrassed to openly discuss their "sexuality" - gay or otherwise.  Sex is something sacred, at least it should be.  Today it's not sacred, at all. It's commonplace.   

We've made it such a "non-issue"....and then we are surprised when we hear that a 10 year old boy raped a 6 year old girl.  Well, why not?  Love is good.  It's all the grown ups seem to talk about.

Again, I am truly, truly sorry for all the folks out there who feel "incomplete", and are in want of partnership.  However, we need to deemphasize human carnal desires.

May God help us all refocus our lives onto what is truly important to our eternal Salvation.

Lord, have mercy!

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« Reply #690 on: November 06, 2009, 07:27:39 PM »

Again, I am truly, truly sorry for all the folks out there who feel "incomplete", and are in want of partnership.  However, we need to deemphasize human carnal desires.

Agreed, but the whole point is, being homosexual is not just having particular carnal desires...
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« Reply #691 on: November 06, 2009, 07:31:18 PM »


I have to say I am dubious. I know some people who are very much hetero- or homosexual. But I also know many people who are neither. It's remarkable how many people who are 'straight' will find that they are, in fact, attracted to one or two members of their own gender.

Not to sound judgemental....although this will....people who are so busy wondering about "attractions" apparently have nothing better to do with their time.

I think attraction is something that happens without you thinking about it. For example, I know someone who was considering monasticism, but who found attraction to someone else got in the way and made it clear that the monastic life was not in fact right.

Quote
Someone who is busy worrying about how to put food on the table, pay the bills, or survive from day to day...is hardly worrying about getting it "on" tonight.
Someone who is busy volunteering, and working with the homeless; someone who is out preaching the Word, etc...is too busy and too tired to think of sex.

I think there is simply too much emphasis on "sex" in today's society.

One can live very happily without it....and all these "gay pride" parades and rallies.... are only putting "sex" even more in the media and in the mainstream.
This is what our kids are hearing and seeing. 

Shame on people for not being embarrassed to openly discuss their "sexuality" - gay or otherwise.  Sex is something sacred, at least it should be.  Today it's not sacred, at all. It's commonplace.   

We've made it such a "non-issue"....and then we are surprised when we hear that a 10 year old boy raped a 6 year old girl.  Well, why not?  Love is good.  It's all the grown ups seem to talk about.

Again, I am truly, truly sorry for all the folks out there who feel "incomplete", and are in want of partnership.  However, we need to deemphasize human carnal desires.

May God help us all refocus our lives onto what is truly important to our eternal Salvation.

Lord, have mercy!



It seems to me that there is a great deal of emphasis on sex on this forum. My main point was not to do with the act of sex itself, but to do with attraction to (and love for) people of our own gender. That was something you brought to the table, in order to say that there is too much emphasis on sex. Perhaps if we did not look for 'sex' every time love and attraction were mentioned, there would not be this problem?

When I was growing up, I was taught that love was a thing shared between people. Not necessarily couples (gay or straight), but people. Now you are saying that one can understand a rape because 'Love is good'.

I am sorry, but I think this a perversion far more serious than the gender of participants within a sexual act.
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« Reply #692 on: November 06, 2009, 07:35:30 PM »


I am just saying that we have advertised and talked about sex so much...that our kids don't think it's "wrong".  It's just something adults do....and all kids want to be "adults".

That's my concern.

As for the loving relationship between people, same gender or not...that's wonderful...go for it...

There is nothing more rewarding than a best friend.  Someone to share your burdens with, someone who understands you.

Friendship is a wonderful gift!

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« Reply #693 on: November 06, 2009, 07:50:38 PM »


I am just saying that we have advertised and talked about sex so much...that our kids don't think it's "wrong".  It's just something adults do....and all kids want to be "adults".

That's my concern.

As for the loving relationship between people, same gender or not...that's wonderful...go for it...

There is nothing more rewarding than a best friend.  Someone to share your burdens with, someone who understands you.

Friendship is a wonderful gift!



Ah, forgive me for misunderstanding! I am worried about this presence in the media too. Particularly the way that women and men are presented, as if they are almost of different species and can only understand each other in a highly sexualized way. It is very sad and wrong. This is a different thread, so I won't carry on - but I should have realized what you were trying to say.
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« Reply #694 on: November 06, 2009, 08:05:04 PM »


I am just saying that we have advertised and talked about sex so much...that our kids don't think it's "wrong".

You mean, some children today may grow up not knowing shame and guilt about that which is at the very essence of who we are as a sexually reproducing species? How terrible...clearly the fall of civilization is upon us.
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« Reply #695 on: November 06, 2009, 08:09:03 PM »


The key word in your statement is "grow up".

I don't think teenagers are grownup.  I don't find it "appropriate" when first-graders are pairing up and calling each other boyfriend/girlfriend...and their mom's think it's cute.
I don't find it "appropriate" that 5th graders are smooching in the hallways.

I don't want to digress from the OP so I won't say more.
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« Reply #696 on: November 06, 2009, 08:40:49 PM »


I am just saying that we have advertised and talked about sex so much...that our kids don't think it's "wrong".

You mean, some children today may grow up not knowing shame and guilt about that which is at the very essence of who we are as a sexually reproducing species? How terrible...clearly the fall of civilization is upon us.

Where did I mention shame, or guilt? I was aware of sex in a blurry way as a child, and I was certainly aware of attraction as children usually are. I certainly had very tender feelings towards a friend when I was all of 5! But I think a lot of images and descriptions in the media of men and women are not natural at all, nor do they promote a healthy, respectful attitude towards sex. For example, teen magazines run articles that focus on creating a false image so that members of the opposite sex will be attracted. There are discussions about how to 'make' your boyfriend act in a certain way, and rules about 'how long you should wait'. The implication is that any genuine, loving relationship between men and women is an illusion, and that sex is the ultimate tie that binds. If you don't see that this is both slightly sordid, and very strange, then I suggest you consider how you might feel growing up with the idea that women's natural position is to pose naked on page 3, while simultaneously faking enjoyment in sex in order to please a wide array of men.
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« Reply #697 on: November 07, 2009, 01:30:36 AM »

You mean, some children today may grow up not knowing shame and guilt about that which is at the very essence of who we are as a sexually reproducing species? How terrible...clearly the fall of civilization is upon us.

Grace and Peace,

Your view of the Christian teaching of eros is blinded by the same log which obscured Nietzsche's. You would be well served perhaps reading Deus Caritas Est and enter into a more mature understanding of the Christian understanding of love.
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« Reply #698 on: November 07, 2009, 12:21:54 PM »

Perhaps you see an important distinction here, but I'm afraid I see, "I don't encourage anyone to take poison, I just encourage the Church to tell them to take poison." as a distinction without a difference.

No. I just encourage the Church to stop looking at a committed, loving, monogamous, lifelong marital union of two men or two women as a poison, because it is the same as your union with your wife or my union with mine. That's all.

Brother,

Perhaps the Church looks and sees attached, lusting, monogamous, lifelong bondage to sin between two men or two women that foreshadows moral decline and social illness? Is that possible?

If you are a priori convinced that it is, then it is, according to you.

So, if I could show you that 'every' major religion saw such behavior as perverse and unnatural you would still argue that it is an a priori presumption according to 'me'?

Not you personally, but perhaps a heterosexual majority in each of these so-called "major religions."

I have heard estimates that nearly half of Roman Catholic Priests are Homosexual....  Just goes to show ya.

But that is NEVER counted in the secular Gay movement. It leads me to suspect that the goal of that movement has a lot to do with a particular lisivious life-style and not  Homosexuality itself. You must be Homosexual AND subscribe to a particular Gay Life-style. 
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« Reply #699 on: November 07, 2009, 01:21:42 PM »


I am just saying that we have advertised and talked about sex so much...that our kids don't think it's "wrong".

You mean, some children today may grow up not knowing shame and guilt about that which is at the very essence of who we are as a sexually reproducing species? How terrible...clearly the fall of civilization is upon us.

The reason for monasticism: witness to the fact of the essence of a person in and of himself.  After all, you haven't reproduced: are you not a person?

When they grow up, like 5th grade, they start following Clinton's lead and the boys expect a Monica act at the drop of a hat.  No reproducing there, but a lot of build up of mentality that will do them SOOOO well (dripping sarcasm nearly short-circuiting the computer) in an adult relationship like marriage in which to raise kids.  Union based on sexual favors, Yeah that works well.
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« Reply #700 on: November 07, 2009, 01:25:33 PM »

they start following Clinton's lead

Sex & politics eh?
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« Reply #701 on: November 07, 2009, 02:02:04 PM »

Grace and Peace,

Ultimately this is a discussion of the passions and their reign over the flesh in these last days amongst a world whom revels in their bondage in them. It is proper I suppose to dress them up a bit to make them presentable in the daylight as many have done but in the end we are still discussing simply sexual acts which bear no fruit and have no capacity to bear fruit but that of self gradification and the pair-bonding of two of the same sex in it's most crude and animalistic fashion. It is a shame that the Sacred Text holds such little sway over our disscusion and our hearts to see with clarity on this topic. The weight of the world's opinions are heavily upon us here and we feebly make our case against it. I know my own sin in the flesh charges me with hypocracy to bear this topic with greater zeal as that zeal also condemns me and we know we will be judged in like manner as those whom we cast judgment.

With all that said the wisdom of our Faith councils us against such acceptance in the most strict of terms. 'Let not these sins be among you' and I am quieted in the shame of one knows how far we have fallen. As 'heterosexuals' we have played our part in decoupling sexual relations from that of the marriage vow. We have made it a 'right' to pursuit our pleasures in the public square. I understand our oversimulate society has weighed heavily on those who have sought pleasures in the must crude of fashion and now we find themselves bound. How are we address them? How are we to show them the Way and yet we ourselves, like the Pharisees, do not walk it path? It is sad and disappointing but I am very glad that our brother brough this topic up for discussion. It has allowed me to turn that Light of Faith inward and see how my sins have played a roll in all this.
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« Reply #702 on: November 07, 2009, 05:25:22 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.
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« Reply #703 on: November 07, 2009, 06:02:29 PM »

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package.

I'm staying out of the argument.  However, it is not a reasonable part of the preparation for a married priest to delve deeply into the question of remarriage; on the one hand, if the marriage dissolves via divorce, then the divorce itself may be cause for defrocking/deposing the priest; OTOH, no one can or should expect their spouse to die at a young age.  Putting the rather flippant treatment of the subject matter aside, the question of remarriage of a widower is still a debated subject (even if the Church herself is not engaging in the debate), and it is still a matter which should be treated tenderly.  While I firmly believe that the question is closed (and if, God forbid, I am placed into that situation, I rather doubt my opinion will change on the matter), treating it as if it is somehow another line item on the job description is disrespectful, IMO.
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« Reply #704 on: November 07, 2009, 06:10:48 PM »

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package.

I'm staying out of the argument.  However, it is not a reasonable part of the preparation for a married priest to delve deeply into the question of remarriage; on the one hand, if the marriage dissolves via divorce, then the divorce itself may be cause for defrocking/deposing the priest; OTOH, no one can or should expect their spouse to die at a young age.  Putting the rather flippant treatment of the subject matter aside, the question of remarriage of a widower is still a debated subject (even if the Church herself is not engaging in the debate), and it is still a matter which should be treated tenderly.  While I firmly believe that the question is closed (and if, God forbid, I am placed into that situation, I rather doubt my opinion will change on the matter), treating it as if it is somehow another line item on the job description is disrespectful, IMO.

I apologize if my comment came across as flippant. It was not my intent. I viewed it as a discussion where people discuss their opinions freely. There are plenty of comments on this thread which I find offensive. I don't see what I've posted to be disrespectful.
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« Reply #705 on: November 07, 2009, 10:29:12 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.
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« Reply #706 on: November 07, 2009, 10:41:07 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.

I was simply judging from the hundreds of gay men and women I know. I have yet to hear even a second hand account directly of any sort of successful transformation. I've known plenty who have tried. I don't understand why some think it is better for force someone through social pressures into marrying someone they are not compatible with. In the end, the relationship ends in divorce, lives are shattered, and frequently children are brought in to the marriage in some effort for someone to try and cure themselves of homosexuality.
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« Reply #707 on: November 07, 2009, 10:52:45 PM »

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package.

I'm staying out of the argument.  However, it is not a reasonable part of the preparation for a married priest to delve deeply into the question of remarriage; on the one hand, if the marriage dissolves via divorce, then the divorce itself may be cause for defrocking/deposing the priest; OTOH, no one can or should expect their spouse to die at a young age.  Putting the rather flippant treatment of the subject matter aside, the question of remarriage of a widower is still a debated subject (even if the Church herself is not engaging in the debate), and it is still a matter which should be treated tenderly.  While I firmly believe that the question is closed (and if, God forbid, I am placed into that situation, I rather doubt my opinion will change on the matter), treating it as if it is somehow another line item on the job description is disrespectful, IMO.

I am sorry, I completely lost track. Fr. George, forgive me, but I can't get rid of Hamlet's "words, words, words." What is this whole thread about? Could we please get back on track?
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« Reply #708 on: November 07, 2009, 10:58:39 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.

I was simply judging from the hundreds of gay men and women I know. I have yet to hear even a second hand account directly of any sort of successful transformation. I've known plenty who have tried. I don't understand why some think it is better for force someone through social pressures into marrying someone they are not compatible with. In the end, the relationship ends in divorce, lives are shattered, and frequently children are brought in to the marriage in some effort for someone to try and cure themselves of homosexuality.

Grace and Peace,

One of my friends was a very vocal lesbian throughout college and after a few years after graduation she met a guy, got married and now as two kids and another on the way. I haven't actual brought up the question to ask her what happened out of respect but she is a good friend that I could ask.
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« Reply #709 on: November 07, 2009, 11:05:03 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.

I was simply judging from the hundreds of gay men and women I know. I have yet to hear even a second hand account directly of any sort of successful transformation. I've known plenty who have tried. I don't understand why some think it is better for force someone through social pressures into marrying someone they are not compatible with. In the end, the relationship ends in divorce, lives are shattered, and frequently children are brought in to the marriage in some effort for someone to try and cure themselves of homosexuality.

Grace and Peace,

One of my friends was a very vocal lesbian throughout college and after a few years after graduation she met a guy, got married and now as two kids and another on the way. I haven't actual brought up the question to ask her what happened out of respect but she is a good friend that I could ask.

Of course, that happens. I have a good friend who was exactly like the person you mention. She grew up in an extremely conservative, oppressive family, then moved to Seattle of the 1970-s - 1980-s where she lived as a hippie, experimented with girls, and made up an idea that she was a "lesbian." Later, however, she met a good man, and married him and is happy with him to this day, as far as I know. And there are perhaps thousands of woman (and maybe also men) like her - but what does it prove? That homosexuals do not exist?
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« Reply #710 on: November 08, 2009, 12:51:15 AM »

Of course, that happens. I have a good friend who was exactly like the person you mention. She grew up in an extremely conservative, oppressive family, then moved to Seattle of the 1970-s - 1980-s where she lived as a hippie, experimented with girls, and made up an idea that she was a "lesbian." Later, however, she met a good man, and married him and is happy with him to this day, as far as I know. And there are perhaps thousands of woman (and maybe also men) like her - but what does it prove? That homosexuals do not exist?

like I said, you've given us no reason to recognize the distinction outside of an individuals need to obfuscate an abnormal use of the sexual organs for self gratification and the mistaking after effect of pair-bonding of individuals of the same sex.
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« Reply #711 on: November 08, 2009, 06:13:00 PM »

like I said, you've given us no reason to recognize the distinction outside of an individuals need to obfuscate an abnormal use of the sexual organs for self gratification
Oh I think he has. Heorhij is focusing on loving relationships- not what people's genitals are doing.

and the mistaking after effect of pair-bonding of individuals of the same sex.
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Love is a power so fierce and tender,
Flies on its own sweet wing,
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« Reply #712 on: November 08, 2009, 06:34:09 PM »

The verse from last Sunday's Gospel keeps coming to mind...they have ears to hear but hear not..they have eyes but seen not... and again today ..they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them...
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« Reply #713 on: November 08, 2009, 07:20:53 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.

I was simply judging from the hundreds of gay men and women I know. I have yet to hear even a second hand account directly of any sort of successful transformation. I've known plenty who have tried. I don't understand why some think it is better for force someone through social pressures into marrying someone they are not compatible with. In the end, the relationship ends in divorce, lives are shattered, and frequently children are brought in to the marriage in some effort for someone to try and cure themselves of homosexuality.

Perhaps you have bought into the idea that being Gay makes you a different type of person instead of the matter being about sex. If it's just about sex, people can get creative and perhaps then have a family if they desire one..

The current Gay movement is about just one way of interpreting Homosexuality and one sort of life style and one sort of analysis of the situation.. It's simply not universally applicable.
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« Reply #714 on: November 08, 2009, 08:08:23 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.

I was simply judging from the hundreds of gay men and women I know. I have yet to hear even a second hand account directly of any sort of successful transformation. I've known plenty who have tried. I don't understand why some think it is better for force someone through social pressures into marrying someone they are not compatible with. In the end, the relationship ends in divorce, lives are shattered, and frequently children are brought in to the marriage in some effort for someone to try and cure themselves of homosexuality.

Perhaps you have bought into the idea that being Gay makes you a different type of person instead of the matter being about sex. If it's just about sex, people can get creative and perhaps then have a family if they desire one..

The current Gay movement is about just one way of interpreting Homosexuality and one sort of life style and one sort of analysis of the situation.. It's simply not universally applicable.

I haven't "bought" into anything. I am gay and know first hand what it is like. Being gay is a small part of who I am as a person. Personally, I live a celibate life. It is not for everyone, and maybe not even for me. I'm sorry if this is TMI for some. I say it in order to give context to my statements. I do believe gays should be able to marry. Call it civil union if necessary (although that may lead to claims of separate but equal) but people should be able to marry the one they love and also receive the benefits of having their relationship recognized, such as tax breaks.
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« Reply #715 on: November 08, 2009, 08:25:33 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.

This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.

I was simply judging from the hundreds of gay men and women I know. I have yet to hear even a second hand account directly of any sort of successful transformation. I've known plenty who have tried. I don't understand why some think it is better for force someone through social pressures into marrying someone they are not compatible with. In the end, the relationship ends in divorce, lives are shattered, and frequently children are brought in to the marriage in some effort for someone to try and cure themselves of homosexuality.

Perhaps you have bought into the idea that being Gay makes you a different type of person instead of the matter being about sex. If it's just about sex, people can get creative and perhaps then have a family if they desire one..

The current Gay movement is about just one way of interpreting Homosexuality and one sort of life style and one sort of analysis of the situation.. It's simply not universally applicable.

I haven't "bought" into anything. I am gay and know first hand what it is like. Being gay is a small part of who I am as a person. Personally, I live a celibate life. It is not for everyone, and maybe not even for me. I'm sorry if this is TMI for some. I say it in order to give context to my statements. I do believe gays should be able to marry. Call it civil union if necessary (although that may lead to claims of separate but equal) but people should be able to marry the one they love and also receive the benefits of having their relationship recognized, such as tax breaks.

Dear Marat,

I am absolutely with you, but I am not satisfied by just "civil unions." I do very, very strongly believe that gay people who really believe that Orthodoxy is the true Christian faith must have the chance, the opportunity, the option to MARRY in the Orthodox Church, receive Her blessing to live the life of married people, with everything that applies to married people - monogamy, chastity (i.e. not extending one's sexual desires outside of one's only, one, lifelong partner), lifelong commitment, and, most importantly, the mutual assistance of the two married individuals in theosis.

There is NO WAY this will not happen. It WILL. People learn. The Church learns. May She be blessed forever and may She be as kind and understanding and generous and loving as I believe Her to be, ever.
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Marc1152
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« Reply #716 on: November 08, 2009, 08:31:04 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.


This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.

I was simply judging from the hundreds of gay men and women I know. I have yet to hear even a second hand account directly of any sort of successful transformation. I've known plenty who have tried. I don't understand why some think it is better for force someone through social pressures into marrying someone they are not compatible with. In the end, the relationship ends in divorce, lives are shattered, and frequently children are brought in to the marriage in some effort for someone to try and cure themselves of homosexuality.

Perhaps you have bought into the idea that being Gay makes you a different type of person instead of the matter being about sex. If it's just about sex, people can get creative and perhaps then have a family if they desire one..

The current Gay movement is about just one way of interpreting Homosexuality and one sort of life style and one sort of analysis of the situation.. It's simply not universally applicable.

I haven't "bought" into anything. I am gay and know first hand what it is like. Being gay is a small part of who I am as a person. Personally, I live a celibate life. It is not for everyone, and maybe not even for me. I'm sorry if this is TMI for some. I say it in order to give context to my statements. I do believe gays should be able to marry. Call it civil union if necessary (although that may lead to claims of separate but equal) but people should be able to marry the one they love and also receive the benefits of having their relationship recognized, such as tax breaks.

I don't mean to be flippent but as I said before, you are free to marry any woman who will have you. There are many examples of Gay men getting married and having a family. Here is a hint why. The blessing of having your own children far out weighs most anything else.


All the civil protections you are asking for are fair and I would be for them. Those protections come with Marriage but that is not the point. The union of two people of the same sex is not marriage. This is fast becoming nonnegotiable. The Gay movement may lose much of the progress it has fairly won over the years by insisting that society adopt a fiction.

I tell my Gay brother, "If you don't like having sex with women, just get married" Smiley
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 08:36:47 PM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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« Reply #717 on: November 08, 2009, 08:42:52 PM »

Why would I want to marry someone I don't love? I'm free to marry any woman who will have me. It makes no sense to me. And it sure isn't fair to the innocent woman for me to use her in some experiment of attempted heterosexuality. As far as kids, I don't want any. I enjoy children but have absolutely no desire to have my own. That benefit does nothing for me.

I don't believe the gay movement (whatever that is) is going to lose this battle. It is simply a matter of time. The younger generation is rather supportive. As they age and people continue to become more accepting with each generation, full marriage rights will happen for homosexuals. It is inevitable. Vocally pressing for rights is the only way anything will be accomplished. People seem to think we should just sit on our hands and wait for someone to throw us a bone. Those bones are never coming.
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Liz
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« Reply #718 on: November 08, 2009, 08:45:11 PM »

What is the difference between the gay Orthodox and the widowed priest or my fellow parishoner? None of them has a 'chance'. All they have is choice, a simple one for all its difficulty in practice--they can accept the teaching of the Church and work on embracing celibacy, or they can reject it and do what they want. That's not dehumanizing. That's the same choice that every human being since Adam has faced every moment of their life.


This is not an accurate comparison. First, the priest chose to become a priest. Not being allowed to remarry is part of the package. I have yet to meet any gay man or woman who chose to be gay.

Second, both the priest and the parishioner were allowed to marry (and did in this example) where the gay man or woman was forbidden.

That is simply not true.. Many women who find themselves single into middle age and beyond form lesbian relationships as a practical alternative.

There are also plenty of Gay men who decide to drop it and get married. I know a fellow who is a former "Mr.Gay  Maryland" who simply decided to make a change. He married a big beautiful Irish Woman and is happily ensconsed with kids and wife. Ive known several guys with similar stories.

These things are not as neat and tidy as the politically correct myths would dictate.

I was simply judging from the hundreds of gay men and women I know. I have yet to hear even a second hand account directly of any sort of successful transformation. I've known plenty who have tried. I don't understand why some think it is better for force someone through social pressures into marrying someone they are not compatible with. In the end, the relationship ends in divorce, lives are shattered, and frequently children are brought in to the marriage in some effort for someone to try and cure themselves of homosexuality.

Perhaps you have bought into the idea that being Gay makes you a different type of person instead of the matter being about sex. If it's just about sex, people can get creative and perhaps then have a family if they desire one..

The current Gay movement is about just one way of interpreting Homosexuality and one sort of life style and one sort of analysis of the situation.. It's simply not universally applicable.

I haven't "bought" into anything. I am gay and know first hand what it is like. Being gay is a small part of who I am as a person. Personally, I live a celibate life. It is not for everyone, and maybe not even for me. I'm sorry if this is TMI for some. I say it in order to give context to my statements. I do believe gays should be able to marry. Call it civil union if necessary (although that may lead to claims of separate but equal) but people should be able to marry the one they love and also receive the benefits of having their relationship recognized, such as tax breaks.

I don't mean to be flippent but as I said before, you are free to marry any woman who will have you. There are many examples of Gay men getting married and having a family. Here is a hint why. The blessing of having your own children far out weighs most anything else.


All the civil protections you are asking for are fair and I would be for them. Those protections come with Marriage but that is not the point. The union of two people of the same sex is not marriage. This is fast becoming nonnegotiable. The Gay movement may lose much of the progress it has fairly won over the years by insisting that society adopt a fiction.

I tell my Gay brother, "If you don't like having sex with women, just get married" Smiley

Um ... can I let you in on a secret, Marc? There are some gay couples who have children, and some straight couples who can't.

It's boring to repeat, I know, but 'sex with women' isn't the issue here: the issue is the whole relationship, and particularly the marriage aspect. That's why this thread refers to 'gay marriage', not 'sex'.
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Justin Kissel
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Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #719 on: November 08, 2009, 08:48:46 PM »

Quote
Why would I want to marry someone I don't love? I'm free to marry any woman who will have me. It makes no sense to me. And it sure isn't fair to the innocent woman for me to use her in some experiment of attempted heterosexuality.

Exactly. If you aren't heterosexual, it's just not a good idea to marry someone of the opposite sex. This should be merely stating the obvious. Such a relationship will inevitably lead to problems, especially if children result from the experimental relationship. I know this from personal experience, and I can tell you that it's a strange situation to go through.
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