Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread

[SouthSerb99]

I think the term "wee wee" has shown up way to many times in this thread.ÂÂ  I ask that heretofore, it be referred to as "pee pee", as I hope to teach my 11 month old.ÂÂ  

[Anastasios]

Should we split this off and put it in family forum?

[calligraphqueen]

I too have a hard time extending my hand towards people that practice this behavior.  In truth, it is repugnant and bizarre and alien to hetero folks.  there is a barrier between us because so many focus points are the polar opposite of our own.
How to spend my days teaching my children truth, and to protect them from all sexual deviance while I can-then reach out to those willingly practicing it?  I spend so much time in protective mode, or defense mode that I cannot shift gears very well.  And since I spend so much time deflecting or filtering homosexual propaganda, I resent those that try to foist it upon my young ones.  Where is the line here?  Church fathers were not inundated by things as seemingly innocuous as Disney movies, or Saturday cartoons with not so subtle overtones. Their children were not at government run institutions being forced to take sexual reorientation classes if they listed faith on their registration.  I kind of end up feeling hijacked a lot of the time, not very forgiving-eh?

[Matthew777]

To claim that there is no Christian position on what 'people do with their wee wees' is ludicrous.ÂÂ  

Homosexuality is no different from any other sin, it is something that must be confessed rather than falsely accepted within the Church. But in terms of the world at large, however, we must recognize that we do live in a secular society and that the Church nor the state has any power to enforce Biblical law.

Peace.

[Serbian Patriot]

Homosexuality is no different from any other sin, it is something that must be confessed rather than falsely accepted within the Church.

Well theres a discrepancy between that and your previous statement:

I think that, as Christians, we should be more concerned with social justice than what people do with their wee-wees.

But in terms of the world at large, however, we must recognize that we do live in a secular society and that the Church nor the state has any power to enforce Biblical law.

This is a thread about the Church position, why are you bringing up secular and man made laws?  As far as I can see no one has advocated the following:

It's even more disturbing that moral extremists would forbid consenting adults from deciding for themselves what to do in their own bedrooms.

Who on earth has suggested this?  Why the attempt to minimise relevant discussion on the Church view by defending homosexuals from laws that noone has advocated?

[Serbian Patriot]

@Matthew
Ive just noticed that yet again you say something meaningless then when it is refuted you ignore it.  It is becoming mildly annoying to say the least.  What happened to your statement (the heart of the Christian faith is the Sermon on the Mount, it's an instruction of what to do more than what not to do)?  Are you going to defend it from my reply or not?

[Anastasios]

I too have a hard time extending my hand towards people that practice this behavior.  In truth, it is repugnant and bizarre and alien to hetero folks.  there is a barrier between us because so many focus points are the polar opposite of our own.

That may be how you feel but I don't share the sentiment.  I am a happily married "hetro folk" but I have no problem relating to gay people. I see their sin as a sin and my sins as sins.  I don't think about what they do in private.  What does bother me is overly effeminant people who get in your face, but not just plain vanilla gay people like some neighbors I once had.  They were very friendly and nice people and I must say much more "Christian" than many of our "Christian" neighbors who condemned them all day long.  And even though over hyped up effeminacy bothers me, that doesn't stop me from talking to someone like that.  One time I was on a study abroad trip and I roomed with a gay guy as we were the last pick in the draw.  I can say after six weeks with him--he was a caring, spiritual person versus some of the people on the trip who actually tried as best as they could to exploit the natives financially, etc--he said to me that "you are the only Christian I have met who actually lives it."  Now, when asked, I consistently told him I thought homosexuality is sinful and his behavior is unacceptable.  I didn't cross that line. But I established a real relationship with him which is the only way to convert anyone.

I think that the sentiment expressed, namely that we need to wall ourselves off and then we wonder how then can we reach out to people is off the mark because how can I reach out to people shaking up when I am trying to teach my kids about marriage, or how can I reach out to the guy who likes to kick animals down the street from me, or the lady who screams at any kids that walk by her lawn, etc.? In my neighborhood there are all these types of people--I can't hide from it. Why would I focus on one type of sin over another?  I try to be loving to everyone.  Sometimes it doesn't work as I am not a saint, though.  My point is though that it is precisely to the people we abhor that we are probably supposed to be reaching out.

Anastasios

[Νεκτάριος]

I too have a hard time extending my hand towards people that practice this behavior.  In truth, it is repugnant and bizarre and alien to hetero folks.  there is a barrier between us because so many focus points are the polar opposite of our own.

Luke 10:25-37
And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

[Carpatho Russian]

Anastasios and Nektarios (sorry, no Greek fonts here!) well said.

For the rest, I do have a rhetorical question (s).  Why does it seem that at least once a month there is a post on the evilness or sinfulness of homosexuality?  Is there something lurking in the subconscious minds of posters? 

To take a line from Shakespeare's Hamlet, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks!" 

[Jesus7serb]

Orhtodox christians are true followers of christ and the holy bible.

The word of God is clear when it comes to homosexuality and orhtodx chritians do not question Gods law:

Read below,for the position of orthodoxy on gays/lesbians:

'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.'
(Leviticus 18:22)

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their
women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way
the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed
with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men,
and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
(Romans 1:26-27)

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUAL offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

[Sloga]

But I established a real relationship with him which is the only way to convert anyone.

And did he end up converting? I agree with your "relationship = convert" formula, but I dont think you can successfully get a homosexual to convert to Orthodoxy. The sexual orientation (I'm ever so tempted to say "mental disorder", but I feer someone may disagree") must be "fixed" first. Unfortunately, personally I don't see very many people changing their orientation, and the ones that do, who knows if they really did it. But thats all different if my second question is answered a certain way

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?
Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor
adulterers nor male prostitutes nor HOMOSEXUAL offenders nor thieves
nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit
the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

What if you are a homosexual but dont act on it? What if you are a Homosexual but get married to a women and have kids? What if you are Bi-sexual? Is it just the act of sodomy or is it the actual attractiveness to the same sex thats a sin? I never really thought about that.....

[Matthew777]

If faith were only defined by what we abstain from, then how could it matter what we actually do?  Does it matter more to perform good works than it is to avoid sin? I'm not sure, but I think that both must be taken seriously. All too often, people who are willing to point the finger at a certain group are not doing their part to make a better world themselves.

Peace.

[Anastasios]

And did he end up converting? I agree with your "relationship = convert" formula, but I dont think you can successfully get a homosexual to convert to Orthodoxy. The sexual orientation (I'm ever so tempted to say "mental disorder", but I feer someone may disagree") must be "fixed" first. Unfortunately, personally I don't see very many people changing their orientation, and the ones that do, who knows if they really did it. But thats all different if my second question is answered a certain way 

I lost contact with him, but you should know we have formerly active homosexuals who converted to Orthodoxy here on this very board, my friend.

The sin is the act.  The attraction is a passion just like gluttony, straight lust, etc.  It often takes a lifetime to conquer these and other passions.  The pastoral approach is to get the inquierer to stop all activity, give them lots of support, and baptise/chrismate them when they have stopped the sin, but not the thought of it, as that takes a long time of confessing and communing. They should of course like all of us begin immediately to try and stop fantasies, etc.  This is the same advice given to a straight fornicator converting.

Anastasios

[Sloga]

I lost contact with him, but you should know we have formerly active homosexuals who converted to Orthodoxy here on this very board, my friend.

First, If i have or will offend anyone that may be a "former" or curent homosexual, forgive me I have nothing against you and my thoughts on homosexuality have nothign to do with people specifically or personally. It never came to my attention that there may be people on this forum in this situation. Forgive my stupidity.

Second, by formerly active, do you mean people have have stopped the act of homosexuality, or alltogether have been "cured"?

Forgive me

[Anastasios]

Second, by formerly active, do you mean people have have stopped the act of homosexuality, or alltogether have been "cured"?

Given your circumstances (age, cultural upbringing), etc., I don't think anyone faults you for not knowing.  I for one am glad that you embrace learnign things so openly.

By formerly active, I mean, who have made a decision to stop all acts of fornication.  Whether they are "cured" is something they would best answer for themselves.  I have been informed that there are homosexual persons who have "become straight" through Orthodoxy but it seems to me this is the exception: that the damage of homosexuality runs deep and is something that is struggled with--for life.  In many cases, "cure" means to stop not only the action but also the fantasy and lust--but to "become straight" may never be possible nor even advisable, as all persons are subject to relapse of their sins, and what would you say to the woman who married a formerly active homosexual who relapses after say 20 years? It's the same thing with very active fornicators--is it advisable to marry someone who has had multiple, multiple sexual encounters over years? It may not be. But God can "cure" anyone he wants and so I leave that up to the individual and his or her confessor to sort out. What's important to me is abstinence and a fight against the passions.  I see homosexuality as like alcoholism: it may or may not be genetic, it may be a combination of many factors, but very rarely does someone recover "fully."  However, as an Orthodox, I do believe such is theoretically possible, but not in every case. God will allow various levels of repentence and grace based on the person and his plan for them.

These are just my thoughts based on experience.  I reject both extremes: namely that one is born homosexual, thus it is natural, and the Church should change; and the other, that it is something that ALWAYS with enough prayer can and must be "overcome" and the person can and should become straight and have a "normal" life, while accepting the possibility that this may happen if God wills it.  Perhaps the best solution is monasticism or some form of ministry that does not require marriage.

Anastasios

[ozgeorge]

Perhaps the best solution is monasticism or some form of ministry that does not require marriage.

Monasticism is like marriage in many respects, and I would not think it is a good choice for same-sex attracted persons, especially since it places one in close community with persons of the same sex (the object of attraction). Contrary to popular opinion, our spiritual strength and ability to supress our evil desires and inclinations actually weaken (along with their physical counterparts) as we get older....

[Sloga]

Given your circumstances (age, cultural upbringing), etc., I don't think anyone faults you for not knowing.ÂÂ  I for one am glad that you embrace learnign things so openly.

By formerly active, I mean, who have made a decision to stop all acts of fornication.ÂÂ  Whether they are "cured" is something they would best answer for themselves.ÂÂ  I have been informed that there are homosexual persons who have "become straight" through Orthodoxy but it seems to me this is the exception: that the damage of homosexuality runs deep and is something that is struggled with--for life.ÂÂ  In many cases, "cure" means to stop not only the action but also the fantasy and lust--but to "become straight" may never be possible nor even advisable, as all persons are subject to relapse of their sins, and what would you say to the woman who married a formerly active homosexual who relapses after say 20 years? It's the same thing with very active fornicators--is it advisable to marry someone who has had multiple, multiple sexual encounters over years? It may not be. But God can "cure" anyone he wants and so I leave that up to the individual and his or her confessor to sort out. What's important to me is abstinence and a fight against the passions.ÂÂ  I see homosexuality as like alcoholism: it may or may not be genetic, it may be a combination of many factors, but very rarely does someone recover "fully."ÂÂ  However, as an Orthodox, I do believe such is theoretically possible, but not in every case. God will allow various levels of repentence and grace based on the person and his plan for them.

These are just my thoughts based on experience.ÂÂ  I reject both extremes: namely that one is born homosexual, thus it is natural, and the Church should change; and the other, that it is something that ALWAYS with enough prayer can and must be "overcome" and the person can and should become straight and have a "normal" life, while accepting the possibility that this may happen if God wills it.ÂÂ  Perhaps the best solution is monasticism or some form of ministry that does not require marriage.

Anastasios

Thank you brother, that was very insightful. I agree with your neither extremeity belief also, which is why I asked if it was the actions or the actual feelings that were stopped.

As for the marriage, I believe it is ok to give them some sort of financial agreement together, but not an offical marriage.

Contrary to popular opinion, our spiritual strength and ability to supress our evil desires and inclinations actually weaken (along with their physical counterparts) as we get older....

I believe it is a parabolic relationship...our spiritual strength begins weak as we are "finding" ourselves, but  during the midlife (perhaps mid 30s?), your spiritual strength is at its heighest and then eventually begins to come back down.

[Anastasios]

Monasticism is like marriage in many respects, and I would not think it is a good choice for same-sex attracted persons, especially since it places one in close community with persons of the same sex (the object of attraction). Contrary to popular opinion, our spiritual strength and ability to supress our evil desires and inclinations actually weaken (along with their physical counterparts) as we get older....

I thought about that before I wrote it but the example of several saints in the lives of the desert fathers who overcame what was apparently same-sex lust in conjunction with some monks I have met who were homosexuals and are now chaste caused me to offer it as an option, although possibly as you say not for everyone.

Anastasios

[Cephas]

+ Irini nem ehmot,

I believe it is a parabolic relationship...our spiritual strength begins weak as we are "finding" ourselves, but  during the midlife (perhaps mid 30s?), your spiritual strength is at its heighest and then eventually begins to come back down.

This caught my attention.  If spiritual strength is parabolic, that would seem to indicate that one has hit a 'peak' somehow.  As I understand it, there is no such peak, as we continue to strive to grow in Christ everyday (Christ being the source of our strength).  As Christians, we are called to grow in Christ continuously and try to be more like Him.  For our spiritual strength to decline would indicate a distruption in the link between us and the Source (Christ) which must be remedied right away.  As we get older, our spiritual strength (ideally) continues to grow and develop, it should not slacken.

Please pray for me.

[Sloga]

Contrary to popular opinion, our spiritual strength and ability to supress our evil desires and inclinations actually weaken (along with their physical counterparts) as we get older....

This caught my attention.  If spiritual strength is parabolic, that would seem to indicate that one has hit a 'peak' somehow.  As I understand it, there is no such peak, as we continue to strive to grow in Christ everyday (Christ being the source of our strength). 

I was mearly attempting to broaden OZ's statement by saying we do not start of spiritually, but your contradiction is between you and him, not me 

[Cephas]

+ Irini nem ehmot,

My bad.  I didn't realize the point you were trying to make.  My humblest apologies.

Please pray for me.

[Thomas]

As a social worker, I have  had the opportunity to come accross men who have come for counseling  stating they had a "sexual identity crisis".  Upon listening to many of them I discovered that while they were in their teens and trying to discern what God had in mind for them, they were approached by older  men who told them that because they had no attraction to women sexually that obviously they were homosexual.  They were led as children into homosexuality, guided by adult male predators who advised them that a person was either attracted to men or attracted to women. Such is the black and white result of the American Protestant Ethic.  They bought the idea that you were one way or the other, they did not know or teach about the third way, the angelic way of celibacy and possibly monastacism.

I have counseled numerous men and women who have had horrible relationships with companions, wives , life partners etc because they thought they must be in a relationship with either a man or a woman.  In my sesssions when I introduce the third way of celibacy, they are shocked---they almost always come back with the response they did not know of a third option. Our society does not offer the thgird option for the most part.  Indeed even Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians often forget this option.

It is a very valid option and for those who have been called by God to it, this option can provide them great joy and fulfillment, a fulfillment much like that of marriage to those called to it. Perhaps the high divorce rate and growing homosexual voice may be arising from people who ave been denied the Third option for their life. What do you think?

In Christ,
Thomas

[Fr. George]

As a social worker, I have  had the opportunity to come accross men who have come for counseling  stating they had a "sexual identity crisis".  Upon listening to many of them I discovered that while they were in their teens and trying to discern what God had in mind for them, they were approached by older  men who told them that because they had no attraction to women sexually that obviously they were homosexual.  They were led as children into homosexuality, guided by adult male predators who advised them that a person was either attracted to men or attracted to women. Such is the black and white result of the American Protestant Ethic.  They bought the idea that you were one way or the other, they did not know or teach about the third way, the angelic way of celibacy and possibly monastacism. 

Thomas, I never knew about that kind of phenomenon!  As for the final sentence, I agree 100%!  Even in Orthodox families today, as I have observed in the GOA, the third option is seen as abnormal or strange.  It will be a long journey to get people to understand the blessings of each way of life - married (hetero) and celibate.

[Tallitot]

Just curious as to why this topic comes up so often 

[Fr. George]

How about #6: It is a socially unacceptable sin (unlike adultery, which at times is okay as long as it isn't public) that makes the perpetrator to seem more like a leper than the rest of us, who commit sins of equal magnitude yet because they are socially "acceptable" or "normal" don't get the condemnation.  THus, we use the internet like a lynch mob starting ground, to stir up anger at a sin which is just as bad as the anger and fury we wish to unleash upon it (specifically because our anger is not righteous anger, but rather fearful and ignorant).

[BJohnD]

How about #6: It is a socially unacceptable sin (unlike adultery, which at times is okay as long as it isn't public) that makes the perpetrator to seem more like a leper than the rest of us, who commit sins of equal magnitude yet because they are socially "acceptable" or "normal" don't get the condemnation.ÂÂ  THus, we use the internet like a lynch mob starting ground, to stir up anger at a sin which is just as bad as the anger and fury we wish to unleash upon it (specifically because our anger is not righteous anger, but rather fearful and ignorant).

B-I-N-G-O.

[Keble]

How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?

[kansas city]

Maybe i'm an exception, or maybe i'm of precisely the perspective you're referring to. ÂÂ But i've hoped that the threads regarding homosexuality might offer some legitimate patristic insight, but that wasn't an option on the poll. A significant percentage of my friends are gay, travelling in the social circles i do. ÂÂ Not to mention the 'biological' claims, and dramatic demands of acceptance or running the risk of committing a 'hate crime.'  I have a distinct opinion about it and would like Orthodox insight because i am newly, however limitedly, 'illumined'.

I understand that this thread is most likely directed hostilely at specific posters, but i was hoping that a genuine inquiry might steer things more positively.

Forgive me for whatever could be interpreted sarcastically or offensively.

michael

[Αριστοκλής]

How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?

There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)

[Sloga]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=9360.msg125770#msg125770 date=1151361157]
There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)
[/quote]

Which further proves that the folks of OC.net are up to date and in style 

[Carpatho Russian]

I went for choice #4.
As I posted previously:

Why does it seem that at least once a month there is a post on the evilness or sinfulness of homosexuality?  Is there something lurking in the subconscious minds of posters? 
To take a line from Shakespeare's Hamlet, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks!" 

Although I think Cleveland's #6 says alot!

[aserb]

Kansas City

Are you Serbian or do you just attend a SOC? Regardless, the Serbs of OC.net welcome you Orthodox Brother.

[kansas city]

hah I love that that's always the first question i'm asked. Sunday was my first experience visiting an ethnic Serb parish. It was, in truth, quite an experience (positive).  i won't take the thread off topic; but that does remind me of a light-hearted poll i wanted to start myself..

[Sloga]

hah I love that that's always the first question i'm asked. Sunday was my first experience visiting an ethnic Serb parish. It was, in truth, quite an experience (positive).ÂÂ  i won't take the thread off topic; but that does remind me of a light-hearted poll i wanted to start myself..

Welcome brother 

[Psalti Boy]

Just curious as to why this topic comes up so oftenÂÂ  

Could it be that someone may be peeking out of the closet???

[Tikhon29605]

I love visiting ethnic Slavic parishes! I am not of Slavic background, but they are always so warm, loving and gracious to me. Sometimes I view myself almost as an "adopted Slav." Of course, maybe it helps that I am well read in Slavic history, and have a deep appreciation for their culture and musical traditions. But I just really feel at home with the Slavs (particularly the Russians), even though I had a Germanic Lutheran upbringing.

[Matthew777]

Sadly, the first option is the one most likely to be true.

Peace.

[GiC]

Sadly, the first option is the one most likely to be true.

Peace.

Nah, I'm going with the plurality, #4...but it probably spills over into #5.

[Asteriktos]

Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity

Interestingly, in some ancient cultures it was considered more manly to have homosexual relations. Though I should say, lest I give the wrong impression by my recent posts, that I am not a homosexual myself   "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

[DavidH]

How about a sixth choice?
Because it IS such a hot button issue these days for both the left and the right many Christians with traditional values feel it is important to speak up and let their voice be heard in a democracy?................
   Honestly, not everyone who believes society should maintain traditional standards of decency is a hypocrite or a closet homosexual. Should we stereotype social liberals by saying that everyone who favors the modern form of tolerance is necessarilly a libertine?..........

In Christ,
Rd. David

[smallwhisper]

Peasants! Miller Life? If you want water get it out of the tap! But if you like your beer like your women- cold, strong, black and bitter- drink Guinness!

Good to see someone upholding "traditional standards of decency". An uncharitable person would think this statement came from a bigot, a chauvinist, or even a "libertine".

[DavidH]

Thank goodness there are are more Orthodox with a sense of humor than there are uncharitable ones.

[GiC]

Thank goodness there are are more Orthodox with a sense of humor than there are uncharitable ones.

Though I may disagree with you on the psychology of those obsessed with homosexuality on religious internet forums, when it comes to what really matters, i.e. Beer, I'm 100% behind you

[Psalti Boy]

Though I may disagree with you on the psychology of those obsessed with homosexuality on religious internet forums, when it comes to what really matters, i.e. Beer, I'm 100% behind you

OK.  I've had enough homosexual talk.  I'm out of here.

[DavidH]

Though I may disagree with you on the psychology of those obsessed with homosexuality on religious internet forums, when it comes to what really matters, i.e. Beer, I'm 100% behind you

I would be against an obsessive position from either the left or the right, but at least we agree on matters of SUBSTANCE.

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