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Question: Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 19 (26.8%)
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Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates - 7 (9.9%)
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity - 20 (28.2%)
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 15 (21.1%)
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #360 on: May 19, 2009, 01:17:14 PM »

Christ is risen!

Sorry to drag this sorry thread to the top again.

I don't have the energy to engage in a prolonged discussion about this subject but I feel that I have to say a few words.

There is a conflict within the Finnish Orthodox Church. The well meaning Theoprovlitos have correctly named Heikki Huttunen (Orthodox priest, chairman of the Finnish ecumenical council and active homosexual rights supporter) and his gang, that includes a handful of Orthodox priests, as the agitators.

Among the opponents of Heikki Huttunen & co are some leading people of the Orthodox lay academy located at the new Valaam monastery, Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö (Brotherhood of Cosmas of Aetolia) and numerous priests. These have been sending letters to the Archbishop Leo asking him to take action. If the Archbishop fails to take action these people and organisations have been threatening to turn to Moscow for help (i.e. setting up a parallel Church in Finland that would be under the Patriarch of Moscow).

I do not think that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow are blind and dumb. They know what is going on. I get the feeling they are just waiting for the Finnish Church to "sit straight" (pun actually intended, sorry Cool ), they do not want to interfere prematurely. If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.

You would be surprised to know that there are more people than the ones mentioned who are against the actual status of the Finnish Church but they are no so foolish to openly protest against the situation. There is another team that translates every article into Russian and send it to the Moscow Patriarchate.

I personaly have cooperated with the Finnish Church, Heikki Huttunen himself, Bishop Arseni, Abbot Sergei, previous Archbishop John, Archbishop's secretary, Lintulan Monastery etc. I have friends in various posts of the Finnish Church. And I personally know the people of St Kosmas Aetolialainen who do an important work by transalting Greek Orthodox books into Finnish.

Many of the people visited Greece or stayed with us in the past. Some were "innovators" and some were openly gay. And this wasn't an issue. It BECAME an issue since Fr Heikki Huttunen as an ultra ecumenist (actually a PROFESSIONAL ONE) is getting payed to bring the "churches" together. And the only thing that is an obstacle (I supose that to him all other dogmatic differences have been resolved) is the ordination of women and acceptance of homosexuality in the Church. And he is working HARD on that.

I insist that he is unable even to see the HUGE difference between accepting a homosexual person and accepting homosexuality itself which is the same as accepting an adulterer in the church and adultery itself. And Fr Heikki goes even further by suggestin acceptance of homosexual marriage and even blessing them as if they were man and wife. This is a combination of immorality and heresy that church history has NEVER dealed before with.

As amatter of fact the true Archbishop of Finladn is Fr Heikki who has managed to infuence other priests and promote his people to important positions in the Orthodox Church. From the Archbishop's assistants to Ortaid, the Uspensky cathedral, the publications department, etc. Archbishop Leo is practically being dragged by the facts.

The fact is that both Patriarchates know what is going on but in order to do this someone has to transalte them from Finnish all those disgraseful articles that have been published in Aamun Koitto mainly by Fr Heikki Hutunen's spiritual son, the worst of all being the hints that Christ was homosexual and had a special relationship with St John while Ss Sergius and Baccus were homosexuals. In reality they reproduce the vomit of an American guy called Boswell and have turn his blasphemies into the 5th Gospel. They suck Boswell's vomit and trow it against the face of the Orthodox people. And so two things happen:

Those who are mature in faith, or they have connections with other Orthodox countries OF COURSE they protest. They have been writing letters to Metropolitan Ambrosius bu tin vain. They have been calling to see him and Ambrosius was hiding. They never got any official reply from anyone in the Finnish Orthodox Church. Therefore it is the attitude of the Finnish Church that pushed them towards Moscow. They DIDN'T address themselves to Moscow right from the start.

Those who are immature and new converts in faith they are being educated that the immorality and the heresy introduced by Boswel is TRUE ORTHODOXY. And so new converts to Orthodoxy in Finland if they happen to become Orthodox bythat spesific group they are becoming in reality heretics just like their false-teachers.

It is a fact that Fr Heikki is DETERMINED to pass this cult in the Finnish Orthodox CHurch. And this is why not only they never reply to protests but they persecute those who protest, to begin with by calling them fanatics, and fundamentalists while I know very well that they aren't. What they might be is that they have that extra zeal of converts (they are converts too) to keep the letter of the law and live an ascetic and spiritual life.

This sometimes is the other side of converts: Either to zealous to keep the letter of the law while what's important is the spirit, or the opposite (like Fr Heikki Huttunen) when for "humanistic" reasons and for the sake of "New Age love" there are neither Letters nor Laws and EVERYTHING is allowed!

Both lines are outside the frame of Orthodoxy but at least the first one is dogmatically and morally correct and I personally prefer it to the immorality introduced as "freedom" and "evolution".

However something HAS to happen in the Orthodox Church of Finland befroe it is too late. May be it will. I just got this announcement from the EP in reply to my letter and presentation of documents and facts..


ΟΙΚΟΥΜΕΝΙΚΟΝ ΠΑΤΡΙΑΡΧΕΙΟΝ

ΑΓΙΑ ΚΑΙ ΙΕΡΑ ΣΥΝΟΔΟΣ

Συνῆλθεν, ὑπό τήν προεδρείαν τῆς Α. Θ. Παναγιότητος, ἡ Ἁγία καί Ἱερά Σύνοδος εἰς τάς τακτικάς συνεδρίας αὐτῆς τὴν Δευτέραν, 18ην, καὶ τὴν Τρίτην, 19ην  τ. μ.  Μαΐου, καὶ ἐξήτασε πάντα τὰ ἐν τῇ ἡμερησίᾳ διατάξει ἀναγεγραμμένα θέματα, ἐπὶ τῶν ὁποίων καὶ ἐλήφθησαν αἱ προσήκουσαι ἀποφάσεις.
                     
      Ἐκ τοῦ Γραφείου.
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Robert W
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« Reply #361 on: May 19, 2009, 03:04:23 PM »

You would be surprised to know that there are more people than the ones mentioned who are against the actual status of the Finnish Church but they are no so foolish to openly protest against the situation. There is another team that translates every article into Russian and send it to the Moscow Patriarchate.

I am most certainly not surprised, even though this is new information to me. I am well aware that there is a broad grass roots movement against what is going on.

I know Theoprovlitos that you write so passionately about this subject because you care, but I would like to ask you to tone it down a little bit. Accusations that Metropolitan Ambrosius is gay is not really helping the cause. Remember that to slander a bishop is to slander the apostolic office. It is unwise to publicly accuse a bishop based on hearsay.

I am eagerly waiting for Archbishop Leo to open his mouth and speak, he has been silent about this for too long! I do have confidence in him. He is by no means a stupid man and I hope that he soon will realize that the greater part of his flock expects him to do something about father Heikki.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #362 on: May 19, 2009, 08:15:44 PM »

I am most certainly not surprised, even though this is new information to me. I am well aware that there is a broad grass roots movement against what is going on.

I know Theoprovlitos that you write so passionately about this subject because you care, but I would like to ask you to tone it down a little bit. Accusations that Metropolitan Ambrosius is gay is not really helping the cause. Remember that to slander a bishop is to slander the apostolic office. It is unwise to publicly accuse a bishop based on hearsay.

I am eagerly waiting for Archbishop Leo to open his mouth and speak, he has been silent about this for too long! I do have confidence in him. He is by no means a stupid man and I hope that he soon will realize that the greater part of his flock expects him to do something about father Heikki.

Amen! My aim isn't and never was to accuse a bishop or even a priest for being gay. Because this is something between himself and God and as you stated an office is not influenced by someone's sanctity. Besides I know or have heard stories about who is gay and who isn't. The problem is the acceptance of immorality in the church especailly gay marriages which are a blasphemy to the realtion of Christ as a bridegroom with His church s a bride. I think this goes beyond the limits of heresy.

I would be happy if I knew that Metropolitan Ambrosius was gay but doesn't tolerate or teaches such things than his being straight but accepts all that stuff in the Church.

My idea about Metropolitan Ambrosius is that he COULD be one of the best bishops in Orthodoxy thanks to his talents, But something went really wrong with him or maybe with the people who surround him.

I am not happy if people will be beheaded. It is a pitty for him for his efforts for the Orthodox Church. But what's the use being active as a MANAGER when spiritualy you let the wolves eat the lamps?

The very same appleis to Fr Heikki Huttunen. He COULD be an important perosn in the church while now he has become a danger because of his PRIDE to teach ALL others about what is right and wrong.



Hierarchical title added to each mention of a bishop's name to make post compliant with forum policy regarding the respect we are to give our hierarchs  -PtA
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #363 on: May 19, 2009, 08:30:46 PM »

PS As to Archbishop Leo, truly he seems /seemed to be a serious person. However to the surprise of many, while in private discussions he admitted the existance of a strong "Gay mafia" within the Finnish Orthodox Church, he publically never denounced them or took measures against them while he even hired Mr Jyrki Harkonen, close friend (if not spiritual child) of Fr Heikki Huttunen. How do these all match the image of a serious hierarch? Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them? Even the worlds they put in his mouth are not written by him but given to him. I mean his church is falling apart. He HAD to do something else than keep silent.
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« Reply #364 on: May 20, 2009, 09:27:45 AM »

Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them?
Yeah, they probably threatened to stone him with rose petals. Roll Eyes I have to admit, that it does sound like there are some problems within the Orthodox Church of Finland. But your constant conspiracy theorizing does NOT help one bit in your arguments.
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Aristobolus
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« Reply #365 on: May 20, 2009, 10:06:34 AM »

Theoprovlitos,

I think that your words speak more of a desire to call attention to a very disturbing situation in the Orthodox Church (I speak this way because there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church).  When one of its members suffer, we all suffer. 

As for conspiracies, how do we think mainstream American denomination were taken over?  With open air meetings to begin with?  Besides, Theoprovlitos is not speaking of some "underground" shadow government- he speaks of what is happening openly at this more later stage of degradation in the life of the Church of Finland.

However it should hearten all of us that we are hearing of reports that the Hierarchs are aware of this situation, and will tend to the flock.  We all need tending at times.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #366 on: May 20, 2009, 10:38:01 AM »

Or is the mafia blackmailing or manipulating even the Archbishop himself who doesn't want to start an open front with them?
Yeah, they probably threatened to stone him with rose petals. Roll Eyes I have to admit, that it does sound like there are some problems within the Orthodox Church of Finland. But your constant conspiracy theorizing does NOT help one bit in your arguments.

iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
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« Reply #367 on: May 20, 2009, 10:43:05 AM »

iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
That is SOOOOOOO convenient. Man just when it seemed like you would have to prove something you have said, and then, WHAM, another conspiracy. You live a very exciting life indeed. Ruin the image of the Finnish Church? You haven't held back before, so what is stopping you now? Lack of evidence to support a pet theory is my guess. Roll Eyes
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #368 on: May 20, 2009, 11:02:45 AM »

iN this case you are never going to get sufficient "evidences" for what do I mean by threaten or manipulate because I will have to refer to details which cannot be announced here both because they will ruin the image of the Finnish Orthodox Church even more and becasue I don't want to reveal my sources which exist quietly without daring to openly tell their views.
That is SOOOOOOO convenient. Man just when it seemed like you would have to prove something you have said, and then, WHAM, another conspiracy. You live a very exciting life indeed. Ruin the image of the Finnish Church? You haven't held back before, so what is stopping you now? Lack of evidence to support a pet theory is my guess. Roll Eyes

I am afraid that you are the only one left to believe that all this is a conspiracy and soon noone is going to take you seriously. AND it is obviously a personal thing against me because whenever you get testimonies form other people you don't even DARE questioning their credibility.

You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

Someone who lives in Greece and knows SO many people in the Finnish Chruch either he must be clairvoyant or a CIA agent I guess according to you. It is impossible to you that he knows SPECIFIC people of the environement of bishop Ambrosius or Archbishop Leo. That he happens to know who are the ones who write Leo's speaches on his behalf.

Ok here's one more link from the magazine "Road to Emmaus" of which I happen to be a correspondent

http://www.roadtoemmaus.net/back_issue_articles/RTE_12/Living_Theology_in_Thessalonica.pdf

The latest issue on the Church of Finland is not online yet. Of course there you won't see scandals but the optimistic side of things, though A LOT have happened since the interview was taken.
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« Reply #369 on: May 20, 2009, 11:05:41 AM »

No, you lose credibility, when you state something as FACT, then when asked to support your position, say that it is confidential/ damaging info. Support what you say, and then, maybe people will listen to you.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #370 on: May 20, 2009, 01:52:45 PM »

Theoprovlitos,

Are you aware of the logical fallacy of the bald-faced (a.k.a. bare) assertion?

  • X claims statement A.
  • X also claims that X is not lying.
  • Therefore, A is true.

IOW, the bare assertion fallacy can be summed up this way:  "It's true because I say it's true, and I don't lie."  The reason this doesn't work, though, is that we can't verify from your words alone that you're not lying.  Maybe you're telling us the whole truth and nothing but the truth, but how do we know?  You've not been here long enough to establish any credibility for yourself, and what inclination we may have had to offer you the benefit of the doubt you have summarily destroyed with outrageous claims that appear highly unlikely at face value, so we're not inclined to trust you just yet.  Thus it all comes down to nothing more than what you say here.  (Maybe what you're saying is totally true.  But how do we know?)  There's one way around this impasse:  show us official sources that prove that you're not lying.
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« Reply #371 on: May 20, 2009, 02:04:12 PM »

You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #372 on: May 20, 2009, 02:12:29 PM »

No, you lose credibility, when you state something as FACT, then when asked to support your position, say that it is confidential/ damaging info. Support what you say, and then, maybe people will listen to you.

No I am sorry, it is better for me to sound ureliale than turn in some people and cause them more trouble than they are already in. Whatever is published can be reproduced. The rest makes the picture more complete to those who already know.

For instance Archbishop Leo was saying different things before Mr Harkonen became his "Theological" Secretary. What do you wan to know? Who is writing him his speaches and who told me?

And if a teenager has suffered sexual harassment from a certain priest what do you want to know the name of the priest or the name of the child?
And last but not least if a child has suffered sexual harassment from a priest and he turns to the police then what should the police do? Instead of arresting the offender  arrest the child due to "lack of evidence" for spreading false rumours?

I am not targetting at the Archbishop Leo in anycase for any other reason than letting some rotten theologians destroy the Finnish Orthodox Church. It is evident from other news (with that priest who is a candidate in the elections) that in the Finnish Orthodox Church WHOEVER does WHATEVER he pleases. As if it were a HEADLESS corps while its head should be Christ.

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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #373 on: May 20, 2009, 02:37:35 PM »

You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.

I am not sure if you mean by that that you don't read enough Finnish newspapers or even links of official Finnish and Russian organizations or simply that the promotion of homosexuality and gay marriage within the Church and of openly gay priests doesn't upset you at all. I'd rather assume the second, because the sources presented here as well as testimonies from at least three more people besides myself, are more than enough. I mean is the OFFICIAL program of a gay activist ecumenist group against you. And I would rather believe what I see than what you don't even though it is more than evident.

Here some more for you

Finnish Monk arrested for sexual harassment of 6 men

From the official site of Finnish police

http://yle.fi/poliisitv/raportit.php?sivu=raportti_anon

and various sites from google

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=munkki+Kristoforos+Haapaj%C3%A4rvi&meta=

Now these "Orthodox" people are trying to prove that nothing is wrong with a priest or a monk openly express his homosexuality.

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« Reply #374 on: May 20, 2009, 03:17:29 PM »

You can keep dreaming in a fictionary world till one day you wake up and face harsh reality as it is.

You mean one day we'll wake up, see something actually worth getting upset about, substantially proven by a legitimate source, and then react accordingly? 

That sounds good to me.

I am not sure if you mean by that that you don't read enough Finnish newspapers or even links of official Finnish and Russian organizations or simply that the promotion of homosexuality and gay marriage within the Church and of openly gay priests doesn't upset you at all. I'd rather assume the second,
So, you would rather assume the worst of an individual?

because the sources presented here as well as testimonies from at least three more people besides myself, are more than enough.
As a general rule, that's for us on the jury to decide.  If we're not convinced of the truthfulness of the claims here presented, then it's more likely that what evidence you have provided is just not enough of the right kind to convince us.

I mean is the OFFICIAL program of a gay activist ecumenist group against you. And I would rather believe what I see than what you don't even though it is more than evident.

Here some more for you

Finnish Monk arrested for sexual harassment of 6 men

From the official site of Finnish police

http://yle.fi/poliisitv/raportit.php?sivu=raportti_anon

and various sites from google

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=munkki+Kristoforos+Haapaj%C3%A4rvi&meta=
I don't doubt the sad truth of this criminal behavior on the part of a monk, but this may very well be an isolated occurrence that reveals nothing of any kind of a larger conspiracy of a gay activist ecumenist group.

Now these "Orthodox" people are trying to prove that nothing is wrong with a priest or a monk openly express his homosexuality.
And that is an outrageous, though possibly true claim that you have yet to substantiate.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #375 on: May 21, 2009, 01:28:21 AM »

And that is an outrageous, though possibly true claim that you have yet to substantiate.

You can simply check the program of the PRO GAY 'CHRISTIAN' ECUMENIST conference which Just started with the OPEN particiption of ORTHODOX PRIESTS,as PRIESTS and not as individuals and the blessing of the local BISHOP who was/is to particiapte as well. If you also watch carefully you will find out that there will also be Orthodox SERVICES adn as far as I know an Orthodox priest cannot organize even SERVICES eithout his bishop knowing and it is more than obvious that the priest who will serve it is particiapting there as a PRIEST and not as an individual.

I remind that with the case of another priest whose crime was to participate in the european elections the Finnish Church IMMEDIATELY responded and took measures against him while in the case of the gay activist "orthodox" not only they keep silent but they absolutely agree. Or the Official website of the Ecumenist Gay Organization where the preists of the Gay mafia OPENLY list their names and supporters

You have to start trusting your eyes and your logic, (just as everybody else).
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« Reply #376 on: May 21, 2009, 02:12:11 AM »

You have to start trusting your eyes and your logic, (just as everybody else).
Ya know, I've learned to trust only half of what I can see, and my reasoning has often led me astray.  That's why I ask a lot of questions and often display a "prove it to me" approach to discussions.

So back to the question of the day:  Why should I believe what you have to say?
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #377 on: May 21, 2009, 09:08:17 AM »


So back to the question of the day:  Why should I believe what you have to say?

Simply because it is there on the internet everywhere, and not according to MY point of view but on the contrary on THEIRS. Their christian ethics have been so badly altered that they even PUBLISH what they do being even proud about it. In a serious church that is not falling apart you just don't have a priest who is OFFICIALLY representing the Orthodox Church in the Ecumenical Cousil have his name OPENLY listed in a Ecumenist Gay Organization and even give pro-gay lectures in ecumenist gay meetings or give interviews in Orthodox gay magazines about blessing homosexual weddings in the Church.
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« Reply #378 on: May 21, 2009, 09:25:22 AM »

You're doing a great job at proving your point Theoprovlitos.  Roll Eyes

Just as an aside, Do they call themselves the "Gay Mafia", or is this your title for them? If it is YOUR title you are, yet again, showing how UNobjective you are, and therefore, LESS believable.
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« Reply #379 on: May 21, 2009, 12:44:16 PM »

You're doing a great job at proving your point Theoprovlitos.  Roll Eyes

Just as an aside, Do they call themselves the "Gay Mafia", or is this your title for them? If it is YOUR title you are, yet again, showing how UNobjective you are, and therefore, LESS believable.

No the term gay mafia is used by me. It has een used by the Archbishop Leo in private discussion with a theoligian who went to discuss with him on the issue but of course the only way you can proove that, is have the two people involved admit it.

Anyway they consist of a group because it is the very same people everywhere promoting each other to important positions in the Church promoting homosexuality and threatening those who protest.

As for example when the theologian Hannu Poyhonen, of the New Valaam Monastery Lay Academy gave a lecture about the true Orthodox views on homosexuality, the chairman of the Lay Academy who also happens to be First priest of Helsinki parish and member of the Ecumenist Gay Club went to Valamo in order to make Poyhonen shut up otherwise his job is at risk and "his people" would start a boycot against the New Valaam Lay Academy and the monastery itself. Abbot Sergei is of the Orthodox line and took Poyhonen's side unlike Archbishop Leo who was present and didn't open his mouth playing the "diplomat". His secretary also belongs to the Orthodox Gay Club.

The Gay Club, or mafia -name it as you wish but "Church"- tries to manipulate also Valaam Monastery. The sad thing is that they have managed to introduce discretely their gay propaganda also in the Finnish Orthodox Schoolbooks:

Here it is the part that introduces HOMOSEXUALITY AMONG SCHOOLCHILDREN:

"The Orthodox teaching on love and sexuality includes within it MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. ALL of them however lead to the service of love. Love is a deeper service and sexuality is just one small part of it."

Then "The main teacher of Christian sexual ethics HAS BEEN for long Apostle Paul."

From Finnish "Orthodox" schoolbook "Orthodox Ethics and Dogmatic/Ortodoksinen Etiikka ja Dogmatikka" page 57.

Of course this is not the ONLY fallacy that has been included simply because Finns believe that they are their OWN teachers and this book has never been checked by a committee of expert theolgians from Greece or Russia.

In another part which reflects their perception of a NEw Age Rainbow God is on the chapter on the existence of evil and suffering, where the author claims that "God's work only starts AFTER the catastrophy because the existance of evil is mystery also to Him" (page 66).  No wander when these people believe in a NEw Age Christ -who is never angry or a judge- that they would come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING around sex is allowed and the only-good Rainbow Christ not only tolerates imorality but He blesses it!
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« Reply #380 on: May 21, 2009, 03:39:54 PM »

You're doing a great job at proving your point Theoprovlitos.  Roll Eyes

Just as an aside, Do they call themselves the "Gay Mafia", or is this your title for them? If it is YOUR title you are, yet again, showing how UNobjective you are, and therefore, LESS believable.

No the term gay mafia is used by me. It has een used by the Archbishop Leo in private discussion with a theoligian who went to discuss with him on the issue but of course the only way you can proove that, is have the two people involved admit it.

Anyway they consist of a group because it is the very same people everywhere promoting each other to important positions in the Church promoting homosexuality and threatening those who protest.

As for example when the theologian Hannu Poyhonen, of the New Valaam Monastery Lay Academy gave a lecture about the true Orthodox views on homosexuality, the chairman of the Lay Academy who also happens to be First priest of Helsinki parish and member of the Ecumenist Gay Club went to Valamo in order to make Poyhonen shut up otherwise his job is at risk and "his people" would start a boycot against the New Valaam Lay Academy and the monastery itself. Abbot Sergei is of the Orthodox line and took Poyhonen's side unlike Archbishop Leo who was present and didn't open his mouth playing the "diplomat". His secretary also belongs to the Orthodox Gay Club.

The Gay Club, or mafia -name it as you wish but "Church"- tries to manipulate also Valaam Monastery. The sad thing is that they have managed to introduce discretely their gay propaganda also in the Finnish Orthodox Schoolbooks:

Here it is the part that introduces HOMOSEXUALITY AMONG SCHOOLCHILDREN:

"The Orthodox teaching on love and sexuality includes within it MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. ALL of them however lead to the service of love. Love is a deeper service and sexuality is just one small part of it."

Then "The main teacher of Christian sexual ethics HAS BEEN for long Apostle Paul."

From Finnish "Orthodox" schoolbook "Orthodox Ethics and Dogmatic/Ortodoksinen Etiikka ja Dogmatikka" page 57.

Of course this is not the ONLY fallacy that has been included simply because Finns believe that they are their OWN teachers and this book has never been checked by a committee of expert theolgians from Greece or Russia.

In another part which reflects their perception of a NEw Age Rainbow God is on the chapter on the existence of evil and suffering, where the author claims that "God's work only starts AFTER the catastrophy because the existance of evil is mystery also to Him" (page 66).  No wander when these people believe in a NEw Age Christ -who is never angry or a judge- that they would come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING around sex is allowed and the only-good Rainbow Christ not only tolerates imorality but He blesses it!
So, just more of what you say is going on. Roll Eyes  Where's the proof?  Don't just tell me to go find it online.  Bring it here and post links to it.
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« Reply #381 on: May 21, 2009, 03:41:10 PM »

I second that!
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« Reply #382 on: May 21, 2009, 05:19:00 PM »

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6046

Quote
21 May 2009, 17:38
Clerics of Constantinople Patriarchate to participate in a gay conference in Finland

Helsinki, May 21, Interfax - The clerics of the Finnish Orthodox Church of the Constantinople Patriarchate are going to participate in the European Forum of LGBT Christian Groups Conference Courage to Follow the Law of Love which opened Tuesday in Järvenpää and Helsinki, Finland.

The participants will begin every day by attending the Orthodox service, and then going to sauna, the social movement Yhteys (Unity) which is fighting for the rights of sexual minorities, reports.
...

The entire article at the link above.
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« Reply #383 on: May 22, 2009, 12:48:11 AM »

The silence is deafening.  Someone provides what is no doubt a credible news source, namely Interfax; and one can hear a pin drop.  Finland may seem light years away, but if this situation is not dealt with, then for the first time in Orthodox church history, a considerable amount of Eastern Rite churches will be in the hands of sodomites.  They will spread this movement from Finland to other regions, setting up parallel "gay friendly" jurisdictions.  At the very least all of us should be grieved and sickened over this.  We should bring this to the attention of our bishops.  Do not just read about this on a blog and live a virtual reality on a screen; contact your bishop with this Interfax report. 
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« Reply #384 on: May 22, 2009, 02:28:47 AM »

 Huh What is being discussed here? This thread has stopped making sense a long time ago.

The OP speaks about the gay conference that will include participation of Orthodox clergy. Our poster Theoprovlitos provided a link to the website of the group called "yhteys" right from the start. The participation of Orthodox clergy in this event was never in question.

Thank you orthodoxlurker for posting the interfax link. It is interesting to see that this event is noted elsewhere also. Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki Undecided talk about barking up the wrong three.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #385 on: May 22, 2009, 02:39:06 AM »

The silence is deafening.  Someone provides what is no doubt a credible news source, namely Interfax; and one can hear a pin drop.
I guess you can take the internet silence however you're inclined to take it.  However, it may just mean that no one has had time to respond to this news flash until now.  Internet discussion forums have a totally different concept of time than real life discussions.
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« Reply #386 on: May 22, 2009, 02:42:18 AM »

Thank you orthodoxlurker for posting the interfax link. It is interesting to see that this event is noted elsewhere also. Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki Undecided talk about barking up the wrong three.  Roll Eyes
I notice also that the Interfax article doesn't go into any detail regarding the official positions the Orthodox participants (outside of maybe Fr. Heikki Huttunen) have decided to represent in this conference.
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« Reply #387 on: May 22, 2009, 03:33:54 AM »

I do not think that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow are blind and dumb. They know what is going on. I get the feeling they are just waiting for the Finnish Church to "sit straight" (pun actually intended, sorry Cool

That's hilarious. Awesome pun. Smiley

Now to be serious, I agree with the quoted statement. I don't necessarily agree with the lack of verbal action and outcry from the EP (apparently the application of Canon 28 is more important than preventing heresy...okay back on track), but eventually they'll do something. I guess we can only pray that wisdom prevails. The Church lives on in the hearts of the true faithful that flee from the heretics. Hopefully there won't be any pillars of salt to clean up after they flee.
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« Reply #388 on: May 22, 2009, 07:09:13 AM »

Thank you orthodoxlurker for posting the interfax link. It is interesting to see that this event is noted elsewhere also. Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki Undecided talk about barking up the wrong three.  Roll Eyes
I notice also that the Interfax article doesn't go into any detail regarding the official positions the Orthodox participants (outside of maybe Fr. Heikki Huttunen) have decided to represent in this conference.

Peter you are HOPELESS. From the start I had to deal in this webste and forum A PERSONAL attack SYSTEMATICALLY doubting my credibility, my reliability no matter the DOZENS of proofs which were more than evidences. I have SYSTEMATICALLY been object to accusations that I present even elements which I MADE UP or a "dark mind" behind this is organizing gay conferences which "do not exist".

What you have managed to do is proof thet this FORUM as well as this WEBSITE is INFAMOUS and is pushing its views on the participants or it SCORNS those who disagree with the PERSONAL views of various "moderators" which by the way afe FAR from being Orthodox. Simply becasue they do not understand the simple thing that the participation of PRIESTS in an OFFICIAL ECUMENIST meeting CANNOT take place without the approval of the local bishop. The bishop had ALL THE TIME to stop these priests in the very same way the did with Fr Mitro Reppo about his particiapation in the elections but he didn't.

As to the heretical schoolbook it can be found from the internet and once you buy it you can get all the evidences you may need.

That's enough. Don't ruin the image of the forum even more. Cause from facebook messages and private messages that I got, people don't seem to appreciate what is going on.
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« Reply #389 on: May 22, 2009, 08:47:39 AM »

...The participation of Orthodox clergy in this event was never in question.
...

Good to finally see recognition of that fact. Hopefully nobody will mock Theopravlitos' efforts anymore.

Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki Undecided talk about barking up the wrong three.  Roll Eyes


Since Helsinki is an autonomous Church within Constantinoplean see, there is nothing wrong in their emphasize. Constantinopolis should be the first to react, or, should I say was supposed to react first when Finland, as part of Constantinopolis, placed herself under anathema by celebrating Easter on the date of her own choosing.

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« Reply #390 on: May 22, 2009, 10:27:21 AM »

Here is the whole news article from Interfax in case someone cannot connect with the link.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6046

21 May 2009, 17:38
Clerics of Constantinople Patriarchate to participate in a gay conference in Finland

Helsinki, May 21, Interfax - The clerics of the Finnish Orthodox Church of the Constantinople Patriarchate are going to participate in the European Forum of LGBT Christian Groups Conference Courage to Follow the Law of Love which opened Tuesday in Järvenpää and Helsinki, Finland.

The participants will begin every day by attending the Orthodox service, and then going to sauna, the social movement Yhteys (Unity) which is fighting for the rights of sexual minorities, reports.

May 22, Helsinki University will host the open church seminar which will address the issues of homosexual relations. According to a published schedule, General Secretary of the Finnish Ecumenical Council Archpriest Heikki Huttunen will present his paper Homosexuality in the Orthodox theology.

In January issue of Aamun Koitto, this well-known priest of the Finnish Orthodox Church addressed at length  his viewpoint on homosexual "marriage" as "the reflection of the Divine power and benign sexual source."

The clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate also intends to hold a discussion of the issues of spiritual integration of homosexuals into the Church. The subject matter of one session is entitled as Can a male priest fall in love to another man and live with him?
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« Reply #391 on: May 22, 2009, 10:31:48 AM »

Here is the whole news article from Interfax in case someone cannot connect with the link.

http://www.interfax-religion.com/?act=news&div=6046

21 May 2009, 17:38
Clerics of Constantinople Patriarchate to participate in a gay conference in Finland

Helsinki, May 21, Interfax - The clerics of the Finnish Orthodox Church of the Constantinople Patriarchate are going to participate in the European Forum of LGBT Christian Groups Conference Courage to Follow the Law of Love which opened Tuesday in Järvenpää and Helsinki, Finland.

The participants will begin every day by attending the Orthodox service, and then going to sauna, the social movement Yhteys (Unity) which is fighting for the rights of sexual minorities, reports.

May 22, Helsinki University will host the open church seminar which will address the issues of homosexual relations. According to a published schedule, General Secretary of the Finnish Ecumenical Council Archpriest Heikki Huttunen will present his paper Homosexuality in the Orthodox theology.

In January issue of Aamun Koitto, this well-known priest of the Finnish Orthodox Church addressed at length  his viewpoint on homosexual "marriage" as "the reflection of the Divine power and benign sexual source."

The clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate also intends to hold a discussion of the issues of spiritual integration of homosexuals into the Church. The subject matter of one session is entitled as Can a male priest fall in love to another man and live with him?
Thank you. This is indeed troubling. And I know what is coming next so I will address it now:
Theoprovlitos, if you had simply provided what Tamara did above, many would have had more of a reason to trust your allegations.
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« Reply #392 on: May 22, 2009, 10:48:59 AM »

Come on, man. It's Interfax. Unnamed 'clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate'?
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« Reply #393 on: May 22, 2009, 10:52:09 AM »

Come on, man. It's Interfax. Unnamed 'clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate'?
I am just saying that it looks better than what we have been given previously. Should I know something about interfax, that I am missing?
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« Reply #394 on: May 22, 2009, 11:13:42 AM »

"I guess you can take the internet silence however you're inclined to take it.  However, it may just mean that no one has had time to respond to this news flash until now.  Internet discussion forums have a totally different concept of time than real life discussions".

Point taken.

Theoprovlitos, be careful saying someone is "hopeless".  Possibly English is not your first language; this can cause communication challenges both in receiving and giving messages.  However, I commend you for your concern regarding our Faith. 

But personal jibes will only give food for the fodder for those who would want this stuff in Finland to fly under the radar- not that anyone here does per se.  Those who are concerned should forward this Interfax report to their Bishops and request them to contact the appropriate Heirarchs.  At the very least then you will have done about all you can accept to pray.
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« Reply #395 on: May 22, 2009, 08:46:55 PM »

The clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate also intends to hold a discussion of the issues of spiritual integration of homosexuals into the Church. The subject matter of one session is entitled as Can a male priest fall in love to another man and live with him?
Why do people automatically assume that just because some church group decides to discuss an issue, they must necessarily consider the issue potentially acceptable?  I run into this "We oppose it, so why even discuss it?" attitude far too often in the Church.  What if it turns out that the clergy discussing this matter will all answer the question of discussion with a very firm "NO!" and are only discussing how best to voice this "NO!"?
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« Reply #396 on: May 22, 2009, 09:29:27 PM »

In January issue of Aamun Koitto, this well-known priest of the Finnish Orthodox Church addressed at length  his viewpoint on
 homosexual "marriage" as "the reflection of the Divine power and benign sexual source."


I'd be very interested in seeing this article.  Is there any chance of obtaining an English translation?


As an aside,  I am a marriage celebrant for both the Church and the State (in New Zealand, Church marriage celebrants are all State registered so when we officiate at a wedding we have the dual role as a Christian priest and an agent of the Government.)

I am however forbidden by the Governemt from officiating at homosexual weddings.  At the time of the law legalising homosexual marriage, clergy were fobidden to officiate.  In order to qualify a priest/minister must pass a State interview to demonstrate that he is pro gay marriage. 

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« Reply #397 on: May 22, 2009, 10:07:30 PM »

Thank you orthodoxlurker for posting the interfax link. It is interesting to see that this event is noted elsewhere also. Unfortunately Interfax has chosen to blame Constantinople instead of Helsinki Undecided talk about barking up the wrong three.  Roll Eyes
I notice also that the Interfax article doesn't go into any detail regarding the official positions the Orthodox participants (outside of maybe Fr. Heikki Huttunen) have decided to represent in this conference.

Peter you are HOPELESS. From the start I had to deal in this webste and forum A PERSONAL attack SYSTEMATICALLY doubting my credibility, my reliability no matter the DOZENS of proofs which were more than evidences. I have SYSTEMATICALLY been object to accusations that I present even elements which I MADE UP or a "dark mind" behind this is organizing gay conferences which "do not exist".

What you have managed to do is proof thet this FORUM as well as this WEBSITE is INFAMOUS and is pushing its views on the participants or it SCORNS those who disagree with the PERSONAL views of various "moderators" which by the way afe FAR from being Orthodox. Simply becasue they do not understand the simple thing that the participation of PRIESTS in an OFFICIAL ECUMENIST meeting CANNOT take place without the approval of the local bishop. The bishop had ALL THE TIME to stop these priests in the very same way the did with Fr Mitro Reppo about his particiapation in the elections but he didn't.

As to the heretical schoolbook it can be found from the internet and once you buy it you can get all the evidences you may need.

That's enough. Don't ruin the image of the forum even more. Cause from facebook messages and private messages that I got, people don't seem to appreciate what is going on.

Friend, maybe I've missed the message.  Have you demonstrated that any Bishop of the Church of Finland and/or Archbishop Leo has condemned this meeting?

Since Finland is an autonomous Church, not even the EP can intervene.  So far, His All Holiness has made no official comment.  Therefore, whether you agree with the Church of Finland's stance towards homosexuals or not, do not expect His All Holiness to take a stand and stop this meeting because you disagree with its theories.  If the Church of Finland wants to fall into heresy, let it.
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« Reply #398 on: May 23, 2009, 10:32:37 AM »

If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 
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« Reply #399 on: May 23, 2009, 10:52:22 AM »

The clergy of Constantinople Patriarchate also intends to hold a discussion of the issues of spiritual integration of homosexuals into the Church. The subject matter of one session is entitled as Can a male priest fall in love to another man and live with him?
Why do people automatically assume that just because some church group decides to discuss an issue, they must necessarily consider the issue potentially acceptable?  I run into this "We oppose it, so why even discuss it?" attitude far too often in the Church.  What if it turns out that the clergy discussing this matter will all answer the question of discussion with a very firm "NO!" and are only discussing how best to voice this "NO!"?

If this conference is sponsored by Lutherans in Finland who believe practicing homosexual relationships are part of God's will for mankind, it is more than likely they are in agreement with any speakers who have been asked to join their meeting. In other words, they are not going to want to hear any words of dissent on what they believe to be true.

Anyway, time will tell. It will be interesting to see the results of this conference.
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« Reply #400 on: May 23, 2009, 11:42:24 AM »

If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 

If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
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« Reply #401 on: May 23, 2009, 05:20:58 PM »

If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 

If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #402 on: May 23, 2009, 11:54:09 PM »

If a person or church wants to fall into heresy, let them?  Possibly this was not phrased well.  Should our concern not be for our neighbor? 

If our neighbor refuses to listen, we can't force them.  Look at Pharaoh and Moses or even Arius and the Council of Nicaea.
About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. Roll Eyes

Very well said.
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« Reply #403 on: May 24, 2009, 10:05:30 AM »

About all we can do is break off communion with heretics.  I think churches have tried the idea of persecuting heretics with the idea of forcing them to recant.  Much good that did. Roll Eyes

It does pretty well. Perhaps the heretics don't recant, but persecution does limit their ability to spread their heresies. Look at how Russia, for example, has succeeded fairly well with resisting the onslaught of American Protestant missionaries compared to, say, Romania.
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« Reply #404 on: May 24, 2009, 08:03:43 PM »

We can pray for the Church of Finland to not fall into heresy.  That is all the lay can do.   Sad
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