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Poll
Question: Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 19 (26.8%)
Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to fight - 10 (14.1%)
Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates - 7 (9.9%)
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity - 20 (28.2%)
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 15 (21.1%)
Total Voters: 71

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Author Topic: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread  (Read 69771 times) Average Rating: 0
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #315 on: May 15, 2009, 02:44:46 PM »

Can I be a little uncourteous and ask why other people's sinful laundry are being aired publicaly?

Should we not in an act of Orthodox love hide our fellow brethren's trespasses and pray to God to give them enlightenment? If anything, if it is a serious problem ... one should go direct to their hierarchies with the proper ecclesiastical formalities and if as a response we do not achieve what we hoped in an act of obedience ..... stop there and continue in prayer to God.


What good does publicising others sins do other than to bring shame, gossip and evil into the equation?

Our ends do not justify our means ... I was reading Saint Silouan where Arch. Sophrony mentions that the Saint would say (something along the lines of) if good is not employed to achieve good then the end result is not truly good ...

God Bless.

Soufliotiki

What you have suggested has ALL been done since many years ago. First these guys have received many protests and letter from faithful in private. Then the leaders of the Finnish Orthodox CHurch have been asked to interfere and stop this mess for the good of the Church. They didn't do ANYTHING, simply because they more or less agree with that trash. Then the Church of Russia has been informed by many believers and they responded by expressing their concern about what is going on with the Church of Finland. The Church of Greece and of Crete have also been informed as well as the Ecumenical Patriarchate who send an official letter to the Synod of the Church of Finland. Because the Synod of Church of Finland is of course fully guilty they send an official reply to the Ecumenical Patriarchate which wsa full of lies and false explenations.

Of course the EP could not call them lieres and had no other option but accept their letter as true. Since then that was it! The rotten people among the Finnish Church came out openly and aggressively with their activity. In one word: UNCONTROLABLE.

More protests by people were ignored so there was no other way than bringing this to PUBLICITY and presenting their works of darkness so that it becomes a Panorthodox issue and so that the faithfil in Finland will stop being spiritually adn emotionally abused by the heretics.

What you are suggesting is that in case we have a priest in the church who is an offender pretend not to see him abuse children adn cover it up so that we don't make his sin public? Is that that you suggest.

However this is NOT the case. Nobody published if a bishop is homosexual or with whom does he go to bed, or if he leads an immoral life. We are talking about HERESY, alteration of Orthodox dogmas and ethics and keeping out mouth shut would make us as guilty as themselves.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #316 on: May 15, 2009, 03:15:40 PM »

Theoprovlitos,

Thank you for your very enlightening, yet disturbing post.  I did a quick search on this issue and found an interesting article from an interesting site:  http://www.rainbowchristians.com/articles/entry/Homosexuality-issue-Complicating-Relationships-Between-the-Orthodox-in-Russia-and-Finland

The only caution I would add is not to jump to the conclusion that if someone has a hard time digesting that an Orthodox church is accepting of the perversion of homosexuality, that they themselves struggle with it.  It may be for example age:  many of those over about sixty have a hard time believing that an O. Church would begin to tolerate sodomy.  But remember that the O. Church in Finland is small, and it is a State church (along with the "Lutheran church" there).  Therefore the O. Church in Finland has the choice:  either accept the tolerant agenda of liberal Scandanavia, or suffer persecution for the sake of Christ.  For whoever loves Christ keeps His commandments.

Dear Aristobolus

Thanks for your support because it seems some people are determined to wither me. However UNFORTUNATELY no matter what you say is true this is not the case with Finland. These people many of them which I happen to know are not ready to suffer any persecution for the sake of Christ. On the contrary, THEY are persecuting those who protest.
Second many of them are openly homosexuals themselves, one of them is married with a man, and their agent is to introduce homosexuality in the church using even "theological" arguments for it which are of course fallacies. And they are so rotten that for example the Theological Secretary of the Archbishop Leo, Jyrki Harkonen, member of the Ecumenist Gay Organization Yhteys and friends of the Orthodox Gay Group "Sateenkaariseura" has pulished in the latter one one terrible text in which he blackmails the Orthodox Church (his OWN Church which from he is getting paid)to accept homosexuality otherwise the state should stop funding the Orthodox Church! As we say in Greek "If you have friends like than then you don't need any enemies".

An in order to understand to understand that these peopel are not only HERETICS but also RUTHLESS, a Finnish Lutheran pastoress, president of Yhteys organization recently performed a lesbian wedding in the Luthern Church WITHOUT PERMISSION from the Lutheran bishop and registered the wedding as legal. And because a) Civil gay weddings are allowed by the Finnish State b) Religious weddings are also officialy and automatically registered, now there is a problem with the bishop to invalidate the lesbian religious wedding which is already valid according to the Finnish state. We are talking about rebellion against her own bishop and contempt towards the Finnish Lutheran faithful who disagree. And this woman-pastoress is supposed to be the representative of God on earth. Good heavens!

And what is the position of the Orthodox to the above. The Orthodox priest of the diocese of Helsinki Heiiki Huttunen and General Secretary of the Finnish Ecumenist Counsil collaborates with her, they are both active members in the group Yhteys and they made up together the programme of the international Gay Christian Forum, with the blessing of the local Orthodox bishop who was/is going to participate as a lecturer in that conference.

I am afraid we really have to deal with the wolf's nest.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #317 on: May 15, 2009, 03:19:17 PM »


Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

Jake is right. There is nothing wrong with sauna. It is their national bath since in the past 6 moths of the year there wasn't running water to wash oneself so I guess the climate was an important factor for the invention of sauna.

However I must admit that a... gay sauna does have a touch of 'spice' in it. I guess they will be admiring eachother's beauty.
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« Reply #318 on: May 15, 2009, 03:26:03 PM »


Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

Jake is right. There is nothing wrong with sauna. It is their national bath since in the past 6 moths of the year there wasn't running water to wash oneself so I guess the climate was an important factor for the invention of sauna.

However I must admit that a... gay sauna does have a touch of 'spice' in it. I guess they will be admiring eachother's beauty.
ewwwwwww. Sounds pretty raunchy.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 03:26:23 PM by Papist » Logged

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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #319 on: May 15, 2009, 03:54:04 PM »


These statements may provide some insight: the Lutheran Church in Finland recently had a group of its fundamentalists leave and register an alternative Lutheran Church.

Secondly, the Lutherans in Finland still have sour grapes over the fact that that Archbishop Ambrosius of the Finnish Orthodox Church left the Lutheran Church to convert to Orthodoxy.  He is a very personable man, a gifted linguist and and well educated with graduate degrees in both theology and political science.

I met him at the University of Toronto a number of years ago when he was the keynote speaker at a Conferece "Orthodoxy in Finland" organized by the Finnish Studies Department of the University of Toronto.  The conference attracted people interested in Finnish Studies plus a large group of people who were of the Orthodox faith and interested in Orthodoxy.  One of the university professors told me that the Lutherans in Finland were very upset about Archbishop Ambrosius converting to Orthodoxy and the romours had spread that he was homosexual and that the monastery "New Valamo" was filled with homosexuals.  I myself doubt that there is any truth to the rumours about the monastery or Archbishop Ambrosius whom I thought was a very sincere and spiritual man.

Jade

No question that Metropolitan Ambnrosius IS talented. Here's one more to his credit: He organized the second more succesful exhbition in the history of the Art Museum of Helsinki, on the treasures of Mt Athos. Thusands of Orthodox and non-orthodox ( I think even the Finnish president) have visited. He has very good taste and he is active. His name is well known in the Finnish society.

However this has NOTHING to do with his being a heretic or a Freemason. Besides most heretics must have been opinion leaders, talented and gifted otherwise they would have made their names known as founders of heresies. It is either out of PRIDE and self-appreciation that they ended up heretical because they had the delusion of "Changing things to the 'better'" or simply the evil one seeing that they are talented managed to gradually switvh their talents AGAINST the church and make them work for him while they were believing they were serving 'God'.

Another person like this is Fr Heikki Huttunen. Yiu just don't become the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of the Churches of Finland if you are not talented. Knowing him in person nd having cooperated with him BEFORE he took the path to perdition I can tell that he edned up introducing heresies due to his PRIDE to change the church adn the society. And unfortunatelly being a 'spiritual' father he has ruined a lot of people and among them a very good friend of mine.

PRIDE and lack of humbleness is their problem at first palce and the rest follow. That WE are going to show the res tof the world who we are.

About homosexuality his aim was to rach people who suffer from this and tell them that there is a place for them in Heaven too. His intentions are good. However if these intentions do not come along with CORRECT FAITH, ORTHODOX Dogmas and Orthodox pastoral care but they have been defiled by worldly humanistic ideas then instead of doing good to those people you are RUINING THEM becasue the Gospel says you'd rather be warm or cold, but becasue you are lukewarm I will vomit you.

About Valaam, do not confuse someone's sexual tendecies or practices with dogmas and role. Currently Valaam is the ONLY hope of the Church of Finland also thanks to its abbot Fr Sergei. Also the assistant bishop Fr Arseni who comes from Valam so far has not got involved his name with all that trush. Also Fr Isidoros the Estonian has lived for years in MT Athos even alone in the wilderness.

BUT yes, there have been several cases with homosexuals in Valaam. Recently a novice lef the monastery in love with a (was he canadian or Dutch) guest, another monk who left Valaam to found his oun skete and spiritual centre was arrested and convicted as a sexual offender of young men.

You see I keep repeating over nd over that the problem is NOT homosexuality but the HERESY. Someone might be homosexual, somebody else an adulterer, someonew hot tempered, gluttonous, a thief etc. I mean NOBODY is perfect and infalable. But their non-Orthodox worldview and Luthern mindset does not let them make a distinction between a sinful or suffering person with the sin ITSELF. In the protestant worldview either you are good and saved or bad and you perish. Either a saint or a monster. And this is why according to that mentality a homosexual in order to be christian he HAS to be good, and so they justify homosexuality so that homosexuals may have some palce in the kingdom of God.

Metropolitan Ambrosius sincere, yes. Spiritual, forget about it. Or at least he is as spiritual as Arius. No question Arius was spiritual but this didn't preventing him to become the founder of some if the worse heresies in the history of Christianity


MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church  -PtA
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 05:19:50 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
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« Reply #320 on: May 15, 2009, 04:02:34 PM »


Just visit the Finnish Orthodox Monastery of New Valamo and you will find a sauna right by the lake.  It is a part of their culture and nothing evil.

Jake is right. There is nothing wrong with sauna. It is their national bath since in the past 6 moths of the year there wasn't running water to wash oneself so I guess the climate was an important factor for the invention of sauna.

However I must admit that a... gay sauna does have a touch of 'spice' in it. I guess they will be admiring eachother's beauty.
ewwwwwww. Sounds pretty raunchy.

I've been in the Banya with quite a few Finns, and let me say that I've never met one whom nature hasn't well endowed.  There is nothing like the feeling of one of them, standing there in their masculine glory - dowsed in sweat, holding a birch branch.  They start lightly thrashing you with the birch branch - it's customary to get the circulation moving.  Ah, the feeling of that birch rubbing all over one's naked body and the sudden release (proper technique is to build up momentum, to loose yourself in rapture and then release all at once with the birch).  The sauna is always so much fun.  BTW, every sauna I've been in also performs abortions and has pews.    
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« Reply #321 on: May 15, 2009, 04:08:24 PM »

BTW, every sauna I've been in also performs abortions and has pews.

Abortions are one thing, but PEWS!?!?!?!
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Jake
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« Reply #322 on: May 15, 2009, 04:17:51 PM »

Theoprovlitos, you have not provided any evidence at all that Archbishoop Ambrosius is a homosexual, that he is organizing a "Gay" conference in Helsinki or even that he is a Free Mason.

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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #323 on: May 15, 2009, 04:56:51 PM »

Theoprovlitos, you have not provided any evidence at all that Archbishoop Ambrosius is a homosexual, that he is organizing a "Gay" conference in Helsinki or even that he is a Free Mason.



Did I say he is gay? And even if I know it I am not going to say it because it becomes personal. About the conference I provided a link where his name clearly appeared on the list as a lecturer and at least two of his priests participate there. I do not know if you are Orthodox, but in the Orthdoox priests need to have some blessing in order to particiapte is such events, especially as orgnizers or lectirers. The programm has been publishes since quite some time now.

About his being a Freemason well there is no way to discover that unless someone breaks in their records or he publically confesses it. Freemasons are not that kind of groups where anybody has access to their records.
However I have been told that he has publicly said that beeing Freemason is not opposed to being Orthdox while the Holy Synod of Greece ( I don't know about Russians) clearly condemend Freemasonry as a cult and many other things. So I wander for what other reason would Metropolitan Ambrosius host a Freemason & Orthdox meeting unless he is really out of reality and believes that all of sudden freemasons will bcome Orthodox in mass and reject freemasonry or even worse, introduce it in the Orthodox Church.

By the way, Metropolitan Ambrosius has also spoken positively for the ordination of women in the Orthdox Church in Helsinki Sanomat, the most popular Finnish newspaper. One more open front against the Orthdox tradition and dogmas.



MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church.  Theoprovlitos, regardless of what you think personally about any bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ, we at OC.net expect that the episcopal office will still be held in the highest regard.  Therefore, we ask that a bishop's name always be accompanied by his title.  Thank you.  -PtA
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Jake
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« Reply #324 on: May 15, 2009, 05:19:00 PM »

Theoprovlitos, you have not provided any evidence at all that Archbishoop Ambrosius is a homosexual, that he is organizing a "Gay" conference in Helsinki or even that he is a Free Mason.



Did I say he is gay? And even if I know it I am not going to say it because it becomes personal. About the conference I provided a link where his name clearly appeared on the list as a lecturer and at least two of his priests participate there. I do not know if you are Orthodox, but in the Orthdoox priests need to have some blessing in order to particiapte is such events, especially as orgnizers or lectirers. The programm has been publishes since quite some time now.


You are the person who started this thread and chose the title:
 ( Re: ORTHODOX BISHOP OF FINLAND ORGANIZES ECUMENIST GAY CONFERENCE ).

But you provided no proof at all that Archbishop Ambrosius of Helsinki organized a "gay" conference.

So the title of this thread is misinformation.

The same can be said about the thread regarding Free Masons.  An Orthodox Bishop did not organize their meeting.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #325 on: May 15, 2009, 05:37:14 PM »

Jake

It seems that you have to go back and check all the links. A gay heretical event that takes place in his diocese, with him participating as a lecturer and at least two of his most important Orthdox priests as lecturers and members of the organizing committee, yes he is the mastermind behind it.

If the church has organizations in it (e.g. Charity, Aid to third world, Choir etc) and these organizations that function under the umbrella of the Diocese particiapte in forums and conferences it is the Diocese that particaipate if not directly, undireclty for sure.

Unless Anbrosius has lost control of his diocese and his priest and church memebrs do whatever they like and they completely ignore him while he is completly unainble to put some order in his own home. It is one thing or another. There is no third alternative solution.

A bishop cannot participate or send his priests particiapte e.g. in scheduled human sacrifice ceremonies and then claim that these practices have nothing to do with his diocese. This is underestimation of our intelligence.
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« Reply #326 on: May 15, 2009, 05:39:50 PM »

In the protestant worldview either you are good and saved or bad and you perish.
Interesting. I've usually heard this straw man argument being used by Protestans and against Catholics. It's rather refreshing to see it being used against the Protestants and even by an Orthodox. Grin
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« Reply #327 on: May 15, 2009, 05:46:51 PM »

MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church.  Theoprovlitos, regardless of what you think personally about any bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ, we at OC.net expect that the episcopal office will still be held in the highest regard.  Therefore, we ask that a bishop's name always be accompanied by his title.  Thank you.  -PtA
[/quote]

The bishop's title has been omitted not out of direspect to his scheme but for brevity's sake and quick typing, in the same way as we say in spoken language Bartholomew or Alexius speaking of the Patriarchs once their identity and title have been mentioned before and they are evident
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« Reply #328 on: May 15, 2009, 05:55:23 PM »

MODERATION:  Title added to each mention of Metropolitan Ambrosius's name in order to maintain proper respect for the episcopal office of the Orthodox Church.  Theoprovlitos, regardless of what you think personally about any bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ, we at OC.net expect that the episcopal office will still be held in the highest regard.  Therefore, we ask that a bishop's name always be accompanied by his title.  Thank you.  -PtA

The bishop's title has been omitted not out of direspect to his scheme but for brevity's sake and quick typing, in the same way as we say in spoken language Bartholomew or Alexius speaking of the Patriarchs once their identity and title have been mentioned before and they are evident
[/quote]
That doesn't matter.  I have notified you of what forum policy is regarding the respect we are to give our bishops in forum communications.  This is not up for discussion.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #329 on: May 15, 2009, 05:56:34 PM »


You have more than twice now alleged that those who question your credibility and your sources are in league to shut you up because they support Freemasonry and the introduction of homosexuality into the Church.  I'm not aware that anyone whom you have accused has ever admitted to any such motive.  So you have 48 hours to either publicly recant your slanderous accusations and apologize to those you have accused or face the consequences of slandering members of this forum (i.e., formal warning/post moderation).

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First of all I would like to know who runs and owns this place. I mean there has to be ONE person legaly and moraly responsible befroe the law for what is going on in here because I see TOO many free-lance moderators and I am not supposed to reply to ANYONE who demads it unless I WANT to. ESPECIALLY when he demands it. Therefore I will answer the rest once my question will be answered.
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #330 on: May 15, 2009, 06:06:33 PM »


That doesn't matter.  I have notified you of what forum policy is regarding the respect we are to give our bishops in forum communications.  This is not up for discussion.

Respect doesn't come from titles but from the way one behaves to others, especially toawards those one does not necessarily agree with. In any case I am the one being exposed and not the forum, unless the forum agrees with everyone who writes in here or everyone has to agree with the forum. I guess free speach is among the values which the American democracy was build on. Besides, for the sake of free religious rights which are practiced int he United States if I am a Jew or an atheist or a Muslim I am not even obliged to call people of other dogmas with their religious tiltes, since they might not reflect my religious views unless they are being violated.
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« Reply #331 on: May 15, 2009, 06:09:23 PM »


You have more than twice now alleged that those who question your credibility and your sources are in league to shut you up because they support Freemasonry and the introduction of homosexuality into the Church.  I'm not aware that anyone whom you have accused has ever admitted to any such motive.  So you have 48 hours to either publicly recant your slanderous accusations and apologize to those you have accused or face the consequences of slandering members of this forum (i.e., formal warning/post moderation).

- PeterTheAleut
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First of all I would like to know who runs and owns this place. I mean there has to be ONE person legaly and moraly responsible befroe the law for what is going on in here because I see TOO many free-lance moderators and I am not supposed to reply to ANYONE who demads it unless I WANT to. ESPECIALLY when he demands it. Therefore I will answer the rest once my question will be answered.
As I mentioned earlier, if you want to question my moderation of this Christian News board, the people you need to talk to are the Global Moderators (and my direct supervisors), cleveland and Veniamin.  Moderators do not act alone on the OC.net forum.  We work together as a somewhat structured team.  You should also avail yourself of some time to familiarize yourself with forum policy, which can be read on the following pages:
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« Reply #332 on: May 15, 2009, 06:12:03 PM »


That doesn't matter.  I have notified you of what forum policy is regarding the respect we are to give our bishops in forum communications.  This is not up for discussion.

Respect doesn't come from titles but from the way one behaves to others, especially toawards those one does not necessarily agree with. In any case I am the one being exposed and not the forum, unless the forum agrees with everyone who writes in here or everyone has to agree with the forum. I guess free speach is among the values which the American democracy was build on. Besides, for the sake of free religious rights which are practiced int he United States if I am a Jew or an atheist or a Muslim I am not even obliged to call people of other dogmas with their religious tiltes, since they might not reflect my religious views unless they are being violated.
As I said, this is not up for discussion.  If you question my moderatorial instructions on this thread one more time, you will be placed on Post Moderation.  Send cleveland or Veniamin a private message, instead.
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« Reply #333 on: May 15, 2009, 06:36:42 PM »

Then the problem is that one cannot know from the start who are the modertors and how many there are. And if necessarily they all agree with each other -not on the policy of the forum (obviously there has to be some)- but on their PERSONAL views. I don't feel confortable in a forum being a mouse among many cats who wait behind every corner.
And I guess that when one expresses an opinion obviously not ALL moderators are going to agree. Am I, or are we subject of each moderator's personal views?

My protest is -and has been form the start- that I have been in an orchstrated way accused for a fraud no matter many evidences, links as well as testimonies of other people that "there is something rotten in the Kingdom of Finland".

I wrote here in order to present some NEWS and FACTS no matter not pleasant for none of us, including myself. I am not here to argue with anyone ( I have MUCH moe important things to do) and I realy don't see a reason why I am being attacked unless I am lead to the rational conclusion that I am being scorned not becasue what I am saying is not true but because it IS.

I understand that OCnet has to maintain a good name or protect itself from risks but diplomacy and political correctness is not always a virtue theologically speaking. Especially if the aim of this site is the protection and promotion of Orthodoxy and not an aim in itself.
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« Reply #334 on: May 15, 2009, 06:42:29 PM »

I am trying to find a link to Veniamin or cleveland
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« Reply #335 on: May 15, 2009, 06:51:33 PM »

I don't know, am I supposed to answer this? Why Orestis isn't appologizing for accusing me for misleading people in this forum in other words that I am a fraud? And once this is cleared that I am, then I may appoligize both for my "lies" as well as my "accusations". For I was the one to be offended FIRST.

Orestis

Peopel who do not WANT to believe they selectively see what they WANT to see. You do not even speak Finnish adn you know nothing about the issue but yuo are easily claime that all the data which I present are "misleading".

Then in this case you belong to the same team who wants to make people SHUT UP  becuase they protest for teh grdual indrodcution of homosecyality in the church.

I left even more links above and waiting for answers. Though I suspect that I am rather going to get excuses and evasions
 Theoprovlitos,
More than 48 hours ago, you were given 48 hours to recant your accusations that those who have here questioned your sources are acting on a secret agenda to introduce Freemasonry and homosexuality into the Church and to apologize to those you accused.  You have not done so yet; in fact, you have done the exact opposite by continuing to make these accusations.  Therefore, you are receiving this formal warning for slanderous ad hominems against members of this forum.  If you continue to make such accusations, you will be placed on post moderation, which means that your posts will need to be approved by a moderator before they appear on the forum.  If you feel this warning is in error, feel free to use the private messaging system to appeal my decision to either cleveland or Veniamin.
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« Reply #336 on: May 15, 2009, 06:56:12 PM »

OC.net hates true Orthodoxy!
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« Reply #337 on: May 15, 2009, 07:05:51 PM »

OC.net hates true Orthodoxy!

I don't know anymore what to think. This is so sad...
Are you under Bishop Longin? May I ask what is/was your religious background?
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« Reply #338 on: May 15, 2009, 07:16:26 PM »

http://www.vantaa.fi/en/i_perusdokumentti.asp?path=1;135;137;2620;218;58993;1858;29614;75210;75231

The church's attitude towards homosexuality has become more tolerant.
 
The Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland

In a “Shepherd letter” written in 1966 under the title Ajankohtainen asia (A Topical Issue), the bishops of the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland spoke of homosexuality as a sin. In 1975, the Church Research Institute published a study that defended the right of homosexuals to hold positions within the Church. The study met with a lot of criticism within the Church, including in the General Synod. In the 1980s, the bishops no longer called homosexuality a sin, although they did imply that the Church might not allow active homosexuals among it employees. In 1993, archbishop John Vikström was accused of heresy because of his positive views regarding gay and lesbian people. His case was later reviewed by the diocesan chapter of Turku.

 The dismissal on grounds of homosexuality of the Vanhakirkko parish youth worker Seppo Kivistö in 1974 started the public debate on the attitude of the church towards homosexuality. Demonstration in Vanhakirkko church park. Veli Hyvärinen. Private collection.

In recent years, there has also been pro-homosexual activity within the Church. The Kallio parish (Kallion seurakunta) in Helsinki has since year 1999 officially embraced rainbow people in its spiritual work. The first Rainbow Vesper service was held in 1999 at Helsinki Cathedral Chapel. In the 21st century, Rainbow Masses have been held in connection with Gay Pride events in Vaasa, Helsinki and Tampere. An ecumenical group called Yhteys (Alliance) is working to promote more liberal attitudes towards sexual and gender minorities within the Church. This is also one of the goals of Tulkaa kaikki (Everybody Come), a group that campaigned actively in the 2006 parish elections.


The Finnish Orthodox Church

In its official statements, the Finnish Orthodox Church has a negative stand on homosexuality. In a comment on registered partnerships in 1992, the Episcopal Conference stated that “the Christian understanding of a family must not be undermined or blurred by extending the concept of family to include constructions that are alien to the Christian ones”. In the late 1990s, the Episcopal Conference concluded that “the goal of ridding the society of injustice is a just one”. In their opinion, however, these attempts to improve the status of gay and lesbian couples should not lead to a situation where their partnerships are equated with “traditional families”.

Overall, the topic of homosexuality has not stirred the same kind of heated debate within the Orthodox Church as it has within the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Some Orthodox clergy have blessed the homes of gay and lesbian couples, and some have even agreed to the blessing of same-sex unions. On the other hand, there have also been isolated cases of parishioners being denied communion because of their same-sex partnerships.

 
Christian movements

The first Christian group for gay and lesbian people came into being in the context of Seta in the mid 1970s. This was later followed by another Christian group of Seta, Malkus, which has remained active ever since it was founded in Helsinki in 1981. In the course of the years, there have also been Christian groups in Tampere and Turku. In addition, there is a group called Arcus for church employees and active members of the parish who belong to a sexual minority.

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« Reply #339 on: May 15, 2009, 07:17:29 PM »

I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
Quote
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html
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« Reply #340 on: May 15, 2009, 08:13:50 PM »

I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
Quote
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this

The registration of parishioners as same-sex couples does not constitute a problem, according to Archbishop Leo.
[Note: In Finland, in order to officially belong to any church whatsoever, you need to register.]

"To anyone who wishes to participate in parishional and liturgical life, no questions are asked about their family status.

According to Leo, socio-ethical issues are to a large degree a matter of culture.

"Especially in Eastern Europe, the Church leaderships are obliged to maintain a balance, on account of the demands of noisy extremist fundamentalist organizations. Among these circles, liberalism is not fashionable.”

(this is obviously an insult towards other churches and nations since among those noisy, extremist, fundamentalists happen to be the Heads of several Orthodox Churches, to begin with the Patriarch of Mosow)

According to Leo, the Orthodox Church is very careful when handling matters pertaining to homosexuality."

Those who are registered as a couple with a person of the same sex cannot be accepted in the ranks of priesthood. But for associates and workers from the laity, we do not place the same criteria."

Which practically means acceptance and moral justification of homosexual marriages and full participation gay marreid couples in Church liturgical life without any problem and even as workers of the Church. In other words a woman may work in the morning as the bishop's secretary and at night as a whore without a problem!


And yet 6 months later here is the program of the Ecumenist Gay Conference Organized by the Ecumensit Gay group Yhteys with the particiaption of several priests and the Bishop of Helsinki Ambrosius

"Can male priest love and live with a man? Discussion with an introduction by an orthodox priest working in southern Finland." I bet their answer is YES. And do I know that priest!

And here some more from the very same conference where the Orthodox FULLY particiapate with the blessings of the local Bishop who was/is going to particiapte in the conference.

Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life. Non-trans people welcome too!
Eeva Järvinen is a Lutheran pastor, a trans feminist theologian who delights in God and in the world He has created. Her particular favourite theological subjects are God's limitless love for people, His infinite patience with humans (which she does not share, unfortunately), sanctification of God's children and our role as God's warm hands here in the world. She earns her living as an IT and communications specialist, as her bishop is not too keen on trans women and even less on lesbian priests who marry other lesbians. Computers and other people don't seem to mind, and she's hoping the bishops will come to their senses finally, too.

What worries me is this

Future Strategy

As you can see A LOT can happen within 6 months since last November, and obviously to the worse.
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« Reply #341 on: May 15, 2009, 08:51:50 PM »

I don't know anymore what to think. This is so sad...
Are you under Bishop Longin? May I ask what is/was your religious background?

I was being sarcastic.  OC.net loves true Orthodoxy! 

I am under His Grace +LONGIN.  He is very traditional.  He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 08:52:04 PM by Alveus Lacuna » Logged
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« Reply #342 on: May 15, 2009, 08:58:35 PM »

I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
Quote
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this


You are not being fair.  I was quoting this article here:
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Metropolitan Leo states says that an Orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship and that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition.

This is a direct quote from the Metropolitan that affirms Orthodox teaching on homosexuality.
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« Reply #343 on: May 16, 2009, 01:33:35 AM »

I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.
For purpose of fairness, seeing that you essentially accused Theoprovlitos of opening a second account in violation of forum policy--I trust wholeheartedly that you didn't mean to Wink--that thread appears to have been started by someone totally unrelated to Theoprovlitos who merely cited Theoprovlitos's blog in the OP.
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« Reply #344 on: May 16, 2009, 01:38:52 AM »

I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

From last year's post, I think this article mentioned by someone from Finland is important.  The writer states that the head of the Finnish Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Leo maintains the traditional orthodox stance:
Quote
http://www.hs.fi/tulosta/1135241059236
Archbishop Leo Denies Gay Priests can Live together.
Arkkipiispa Leo: "Ortodoksipappi ei voi elää rekisteröidyssä parisuhteessa"

That interview practically says that an orthodox priest cannot live in a homosexual relationship. Furthermore, His Grace ( is this the correct title? ) has said earlier that the homosexual relationships are not part of the Orthodox Tradition. It seems that the heretical gay mafia has had quite a little success in it's manipulation.  
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,18525.0.html

I am affraid that the text of your link does not contain the FULL text of the Archbishops statement which after publicity and complaints has been "shortened" the original text goes liek this

The registration of parishioners as same-sex couples does not constitute a problem, according to Archbishop Leo.
[Note: In Finland, in order to officially belong to any church whatsoever, you need to register.]

"To anyone who wishes to participate in parishional and liturgical life, no questions are asked about their family status.

According to Leo, socio-ethical issues are to a large degree a matter of culture.

"Especially in Eastern Europe, the Church leaderships are obliged to maintain a balance, on account of the demands of noisy extremist fundamentalist organizations. Among these circles, liberalism is not fashionable.”

(this is obviously an insult towards other churches and nations since among those noisy, extremist, fundamentalists happen to be the Heads of several Orthodox Churches, to begin with the Patriarch of Mosow)

According to Leo, the Orthodox Church is very careful when handling matters pertaining to homosexuality."

Those who are registered as a couple with a person of the same sex cannot be accepted in the ranks of priesthood. But for associates and workers from the laity, we do not place the same criteria."

Which practically means acceptance and moral justification of homosexual marriages and full participation gay marreid couples in Church liturgical life without any problem and even as workers of the Church. In other words a woman may work in the morning as the bishop's secretary and at night as a whore without a problem!


And yet 6 months later here is the program of the Ecumenist Gay Conference Organized by the Ecumensit Gay group Yhteys with the particiaption of several priests and the Bishop of Helsinki Ambrosius

"Can male priest love and live with a man? Discussion with an introduction by an orthodox priest working in southern Finland." I bet their answer is YES. And do I know that priest!

And here some more from the very same conference where the Orthodox FULLY particiapate with the blessings of the local Bishop who was/is going to particiapte in the conference.

Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life. Non-trans people welcome too!
Eeva Järvinen is a Lutheran pastor, a trans feminist theologian who delights in God and in the world He has created. Her particular favourite theological subjects are God's limitless love for people, His infinite patience with humans (which she does not share, unfortunately), sanctification of God's children and our role as God's warm hands here in the world. She earns her living as an IT and communications specialist, as her bishop is not too keen on trans women and even less on lesbian priests who marry other lesbians. Computers and other people don't seem to mind, and she's hoping the bishops will come to their senses finally, too.

What worries me is this

Future Strategy

As you can see A LOT can happen within 6 months since last November, and obviously to the worse.
Can you give us a link to the online copy of this statement?
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« Reply #345 on: May 16, 2009, 07:09:18 AM »

He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Now this is interesting. I've had a same kind of lesson about obedience but because of totally opposite reason: I'd like to be baptised! But it's customary not to baptise converts in Finland if they are already baptised in some other Christian denomination and I was baptised as an nfant into the Lutheran Church.
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« Reply #346 on: May 16, 2009, 09:58:46 AM »

He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Now this is interesting. I've had a same kind of lesson about obedience but because of totally opposite reason: I'd like to be baptised! But it's customary not to baptise converts in Finland if they are already baptised in some other Christian denomination and I was baptised as an nfant into the Lutheran Church.

Three baptisms It is strange indeed. My wife was about to be chrismated only, but the Greek bishop suggested that she would be baptized which she finaly did especially when we remembered that her ex godmother belonged to a cult croup and she wan't a practicing chirstian anymore.

I know that in Finland converts are not allowed to be baptised and this is why many go to other countries or Mt Athos. The truth is however that the creed used at the first baptims also includes the fallacy of Filioque and it gives a good reason to be baptized again, though I am not claiming that those who were not baptised again are not Orthodox.

I would suggest Alpo if he really wants to have that experience to visit a Monastery in Mt Athos, Greece or any other country to do so.
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« Reply #347 on: May 16, 2009, 10:31:18 AM »

I see from the archives that this topic has been discussed last year in 2008 with Theoprovlitos starting the thread with unfounded accusations.
For purpose of fairness, seeing that you essentially accused Theoprovlitos of opening a second account in violation of forum policy--I trust wholeheartedly that you didn't mean to Wink--that thread appears to have been started by someone totally unrelated to Theoprovlitos who merely cited Theoprovlitos's blog in the OP.

You are quite right.  I made a mistake in thinking that Theoprovlitos started the thread.
I am sorry for my error.
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« Reply #348 on: May 16, 2009, 10:41:38 AM »

soufliotiki, airing these problems publicly can get hierarchs of other Orthodox bodies like the Russian Orthodox Church to voice their dismay, which has often been a powerful tool in suppressing modernist innovations. Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.
I think it has been suggested that all this bad publicity for the Finnish Orthodox Church may be a cover for the Moscow Patriarchate to take over or move into Finland with its own churches.  The Finnish Orthodox Church is currently under Constantinople.
This article was in today's Helsinki newspaper:

Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox church grows in Helsinki


Two Orthodox Christian congregations in Helsinki affiliated with the Russian ecclesiastical tradition have grown in the Helsinki region in recent years.

      The congregations of St. Nicholas and Pokrova, which fall under the Moscow Patriarchate, have about 2,000 members. The membership has been growing at a rate of about 150 a year.

      About 75 per cent of the members registered in the congregations are citizens of Finland.

      The Finnish Orthodox Church disengaged from the Russian Orthodox Church in 1923. However, some of the Orthodox in Finland wanted to retain Russian ways, and the use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy, and they set up their own congregation.

     When the Finish Orthodox Church decided in 1927 to reject the old Julian calendar, the Russian Orthodox in Finland set up their own congregation - that of St. Nicholas.

      After the Second World War Stalin began to use the Russian Orthodox Church as a way of advancing his foreign policy goals. There were calls from Moscow for the Finnish Orthodox Church to join the Moscow Patriarchate.

      Support for the idea from the Finnish far left made many church members wary of the proposal, and it was rejected. In 1957 the Holy Synod of Moscow recognised the status of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
     
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, immigration from Russia to Finland has increased, swelling the membership of the Moscow-affiliated congregations in Finland.

      The congregations remain small compared with the whole Finnish Orthodox Church, which shares a special status in Finnish society with the Evangelical-Lutheran Church. The Helsinki Orthodox Congregation has about 19,000 members.
     
The St. Nicholas Congregation wants to build a new Orthodox Church in Itäkeskus, in the east of Helsinki next to the Stoa culture centre. However, it has not yet been granted a building permit.
      "I believe that our congregation will continue to grow. When the church in Itäkeskus is ready, we can increase youth activities and church services", says Orest Chervinski, dean of the Congregation of St. Nicholas.

      The congregation is celebrating its 80th anniversary on Friday, with Metropolitan Cyril of the foreign section of the Moscow Patriarchate taking part in a service held on Friday morning at the Church of St. Nicholas at Helsinki's Hietaniemi Cemetery.

      Taking part in the event were Metropolitan Ambrosius and Archbishop Leo of the Helsinki Orthodox diocese.
     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

      "It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.
      Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

      Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.
      "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

      Orthodox immigrants are very welcome in the Finnish Orthodox Church, Ambrosius says.
      "We have actively sought to reach out to Russian immigrants. All those who have come to our congregation have been accepted."


Previously in HS International Edition:
   Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
   Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 10:43:51 AM by Orest » Logged
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« Reply #349 on: May 16, 2009, 11:50:16 AM »

(Mods, if this is out of place in this particular thread could you please move it.  I cannot make up my mind if it is sufficiently ontopic for this thread or not?)

This is from today's Helsinki Newspaper.  It states that Archbishop Leo and Metropolitan Ambrosius of the Finnish orthodox Church will be con-celebrating with a representative from the MP.


"Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox Church Grows in Helsinki"

Two Orthodox Christian congregations in Helsinki affiliated with the Russian ecclesiastical tradition have grown in the Helsinki region in recent years.

The congregations of St. Nicholas and Pokrova, which fall under the Moscow Patriarchate, have about 2,000 members. The membership has been growing at a rate of about 150 a year.

About 75 per cent of the members registered in the congregations are citizens of Finland.

The Finnish Orthodox Church disengaged from the Russian Orthodox Church in 1923. However, some of the Orthodox in Finland wanted to retain Russian ways, and the use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy, and they set up their own congregation.

When the Finish Orthodox Church decided in 1927 to reject the old Julian calendar, the Russian Orthodox in Finland set up their own congregation - that of St. Nicholas.

After the Second World War Stalin began to use the Russian Orthodox Church as a way of advancing his foreign policy goals. There were calls from Moscow for the Finnish Orthodox Church to join the Moscow Patriarchate.

Support for the idea from the Finnish far left made many church members wary of the proposal, and it was rejected. In 1957 the Holy Synod of Moscow recognised the status of the Finnish Orthodox Church.
     
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, immigration from Russia to Finland has increased, swelling the membership of the Moscow-affiliated congregations in Finland.

The congregations remain small compared with the whole Finnish Orthodox Church, which shares a special status in Finnish society with the Evangelical-Lutheran Church. The Helsinki Orthodox Congregation has about 19,000 members.
     
The St. Nicholas Congregation wants to build a new Orthodox Church in Itäkeskus, in the east of Helsinki next to the Stoa culture centre. However, it has not yet been granted a building permit.

"I believe that our congregation will continue to grow. When the church in Itäkeskus is ready, we can increase youth activities and church services", says Orest Chervinski, dean of the Congregation of St. Nicholas.

The congregation is celebrating its 80th anniversary on Friday, with Metropolitan Cyril of the foreign section of the Moscow Patriarchate taking part in a service held on Friday morning at the Church of St. Nicholas at Helsinki's Hietaniemi Cemetery.

Taking part in the event were Metropolitan Ambrosius and Archbishop Leo of the Helsinki Orthodox diocese.
     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

"It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.

Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.

"There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

Orthodox immigrants are very welcome in the Finnish Orthodox Church, Ambrosius says.

"We have actively sought to reach out to Russian immigrants. All those who have come to our congregation have been accepted."


Previously in HS International Edition:
Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329
 

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« Reply #350 on: May 16, 2009, 12:29:14 PM »

If the homosexual couple vowed to live in perfect celibacy I do not see any problems against giving them a blessing.
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« Reply #351 on: May 16, 2009, 12:30:40 PM »

Quote
Individual national churches might go in all sorts of weird directions were they not kept in check by their Orthodox brethren elsewhere.

Try telling that to people in North America.  What the Russians are doing in Finland also has parallels to here.
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« Reply #352 on: May 16, 2009, 03:30:05 PM »

Theoprovlitos,

Do not let anyone change your language on this issue; it by its very nature is wrong.  Homosexuality is a  result of the fall of Adam; it is something that is to be resisted, and refrained from.  The difference between it and heterosexuality is that the former is wrong in and of itself; whereas, the latter in and of itself is natural.  Thus "the marriage bed is honorable, and is blessed by God".  But, those who struggle with aberrant passions such as this are to be accepted, loved and cared for spiritually. 
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« Reply #353 on: May 16, 2009, 05:38:18 PM »

He insists on the baptism of all converts, no mere chrism.  This has been very hard for me to accept as I was baptized as an infant into the Roman Catholic Church, then again as a teenager into the Southern Baptist Church, so this will be my 'third' baptism, whenever it actually happens.  This is very hard to stomach, as it seems to violate the Creed: "I believe in ONE baptism for the remission of sins."  Anyway, it has been a good lesson in obedience and humility for me; getting me out of the Protestant paradigm of my decision and more attuned to the reality of the authority of the bishop as a representative of Christ.
Three baptisms?  Technically, according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, there is only one baptism: that of the Orthodox Church.  Outside the Church, there is no baptism, so the previous two heterodox baptisms are not seen as baptisms at all.

However, I digress only to offer a corrective.  If anyone would like to discuss this point further, I can split off this post and merge it into one of the many earlier discussions we've had about the subject of "re"-baptism of converts.  Just let me know what you want to do. Wink
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« Reply #354 on: May 18, 2009, 03:25:52 AM »

This article was in today's Helsinki newspaper:

Moscow-affiliated Russian Orthodox church grows in Helsinki

     
In spite of the cooperation between the two branches of Orthodoxy in Finland, the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church.

      "It is common practice that one local church will deal with all tasks of the Orthodox Church", Metropolitan Ambrosius says.
      Congregations linked with the Moscow Patriarchate live according to the old Julian calendar, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations.

      Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons.
      "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate", he explains.

    Previously in HS International Edition:
   Russian-style Orthodox church to be built in East of Helsinki (15.12.2006)
   Orthodox Church of Russia to expand its activities in Finland (22.8.2005)
16/5/2009
http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Moscow-affiliated+Russian+Orthodox+church+grows+in+Helsinki/1135230488329



Thank you Orest

This is exactly the problem but still the truth is revealed between the line as well as twisted.

For example Metropolitan Ambrosius says "they celebrate Easter at different times than in other Finnish Orthodox congregations" while the truth should be that "The Finnish Orthodox CHurch celebrates Easter at different times with ALL other Orthodox Churches in the world"  and this of course IS a problem becasue it braks church order and canons plus it makes Finns be in communion with the Protestants (who hardly celebrate Easter) rather with their Orthodox brethren all over the world. No wander they even have a priest rejecting the Holy Light even on Good Saturday 2008 just after the service claiming that "the Bible doesn't say anything about any "Holy Light"".

Then no wander "the growth of the congregations under the Moscow Patriarchate is a cause for some concern within the Finnish Orthodox Church". All the Finns who have spiritual connections with Mt Athos, Greece, Russia etc are suggested to attend services to the Russian Church and many who haven't still done so are waiting for the right moment practicing patience. If things go on like this the result will be soon that all Orthodox Immigrants or Orthodox of ethnic backgound will move to the Russian CHurch and those who will remain in the Finnish CHurch will be some rotten theologians, people with low morals, converts who THINK they know what Orthodoxy is and gays, Lesbians etc. This is NOT an Orthodox CHurch any more but a protestant one with different cultural elements. Their theology and dogmas however are from top to toes protestant. Cathechism is NOT enough to converts from other Christian dogmas with the exception of Roman Catholics with whom differences are only dogmatic. It is easier to a muslim to adopt the Orthodox way of thinking (once he accepted Christ) than to a protestant, as it is difficult to a non-native english speaker to speak english fluently unless he lives the rest of his life in an english-speaking country.

And in Finland the cse is that they are trying to speak Greek or Russian (I am using a metaphor) while they are residing in Finland where everyoine else is FInnish. And now they even have the pride to believe that they are going to teach US in Greece Greek or Russian becasue we don't know it well!

The biggest problem with Finns and converts in general is that they cannot see the UNVISIBLE side of Orthodoxy. For example the Roman catholics have a sweet love to the Mother of God, Virgin Mary. They have Padre Pio. They believe in miracles. There is a spiritual link a constant vibration of the heart with Christ and His saints that cannot be tought by books. This is why they have approcahed Orthodoxy INTELLECTUALLY and CULTURALLY while their hearts remain dry and unable to catch delicate issues. In their mind Orthodoxy, protestantism and humanistic atheism are one mass and one mess.

You can see it here in Metropolitan AMbrosius's words: "There is a small group of nationalists who want their spiritual services directly from priests under the Moscow Patriarchate". He CANNOT even see (or he pretends he doesn't see that there are hundreds of other serious reasons than the one's descrived here). "Ambrosius says that people often join the congregations which observe Russian traditions specifically for cultural reasons". It is obvious that the Metropolitan speaks according to HIS perception of Orthodoxy: "observe RUSSIAN traditions specifically for CULTURAL reasons". So all this we are talking about is a RUSSIAN (or Greek) thing and it has to do with CULTURE and not dogmas, ethics and holy tradition. And once Orthodoxy has been described as an ethinc and cultural thing then this gives them the right to CREATE a Frankenstein monster faith with organs from the corpes of various dead ideas and create what they call "Finnish orthodoxy" which is anyhting else but Orthodoxy and it is different than the Orthodoxy people in all other Orthodox countries share for centuries despite their ethnic and linguistic backgrounds.



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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #355 on: May 18, 2009, 03:39:25 AM »

If the homosexual couple vowed to live in perfect celibacy I do not see any problems against giving them a blessing.

Mike

Quite close but not yet. I am gald that you got this slight but IMPORTANT difference between homosexual couples who live together in celibacy and those who "get married" even in civil weddings.

In the fisrt case their sex life is just a fall while in the second one is the justification of a sin both morally and ecclesiaticaly. The homosexual person who gets married despite the teaching of the church in reality he is practically REJECTING the church in favor of his sex life. It is as for example an Orthodox Christian living in a Muslim country were bigamy is allowed, have a mistress committing adultery with her, but becasue the state allows bigamy he would go and get married with his mistress and become bigamus according to a civil marriage and have the perception that he is an Orthodox Christian while in reality he is nothing more than an ADULTERER.

So you can't be married with a person of the same sex and claim that you are a faithful christian.

Things are easier with unmarried homosexuals who have most probably no other choice than to live in sin. It must be made clear to them that they cannot equaly particiapte to the sacraments since they are practicing fornication. It is the same with non married heterosexual couples who live together. And if a priest shouldn't bless a couple living in an open marriage or a couple of adulterers, why should homosexuals be an exception?
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Theoprovlitos
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« Reply #356 on: May 18, 2009, 03:45:27 AM »

Three baptisms?  Technically, according to the Tradition of the Orthodox Church, there is only one baptism: that of the Orthodox Church.  Outside the Church, there is no baptism, so the previous two heterodox baptisms are not seen as baptisms at all.

However, I digress only to offer a corrective.  If anyone would like to discuss this point further, I can split off this post and merge it into one of the many earlier discussions we've had about the subject of "re"-baptism of converts.  Just let me know what you want to do. Wink

That would be an interesting issue though there will not be a clear answer but it will only reproduce the already existing confusion not only among different jurisdictions but even among priests of the very same church in the same country.

To get an idea, it is not clear to many priests if a child at risk that was baptized by aerobaptism should go through a full batism later if it survives the danger or it should only be chrismated
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« Reply #357 on: May 18, 2009, 04:16:14 AM »

Hello.I'm cristiano from spain.
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Robert W
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« Reply #358 on: May 19, 2009, 10:19:05 AM »

Christ is risen!

Sorry to drag this sorry thread to the top again.

I don't have the energy to engage in a prolonged discussion about this subject but I feel that I have to say a few words.

There is a conflict within the Finnish Orthodox Church. The well meaning Theoprovlitos have correctly named Heikki Huttunen (Orthodox priest, chairman of the Finnish ecumenical council and active homosexual rights supporter) and his gang, that includes a handful of Orthodox priests, as the agitators.

Among the opponents of Heikki Huttunen & co are some leading people of the Orthodox lay academy located at the new Valaam monastery, Pyhän Kosmas Aitolialaisen Veljestö (Brotherhood of Cosmas of Aetolia) and numerous priests. These have been sending letters to the Archbishop Leo asking him to take action. If the Archbishop fails to take action these people and organisations have been threatening to turn to Moscow for help (i.e. setting up a parallel Church in Finland that would be under the Patriarch of Moscow).

I do not think that the Ecumenical Patriarch and the Patriarch of Moscow are blind and dumb. They know what is going on. I get the feeling they are just waiting for the Finnish Church to "sit straight" (pun actually intended, sorry Cool ), they do not want to interfere prematurely. If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.
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« Reply #359 on: May 19, 2009, 11:12:23 AM »

If Heikki Huttunen and friends would actually manage to "take over" the Finnish Orthodox Church (quite unlikely) I have no doubt that both Moscow and Constantinople would come swinging their patriarchal staffs.

Indeed.
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Ordained on 17 & 18-Oct 2009. Please forgive me if earlier posts are poorly worded or incorrect in any way.
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