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Poll
Question: Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 19 (26.8%)
Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to fight - 10 (14.1%)
Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates - 7 (9.9%)
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity - 20 (28.2%)
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 15 (21.1%)
Total Voters: 71

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Author Topic: Yet Another Gay Marriage Thread  (Read 70766 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #180 on: June 06, 2008, 10:16:45 AM »

I agree.
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« Reply #181 on: June 06, 2008, 02:11:02 PM »

Dear Tamara,

You are one of the few sane, objective, knowledgeable and charitable voices here on this matter.

Our young people are being sexually corrupted by society, and only those parents who wish to live in a 'fool's paradise' are not aware of this. Sexual corruption, whether homo or heterosexual, is happening in our elementary schools, our high schools, and most especially in the dormitories and classrooms of our colleges and universities, whom we pay top dollar to.

As for homosexuals, I,  too, like gay men and have worked with them in the fashion and interior design industries. Not wanting the 'lifestyle' taught and encouraged to our children has nothing to do with being a right wing kook. or prejudiced.  It has everything to do with being Christian and wanting to adhere to a Christian lifestyle.

Again, thank you for your sane and well written post. It seems that we are both 'cool'  and 'with it' enough mothers to appeal to those who might want to label mothers/and women as knowing not of what they speak.

I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

In Christ our Lord,
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Thanks Alice!

I have not posted on this thread but have read a few posts.

Some who post on this fourm have no idea what Christian virtue is. I am sorry that you had to experience such irresponsible behavior.

You know that God is watching of course. So we must not return the favor. We must forgive them and pray for them and each other.

God keep you and strengthen you...

PS
Tamara is a blessing to this OC.net Forum ..indeed; Thanks!
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« Reply #182 on: June 06, 2008, 02:39:13 PM »

Quote

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Tamara is a blessing to this OC.net Forum ..indeed; Thanks!

I second that! Thanks, Tamara, for blessing us with your wisdom, kindness,godliness, and diplomacy. You have also blessed my life personally! Many thanks! Kiss
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« Reply #183 on: June 06, 2008, 04:19:40 PM »

Well said!

Homosexuality is a struggle for all of us, whether those who struggle with same-sex attraction itself or we who struggle not to condemn those who do. ...<snipped>
But this does not apply to the question. It is not those who "struggle" with same-sex attraction - those we do not condemn. But those who demand we accept their acceptance (giving into the sin) as our own. That's the rub.
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« Reply #184 on: June 06, 2008, 07:13:08 PM »

Honestly I don't think that homosexuality comes up over and over again just because everyone hates gays. As I said before, the reason that homosexuality comes up is that our society has made it an issue. For over about thrity to forty years, active homosexuals have been pushing an agenda to bring homosexuality out into the open and present the homosexual life style as a normal and viable alternative to the heterosexuality. Before this sixties, this was nearly unheard of. Homosexuality was quite rightly viewed as a disorder, sinful, and unhealhty. The big change in the way our society views the matter and has continually brought it to the forfront of discussion over the past few decades has made homosexuality a big political topic of conversation that it simply was not in the past. This is not the fault of Christians, Orthodox, Catholic, or otherwise, but rather the society at large that has made the issue so "important". Since Christian ethics rejects homosexuality, Christians now are forced to deal with an issue that secular culture is basically shoving in everyone's face whether they like it or not. If anyone really wants to point a finger for making the homosexual agenda an issue they should not be pointing a finger at Christians who are responding to a matter becuase of their faith. Rather, point the finger at those who continue to force the issue.

And yet in the early days of the Church, Christians were surrounding by homosexuality and much, much worse - and it doesn't seem from scripture that Christ was advocating that his followers institute law reform for pagans so that they conformed to Christian standards.

Perhaps the reason it has become such an issue for the 20-21st Century is that the Church, finding herself in a position to influence the state, affected laws that were enforced on the non-believer. It still doesn't seem to me that that was ever Christ's intention for the Church. Our changes and struggles with sin are to be our own, not those that are foisted upon us by the moral laws of a faith we don't believe. If such laws are in place, they merely push the non-believer away from Christianity. Our task, as the Church, is to bring non-believers to Christ (by exhibiting our love for each other and our love for the non-believer) so that in accepting Christ as their Saviour, they can recognise sin in themselves and desire change in themselves. Seems to me that historically the Church has failed miserably in the regard of love of each other, let alone love for non-believers.

It also seems to me that Christians need to accept a large portion of the blame for homosexuals "forcing of the issue" in this regard. It amounts to much more than differences of belief, of us against "the world"; it amounts to the Christian insistance of prying into what goes on in other people's bedrooms. This is something that people who live in countries where freedom is the catch-phrase will not and should not accept.

Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 
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« Reply #185 on: June 06, 2008, 07:20:36 PM »

But this does not apply to the question. It is not those who "struggle" with same-sex attraction - those we do not condemn. But those who demand we accept their acceptance (giving into the sin) as our own. That's the rub.
I see where you're coming from. Purposefully doing things to offend the sensibilities of a group is not a good way to gain the acceptance of that group. Personally, I think the whole "gay pride parade" is counterproductive. I don't care what anyone does in their own bedroom, but when it's in public, in plain sight of eveyone, I really don't want to see it regardless of the gender of the participants.
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« Reply #186 on: June 06, 2008, 07:46:48 PM »

I see where you're coming from. Purposefully doing things to offend the sensibilities of a group is not a good way to gain the acceptance of that group. Personally, I think the whole "gay pride parade" is counterproductive. I don't care what anyone does in their own bedroom, but when it's in public, in plain sight of eveyone, I really don't want to see it regardless of the gender of the participants.

Taking it public, though, is part of "forcing the issue" and understandable. Those who feel persecuted will eventually take their cause public; most often with outrageous consequences. But would things have gone this far if homosexuals had not felt pushed into rebellion against "polite" society? Like any group of people who feel that they have been over-disciplined - and often unfairly - the more wilful (and gregarious) homosexual has decided to make a public statement. End result, a "gay pride parade" that is not only counterproductive in terms of receiving understanding and acceptance for homosexuals, but also "one in the eye for the establishment". 
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 07:47:37 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

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« Reply #187 on: June 06, 2008, 10:11:51 PM »

Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to liveas they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 

I'm intrigued, how many Christians do you personally know that you would say to them, "you obviously have not learned to accept others have freewill".  I think most Christians would absolutely accept that God has given us all the free will to live as we choose. But does "accepting" mean we should all "live as we choose" or allow other's to "live as they choose".  Of course not, we all draw a line somewhere.  We just disagree with where the line should be drawn. In fact, most of us, not just Christians, all have low opinions of some of the many ways that people choose to exercise free will.  Obviously, some free will is determined to be illegal by society, i.e. someone's will to kill someone else.  And yes, I understand your point is, "don't tell other people how to live ye who cast the first stone."  But the way you put it is sure painting a pretty broad, and probably unfair brush of "Christians".  Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.  Doesn't mean you to have to accept or approve of it, and as we all know and I just said, society for completely non-religious reasons abridges people's rights to exercise their free will every day.

Sorry to dwell on the semantics, just don't understand why you had to make such a broad, damning statement against what you imply must be a majority of or at least a great deal of Christians. It seemed downright "hostile"!  Wink
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 11:29:43 PM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #188 on: June 07, 2008, 12:28:42 AM »

I'm intrigued, how many Christians do you personally know that you would say to them in person, "you obviously have not learned to accept others have freewill".

Why would I use such wording? There are many ways to discuss matters without using your formula. Forgive me if you took any of my comments personally. I wasn't addressing any member of this forum, but making a general observation as to why so many threads regarding homosexuality are started and are undeniably hostile - here on OC.net and on many other Christian forums and chat venues. Historically, Christian interaction with other sinners has been pretty appalling. If you don't agree, perhaps that could be a topic for another thread?

Quote
I think most Christians would absolutely accept that God has given us all the free will to live as we choose. But does "accepting" mean we should all "live as we choose" or allow other's to "live as they choose".  Of course not, we all draw a line somewhere.  We just disagree with where the line should be drawn. In fact, most of us, not just Christians, all have low opinions of some of the many ways that people choose to exercise free will.  Obviously, some free will is determined to be illegal by society, i.e. someone's will to kill someone else. 

I thought that this thread was about homosexuality on Orthodox forums. That is discussion regarding sexual attraction to another of one's own gender, and between two consenting adults. I'm not sure how murder got into the picture.

Quote
And yes, I understand your point is, "don't tell other people how to live ye who cast the first stone."  But the way you put it is sure painting a pretty broad, and probably unfair brush of "Christians".  Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will. 

You have never net a Calvinist? And there are plenty of Christians who give lip-service to the concept of freewill, but then try to manipulate those around them to prevent them from exercising freewill as they see fit.

Quote
Sorry to dwell on the semantics, just don't understand why you had to make such a broad, damning statement against what you imply must be a majority of or at least a great deal of Christians. It seemed downright "hostile"!  Wink

I said; Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again.  

Where do I imply any numbers? Did you not notice the collective pronoun "we". As a community of believers, we are in this together - that means all of us. And how is this a damning statement? Obviously, as a Christian, I include myself in the above statement for I do believe that this tendancy to forget that others have the right to live according to their own choices has far wider implications than the subject of homosexuality only. I know that it's a 24/7 determination on my own part to not walk this earth wondering why people don't think and act the way I think is most appropriate. Tongue And who is the statement damning? Are we not permitted to recognise this tendancy in the human race without it being regarded as damning? What exactly do you mean by damning? And are you suggesting that there aren't a great number of Christians who deal with this subject poorly and with hostility?

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« Reply #189 on: June 07, 2008, 01:25:40 AM »

Murder got in the picture because of the obvious point that "free will" doesn't mean license to do whatever you want. I wasn't equating murder to homosexuality or anything else. Sorry if that seemed an inappropriate choice of words.

I've met plenty of Calvinists.  Compared to the majority of Christians, the actual number who would call themselves Calvinists and actually believe we have no free will are few.  Which is why I said "most" Christians.

I know many Christians who disagree with Homosexuality.  But I can't remember the last time I personally saw one act poorly or with hostility in regards the issue.  I heard more hostility toward homosexuals playing High School sports from guys who'd never step foot in a Church than I ever have in a Church. Now I've seen Christians on TV do so, and I've seen Christians on web boards do so but my personal experience would lead me to believe that most Christians actually deal with this issue appropriately and without hostility. But I won't disagree that there are many that do not.

Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin.

As for me, some of the finest people I've ever met were homosexuals.  And some of the finest people I've ever met were hardcore Southern Baptist bible thumpers.  And some of the finest people I've ever met were hard core atheists. I've rarely if ever seen them act or speak hostile toward one another on these issues. Disagree yes, difference of opinion yes, hostile no.  People lurking on web forums and media attention grabbers though, a different story! Wink
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« Reply #190 on: June 07, 2008, 01:34:34 AM »

Murder got in the picture because of the obvious point that "free will" doesn't mean license to do whatever you want. I wasn't equating murder to homosexuality or anything else. Sorry if that seemed an inappropriate choice of words.

You are forgiven.  Tongue

Quote
I've met plenty of Calvinists.  Compared to the majority of Christians, the actual number who would call themselves Calvinists and actually believe we have no free will are few.  Which is why I said "most" Christians.

Sorry to nitpick, but you said; Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.

Quote
I know many Christians who disagree with Homosexuality.  But I can't remember the last time I personally saw one act poorly or with hostility in regards the issue.  I heard more hostility toward homosexuals playing High School sports from guys who'd never step foot in a Church than I ever have in a Church. Now I've seen Christians on TV do so, and I've seen Christians on web boards do so but my personal experience would lead me to believe that most Christians actually deal with this issue appropriately and without hostility. But I won't disagree that there are many that do not.

Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  Huh

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« Reply #191 on: June 07, 2008, 01:46:27 AM »

Sorry to nitpick, but you said; Personally, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will.

Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  Huh

To be perfectly honest, the "Calvinists" I've known probably aren't true Calvinists since if pushed they would say they believe in predestination but would also say our actions are somehow "free".  Which of course probably means they aren't really Calvinists. I wouldn't argue that with them though! Wink But this probably means my original statement should have been, "As far as I know, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will, but their might be a few confused ones I'm not sure about!"

And yes we have been talking about "homosexuality on Orthodox forums", although it seemed to me you were also commenting on the topic of homosexuality and how the Christian community deals with the topic in general, regardless, getting back on "topic" is why my next paragraph after the one quoted read,

"Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin."

You must have just missed it! Wink


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« Reply #192 on: June 07, 2008, 02:07:14 AM »

Aren't we talking about homosexuality on Orthodox forums  Huh

Since you seem concerned about us staying on topic, was the following then only intended to address specifically "homosexuality on Orthodox forums".

As a community of believers, we are in this together - that means all of us. And how is this a damning statement? Obviously, as a Christian, I include myself in the above statement for I do believe that this tendancy to forget that others have the right to live according to their own choices has far wider implications than the subject of homosexuality only. I know that it's a 24/7 determination on my own part to not walk this earth wondering why people don't think and act the way I think is most appropriate. Tongue And who is the statement damning? Are we not permitted to recognise this tendancy in the human race without it being regarded as damning? What exactly do you mean by damning? And are you suggesting that there aren't a great number of Christians who deal with this subject poorly and with hostility?

It must be my feeble mind that led me to believe you were talking in a more general sense of how christians relate to the topic of homosexuality.   Forgive my misunderstanding as I'm sure you wouldn't hold me to a higher standard of topic etiquette than yourself! Shocked

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« Reply #193 on: June 07, 2008, 02:08:20 AM »

To be perfectly honest, the "Calvinists" I've known probably aren't true Calvinists since if pushed they would say they believe in predestination but would also say our actions are somehow "free".  Which of course probably means they aren't really Calvinists. I wouldn't argue that with them though! Wink But this probably means my original statement should have been, "As far as I know, I've never met a Christian who didn't believe everyone had free will, but their might be a few confused ones I'm not sure about!"

And yes we have been talking about "homosexuality on Orthodox forums", although it seemed to me you were also commenting on the topic of homosexuality and how the Christian community deals with the topic in general, regardless, getting back on "topic" is why my next paragraph after the one quoted read,

"Why do I think this topic keeps coming up on boards, 1) People get nervous and reactionary by something they perceive as attacking their faith or way of life and it exposes their own weaknesses, 2) people don't like to be told what to do and get nervous that people telling other people what they can or can't do will eventually effect them and 3) internet boards attract people looking for debate and homosexuality is a hot topic. So it make sense that among a group of people looking to debate/test/defend their "beliefs" it would get discussed often.  So they all tend to create boogymen and let flaming begin."

You must have just missed it! Wink

I didn't miss a thing.  Wink
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« Reply #194 on: June 07, 2008, 02:09:46 AM »

Since you seem concerned about us staying on topic, was the following then only intended to address specifically "homosexuality on Orthodox forums".

It must be my feeble mind that led me to believe you were talking in a more general sense of how christians relate to the topic of homosexuality.   Forgive my misunderstanding as I'm sure you wouldn't hold me to a higher standard of topic etiquette than yourself! Shocked

Yes, that was it; your feeble mind.  Wink
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« Reply #195 on: June 07, 2008, 02:14:49 AM »

Yes, that was it; your feeble mind.  Wink

You've discovered my intellectual liabilities. Go easy on me. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #196 on: June 07, 2008, 12:50:43 PM »

And yet in the early days of the Church, Christians were surrounding by homosexuality and much, much worse - and it doesn't seem from scripture that Christ was advocating that his followers institute law reform for pagans so that they conformed to Christian standards.

Perhaps the reason it has become such an issue for the 20-21st Century is that the Church, finding herself in a position to influence the state, affected laws that were enforced on the non-believer. It still doesn't seem to me that that was ever Christ's intention for the Church. Our changes and struggles with sin are to be our own, not those that are foisted upon us by the moral laws of a faith we don't believe. If such laws are in place, they merely push the non-believer away from Christianity. Our task, as the Church, is to bring non-believers to Christ (by exhibiting our love for each other and our love for the non-believer) so that in accepting Christ as their Saviour, they can recognise sin in themselves and desire change in themselves. Seems to me that historically the Church has failed miserably in the regard of love of each other, let alone love for non-believers.

It also seems to me that Christians need to accept a large portion of the blame for homosexuals "forcing of the issue" in this regard. It amounts to much more than differences of belief, of us against "the world"; it amounts to the Christian insistance of prying into what goes on in other people's bedrooms. This is something that people who live in countries where freedom is the catch-phrase will not and should not accept.

Until Christians learn to accept that others have the freewill - granted by God - to live as they choose, making moral decisions that we don't agree with, we will have the topic of homosexuality resurfacing as a hostile topic again and again. 
Nope. The early Church wasn't dealing with a cultural shift towards acceptance of homosexuality. It was old news in their society so there was no reason to  expect a great deal  of discussion on the matter. Today, we ARE dealing with a cultural shift that is being rammed down our throats under the disguise of "civil rights".
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« Reply #197 on: December 11, 2008, 08:04:11 PM »

How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?


There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)

LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
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« Reply #198 on: December 12, 2008, 01:06:22 PM »

How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?


There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)

LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
WOW!!!  You resuscitate a thread that had been dead for six months only to quote a post that goes back a year earlier. Roll Eyes  You must really be bored! Tongue
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« Reply #199 on: December 12, 2008, 01:11:32 PM »

How about "because society/the media are presenting it as an issue"?


There you go! I agree. If bestiality were the new 'cause' I guess that would be a hot topic also.

(Opening new can of worms...)

LOL....you just mentioned bestiality.
WOW!!!  You resuscitate a thread that had been dead for six months only to quote a post that goes back a year earlier. Roll Eyes  You must really be bored! Tongue
No.  Just meandered off of OzGeorge's link to this thread posted yesterday.  Procrastinating more than bored.  Got too much going on: I'd LOVE to be bored.
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« Reply #200 on: December 12, 2008, 05:58:20 PM »

With my recent vote (29 out of 56), more than half the voters feel that:

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

Therefore, I propose that this thread be locked because the majority has spoken.   Grin  Wink
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« Reply #201 on: December 12, 2008, 07:16:47 PM »

With my recent vote (29 out of 56), more than half the voters feel that:

Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet.

Therefore, I propose that this thread be locked because the majority has spoken.   Grin  Wink
Do note also that, before today, this thread hadn't received a post in six months.

Besides, 31.6% of the vote is far short of a true majority.  A plurality of the voters in this poll voted that some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet, but a supermajority voted otherwise.  So THERE!  Tongue Thbbbbpft!
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« Reply #202 on: December 12, 2008, 07:47:37 PM »

With 30 votes out of 57 total cast - the plurality and the supermajority continue to agree and increase.   Grin
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« Reply #203 on: December 12, 2008, 08:07:02 PM »

With 30 votes out of 57 total cast - the plurality and the supermajority continue to agree and increase.   Grin
Hate to break it to you, bub, but 52.6% does not make a supermajority; that percentage needs to increase by 14.1 percentage points. Wink  And don't you dare vote again to try to raise that percentage! police
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« Reply #204 on: December 12, 2008, 08:32:51 PM »

Hate to break it to you, bub, but 52.6% does not make a supermajority; that percentage needs to increase by 14.1 percentage points. Wink  And don't you dare vote again to try to raise that percentage! police

Supermajorities are usually 60%; Hence, 7.4 percentage points are needed and I don't intend to vote more than once.   angel

However, we are no longer talking about the OP; We're throwing numbers at each other.
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« Reply #205 on: December 13, 2008, 12:32:07 AM »

31 out of 58 votes = 53.44%

Need 10 more votes for supermajority.   Grin
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« Reply #206 on: December 13, 2008, 12:41:16 AM »

I'm already on Zoloft and Abilify, so do I have to get on Prozac as well, or are my present meds acceptable?  Grin
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« Reply #207 on: December 13, 2008, 12:52:48 AM »

^ Your meds are more than acceptable.   Cheesy
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« Reply #208 on: December 13, 2008, 05:13:49 AM »

OOpps...i just noticed the Prozac thing is on there twice!
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« Reply #209 on: December 13, 2008, 08:08:02 AM »

I'm already on Zoloft and Abilify, so do I have to get on Prozac as well, or are my present meds acceptable?  Grin
Abilify has to be one of the worst drug names ever.
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« Reply #210 on: December 13, 2008, 09:15:56 AM »

OOpps...i just noticed the Prozac thing is on there twice!

Yes, the poll is rigged.  A common practice of some on a certain side of an issue.
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« Reply #211 on: December 13, 2008, 11:50:57 AM »

OOpps...i just noticed the Prozac thing is on there twice!

Therefore, I move that that option be disqualified and we declare 'Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity' the winner as claiming a clear majority of the remaining votes. Wink
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« Reply #212 on: December 13, 2008, 12:09:56 PM »

Therefore, I move that that option be disqualified and we declare 'Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity' the winner as claiming a clear majority of the remaining votes. Wink

You have no standing to make such a motion; appeal denied. Wink
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« Reply #213 on: May 11, 2009, 12:43:52 PM »

THE SAME WHO HOSTED FREEMASON-ORTHODOX APPROACH FORUM

Read below the moral and dogmatic corruption of the New Age Orthodox Church of Finland who participates as organizer in Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender "Christian" Forum.

http://www.yhteys.org/ef2009b.html


EUROPEAN FORUM OF LESBIAN & GAY CHRISTIAN GROUPS 2009

”Courage to follow the Law of Love” (Maybe they don't know the Biblical word 'lust')

MAY 20-24, 2009 IN FINLAND
PROGRAMME

Wednesday May 20
• 14.00- Registration and information
• 16.00-17.00 Dinner (included in participation fee)
• 17.00-21.00 Pre-Conference for Women, Pre-Conference for Men
• 21.00- Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

Thursday May 21
• 08.00-08.30 Morning meditation
• 08.30-09.30 Breakfast
• 09.30-13.00 Pre-Conferences continue (Coffee break 11.00)
• 13.00-14.00 Lunch
• 14.00- Opening Ceremony

• Song of the Forum: Petri Laaksonen
• Director of the Aducation Center of the Church: Hannu Harri
• Welcoming words of Finnish organizers: Liisa Tuovinen
• Representant of the Lutheran Church: Bishop Mikko Heikka
• Organizers of the European Forum 2009: Enric Vilΰ

• Orthodox bishop Ambrosius

• Shaking hands with each other, Map of Europe
• 15.00-15.45 Coffee and Meeting with the church representatives and European Forum: Liisa Tuovinen.
• 15.45-16.30 “Courage to follow the law of love”: Lecture/ Speak.
• 17.00-18.30 Workshops (Further information of all workshops)
• 1) Future strategy for European Forum: European Forum board.
• 2) LGBT situation in the first Christian country in the world: Karen Badalyn.
• 3) “Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life”: Eeva Jarvinen.
• 4) Sexual orientation, identification and means of power use and violence in church communities: Liisa Tuovinen.
• 5) “My story" - Story of my life: Inari Hytonen, MD (Max 10 participants and same persons present in every workshop meeting).

• 6) Together we give a voice to our praise of Creation. Practicing the akatist to the Praise to God for all creation, a service which is easy to learn. All who want to sing welcome. Orthodox cantor and music teacher Tuomas Sidoroff.
• 7) Lutheran Concerned / North America (LC/NA) programs and resources: Matrin Scheel & Philip Moeller.

• 18.30-19.30 Dinner
• 20.00–21.00 Evening programme “Dancing Conference” in the Hall

• 21.00- Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas

Friday May 22
• 07.30-08.00 Morning meditation
• 08.00-09.00 Breakfast
• 09.00- to Helsinki
• 10.00-13.00 Open seminar in the University of Helsinki

• PhD, Kerstin Soderblom, Goethe University Frankfurt: The European Churches and their sexual minority
• ThD, Bishop Wille Riekkinen: How to define theological stand on homosexuality


General secterary, Father Heikki Huttunen, Ecumenical Counsel of Finland, Orthodox church of Finland: Human sexuality in the Orthodox theology

• ThD, Assistant professor Vesa Hirvonen: Does homosexuality challenge the doctrine of the church?
• 13.00 Travel back to Jarvenpaa
• 14.00-15.00 Lunch
• 15.30-17.00 Workshops

• 1) Catholic church book project: Andrea E. Kruger.
• 2) HIV and sexually transmitted infections - safer sex and HIV-prevention: Lennie Lindberg.
• 3) LGBT situation in the first Christian country in the world: Karen Badalyn.
• 4) “Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life”: Eeva Jarvinen.
• 5) Sexual orientation, identification and means of power use and violence in church communities: Liisa Tuovinen.
• 6) “My story" - Story of my life: Inari Hytonen, MD (Max 10 participants and same persons present in every workshop meeting)
• 7) Our response to persecution - growing towards spiritual strength. Johan Slδtis.
Cool “Rowing spirit”. A journey to Lake Tuusula with texts from the Bible: Jaakko Hyttinen & Tuula Putkonen.
• 9) Visit to Ainola – home of composer Jean Sibelius: volunteers.
• 10) Planning group for the Closing service: Monika Pensar-Granroth.
• 11) Lutheran Concerned / North America (LC/NA) programs and resources: Matrin Scheel & Philip Moeller.
• 17.00-18.30 Floor ball in the Sports hall
• 18.30-19.30 Dinner
• 20.00–22.00 Evening programme

• 22.00-23.00 Orthodox vesper, supper, saunas


Saturday May 23
• 08.00-08.30 Morning meditation
• 08.30-09.00 Breakfast
• 09.00-13.00 Annual meeting of European Forum
• 09.00-13.00 Workshops

• 1) “Transition in a church context: theology, community and roles of sex and gender in Christian life”: Eeva Jarvinen.
• 2) Sexual orientation, identification and means of power use and violence in church communities: Liisa Tuovinen.

• 3) Can male priest love and live with a man? Discussion with an introduction by an orthodox priest working in southern Finland. (09.00-10.45).

• 4) From invisibility to visibility. Spiritual and communal ways to establish a rainbow identity in an orthodox context. Introduction to the theme by orthodox rainbow fellowshop members. (11.30-12.45).

• 5) “Rowing spirit”. A journey to Lake Tuusula with texts from the Bible: Jaakko Hyttinen & Tuula Putkonen.
• 6) Visit to Ainola – home of composer Jean Sibelius: volunteers.
• 7) Planning for Sunday service: Monika Pensar-Granroth.

______________________



A link about a Finnish Lutheran priest who has gone under sex-change and remained a parish... priestess. The Orthodox priests and General Seretary of the Finnish Ecumenical counsel and the priests of the parish of Helsinki support the ordination of transexuals and are in communion with the gay homosexual cult.

http://pastorbastard.blogspot.com/2008/11/vicar-changes-sex-and-jobs.html

http://www.kotimaa.fi/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6878&Itemid=38

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« Reply #214 on: May 11, 2009, 12:50:16 PM »

Here's another link for those interested

http://theoprovlitos.blogspot.com/2009/05/romanian-elders-on-ecumenism.html
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« Reply #215 on: May 11, 2009, 12:52:47 PM »

• Organizers of the European Forum 2009: Enric Vilΰ

• Orthodox bishop Ambrosius

1. In the original text there is not a single word about Met. Ambrosius. Someone had forged it. The owner of the blog I suppose. Wasn't you the one who "had modified" the announcement? You've got the same nicks.
2. You cannot forbid anyone from participating in Vespers or in Akathyst. They won't take Holy Sacraments.
3. You cannot forbid anyone from attending a discussion. I'd bet that the answer of an Orthodox Priest on that topic is No, he cannot!
4. What in common with EO Church has a Lutheran sex-changed Priest?
Please, do not delete links with sources anymore. You deleted one which hadn't had Met. Ambrosios name listed and put the link to the blog which had it. Luckily I know how to use web history feature in my MF2.
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« Reply #216 on: May 11, 2009, 01:02:17 PM »

Can't be true. Give us some sources, independent publications, credible sources.
IT is bad. It is so BAD. This are make me say the word with A. !
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« Reply #217 on: May 11, 2009, 01:21:39 PM »

Can't be true.

It isn't.
Please see this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,21152.0.html
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« Reply #218 on: May 11, 2009, 01:26:49 PM »

A link about a Finnish Lutheran priest who has gone under sex-change and remained a parish... priestess. The Orthodox priests and General Seretary of the Finnish Ecumenical counsel and the priests of the parish of Helsinki support the ordination of transexuals and are in communion with the gay homosexual cult.

Thank you! Tomorrow I'm taking an oral English exam and I started getting nervous. After reading this I couldn't stop laughing for 5 minutes and all the stress has gone Smiley
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« Reply #219 on: May 11, 2009, 01:31:23 PM »

AISI, NO PROOF WHATSOEVER has been provided--sorry, Theoprovlitos, citing your own blog doesn't count as proof--that this conference has the blessing of a canonical hierarch of the Finnish Orthodox Church.  For all I know, there may be a vagante sect in Finland helping sponsor this event.  Though this hypothetical group may call themselves Orthodox, they're no more Orthodox than the Dalai Lama.  So, can you give us evidence to prove that a bishop of the canonical Finnish Orthodox Church has helped organize this LBGT event?
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« Reply #220 on: May 11, 2009, 01:35:30 PM »

My time expired and I was logged out and lost everything I wrote. So I am trying again

Unfortunatelly this neighnareis aboslutely TRUE.

The official programm of the conference is on line by the group Yhteys and I have already published the link.

Answering your questions now

1. In the original text the name of the Bishop was removed today in PANIC after I informed about the conference the Constantinople, Moscow, Bulgarian and other Patriarchates and Churches. However other Orthodox participants in the program play an important role in the Finnish Church. But you can still find the name of the same bishop in the Freemason page on the other post.


2. You cannot forbid anyone from participating in Vespers or in Akathyst but you also do not ORGANIZE in a non-orthodox church Vespers and Akathyst especially for GAYS unless the church introduces services fro different kinds of groups according to sex, social background, etc. Whoever is interested can visit the local Orthodox CHurch. There is no point organizein an Orthodox  service for the NON Orthodox especially focused on their sexual disorientation.


3. Maybe you didn't undersatnd wuite well the the person who introduces Gay Orthdox Pirests to live freely together with their lovers IS an Orthodox priest and the program has been approved by the bishop and the Archbishop of course.

4. The organizer of the conference is an Orthodox Priest who also happens to be the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of Finland. The gorganization where he also belongs is Yhteys and the president is a woman pastoress who recently performed the first ecclsiastical lesbian wedding in the Lutheran Church and she also put pressure so that the transexual priest would remain in hs parish as a priestess.

The Orthodox Priests who belong in this group, FULLY agree on this, FULLY suport them, they FULLY cooperate with them and the pray together in several services except of the divine Liturgy (for the time being)

Lst but not least they reject the Epistles and the Old Testament becasue they say negative things about homosexuality and their heretical moto is "If Jesus said nothing about it, then it is ALLOWED"

What else do you need?

You should know that this story goes back since 13 years ago when in the Orthodox Magazine Aamun Koitto they started publishing articles promoting homosexuality even mentioning that Jesus Christ had a special relationshiop with St John the Theologian!

In the blog you can see the covers of at least to issues dedicated tohomosexuality.

You should also know that Mt AThos, and some Church leaders are aware of the problem since quite some time. But becasue the Patriarchate does not take any measures those obsessed people guide the Finnish Church from bad to worse...
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« Reply #221 on: May 11, 2009, 01:43:55 PM »

My time expired and I was logged out and lost everything I wrote. So I am trying again

Unfortunatelly this neighnareis aboslutely TRUE.
Unfortunately, since you have not yet posted any links to sources outside of your own blog, it appears to be you and no one else saying this.

The official programm of the conference is on line by the group Yhteys and I have already published the link.
Where?  I don't see the link.

Answering your questions now

1. In the original text the name of the Bishop was removed today in PANIC after I informed about the conference the Constantinople, Moscow, Bulgarian and other Patriarchates and Churches. However other Orthodox participants in the program play an important role in the Finnish Church. But you can still find the name of the same bishop in the Freemason page on the other post.


2. You cannot forbid anyone from participating in Vespers or in Akathyst but you also do not ORGANIZE in a non-orthodox church Vespers and Akathyst especially for GAYS unless the church introduces services fro different kinds of groups according to sex, social background, etc. Whoever is interested can visit the local Orthodox CHurch. There is no point organizein an Orthodox  service for the NON Orthodox especially focused on their sexual disorientation.


3. Maybe you didn't undersatnd wuite well the the person who introduces Gay Orthdox Pirests to live freely together with their lovers IS an Orthodox priest and the program has been approved by the bishop and the Archbishop of course.

4. The organizer of the conference is an Orthodox Priest who also happens to be the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of Finland. The gorganization where he also belongs is Yhteys and the president is a woman pastoress who recently performed the first ecclsiastical lesbian wedding in the Lutheran Church and she also put pressure so that the transexual priest would remain in hs parish as a priestess.

The Orthodox Priests who belong in this group, FULLY agree on this, FULLY suport them, they FULLY cooperate with them and the pray together in several services except of the divine Liturgy (for the time being)

Lst but not least they reject the Epistles and the Old Testament becasue they say negative things about homosexuality and their heretical moto is "If Jesus said nothing about it, then it is ALLOWED"

What else do you need?

You should know that this story goes back since 13 years ago when in the Orthodox Magazine Aamun Koitto they started publishing articles promoting homosexuality even mentioning that Jesus Christ had a special relationshiop with St John the Theologian!

In the blog you can see the covers of at least to issues dedicated tohomosexuality.

You should also know that Mt AThos, and some Church leaders are aware of the problem since quite some time. But becasue the Patriarchate does not take any measures those obsessed people guide the Finnish Church from bad to worse...
Sorry.  You've answered not one of the questions I asked, since the only question I asked is why the only sources you've linked so far are sources you yourself have constructed.



Okay, I sit corrected. Embarrassed  You have provided a couple of links to something other than your own blog.  However, one of the links is to someone else's blog and, if the story detailed therein is true, still has no bearing on the OP if you can't prove from outside sources that the sex-changing Lutheran priest actually had the support of the Finnish Orthodox Church.  The other link redirects me to a news source that I can't read, since it's all in a language I don't understand (Finnish?).
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« Reply #222 on: May 11, 2009, 01:47:43 PM »


1. In the original text the name of the Bishop was removed today in PANIC after I informed about the conference the Constantinople, Moscow, Bulgarian and other Patriarchates and Churches. However other Orthodox participants in the program play an important role in the Finnish Church. But you can still find the name of the same bishop in the Freemason page on the other post.

It's only your word. And what have freemasons in common with Gay Conference? And neither of the Churches has reacted? There aren't any open letters. The Metropolitan thelepatically realised you informed them and modified the page?

2. You cannot forbid anyone from participating in Vespers or in Akathyst but you also do not ORGANIZE in a non-orthodox church Vespers and Akathyst especially for GAYS unless the church introduces services fro different kinds of groups according to sex, social background, etc. Whoever is interested can visit the local Orthodox CHurch. There is no point organizein an Orthodox  service for the NON Orthodox especially focused on their sexual disorientation.
Where is it stated that they won't took place in a normal Church?


Quote
Maybe you didn't understand wuite well the the person who introduces Gay Orthdox Pirests to live freely together with their lovers IS an Orthodox priest and the program has been approved by the bishop and the Archbishop of course.

It will be an introduction to the discussion (which will contain an Orthodox statement on the topic I suppose), NOT the introduction of gay Orthodox Priests.

Quote
4. The organizer of the conference is an Orthodox Priest who also happens to be the General Secretary of the Ecumenist Counsel of Finland. The gorganization where he also belongs is Yhteys and the president is a woman pastoress who recently performed the first ecclsiastical lesbian wedding in the Lutheran Church and she also put pressure so that the transexual priest would remain in hs parish as a priestess.

Fr. Heikki didn't perform a lesbian wedding. Where is the source that he organises the event? BTW in Poland an Orthodox Hierarchs also presides national ecumenical organisation.

Quote
The Orthodox Priests who belong in this group, FULLY agree on this, FULLY suport them, they FULLY cooperate with them and the pray together in several services except of the divine Liturgy (for the time being)

Agree and support what? And how do you know that he fully does?

Quote
Lst but not least they reject the Epistles and the Old Testament becasue they say negative things about homosexuality and their heretical moto is "If Jesus said nothing about it, then it is ALLOWED"

Prove it.


You seem (or pretend) to have an outstanding knowledge of issues in Finnish Church as you are Greek. Where do you take it from?



Where?  I don't see the link.

Top of the OP. I am not sure whether it was there from the beginning or was added later or had been removed and placed again.
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« Reply #223 on: May 11, 2009, 01:55:18 PM »

Where?  I don't see the link.

Top of the OP. I am not sure whether it was there from the beginning or was added later.
Yes, I recall that I saw the link and even commented on the fact that it provides no evidence whatsoever that the "Orthodox" group helping sponsor this conference is indeed a canonically Orthodox church and not a vagante sect.

I'm afraid I'm starting to lose credibility with my contradiction of facts I myself acknowledged earlier.  Must be due to the fact that I'm almost 40. Embarrassed
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« Reply #224 on: May 11, 2009, 01:57:52 PM »

Listen guys

I do not like "professional controvercy" and I don't like people questioning my credibility for the sake of controversy.

I havev provided you with liks which if you made a research you would have EASILY found out that the bishop ios involved. I cannot waste my time with people who call me a fraud.

Anyhow my point was not to proof myself a cdredulous person but to make this public so that peorple are aware of this worldwide and that those who are percecuted in Finland becasue they protest will get some help.

I guess aritcles and links in Finnish or Greek won't do any help to you or would they?

Here is the list of Orthodox Priests who are active memebrs of Yhteys WITH the blessing of the local bishop becasue I suppose it is obvious that Orthodox priests cannot participate actively and in public in such organizations without the bishops permission

http://www.yhteys.org/ortodoksit_frame.html

Here is the link of the Finnish Ecumenist counsil where the secretary is an Orthodox priest, same as in Yhteys homosexual group

http://www.ekumenia.fi/yhteystiedot_kontakt/

And here is the Orthodox Gay Fellowship where the theological secretary of the Archbishop himslef, supports openly gay activists since 2007, whao wrote in their "orthodox" magazine the Christ was gay and that Church should blesses homosexaual weddings.

I am too tired to search for more. If you don't believe me that is YOUR problem. I do not live in Finland.

http://sateenkaariseura.wordpress.com/articles-from-other-sites/double-life/
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