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Poll
Question: Homosexuality comes up frequenbtly on Orthodox forums because..
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 19 (26.8%)
Since drunkeness, adultery, theft and dishonesty have been eradicated it's the only sin left to fight - 10 (14.1%)
Apparently most Orthodox Christians have lots of gay family, friends and associates - 7 (9.9%)
Orthodox forums attract a lot of self torturing closet cases and men with doubts about thier own masculinity - 20 (28.2%)
Some folks who need Prozac aren't on it yet. - 15 (21.1%)
Total Voters: 71

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« Reply #135 on: June 27, 2007, 06:01:25 PM »

Contrary to three warnings I have issued on this thread, it has devolved again by going off topic. You people just can't help yourselves can you? Either use one of the other 20 existing threads on homosexuality or start a new one.

In an indirect way I think the last tangent has helped to answer the initial question, albeit indirectly, why are people on Orthodox forums so obsessed with homoseuxality? The very fact that the arguments are emotional in nature and full of logical fallacies, coming from a 'me against the world' mindset, a martyr complex if you will, reveals much about the psychology that drives this discussion. In short it's an irrational fear arising from repressed sexuality. Take a recent post, objection to a movie that did not try to force people into being gay, but rather addressed the issue in an objective and non-judgmental light, is violently attacked as a radical homosexual agenda. It's fear, irrationality, guilt, and in many cases a very unhealthy view of one's own sexuality using religion and morality as a sword and shield...prozac can only do so much.
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« Reply #136 on: June 27, 2007, 06:19:49 PM »

One thought that occurs to me is that the subject might come up so frequently because it might be an instance of "cheap righteousness", that is the idea that putting up a vehement post from behind the, as it were, shield of a computer screen, may give the writer good feelings that they are taking a stand without dealing with real human beings face to face. 

It is among the topics that I have seen written about with, shall we say, strong words and uncharitable language that do not show any concern for the feelings or empathy with other people.  (for example the "bitter pill" remark, telling someone to do something that the speaker would not and in a cruel way.)  When such a lack of charity is brought up, a very common response is that being polite/charitable/courteous would not *really* be "loving" because the target person would think that being kind meant that whatever it is that they do/are is OK.  That a real "loving" response is the verbal equivalent of a baseball bat or a dead fish up-side the head.   Undecided  Then if the other person rejects the post it is all their own fault and responsibility that they are not accepting the True Way(tm) as laid down by the one who was blunt/cruel/uncharitable.  A kind of "I did my part by telling them they were wrong, and have no responsibility for them not accepting my declaration of how they should change."  Cheap righteousness- just words, no effort in dealing with another as a human being, no trying to understand the "Other"  the "Not-like-me".

I hope that that is not too convoluted.  I am not addressing this at any one, just looking at the question of the original post, and offering an idea.

With respect,

Ebor
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« Reply #137 on: June 27, 2007, 06:42:40 PM »

On the Orthodox forums I have posted to the reason homosexuality comes up often usually has to do with changes in laws and education promoted by the homosexual lobby in the United States.

So while I never have hated homosexuals and have been friends with them in the past. I do hate the homosexual political agenda in the state of California because it effects my children. The eighth grade sex ed curriculum advocates that children explore their sexual identity by experimenting. Even the secular parents were up in arms about these recent changes to the curriculum. Love the sinner, hate the sin and the political agenda promoting and celebrating  the sin through public education.
To me, this is the crux of the matter. We must dialogue about the issue of the homosexual agenda in the public school system. I have friend who's a teacher in the PS's and he's told me of the NEA's agenda. Without being insensitive to homosexuals themselves, how do we go about addressing this issue in a loving manner?
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« Reply #138 on: June 27, 2007, 07:09:39 PM »

Dear Tamara,

You are one of the few sane, objective, knowledgeable and charitable voices here on this matter.

Our young people are being sexually corrupted by society, and only those parents who wish to live in a 'fool's paradise' are not aware of this. Sexual corruption, whether homo or heterosexual, is happening in our elementary schools, our high schools, and most especially in the dormitories and classrooms of our colleges and universities, whom we pay top dollar to.

As for homosexuals, I,  too, like gay men and have worked with them in the fashion and interior design industries. Not wanting the 'lifestyle' taught and encouraged to our children has nothing to do with being a right wing kook. or prejudiced.  It has everything to do with being Christian and wanting to adhere to a Christian lifestyle.

Again, thank you for your sane and well written post. It seems that we are both 'cool'  and 'with it' enough mothers to appeal to those who might want to label mothers/and women as knowing not of what they speak.

I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

In Christ our Lord,
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« Last Edit: June 27, 2007, 08:11:39 PM by alice » Logged
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« Reply #139 on: June 27, 2007, 07:21:47 PM »

I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

I wouldn't feel too appalled...if you read her posts you'll see she came out swinging, and swinging pretty low in a few instances.
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« Reply #140 on: June 27, 2007, 08:18:44 PM »

One thought that occurs to me is that the subject might come up so frequently because it might be an instance of "cheap righteousness", that is the idea that putting up a vehement post from behind the, as it were, shield of a computer screen, may give the writer good feelings that they are taking a stand without dealing with real human beings face to face. 

Wow. What insight. We are fortunate to have such minds on this site. This is the sort of thing I want to see more of.
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« Reply #141 on: June 28, 2007, 12:53:22 AM »

Dear Tamara,

You are one of the few sane, objective, knowledgeable and charitable voices here on this matter.

Our young people are being sexually corrupted by society, and only those parents who wish to live in a 'fool's paradise' are not aware of this. Sexual corruption, whether homo or heterosexual, is happening in our elementary schools, our high schools, and most especially in the dormitories and classrooms of our colleges and universities, whom we pay top dollar to.

As for homosexuals, I,  too, like gay men and have worked with them in the fashion and interior design industries. Not wanting the 'lifestyle' taught and encouraged to our children has nothing to do with being a right wing kook. or prejudiced.  It has everything to do with being Christian and wanting to adhere to a Christian lifestyle.

Again, thank you for your sane and well written post. It seems that we are both 'cool'  and 'with it' enough mothers to appeal to those who might want to label mothers/and women as knowing not of what they speak.

I am appalled by the way that Calligraphqueen was addressed and labeled. No one should be hurt like that, or be  put on the defensive like that, on a *Christian*  forum.

In Christ our Lord,
Alice


Thank you Alice for your kind words. I have the highest respect for Calligraphyqueen. She also has the added burden of raising a large family with one child who has a genetic disorder. Her life sounds very difficult. It seems the new group of people who are not shown tolerance are former evangelical Orthodox moms who raise large families and homeschool their children. I have several good friends who match that description. I have the highest respect for them and admire the fine children they have raised into devout Orthodox Christian adults. I guess any group of people can be demonized.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2007, 12:58:02 AM by Tamara » Logged
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« Reply #142 on: June 28, 2007, 06:00:26 AM »

One thought that occurs to me is that the subject might come up so frequently because it might be an instance of "cheap righteousness", that is the idea that putting up a vehement post from behind the, as it were, shield of a computer screen, may give the writer good feelings that they are taking a stand without dealing with real human beings face to face. 
I second ytterbiumanalyst: Excellent point. And on reflection, it seems to me that most subjects on this forum are an opportunity for "cheap righteousness".

It is among the topics that I have seen written about with, shall we say, strong words and uncharitable language that do not show any concern for the feelings or empathy with other people.
This is something which I have tried to say again and again! Here's the last time I said it:
This isn't an accusation, but rather an examination of why we do the things we do. Why is it that we feel we can say things tactlessly in a public forum available to anyone on the internet, yet would be more tactful in person? Why should the anonymity of an internet forum make any difference to how we behave towards others as Christians? Do we think that we will not be held accountable on the Day of Judgement for what we have said on this forum simply because we typed it into a computer?
"Virtual life" troubles me. The idea that we are somehow allowed to be a "different person" online to the one who was baptised a Christian when we are in internet forums simply because we go by a username rather than our baptisimal name is hersesy as far as I can see. We can only have one hypostasis, not two.

Personally, I think we will all be held even more accountable for what we say on internet forums because:

a) Each of us who claims to be an Orthodox Christian is an Ambassador for Christ to everyone who reads this forum. We will be held to account for any soul that is lost because of what we have said.

b) We could say something sinful here, and our lives on earth might end before we have a chance to retract it or modify our post or ask forgiveness from those we have offended. Our written word continues to live even after we're dead.

c) Our audience is much wider, and the damage our sin can do is therefore increased.



When such a lack of charity is brought up, a very common response is that being polite/charitable/courteous would not *really* be "loving" because the target person would think that being kind meant that whatever it is that they do/are is OK.  That a real "loving" response is the verbal equivalent of a baseball bat or a dead fish up-side the head.   Undecided  Then if the other person rejects the post it is all their own fault and responsibility that they are not accepting the True Way(tm) as laid down by the one who was blunt/cruel/uncharitable.  A kind of "I did my part by telling them they were wrong, and have no responsibility for them not accepting my declaration of how they should change."  Cheap righteousness- just words, no effort in dealing with another as a human being, no trying to understand the "Other"  the "Not-like-me".
So true...so true....
As soon as anyone says "love the sinner but hate the sin" on Christian forums, alarm bells go off in my head, because they never express love for the "sinner" even when they have repented from their sin and valiantly struggle with their passion. It's like when someone begins a sentence with the words "With all due respect..." More often than not, they actually mean the exact opposite. I never see the "love for the sinner" being expressed in the "love-the-sinner-but-hate-the-sin" approach. All that I ever see is the "hate for the sin"; which is usually delivered with an air of self-righteousness combined with a pinch of false humility. And when it becomes rude, patronizing, ascerbic etc., then they start revealing their true colours in their hatred for the sinner also, and "love the sinner but hate the sin" is revealed as nothing more than a meaningless platitude.
I'd love to ask these "love the sinner but hate the sin" people how many sinners they have actually managed to bring to Christ using their method.
If anyone is interested in looking at genuine love which actually has brought people to Christ, while at the same time, upholding the teachings of the Church, then they may want to have a read of this thread: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,7154.0.html
That thread (to date) is the best example I've ever seen of "speaking the truth in love" on this forum.
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« Reply #143 on: June 29, 2007, 01:21:31 AM »

As soon as anyone says "love the sinner but hate the sin" on Christian forums, alarm bells go off in my head, because they never express love for the "sinner" even when they have repented from their sin and valiantly struggle with their passion.
I confess that this is a subject that I don't know yet *how* to deal with. Raised in an extremely conservative religious town in an extremely conservative religious part of the country, I've never personally known a gay person (that I know of), and so I've never before needed to deal with it. Now there are more and more people 'coming out' so to speak, and it's something that I'm confronted with almost daily. Where I presently work at is primarily dominated by a 'good ol boy' rural mentality that typically isn't overly receptive to anyone not White or Christian, let alone homosexuals (I know I know- how can one be Christian and rascist...) I don't want to sound callous or insensitive re: this subject, but I just don't know how to deal with it. Believe me, I am trying (through prayer and reading) to be more understanding and loving. I really hope I haven't offended anyone by my posts, I truly apologize if I have.
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« Reply #144 on: June 29, 2007, 01:30:02 AM »

I don't want to sound callous or insensitive re: this subject, but I just don't know how to deal with it.
I understand quite well where you're coming from.  I needed a few years to learn how to deal with a close friend's revelation that he was gay.

Tying this in with the OP by connecting this thought to something someone else said:  it's all too easy (and therefore cowardly) to think that one can deal with someone's struggles with homosexual attraction by hiding behind a written letter, an e-mail, or a post on an internet forum, because face-to-face interaction with the person is avoided.  I know; I've done it before.
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« Reply #145 on: June 29, 2007, 01:48:39 AM »

I confess that this is a subject that I don't know yet *how* to deal with. Raised in an extremely conservative religious town in an extremely conservative religious part of the country, I've never personally known a gay person (that I know of), and so I've never before needed to deal with it. Now there are more and more people 'coming out' so to speak, and it's something that I'm confronted with almost daily. Where I presently work at is primarily dominated by a 'good ol boy' rural mentality that typically isn't overly receptive to anyone not White or Christian, let alone homosexuals (I know I know- how can one be Christian and rascist...) I don't want to sound callous or insensitive re: this subject, but I just don't know how to deal with it. Believe me, I am trying (through prayer and reading) to be more understanding and loving. I really hope I haven't offended anyone by my posts, I truly apologize if I have.

Just treat gay people like you would want to be treated.
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« Reply #146 on: June 29, 2007, 10:31:52 AM »

I confess that this is a subject that I don't know yet *how* to deal with.
I think that's the first and most important step towards understanding how to deal with anything.
The next step, I think, is trying to make a connection with something in my own experience. For example, I know what it's like to crave a cigarette even though I know that smoking them does me damage. But no amount of public health warnings was ever able to stop me smoking. I even worked in palliative care with people dying of lung cancer and emphysema, and even that didn't stop me smoking. My Mother (God rest her) called it "the incense of the devil" and my Father (God rest him) once got me to take a $10 note out of my wallet and burned it in front of me saying "It would be better if you burned your money this way!"- and even that didn't stop me!
After a period of some years with my current Confessor, and having dealt with some more pressing spiritual matters, he got me to start looking at my nicotine addiction, not as something to be eliminated, but rather, as an opportunity for spiritual growth. Rather than listing all the reasons why I shouldn't smoke (which I knew anyway), he got me to start looking at the possibility of learning live with nicotine craving, and using it as a way of coming closer to God. As St. Anthony the Great says: "Whoever has not experienced temptation cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Without temptations no-one can be saved.'
If we think of smoking as sinful and morally wrong, then nicotine craving is the passion and is morally neutral. This is the Orthodox understanding of the difference between "passion" and "sin".
Similarly, homosexual orientation is the passion (and therefore morally neutral) while homosexual acts are the sin, and morally wrong. As a psychologist, I think that this Orthodox view offers the only way out of what is termed "Ego-Dystonic Homosexuality". In the Diagnostic Manual we use to  diagnose mental illness, homosexuality is not a mental disorder unless the homosexual themselves considers it to be disorder, that is, their homosexuality is dystonic to their own self identity. Now, among some Protestant and Catholic groups, the current "treatment" for ego-dystonic homosexuality such as "Courage International" and "Exodus International" is "reparative therapy", that is "reorienting" the sexual attraction. The problem with this is it just doesn't work. I personally know of two members of "Exodus International" who have committed suicide (one after having entered a hetrosexual marriage as part of his "reorientation"). It's boloney. It would be like myself trying to give up smoking by pretending that my very powerful cravings for cigarettes don't exist. Let me tell you, they darn well do exist!
With it's keen understanding of how the passions work and how to manage them, Orthodoxy offers a way out of homosexual behaviour while not attempting to deny the existence of homosexual orientation. It offers another option- yes, a difficult one, but an option nonetheless, and that is the martyric path of chastity. And St. John Climakos in "The Ladder of Divine Assent" makes this keen observation in Step 15:24:
"Do not expect to overthrow the demon of fornication with refutations and pleadings. For, with nature on his side, he has the best of the argument."
Orthodoxy acknowledges that, in demanding that the People of God avoid fornication (whether heterosexually or homosexually) she is demanding something which goes against nature. In other words, she acknowledges that yes, the desire is there, but that we are not to act on it. This is a big ask, and St. John Climacus acknowledges this when he says in Step 15:7:
"Let no one thoroughly trained in purity attribute its attainment to himself. For it is impossible for anyone to conquer his own nature. When nature is defeated, it should be recognised that this is due to the presence of Him Who is above nature. For beyond all dispute, the weaker gives way to the Stronger."
So, rather than continually rattle off the same stuff about "homosexual agendas" and "homosexual sin" that occur on every Christian forum, why don't we offer on an Orthodox forum the unique perspective that yes, homosexual orientation exists, just as the desire to fornicate or be an adulterer exists, and these are "natural", but even this does not mean that acting on these "natural desires" is morally neutral. And even more importantly, we can offer the uniquely Orthodox understanding of the difference between passion and sin which may offer homosexuals a way out of having to act on their desires, while at the same time not attempting to deny that their desires exist.
But if the only thing we have to offer is the same old hackneyed thing that one sees on every Christian forum such as "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" then what's the point? No one's gonna listen, it's the same rubbish they get everywhere.
We cannot tell people outside the Church how to live their sexual lives. And with nature on their side (as St. John Clmacus points out) they'd laugh us to scorn. All we can do is bear witness to another way, and offer it as an alternative.
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« Reply #147 on: June 29, 2007, 10:49:39 AM »

Wow!

"ozgeorge, the New Theologian"

Impressive
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« Reply #148 on: June 29, 2007, 11:00:12 AM »

Wow!

"ozgeorge, the New Theologian"

Impressive

Yes, most impressive.  And very well stated.
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« Reply #149 on: June 29, 2007, 11:21:54 AM »

Wow!

"ozgeorge, the New Theologian"

Impressive

I totally agree!  That's incredibly impressive, ozgeorge.  I've never seen it put that way before, at least so succinctly and clearly, tying in not only St. John Climacus (which should impress anyone with the slightest inclination to Eastern theology) but also making a great point at the end regarding "another way".
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« Reply #150 on: June 29, 2007, 03:10:20 PM »

I think what riles most decent people is the normalization of Sodomy.  The organized Gay mafia (a minority with a big voice) is an attack on family.  Sodomy, narcissism, fornication and adultery are sins that need to be confessed.  Of course we should condemn the sin not the sinner.  However the Epistles warn us what will happen to those unrepentant sexual deviants - sad, but that's free will.   It is curious that smoking is now an international sin - due to be banned on planet earth, yet sexual deviency is simply a matter of choice.
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« Reply #151 on: June 29, 2007, 06:38:04 PM »

I think what riles most decent people is the normalization of Sodomy.  The organized Gay mafia (a minority with a big voice) is an attack on family.  Sodomy, narcissism, fornication and adultery are sins that need to be confessed.  Of course we should condemn the sin not the sinner.  However the Epistles warn us what will happen to those unrepentant sexual deviants - sad, but that's free will.   It is curious that smoking is now an international sin - due to be banned on planet earth, yet sexual deviency is simply a matter of choice.

Have you not been reading this thread, Observer?  What you've just done is provide us the perfect example of how NOT to speak the truth in love, how to condemn the sinner together with the sin.  You focus so much on condemning homosexual behavior that you think it equally important to show how gays will be punished with everlasting fire.  How is it loving to call gays sexual deviants?  This is not love.  This is self-righteous judgment.  How can you say that your righteousness is greater than that of the gay man?  Do you--does any one of us--have such control of your anger that you can ever separate your "zeal for truth" from your own base passion of anger?  Is "righteous indignation" such as you show here ever truly righteous?
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« Reply #152 on: June 30, 2007, 12:32:23 AM »


 I think we're finally reaching a point on this forum where genuine Christian dialogue is taking place (re: this subject at least). I would like to hear from folks on this forum who are struggling with this passion (providing they're comfortable in doing so). I think us hetero's discussing this issue with each other is helpful, but hearing from those folks who struggle with it can provide an insider's insight.
 Those of you who are trying to overcome it and deal with it, do you see our culture's acceptance of homosexuality as something that's helpful in your struggle, or do you see it as a setback. It seems to me that it could be both. On the one hand, we're talking and discussing it openly and with maturity these days (as opposed to 10-15 years ago). Yet on the other hand, it seems that it could be a hindrance if one is truly trying to overcome it and deal with it (with every media outlet telling you that it's natural and nothing wrong with it). This analogy, BTW, can be used with heterosexuals as well. We're all constantly being barraged with sex through almost every form of media. 
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« Reply #153 on: June 30, 2007, 01:41:39 AM »

I think we're finally reaching a point on this forum where genuine Christian dialogue is taking place (re: this subject at least).
I don't want to sound too negative, but if I've learned anything in participating on Christian forums, it's that they never "finally reach a point" on anything. There will always be new members who will not bother to read what has been discussed in the past, and the discussion has to start all over again.  That's just the nature of forums. And I dare say that our older, homosexual-oriented posters have seen this time and time again, so they cannot be blamed for not wanting to go through it again.
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« Reply #154 on: June 30, 2007, 03:18:11 AM »

I don't want to sound too negative, but if I've learned anything in participating on Christian forums, it's that they never "finally reach a point" on anything. There will always be new members who will not bother to read what has been discussed in the past, and the discussion has to start all over again.  That's just the nature of forums. And I dare say that our older, homosexual-oriented posters have seen this time and time again, so they cannot be blamed for not wanting to go through it again.
Yes, I agree it can get tiresome. However, since we know that this will inevetably happen again, rather than throw our arms up in the air and showing agitation (and I'm not refering to anyone here- just generally speaking), just post the relevant threads for them to look read. Then, when they have questions or comments, try to guide them in love to a more mature, Christian perspective. I mean, it worked for me afterall.  Wink

And as far as the older, homosexual-oriented posters go, when they speak up on these threads it suddenly gives pause to the other posters. I for one, didn't expect there to be any homosexuals on the OC.net. Naive? Yes. Sobering? Very. Suddenly we were no longer talking about sinners, but talking to other humans who had their own passions they were/are struggling with. I hope I'm making sense here.
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« Reply #155 on: June 30, 2007, 03:23:40 AM »

Yes, I agree it can get tiresome. However, since we know that this will inevetably happen again, rather than throw our arms up in the air and showing agitation (and I'm not refering to anyone here- just generally speaking), just post the relevant threads for them to look read. Then, when they have questions or comments, try to guide them in love to a more mature, Christian perspective. I mean, it worked for me afterall.  Wink
You know, that might just very well work!
It certainly seems to have worked for the topic of mensturation which also kept coming up again and again: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,9448.0.html.
Thanks for the suggestion, I'll talk it over with Fr. Chris and the other moderators!
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« Reply #156 on: June 30, 2007, 06:42:19 PM »

I think that's the first and most important step towards understanding how to deal with anything.
The next step, I think, is trying to make a connection with something in my own experience. ....

I cut it to save crunchons, but this is a wonderful post,  OzGeorge, and I'm going to read it over again.

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« Reply #157 on: July 03, 2007, 09:30:17 PM »

MODERATION:
I have split off the tangential discussion on STD's and fornication into this thread:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,12052.0.html

George

EDIT: I'm temporarily locking this topic for a few hours until the people who wish to discuss STD's and fornication read this moderatorial post and realise where they should be posting!

EDIT2: OK, I think people got the point now. I'm unlocking this thread again.
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« Reply #158 on: June 05, 2008, 06:03:11 PM »

It's now a toss-up between the Prozac theory and closet case theory.
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« Reply #159 on: June 05, 2008, 07:14:07 PM »

Oh, if you add the two Prozac options together, that one wins by a landslide. Can you write prescriptions, George?
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« Reply #160 on: June 05, 2008, 09:59:48 PM »

It probably comes up alot because secular society is trying to normalize homosexuality and, at this point in history, appears to be succeeding.
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« Reply #161 on: June 05, 2008, 10:11:33 PM »

We don't have 'people with two arms and two legs rights groups' either...what's the point? 95% of the population has premarital sex, society already approves of this activity (or at least 95% of society has demonstrated by their actions that they approve of it, of those 95% who feign not to, they're hypocrites).

Only in backwards states dominated by evangelical protestants where it's still acceptable to marry your first cousin. Here in California (as in much of the west) we have community property, in case of divorce everyone gets half of all community property, it's a simple matter of civil (as opposed to common) law.

Sorry, Greeki.  Louisiana (last I checked it's dominated by evangelical protestants, and no, you can't marry your cousin there.  Btw, you can do that in as blue a State as Illinois, home of our own Mr. Obama.  You can't, btw, marry your cousin in Illinois and move to Lousiana and have it recognized.  It's an absolute nullity) is the only state with civil law, and even that is mixed, due to being attatched to the U.S.  Everyone else is common law.  And the matter isn't that simple, as the amounts that divorce lawyers rake in shows.

It probably comes up alot because secular society is trying to normalize homosexuality and, at this point in history, appears to be succeeding.

Yes.  Depravity has become a sign of sophistication.  Did so in Rome.  We know how that went (or should know).

Why can't this answer be a possibility in the poll?  None of the rest of the options come even close to expressing my belief.  Not I think a serious attempt was being made to represent the people who have made negative statements about homosexual acts.

The thought police can't handle that possibilty, upsets their smug little universe.

Perhaps they are just closet conservatives? Roll Eyes

So in other words, if you're not homeschooling half a dozen kids, you don't have anything worthwhile to say. Roll Eyes

Having been in high school and junior high and all not terribly long ago, I don't recall anything that would remotely resemble some sort of "homosexual educational agenda."  Even in college, the only time I encountered anything close to that was the small gay-rights group on campus when they sponsored coming out day and most people just thought that was silly.

I'm assuming you went to school in Texas, or a similar red state.

I teach in a high school in Illinois.  Yes, it's an issue.

In an indirect way I think the last tangent has helped to answer the initial question, albeit indirectly, why are people on Orthodox forums so obsessed with homoseuxality? The very fact that the arguments are emotional in nature and full of logical fallacies, coming from a 'me against the world' mindset, a martyr complex if you will, reveals much about the psychology that drives this discussion. In short it's an irrational fear arising from repressed sexuality. Take a recent post, objection to a movie that did not try to force people into being gay, but rather addressed the issue in an objective and non-judgmental light, is violently attacked as a radical homosexual agenda. It's fear, irrationality, guilt, and in many cases a very unhealthy view of one's own sexuality using religion and morality as a sword and shield...prozac can only do so much.
.

Closet conservative.  Definitely.

To tie this all into the topic: it comes up because this is the only vice, condemned as such by the Church, that it seems that those who claim to be Orthodox will go out and defend.  Besides Greeki, I don't see any threads advocating fornication, adultery, etc... or theft, blasphemy, lying, killing etc.  Perhaps if you did, there would be more threads on these other vices.  And because they are defending something that the Church specifically condemns, they 1. have to portray themselves as the vanguard of the new dispensation 2. condemn those who refuse to be "enlightened" as backwards, ignorant, etc. or any other ad hominem handy (that's a logical fallacy, Greeki).  It would be interesting to explore the psychology of those so affected.  Maybe I should post a poll: diagnosis by skewed polling seems fun.

perhaps a better comparision would be the amount of Orthodox posters on sites under Rome, on the issue of annullments.
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« Reply #162 on: June 05, 2008, 10:59:38 PM »

How about "None of the above?"

I would vote if I had that choice.  None of the other choices are that appealing to me.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #163 on: June 05, 2008, 11:09:35 PM »

It probably comes up alot because secular society is trying to normalize homosexuality and, at this point in history, appears to be succeeding.
Bingo!  Papist, your finger's on the pulse of the matter.  But, if I may, add another observation?  A tiny minority of Orthodox have began to buy into the 'civil rights' angle of the argument and hopped right up on the rainbow wagon with all the rest of the left-wing fruitloops while the rest of us can't abide.
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« Reply #164 on: June 05, 2008, 11:09:49 PM »

Bingo!  Papist, you got your finger on the pulse of the matter. 

Yes, the pulse of the aorta.

How about "None of the above?"

I would vote if I had that choice.  None of the other choices are that appealing to me.   Roll Eyes

You don't get it.  When the liberal wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.

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« Reply #165 on: June 05, 2008, 11:10:00 PM »

Sorry, Greeki.  Louisiana (last I checked it's dominated by evangelical protestants, and no, you can't marry your cousin there.  Btw, you can do that in as blue a State as Illinois, home of our own Mr. Obama.  You can't, btw, marry your cousin in Illinois and move to Lousiana and have it recognized.  It's an absolute nullity) is the only state with civil law, and even that is mixed, due to being attatched to the U.S.  Everyone else is common law.  And the matter isn't that simple, as the amounts that divorce lawyers rake in shows.

Ummm...our Marriage law is derived from Mexican law which ultimately came from the Visigothic Code...and I never said we were a civil law jurisdiction, only that this element of our legal system (as well as a small number of other cases) is based in civil law.

Quote
Closet conservative.  Definitely.

Libertarianism to be more percise. No action can possibly be wrong or immoral if it does not deprive another individual of their life, liberty, or property.

Quote
To tie this all into the topic: it comes up because this is the only vice, condemned as such by the Church, that it seems that those who claim to be Orthodox will go out and defend.  Besides Greeki, I don't see any threads advocating fornication, adultery, etc... or theft, blasphemy, lying, killing etc.

You sure about that? I have stated time and time again that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fornication. As for adultery, while it may be damaging to the relationship as it does not deprive an individual of life, liberty, or property it would be beyond absurd to legally restrict it. As for theft, that generally does deprive another individual of their property, but even then some have accused me of advocating it for my support of fair use. Blasphemy...give me a break...the gods should be able to defend themselves, it's comical (and at the same time really quite quaint) that anyone would even be concerned about it; if it is legislated against, such legislation is tryannical, an evil beyond all other evils. As for lying, it depends on the context, of course, few would argue that perjury is acceptable as it undermines our system of jurisprudence but telling a fat person they're skinny or an ugly person they're attractive is just polite. Oh, and as for killing, of course it depends on the context, most everyone believes in cases where killing is acceptable, personally I'm all for abortion, war, execution in some instances, and genocide (j/k about the last one Wink).

In the end your moral code is simply overly simplistic and laughable.

Quote
Perhaps if you did, there would be more threads on these other vices.  And because they are defending something that the Church specifically condemns, they 1. have to portray themselves as the vanguard of the new dispensation 2. condemn those who refuse to be "enlightened" as backwards, ignorant, etc. or any other ad hominem handy (that's a logical fallacy, Greeki).  It would be interesting to explore the psychology of those so affected.  Maybe I should post a poll: diagnosis by skewed polling seems fun.

In the end, I don't really care what the Church has said in the past, she has changed her views before and no doubt will again. While there is a fundamentalist wing that wants to return to the 'golden age' of the fourth century the hierarchy is a bit more pragmatic; it will change with the times, recognizing the danger of not doing so. Plus, fortunately the insistence on Episcopal Celibacy has ensured that the homosexual lobby will always have a powerful and significant influence at the highest levels of ecclesiastical governance...you're a bit out of luck with this one. Wink
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« Reply #166 on: June 06, 2008, 12:14:05 AM »

Ummm...our Marriage law is derived from Mexican law which ultimately came from the Visigothic Code
A quick LexisNexis search didn't reveal that.  Wrong again? (I'm willing to see proof of your assertion.  In the constitutional convention the gringos outnumbered others Californios 6 to 1.  The Californios disappeared).

Quote
...and I never said we were a civil law jurisdiction, only that this element of our legal system (as well as a small number of other cases) is based in civil law.

Wrong again:
CALIFORNIA CIVIL CODE  DEFINITIONS AND SOURCES OF LAW
Cal Civ Code § 22.2 (2007) § 22.2.  Common law as rule of decision: The common law of England, so far as it is not repugnant to or inconsistent with the Constitution of the United States, or the Constitution or laws of this State, is the rule of decision in all the courts of this State.

There is no such thing, per se, as civil law.  It is the procedure (and the associated issues like burden of proof, etc.) which distinguishes civil and criminal law.  The distinction evaporates, for instance, in the question of child support, where it is a private interest but the state enforces (and in many jurisdictions, collects) it.  The distinction does help divorce courts to dispense with all those guarentees, like the ban on debtors prison, that other courts have to deal with.


Quote
Libertarianism to be more percise. No action can possibly be wrong or immoral if it does not deprive another individual of their life, liberty, or property.

What do you call a cheap liberal?  A libertarian.

Quote
You sure about that? I have stated time and time again that there is absolutely nothing wrong with fornication.


Hence why I brought you up.

Quote
As for adultery, while it may be damaging to the relationship as it does not deprive an individual of life, liberty, or property it would be beyond absurd to legally restrict it.

Wrong again.  Wade through the case law on divorce.

Quote
As for theft, that generally does deprive another individual of their property, but even then some have accused me of advocating it for my support of fair use.

Wrong again. 

Quote
Blasphemy...give me a break...the gods should be able to defend themselves, it's comical (and at the same time really quite quaint) that anyone would even be concerned about it; if it is legislated against, such legislation is tryannical, an evil beyond all other evils.


Wrong again, spouting dogma yet again against dogma.

Quote
As for lying, it depends on the context, of course, few would argue that perjury is acceptable as it undermines our system of jurisprudence

Wrong again.  Again, wade through the divorce case law, but other sources would prove a rich treasure trove of perjury.

Quote
but telling a fat person they're skinny or an ugly person they're attractive is just polite.


Wrong again.  Compliment them on good qualities they do possess (looking at the positive might be a new experience for you, I understand).


Quote
Oh, and as for killing, of course it depends on the context, most everyone believes in cases where killing is acceptable, personally I'm all for abortion, war, execution in some instances, and genocide


Wrong again.  Why only "some instance."

Quote
(j/k about the last one Wink).

Wrong again, or is that lying? Wink

Quote
In the end your moral code is simply overly simplistic

Wrong again. Apply Occam's razor...

 
Quote
and laughable.

...then again, maybe don't.  Wouldn't want you to cut yourself on sharp objects. (I notice you didn't include suicide in your list of acceptable killing).

Quote
In the end, I don't really care what the Church has said in the past,


how about the present?

Quote
she has changed her views before

yes, this mantra doesn't seem to have worked, despite repetition.


 
Quote
and no doubt will again.


you have just exceeded the empirical evidence you tout.

Quote
While there is a fundamentalist wing that wants to return


Return? When did it leave?

Quote
to the 'golden age' of the fourth century the hierarchy is a bit more pragmatic;


Yes, that's why the EP is head hiearch.


Quote
it will change with the times,


You mean Alexei will be moved to the top of the dyptichs?  He's even more down on the topic at hand: remember the priest the PoM defrocked and the Church bulldozed when a gay "marriage" took place?

Quote
recognizing the danger of not doing so.

Fortunately, so far they have recognized the danger of doing so.


Quote
Plus, fortunately the insistence on Episcopal Celibacy has ensured that the homosexual lobby will always have a powerful and significant influence at the highest levels of ecclesiastical governance...you're a bit out of luck with this one. Wink
I actually have inside information on this.  No, it hasn't changed things a bit.

Of course the fallacy celibacy=homosexuality is also how many make the claim that history has been "straightened" out.  Of course the Church's praise of celibacy is that it is not of this world.  Hence, I don't expect you to understand.
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« Reply #167 on: June 06, 2008, 12:30:59 AM »

You don't get it.  When the liberal wants your opinion, he'll give it to you.

The herd of independent minds.  Think what ever you like, as long as you agree with them.

I didn't agree with the options.   Grin
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« Reply #168 on: June 06, 2008, 12:35:27 AM »

I didn't agree with the options.   Grin

There you go again, thinking for yourself, and without apology!  The audacity Wink
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« Reply #169 on: June 06, 2008, 04:12:25 AM »

his complaints essentially amounted to 'mind your own business'.

If only people could just learn to do that.

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« Reply #170 on: June 06, 2008, 04:26:40 AM »

I personally believe that this topic comes up so often because of lack of compassion for those foibles that are not our own; or those we are working to overthrow because "we have seen the light". It always amazes me that a new Christian will be the biggest sinner on the block on Friday night; "come to the Lord" on Saturday; shout it to the rooftops on Sunday; and then go out and condemn his/her fellow sinners on Monday - often those they were sinning with on Friday night. What amazes me even more is that some Christians don't move from that spot. It's like they hate to see freewill in action.



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« Reply #171 on: June 06, 2008, 04:31:38 AM »

One thought that occurs to me is that the subject might come up so frequently because it might be an instance of "cheap righteousness", that is the idea that putting up a vehement post from behind the, as it were, shield of a computer screen, may give the writer good feelings that they are taking a stand without dealing with real human beings face to face. 

It is among the topics that I have seen written about with, shall we say, strong words and uncharitable language that do not show any concern for the feelings or empathy with other people.  (for example the "bitter pill" remark, telling someone to do something that the speaker would not and in a cruel way.)  When such a lack of charity is brought up, a very common response is that being polite/charitable/courteous would not *really* be "loving" because the target person would think that being kind meant that whatever it is that they do/are is OK.  That a real "loving" response is the verbal equivalent of a baseball bat or a dead fish up-side the head.   Undecided  Then if the other person rejects the post it is all their own fault and responsibility that they are not accepting the True Way(tm) as laid down by the one who was blunt/cruel/uncharitable.  A kind of "I did my part by telling them they were wrong, and have no responsibility for them not accepting my declaration of how they should change."  Cheap righteousness- just words, no effort in dealing with another as a human being, no trying to understand the "Other"  the "Not-like-me".

I hope that that is not too convoluted.  I am not addressing this at any one, just looking at the question of the original post, and offering an idea.

With respect,

Ebor

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« Reply #172 on: June 06, 2008, 08:11:41 AM »

I personally believe that this topic comes up so often because of lack of compassion for those foibles that are not our own; or those we are working to overthrow because "we have seen the light". It always amazes me that a new Christian will be the biggest sinner on the block on Friday night; "come to the Lord" on Saturday; shout it to the rooftops on Sunday; and then go out and condemn his/her fellow sinners on Monday - often those they were sinning with on Friday night. What amazes me even more is that some Christians don't move from that spot. It's like they hate to see freewill in action.
Well said!

Homosexuality is a struggle for all of us, whether those who struggle with same-sex attraction itself or we who struggle not to condemn those who do. So many find it so easy to quote St. Paul's condemnation of homosexuality, but they forget Jesus' words, "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you” (Luke 6:37-38). Being a sinner myself, I certainly would rather be forgiven than condemned for my struggles. Therefore, I should do the same for others. Is that not what our Lord called the greatest commandment?
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« Reply #173 on: June 06, 2008, 09:45:11 AM »

Honestly I don't think that homosexuality comes up over and over again just because everyone hates gays. As I said before, the reason that homosexuality comes up is that our society has made it an issue. For over about thrity to forty years, active homosexuals have been pushing an agenda to bring homosexuality out into the open and present the homosexual life style as a normal and viable alternative to the heterosexuality. Before this sixties, this was nearly unheard of. Homosexuality was quite rightly viewed as a disorder, sinful, and unhealhty. The big change in the way our society views the matter and has continually brought it to the forfront of discussion over the past few decades has made homosexuality a big political topic of conversation that it simply was not in the past. This is not the fault of Christians, Orthodox, Catholic, or otherwise, but rather the society at large that has made the issue so "important". Since Christian ethics rejects homosexuality, Christians now are forced to deal with an issue that secular culture is basically shoving in everyone's face whether they like it or not. If anyone really wants to point a finger for making the homosexual agenda an issue they should not be pointing a finger at Christians who are responding to a matter becuase of their faith. Rather, point the finger at those who continue to force the issue.
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« Reply #174 on: June 06, 2008, 09:45:11 AM »

Well said!

Homosexuality is a struggle for all of us, whether those who struggle with same-sex attraction itself or we who struggle not to condemn those who do. So many find it so easy to quote St. Paul's condemnation of homosexuality, but they forget Jesus' words, "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you” (Luke 6:37-38). Being a sinner myself, I certainly would rather be forgiven than condemned for my struggles. Therefore, I should do the same for others. Is that not what our Lord called the greatest commandment?

I agree, of course, but, unfortunately, there is another verse in the New Testament that is often quoted by bigots: 1 Cor. 2:15, "but he, who is spiritual, judges all things (in some translations, "everything," or "all that exists," i.e. people as well), yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." Naturally, bigots always know that they are "spiritual..." Also, I heard some people very seriously say that Christ's words prohibiting to judge were addressed to those whom He knew as hypocrites; for example, Judas the Iskariot was most definitely present during the Sermon of the Mount...

Ah, Scripture, Scripture, wonderful Scripture. What a great stick to beat one's opponent on the head till he dies. Sad
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 09:45:38 AM by Heorhij » Logged

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« Reply #175 on: June 06, 2008, 09:52:06 AM »

All the above reasons may very well be true, but it seems to me that it comes up so much because the topic gets shoved down our throat.  In my daily life, I never hear anyone bring it up. I work with straight people, homosexual people, christian people, people unmarried living together, muslim people, basically every sort of belief and value you can imagine(lot of interesting people in advertising) and we all get along well.  Very well in fact.  But when you get people on court house steps and making headlines about gay marriage, gay adoption, hellfire, carrying signs invoking God's judgement, etc. I don't see how it's any surprise that people would then be talking about it.  And since it is something that most people either don't understand or don't agree with, for most I don't think bringing it up is anything evil or judgemental, it's just kinda, "Hey, that doesn't seem quite right."

Now my rant for the day. As with most issues like this, it's the people pointing fingers on both sides, calling each other judgemental, etc. that blows this topic up and in a sense makes everyone passing judgement in both directions a hypocrite. You've got your red necks, you've got your militant homosexuals, you've got your right wing zealots, you've got your holier than thou liberals.  I wish they would just fight it out in a locked room. 

Modified to remove an acronym referring to a profane expression.  I know that you meant nothing wrong by it.  Let's try to avoid profanity or reference to it whenever possible.  Thanks.  Pravoslavbob.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2008, 12:42:26 PM by Pravoslavbob » Logged
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« Reply #176 on: June 06, 2008, 10:06:09 AM »

Oh, and to stir the pot and refer to the poll.  Reading these posts, in general, it seems that those who get the most worked up and most in need of Prozac are the ones saying, "Who are you to cast the first stone, who are you to judge, etc.!"   Wink


We should have this poll:

What is the most quoted scripture we throw down when people do or say something we don't like and use scripture to back up the position we don't like:
1) Judge not lest ye be judged.
2) Take the log out of your own eye.
3) Ye without sin cast the first stone.
4) etc.  Shocked

and when you are on the other side of the coin:

What is the most quoted scripture when you don't agree with someone's behavior and want to smack them down:
1) Any verse that say "don't do this"


The most intriguing thing to me about life, scriptures, the church, etc. are all the dichotomies we have to work through.  Their are plenty of verses that tell us not to judge, but their are just as many judging and giving us criteria to judge.  God created everything, except for evil. Turn the other cheek, but tear down the money changers. Love your brother as yourself, but walk away from said brother if you need to to follow Christ. Etc., etc.

The dichotomies are really why we argue so much on this stuff.  There is a side of the coin that agrees with all of us.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 10:21:31 AM by livefreeordie » Logged
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« Reply #177 on: June 06, 2008, 10:09:06 AM »

I didn't vote since I don't agree with the options. Which one is winning?
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« Reply #178 on: June 06, 2008, 10:09:06 AM »

I wish they would just fight it out in a locked room.  
Could it be ninja batle? I'd pay to see that.
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« Reply #179 on: June 06, 2008, 10:09:59 AM »

I agree, of course, but, unfortunately, there is another verse in the New Testament that is often quoted by bigots: 1 Cor. 2:15, "but he, who is spiritual, judges all things (in some translations, "everything," or "all that exists," i.e. people as well), yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." Naturally, bigots always know that they are "spiritual..." Also, I heard some people very seriously say that Christ's words prohibiting to judge were addressed to those whom He knew as hypocrites; for example, Judas the Iskariot was most definitely present during the Sermon of the Mount...

Ah, Scripture, Scripture, wonderful Scripture. What a great stick to beat one's opponent on the head till he dies. Sad

Great post George!
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