OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 30, 2014, 12:26:21 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Use hell verses in bible to fear demons when we exorcise?  (Read 2237 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« on: November 11, 2012, 05:54:27 AM »

I am still in Chrismatic Church now. ( I will visit the Orthodox Church in Hong Kong  next week laugh)

Recently,I heard a man was possessed by the demons. When the staff in my Church  cast out the demons from that man's body, He(e.g.that staff) forces that man to read the Scripture verses which is about Hell and the ending of demons, like Rev20:10 . That man( or the demons insides that men) feel fear and then run away immedidately. Do you think it is appropriate to use Hell verse to fear the demons when we exorcise ?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 06:09:36 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2012, 09:03:47 AM »

You need to look into how The Orthodox Church deals with this. I am not an expert.

I know that these exorcism are always read by the priest. Those who are exorcised need to fast and confess, otherwise the curses do not work. I don't think it has to do with scaring demons because they don't really get scared. It has to do with the fact that The Lord gave us power over Satan. The priest basically orders the demons to leave just like Christ did. As always, we need to stay away from literally fighting with demons and being hateful towards them; this will call them even more, not send them away. It's all about the power that God gave us, the way we repent (our purity), the power of The Cross (symbol of God's love and sacrifice), etc. The Orthodox Church does not believe in violence and hate, even towards demons. We hate their condition, their sin, but not themselves.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 09:08:21 AM by IoanC » Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2012, 10:36:55 AM »

You need to look into how The Orthodox Church deals with this. I am not an expert.

I know that these exorcism are always read by the priest. Those who are exorcised need to fast and confess, otherwise the curses do not work. I don't think it has to do with scaring demons because they don't really get scared. It has to do with the fact that The Lord gave us power over Satan. The priest basically orders the demons to leave just like Christ did. As always, we need to stay away from literally fighting with demons and being hateful towards them; this will call them even more, not send them away. It's all about the power that God gave us, the way we repent (our purity), the power of The Cross (symbol of God's love and sacrifice), etc. The Orthodox Church does not believe in violence and hate, even towards demons. We hate their condition, their sin, but not themselves.

You say the demons inside that man's body don't really get scared. They just make a false show of scaring but not really get scared. Why do the demons do so?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 10:38:46 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2012, 10:55:53 AM »

You say the demons inside that man's body don't really get scared. They just make a false show of scaring but not really get scared. Why do the demons do so?

Well, they hate being exorcised, but the exorcism is not about scaring them away. There is something deeper going on like I said -- it has to do with the power that God gave us, our faith, our purity, etc. It's not as simple as saying a few things that scare them away.

Plus, I am speaking for the Orthodox Church. I am not exactly replying to your own experiences elsewhere.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 11:00:43 AM by IoanC » Logged

Sinful Hypocrite
Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians."
Posts: 1,651


Great googly moogly!


« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2012, 08:27:29 PM »

You need to look into how The Orthodox Church deals with this. I am not an expert.

I know that these exorcism are always read by the priest. Those who are exorcised need to fast and confess, otherwise the curses do not work. I don't think it has to do with scaring demons because they don't really get scared. It has to do with the fact that The Lord gave us power over Satan. The priest basically orders the demons to leave just like Christ did. As always, we need to stay away from literally fighting with demons and being hateful towards them; this will call them even more, not send them away. It's all about the power that God gave us, the way we repent (our purity), the power of The Cross (symbol of God's love and sacrifice), etc. The Orthodox Church does not believe in violence and hate, even towards demons. We hate their condition, their sin, but not themselves.

I am no expert on this, but it seems to me what Jesus said to the disciples was that it was them who had to fast and pray,and have more faith to have the ability to cast out Demons.

Matthew 17
The Healing of a Boy With a Demon

14When they came to the crowd, a man approached Jesus and knelt before him. 15“Lord, have mercy on my son,” he said. “He has seizures and is suffering greatly. He often falls into the fire or into the water. 16I brought him to your disciples, but they could not heal him.”

17“O unbelieving and perverse generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy here to me.” 18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.a”

22When they came together in Galilee, he said to them, “The Son of Man is going to be betrayed into the hands of men. 23They will kill him, and on the third day he will be raised to life.” And the disciples were filled with grief.
Logged

The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.

"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2012, 02:09:30 PM »

Quote

Do you think the pastor in video really cast out the demons?
« Last Edit: November 21, 2012, 02:09:47 PM by walter1234 » Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,485



« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2012, 02:40:21 PM »

Quote

Do you think the pastor in video really cast out the demons?

If there is a demon of doing a really bad Rhianna impression, I am not sure he fasted or prayed enough this time around.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,485



« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2012, 02:41:55 PM »

Quote

Do you think the pastor in video really cast out the demons?

If there is a demon of doing a really bad Rhianna impression, I am not sure he fasted or prayed enough this time around.

OK I skipped toward the end of the first few obnoxious seconds I watched, if this is serious, it is sad.

If it is not serious, they need better writing.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2012, 04:30:33 PM »

You need to look into how The Orthodox Church deals with this. I am not an expert.

I know that these exorcism are always read by the priest. Those who are exorcised need to fast and confess, otherwise the curses do not work. I don't think it has to do with scaring demons because they don't really get scared. It has to do with the fact that The Lord gave us power over Satan. The priest basically orders the demons to leave just like Christ did. As always, we need to stay away from literally fighting with demons and being hateful towards them; this will call them even more, not send them away. It's all about the power that God gave us, the way we repent (our purity), the power of The Cross (symbol of God's love and sacrifice), etc. The Orthodox Church does not believe in violence and hate, even towards demons. We hate their condition, their sin, but not themselves.

You say the demons inside that man's body don't really get scared. They just make a false show of scaring but not really get scared. Why do the demons do so?

because the Devil is a liar from the beggining and he will do anything to scoff.
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2012, 01:22:54 AM »

Quote

Do you think the pastor in video really cast out the demons?

We believe that only in the Orthodox Church it is possible to exorcise demons, provided that it is done by a priest and all the people involved have been fasting, confessing, etc.
Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2012, 09:04:43 AM »

Quote

Do you think the pastor in video really cast out the demons?

We believe that only in the Orthodox Church it is possible to exorcise demons, provided that it is done by a priest and all the people involved have been fasting, confessing, etc.

The Protestant and Catholic Christians cannot exorcise the demons in Jesus' name?

Can Orthodox Christians cast out the demons under the supervision and guidance of the Priest?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:07:45 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2012, 09:11:33 AM »

Quote

Do you think the pastor in video really cast out the demons?

We believe that only in the Orthodox Church it is possible to exorcise demons, provided that it is done by a priest and all the people involved have been fasting, confessing, etc.

The Protestant and Catholic Christians cannot exorcise the demons in Jesus' name?

Can Orthodox Christians cast out the demons under the supervision and guidance of the Priest?

We believe that the Orthodox Church is the only true and catholic (universal) Church and that there is no salvation outside of Her. No, only a priest is allowed to exorcise because he has a specific Grace from God that he receives upon ordination.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:12:00 AM by IoanC » Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2012, 09:18:51 AM »


We believe that the Orthodox Church is the only true and catholic (universal) Church and that there is no salvation outside of Her. No, only a priest is allowed to exorcise because he has a specific Grace from God that he receives upon ordination.

Exorcism is common in Pentecostal and Charismatic Church. Are they all false and fake?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:19:28 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2012, 09:21:56 AM »


We believe that the Orthodox Church is the only true and catholic (universal) Church and that there is no salvation outside of Her. No, only a priest is allowed to exorcise because he has a specific Grace from God that he receives upon ordination.

Exorcism is common in Pentecostal and Charismatic Church. Are they all false and fake?

Well, they are not false and fake because those people are indeed trying to exorcise. However, we believe that the Orthodox Church is the only one that has Grace, the only original and perpetual Church.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:22:24 AM by IoanC » Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2012, 09:28:21 AM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:30:02 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2012, 09:32:15 AM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not  in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:35:59 AM by IoanC » Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2012, 09:37:53 AM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not  in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake.

Orthodox Christian and Non-Orthodox Christian(Protestant and Catholic) also heal the sick and cast out demons in the name of Jesus.  What is the difference betweeen Orthodox's miraculous way and non-Orthodox's miraculous way?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:43:04 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2012, 09:42:59 AM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not  in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake.

Orthodox Christian and Non-Orthodox Christian(Protestant and Catholic) also heal the sick in the name of Jesus.  What is the difference betweeen Orthodox's miraculous way and non-Orthodox's miraculous way?

We do not believe non-Orthodox can perform miracles. They may say they do, they may think that they do, they may even lie that they do, etc., but they don't. Orthodox miracles are very obvious and transcendent. After they happen, you know for sure that it was God who performed them because He actually reveals Himself. Non-Orthodox who claim that they've seen miracles do not have that certainty that it was God for sure (even though their illness might go away, for example).
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:43:37 AM by IoanC » Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2012, 10:44:27 AM »

Quote

Are all these Orthodox Miracle come from God? How can I sure all these Orthodox miracles must be from God?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 10:51:21 AM by walter1234 » Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2012, 10:56:23 AM »

In my Protestant Church, I heard many testimonies which God changed their life after they believe in and pray to God.It seems that God still perform many works and miracles in Non-Orthodox. How to explain this testimonies?

Quote

How about this Pentecostal miracles? Many people,including doctors , their family members ,etc  proved that the man in video had already died . But after the prayer of pastor, that man was rised from the dead. How to explain this?

Quote
How to explain these healing testimonies from non- Orthodox?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 11:12:36 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2012, 11:30:32 AM »

Sorry, I cannot watch those videos. Like I said: it's one thing to pray and then heal, and another thing to receive healing as a revelation from God. For example, I've had countless colds and always healed. I probably prayed to God to heal me of many of those colds, and even though I always healed, God never told me that He healed me. I simply assumed He did.

People will claim many things, but that's subjective, it's how they perceive reality. And, things can get very deceiving in our world.
All I can say is that the Orthodox Church is the original and only Church that Christ ever established. Therefore, we believe that God works miracles only through His Church. Doesn't mean He doesn't love all people and will help them heal, but miracles are miracles, and He will only perform miracles in the True Church so that people come to The Truth and don't go astray.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 11:31:00 AM by IoanC » Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2012, 11:45:37 AM »

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother ofmy church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... : Huh  How can I know all these healings are not true miracles? How can I identify and test them?

There should be some CLEAR methods to test and identify which miracles are true and from not, which are not.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 11:51:08 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2012, 11:53:20 AM »

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother if my church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... : Huh

I agree that it can be confusing. Still, it's a matter of faith. If one believes that The Orthodox Church is the True Church, then it makes no sense for miracles to occur elsewhere. I think our definition of miracles can make a big difference. Many great things do happen in our lives that we can say are miracles, but they are not by the Orthodox standard. A miracle by Orthodox standard is when you know for sure it was miracle and this can happen only if God Himself makes you aware of it. In other words, a miracle is truly a meeting with God, He speaks to you and you know it for sure.

Let me ask you, when you saw those miracles, did God literally speak to you? Did He let you know that they were miracles? No, He didn't. Otherwise, you wouldn't ask questions here. You'd already be convinced.  Smiley But you are still seeking. Well, I believe that in order to find that conviction you have to look into The Orthodox Church.
Logged

mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2012, 11:54:21 AM »

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother ofmy church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... : Huh

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Quote
How can I know all these healings are not true miracles? How can I identify and test them?

There should be some CLEAR methods to test and identify which miracles are true and from not, which are not.

There is:

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2012, 12:12:15 PM »

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother if my church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... : Huh

I agree that it can be confusing. Still, it's a matter of faith. If one believes that The Orthodox Church is the True Church, then it makes no sense for miracles to occur elsewhere. I think our definition of miracles can make a big difference. Many great things do happen in our lives that we can say are miracles, but they are not by the Orthodox standard. A miracle by Orthodox standard is when you know for sure it was miracle and this can happen only if God Himself makes you aware of it. In other words, a miracle is truly a meeting with God, He speaks to you and you know it for sure.

Let me ask you, when you saw those miracles, did God literally speak to you? Did He let you know that they were miracles? No, He didn't. Otherwise, you wouldn't ask questions here. You'd already be convinced.  Smiley But you are still seeking. Well, I believe that in order to find that conviction you have to look into The Orthodox Church.

Protestant Christian like to say that we need to have "FAITH" and believe in the miracle that God manifested for us.

If there is an icon weeping before me, how can I know that this miracle is truly a meeting with God and He speaks to me? (Except "FAITH" which Protestant always mentions )
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 12:14:08 PM by walter1234 » Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,935


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2012, 12:24:01 PM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not  in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.
What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 12:29:10 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2012, 01:44:54 PM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not  in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.
What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

There is no "we" business. True, I can't speak for everybody on this forum.
There is no Salvation outside The Church. God does not work miracles outside The Church. As I have established before in this thread, miracles are not just the great things that happen to us, but revelations of God's Power. When Orthodoxy receives a miracle, God makes Himself known, and doesn't just act transparently or in a hidden manner.
Logged

Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2012, 02:01:01 PM »

I am still a bit confuse. Because I really heard many healing and deliverance miracles from Protestant , I also heard some testimonies from the brother ofmy church, and even saw some healing mircales in the conference... : Huh

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Quote
How can I know all these healings are not true miracles? How can I identify and test them?

There should be some CLEAR methods to test and identify which miracles are true and from not, which are not.

There is:

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

exactly.. the bible warns about fake christs and false prophets that will perform wonders.. in Judaism miracles are not a sign(ethanol?) of genuineness..
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,935


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2012, 03:47:47 PM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not  in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.
What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

There is no "we" business. True, I can't speak for everybody on this forum.
There is no Salvation outside The Church. God does not work miracles outside The Church. As I have established before in this thread, miracles are not just the great things that happen to us, but revelations of God's Power.
YOU have not established anything; you have merely spoken your opinion. The question we should be asking is: Who are you?

When Orthodoxy receives a miracle, God makes Himself known, and doesn't just act transparently or in a hidden manner.
How do you know this for certain?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 03:50:09 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2012, 04:27:55 AM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not  in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.
What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

There is no "we" business. True, I can't speak for everybody on this forum.
There is no Salvation outside The Church. God does not work miracles outside The Church. As I have established before in this thread, miracles are not just the great things that happen to us, but revelations of God's Power. When Orthodoxy receives a miracle, God makes Himself known, and doesn't just act transparently or in a hidden manner.
Does God only listen the prayers of Orthodox Christians?

If an atheist prays to God in his suffer and hard time and asks God to help him , would GOd ignore his prayers?

Also,if a Protestant or Catholic Christian gets a sick , then he prays and asks God to heal him, would God ignore his prayers?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 04:33:53 AM by walter1234 » Logged
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2012, 05:02:38 AM »

If an atheist prays to God

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2012, 05:09:56 AM »

But Many Christians in Protestant and Catholic Church also get the healing grace from God. Why are there still many healing grace/miracle outside Orthodox Church?

The Orthodox Church does not believe miracles occur outside The Church. God heals people everywhere, but not  in the same miraculous way as in The Orthodox Church. Also, we believe Catholic miracles, for example, are fake or false.
What's this "we" business? You speak only for yourself when you assert your belief that miracles do not occur outside the Orthodox Church. We are bound to the Church, but the Holy Trinity is not, so how dare you presume to limit where the Holy Spirit will or will not work?

There is no "we" business. True, I can't speak for everybody on this forum.
There is no Salvation outside The Church. God does not work miracles outside The Church. As I have established before in this thread, miracles are not just the great things that happen to us, but revelations of God's Power. When Orthodoxy receives a miracle, God makes Himself known, and doesn't just act transparently or in a hidden manner.

I agree with Peter. I think you're being far too black and white here and that you're potentially misleading Walter (unintentionally I'm sure) as a result. We'd only accept miracles as genuine if they happened within Orthodoxy (in much the same way as we don't accept post-Schism RC saints, for instance) but we certainly wouldn't reject the possibility of God working miracles outside the Orthodox Church. We just stick to what we know is from God and refrain from passing judgement either way on the rest.

James
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 05:10:29 AM by jmbejdl » Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2012, 06:24:49 AM »

I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.

Logged

orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,485



« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2012, 06:36:20 AM »

If an atheist prays to God

If wishes were horses

Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,485



« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2012, 06:49:44 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2012, 08:19:41 AM »

I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.



I never said that we acknowledged miracles outside the Church. I said that we didn't pass judgement either way. I am not disagreeing with your view of Orthodox miracles at all and I'm certainly not saying that we should recognise miracles outside the Church. I am only disagreeing with your assertion that God cannot create miracles outside the Church. God can do as God wills. And if God willed and created a miracle amongst some heterodox group that brought them to the Truth (i.e. to Orthodoxy), are you seriously saying we couldn't recognise that? Your black and white assertion that miracles cannot happen outside the Church (which is distinctly different from saying that the Church does not recognise miracles that happen outside Her) would seem to suggest that we could not.

As for your catechism, by all means post it (or PM me with quotes from it) in Romanian. You don't need to translate it for me (in fact maybe I could translate it for you - second language to native language translations being far easier than the reverse). I'd be very surprised if it differed from what I've been taught by seeking to circumscribe God, however.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2012, 08:33:45 AM »


I never said that we acknowledged miracles outside the Church. I said that we didn't pass judgement either way. I am not disagreeing with your view of Orthodox miracles at all and I'm certainly not saying that we should recognise miracles outside the Church. I am only disagreeing with your assertion that God cannot create miracles outside the Church. God can do as God wills. And if God willed and created a miracle amongst some heterodox group that brought them to the Truth (i.e. to Orthodoxy), are you seriously saying we couldn't recognise that? Your black and white assertion that miracles cannot happen outside the Church (which is distinctly different from saying that the Church does not recognise miracles that happen outside Her) would seem to suggest that we could not.

As for your catechism, by all means post it (or PM me with quotes from it) in Romanian. You don't need to translate it for me (in fact maybe I could translate it for you - second language to native language translations being far easier than the reverse). I'd be very surprised if it differed from what I've been taught by seeking to circumscribe God, however.

James


I agree with you that God can indeed perform miracles outside The Church in order to bring people to The Truth. I'd be wrong to say otherwise. My only mention is then what we consider to be a true miracle. To find out what a true miracle is, then we have to look into what Orthodoxy considers to be a miracle. I think that, many times, people are tempted to consider miracles many things that are not, even though they may be very extraordinary things guided by God in a hidden/covert manner (yet, they do not carry with them that message that it was indeed God's hand, that it was purely transcendent, and calls people to repentance and truth).

Here is that Romanian catechism article. I don't need it translated myself as I am a native Romanian speaker.
http://catehism.ortodoxiatinerilor.ro/?p=65

To give an example: it's one thing to be ill, take a medicine and be healed even though the doctors said you had no chances, and another thing to be ill, not take a med, but say have Virgin Mary show up and heal you and tell you to sin no more. Both can be perceived as miracles, but they are not. Only the second version gives you the certainty that it was God who calls you to repentance.  


« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 08:43:18 AM by IoanC » Logged

jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2012, 08:47:07 AM »

I agree with you that God can indeed perform miracles outside The Church in order to bring people to The Truth. I'd be wrong to say otherwise. My only mention is then what we consider to be a true miracle. To find out what a true miracle is, then we have to look into what Orthodoxy considers to be a miracle. I think that, many times, people are tempted to consider miracles many things that are not, even though they may be very extraordinary things guided by God in a hidden/covert manner (yet, they do not carry with them that message that it was indeed God's hand, that it was purely transcendent, and calls people to repentance and truth).

Then we don't actually disagree (which is what I suspected all along) but that is a far cry from some of your earlier posts which were, as I said, far too black and white and could have misled Walter.

Quote
Here is that Romanian catechism article. I don't need it translated myself as I am a native Romanian speaker.
http://catehism.ortodoxiatinerilor.ro/?p=65
You misunderstood. My offer was to translate it into English, which is my native language. It's easier to translate from a second language into your native tongue than the reverse.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2012, 09:05:42 AM »

I agree with you that God can indeed perform miracles outside The Church in order to bring people to The Truth. I'd be wrong to say otherwise. My only mention is then what we consider to be a true miracle. To find out what a true miracle is, then we have to look into what Orthodoxy considers to be a miracle. I think that, many times, people are tempted to consider miracles many things that are not, even though they may be very extraordinary things guided by God in a hidden/covert manner (yet, they do not carry with them that message that it was indeed God's hand, that it was purely transcendent, and calls people to repentance and truth).

Then we don't actually disagree (which is what I suspected all along) but that is a far cry from some of your earlier posts which were, as I said, far too black and white and could have misled Walter.

Quote
Here is that Romanian catechism article. I don't need it translated myself as I am a native Romanian speaker.
http://catehism.ortodoxiatinerilor.ro/?p=65
You misunderstood. My offer was to translate it into English, which is my native language. It's easier to translate from a second language into your native tongue than the reverse.

James

I see. Well, I think that previously I was trying to communicate the importance of Orthodoxy to walter more than getting into the details of miracles.

What I meant was that I do understand that article. I could technically translate it into English, but I don't have the time.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 09:06:13 AM by IoanC » Logged

PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,935


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2012, 02:34:45 PM »

I do not agree.
Thank you for taking personal responsibility for your opinions for once. I certainly don't want to be associated with your dogmatic proclamations.

Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.
You talk only about Orthodox miracles here. I don't contest the faith that miracles do occur in the Orthodox Church, and I'm sure the Church has stringent rules guiding how we discern a true miracle from the false. But nothing you said in the above quote supports your assertion that miracles occur only within the Orthodox Church.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2012, 02:38:18 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2012, 01:14:37 AM »

I do not agree.
Thank you for taking personal responsibility for your opinions for once. I certainly don't want to be associated with your dogmatic proclamations.

Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.
You talk only about Orthodox miracles here. I don't contest the faith that miracles do occur in the Orthodox Church, and I'm sure the Church has stringent rules guiding how we discern a true miracle from the false. But nothing you said in the above quote supports your assertion that miracles occur only within the Orthodox Church.

Peter, would it be fair to say that nothing you say makes sense to me and that your "authority" means nothing? Where is your own logic for disproving what I say. You only seem offended by what I say, but it does not follow what your arguments are. You only seem bothered when people talk seriously about Orthodoxy, about fear of God, about holiness; sorry, but this attitude is known to me and I believe it is a sin. Let's just say that us two confess Orthodoxy differently. I don't feel threatened by your comments with which I generally disagree thoroughly as I find they are diluting and relaxing the nature of Orthodoxy. I suggest you don't feel threatened by my comments also, as I am only speaking as you do and all others do. I don't know why you can handle what you and others say, and get stuck in my comments. You are really just targeting me.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 01:15:43 AM by IoanC » Logged

Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2012, 05:49:18 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
LBK
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 10,529


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2012, 07:41:12 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

I well remember a bottle of holy water from my childhood. This bottle was on a shelf, opposite a large window which faced due east. It was made of plain transparent glass, not green or brown, so it couldn't reduce the effects of sunlight on it. I grew up, I moved out, and the bottle remained in its place on the shelf at my parents' house. The bottle remained there, with no trace of deterioration or contamination of the contents, until about four or five years ago, when the last of the holy water was used. That holy water lasted, unsullied, for at least 35 years.
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,485



« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2012, 07:43:50 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

Pasadi shows again he is singular among his countrymen.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
mike
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,467


WWW
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2012, 07:49:07 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.

C2H5OH
« Last Edit: November 24, 2012, 07:49:26 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

Byzantinism
no longer posting here
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,485



« Reply #45 on: November 24, 2012, 07:51:25 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.

C2H5OH

It certainly didn't do a good job of preserving my brain.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #46 on: November 24, 2012, 08:50:27 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

Pasadi shows again he is singular among his countrymen.

who is pasadi?
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
Azul
Moderated
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Român Ortodox
Jurisdiction: Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 988



« Reply #47 on: November 24, 2012, 08:51:27 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.

C2H5OH

the kind of "water" you like , eh ? Smiley
Logged

Every formula of every religion has in this age of reason, to submit to the acid test of reason and universal assent.
Mahatma Gandhi
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #48 on: November 24, 2012, 09:18:35 AM »

I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.



1.What is the canonical rules for the recognizing miracles and recognizing Saints?

2. In Orthodoxy, who is responsible to determine/recognize whether the miracles is from God or not? Who is responsible to determine/recognize which one is the saints, which one is not?  Is this the work of the Bishops?
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,485



« Reply #49 on: November 24, 2012, 09:41:20 AM »

I think it was empirically proven some time ago around here about the validity of Orthodox miracles and the "miracles" of other "churches":

Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.

No one is missed more.

A colleague(chemist) of mine said that the water can be preserved through a chemical substance.So this can easily be a scam.

Pasadi shows again he is singular among his countrymen.

who is pasadi?

Indeed.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #50 on: November 24, 2012, 10:36:30 AM »

I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.



1.What is the canonical rules for the recognizing miracles and recognizing Saints?

2. In Orthodoxy, who is responsible to determine/recognize whether the miracles is from God or not? Who is responsible to determine/recognize which one is the saints, which one is not?  Is this the work of the Bishops?

I cannot provide all the rules, but they are many and strict. You could search yourself, and it's something I'd love to encourage you to do: a great way to learn about Orthodoxy is to read Saints, Catechisms, literature, etc.

Miracles are officially recognized by clergy, but they can be observed by anybody. Like I said, Orthodoxy considers miracles only those that are clearly in accord with The Gospel and Tradition, with God's Holiness and Power, that bring people to repentance and The Truth of the Orthodox Faith. Even if it was someone raising from the dead, if it didn't meet those requirements, it would still not be considered a miracle.
Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2012, 03:06:21 AM »

I do not agree. Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.



1.What is the canonical rules for the recognizing miracles and recognizing Saints?

2. In Orthodoxy, who is responsible to determine/recognize whether the miracles is from God or not? Who is responsible to determine/recognize which one is the saints, which one is not?  Is this the work of the Bishops?

I cannot provide all the rules, but they are many and strict. You could search yourself, and it's something I'd love to encourage you to do: a great way to learn about Orthodoxy is to read Saints, Catechisms, literature, etc.

Miracles are officially recognized by clergy, but they can be observed by anybody. Like I said, Orthodoxy considers miracles only those that are clearly in accord with The Gospel and Tradition, with God's Holiness and Power, that bring people to repentance and The Truth of the Orthodox Faith. Even if it was someone raising from the dead, if it didn't meet those requirements, it would still not be considered a miracle.

Quote
Matthew chapter 11
20.Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
 
21.Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
 
22.But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
 
23.And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
 
24.But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus also perform many miracles and mighty works in Chorzin and Bethsaida. But His miracles could not bring people to repetence. Are these miracles that performed Jesus still called "miracles"?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 03:20:11 AM by walter1234 » Logged
IoanC
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,378



WWW
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2012, 06:03:56 AM »

Yes, of course they are. It is up to people to repent. God allows us our freedom, and sometimes people do reject God. Many Martyr Saints of The Church were tortured and killed several times by certain earthly rulers, but God miraculously put them back together, as if they had not been touched at all -- still, those rulers did not repent. It's not they did not believe, since those miracles were undeniable, but they did not want to repent.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2012, 06:04:36 AM by IoanC » Logged

walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 913


« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2012, 07:00:52 AM »


Ok. It is simple. On one bottle you put normal water. On one bottle you put Holy water from eastern orthodox Church. On one bottle you put Holy water from Roman Catholic Church. On one bottle you put nothing from protestant Church.

Then you wait 40 days. Then you try drinking and smelling and check to see if you see a difference. If you do that, discharging of Holy Water has to be done properly. I hope some guys exit uncommon sense denial process. I mean you can go and see yearly miracles with your eyes.


What is Holy water?  Why is holy water so important?

Who created this experiment? What is the validity of  this experiment?
Logged
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,935


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #54 on: November 27, 2012, 11:29:34 AM »

I do not agree.
Thank you for taking personal responsibility for your opinions for once. I certainly don't want to be associated with your dogmatic proclamations.

Orthodox miracles are distinct from any other miracles. There are canonical rules for recognizing miracles just about as strict as for recognizing Saints (holiness). I would encourage caution in calling anything spectacular a miracle. Orthodox miracles are not means to simply impress people, nor to offer them something physical (even if they were resurrected from the dead), nor to offer "proof" of God. Orthodox miracles are meant to bring people to repentance, to be in accord with The Orthodox Faith, to prove God's Power and Holiness, to be recognized only within The Church, by the rules of The Church. I only have my Romanian catechism and I can't translate it all. Like I said, the rules are many and very strict. Orthodox miracles have to be in accord with The Gospel and with Holy Tradition. They have to be performed by God or by recognized Saints, or by holy people, and most importantly bring people to The Truth.
You talk only about Orthodox miracles here. I don't contest the faith that miracles do occur in the Orthodox Church, and I'm sure the Church has stringent rules guiding how we discern a true miracle from the false. But nothing you said in the above quote supports your assertion that miracles occur only within the Orthodox Church.

Peter, would it be fair to say that nothing you say makes sense to me and that your "authority" means nothing? Where is your own logic for disproving what I say.
You do realize that there's a difference between saying, "You're wrong," on the one hand, and saying "Your argument doesn't support your point," on the other?

You only seem offended by what I say,
I don't like people making unwarranted dogmatic statements.

but it does not follow what your arguments are. You only seem bothered when people talk seriously about Orthodoxy, about fear of God, about holiness; sorry, but this attitude is known to me and I believe it is a sin.
But you only think you know my heart. It's one thing to talk seriously about Orthodoxy, about the fear of God, and about holiness. It's another thing altogether to make such dogmatic statements as, "Secular music can communicate only carnal feelings and desires," or, "Miracles occur only within the Orthodox Church". One can talk seriously about Orthodoxy and the fear of God without elevating one's own opinions to the level of dogma.

Let's just say that us two confess Orthodoxy differently. I don't feel threatened by your comments with which I generally disagree thoroughly as I find they are diluting and relaxing the nature of Orthodoxy. I suggest you don't feel threatened by my comments also, as I am only speaking as you do and all others do. I don't know why you can handle what you and others say, and get stuck in my comments. You are really just targeting me.
No, I target undue dogmatism wherever I see it.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1 2 All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.195 seconds with 83 queries.