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Author Topic: Argument of sola scriptural  (Read 696 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: November 10, 2012, 07:14:24 AM »

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1.Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
 
2.And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
 
3.And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
 
4.But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5.Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
 
6.And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
 
7.Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
 
8.Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
 
9.And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
 
10.Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
 
11.Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
 


Some Protestant Christians argue that sola scriptural is a correct doctrine. " Tradition is less important than Scripture, or even not important" is a right teaching. THeir arguments are as follow:

In Matthew,When Jesus tempered by evil. Jesus used the words in Scriptures to defeat the devi for three times, but not words in Traditions or anything else. Thus, Traditions is less important or even not important.Scripture is more significant than anything else, include traditions in church.Do you have any comment on this argument
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 07:15:56 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 07:21:13 AM »

St. Paul himself quoted Jewish tradition:

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1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Only in Jewish tradition there was a rock that followed Israel in the desert, it is nowhere mentioned in Exodus.
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Ashman618
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 07:53:54 AM »

I don't technically we this as Jesus quoting scripture since the scriptures are His preincarnate words anyway. so I see this more as "like I said before, man shall not live on bread alone" and again "I already said you shall not tempt the Lord your God"...... I guess ironically enough this one, cus He is Lord and God, is kinda like Christ saying to Satan  "dude don't tempt me, it wont work for you"
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walter1234
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 09:41:13 AM »

St. Paul himself quoted Jewish tradition:

Quote
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Only in Jewish tradition there was a rock that followed Israel in the desert, it is nowhere mentioned in Exodus.


The author of Book of Judas also use two Jews traditions from  Book of Enoch and Assumpton of Moses, but Book of Enoch and Assumption of Moses still identify as Pseudepigraphos.  The Church still do not think that these two Pseudepigraphos are the Word of God.

Thus,Some  We cannot say that Tradition is not as important as Scriptures some authors use the Jews tradition to finish the Scriptures
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 09:45:18 AM by walter1234 » Logged
Cyrillic
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 09:43:53 AM »

St. Paul himself quoted Jewish tradition:

Quote
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Only in Jewish tradition there was a rock that followed Israel in the desert, it is nowhere mentioned in Exodus.


The author of Book of Judas also use two Jews traditions from  Book of Enoch and Assumpton of Moses, but Book of Enoch and Assumption of Moses still identify as Pseudepigraphos.  The Church still do not think that these two Pseudepigraphos are the Word of God.

Thus,Some still argue that Jewish traditions that put in bible cannot necessarily mean Tradition is as important as Scripture.

It proves that there is truth for the faith outside of the canon of Scripture.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 09:44:10 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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walter1234
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 09:54:42 AM »

St. Paul himself quoted Jewish tradition:

Quote
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Only in Jewish tradition there was a rock that followed Israel in the desert, it is nowhere mentioned in Exodus.


The author of Book of Judas also use two Jews traditions from  Book of Enoch and Assumpton of Moses, but Book of Enoch and Assumption of Moses still identify as Pseudepigraphos.  The Church still do not think that these two Pseudepigraphos are the Word of God.

Thus,Some still argue that Jewish traditions that put in bible cannot necessarily mean Tradition is as important as Scripture.

It proves that there is truth for the faith outside of the canon of Scripture.

That means the stories that  the author of Book of Judas uses are come from Pseudepigraphos. These stories is not true, or even may not exist. But there is still truth for the faith there?
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 09:56:34 AM »

St. Paul himself quoted Jewish tradition:

Quote
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Only in Jewish tradition there was a rock that followed Israel in the desert, it is nowhere mentioned in Exodus.


The author of Book of Judas also use two Jews traditions from  Book of Enoch and Assumpton of Moses, but Book of Enoch and Assumption of Moses still identify as Pseudepigraphos.  The Church still do not think that these two Pseudepigraphos are the Word of God.

Thus,Some still argue that Jewish traditions that put in bible cannot necessarily mean Tradition is as important as Scripture.

It proves that there is truth for the faith outside of the canon of Scripture.

That means the stories that  the author of Book of Judas uses are come from Pseudepigraphos. [...] But there is still truth for the faith there?

Yes. The Dormition of the Theotokos is in the Pseudoevangelion of James, for example.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 10:09:24 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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walter1234
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 10:16:13 AM »

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Act 17:28-29
28. for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also His (God's) offspring.’ 29. Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising.

Paul used the poets from Greek religions when he preach the Gospel to Greek .

THe truth of faith can even be found in the poets of other religions which worship false God?  Huh
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 10:39:18 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 10:45:20 AM »

 Believe it or not, truth can be found even on inscriptions on pagan altars (Acts 17:23).
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 10:47:30 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 11:33:34 AM »

The differance is the Chruch is the full truth, everything else is a partial truth which in my opinion is actually a lie....... Ya know as in "surely you won't die"
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walter1234
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2012, 12:42:14 PM »

St. Paul himself quoted Jewish tradition:

Quote
1 Corinthians 10

10 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Only in Jewish tradition there was a rock that followed Israel in the desert, it is nowhere mentioned in Exodus.


The author of Book of Judas also use two Jews traditions from  Book of Enoch and Assumpton of Moses, but Book of Enoch and Assumption of Moses still identify as Pseudepigraphos.  The Church still do not think that these two Pseudepigraphos are the Word of God.

Thus,Some still argue that Jewish traditions that put in bible cannot necessarily mean Tradition is as important as Scripture.

It proves that there is truth for the faith outside of the canon of Scripture.

That means the stories that  the author of Book of Judas uses are come from Pseudepigraphos. [...] But there is still truth for the faith there?

Yes. The Dormition of the Theotokos is in the Pseudoevangelion of James, for example.

The practice of Intercession of the dead saints is come from Apocrypha,e.g 2 Maccabees 15:11-17,Baruch 3:4 ?
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2012, 01:03:36 PM »


The practice of Intercession of the dead saints is come from Apocrypha,e.g 2 Maccabees 15:11-17,Baruch 3:4 ?

Yes, and from Apostolic Tradition.
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walter1234
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2012, 01:10:17 PM »

How about icons? When did Orthodox church start to use the icons to worship? Where do Orthodox Church get this tradition?
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 01:10:37 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2012, 01:40:42 AM »

And that means scripture is the only or sole authority how perhaps? Lets imagine the apostles believed passionately sola scriptura. They exceeded what was their scripture in the day by introducing doctrines, practices and beliefs which are not to be specifically found within scripture. But lets suppose the apostles were then a special case that they had the ability to be auhtorities themselves, that they knew once they were gone there would be the scripture and everything would fall under it okay. So why then did the apostles not leave us a canon? An endless source of debate between different Christians since our canons all differ, the early church was just as confused on this point as well.

How do we know we are to specifically gather on sunday? I mean why not any other day? How do we know how a service ought to be run? Should we take from the jewish worship texts and use their mode as Jesus certaintly would have? Should we just read the bible? We know the bible tells to gather but what do we do when we gather?

Sola scriptura tries to make sense of how rome introduced many innovations, neglecting the fact that the scripture tiself as a canon as something to be believed was not established by it being the highest authority and listing its own texts, but by apostolic tradition which is not in the bible itself. And that says something that the basis on which the bible is established, when it is neglected the books of the bible become just as impotent as the gnostic texts.
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2012, 05:03:27 PM »

How about icons? When did Orthodox church start to use the icons to worship? Where do Orthodox Church get this tradition?

The Incarnation. Since God became circumscribed and visible, He can be depicted.
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