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JamesR
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« on: November 10, 2012, 01:27:18 AM » |
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According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?
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You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something. James, you have problemz. |
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Shiny
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 01:36:41 AM » |
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”
– St. Ambrose of Milan
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 01:54:48 AM » |
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Christians and personhood aren't judged based on their DNA.
We commune the mentally disabled, we commune those of different cultures.
I can't imagine withholding communion because they aren't anatomically modern humans.
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 01:54:57 AM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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Shiny
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 02:16:01 AM » |
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Christians and personhood aren't judged based on their DNA.
We commune the mentally disabled, we commune those of different cultures.
I can't imagine withholding communion because they aren't anatomically modern humans.
Baptizing extra-terrestials shouldn't pose a problem either, right? |
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”
– St. Ambrose of Milan
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 02:19:21 AM » |
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Christians and personhood aren't judged based on their DNA.
We commune the mentally disabled, we commune those of different cultures.
I can't imagine withholding communion because they aren't anatomically modern humans.
Baptizing extra-terrestials shouldn't pose a problem either, right? Not if they're human in the Christian sense. |
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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Jetavan
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 08:38:55 AM » |
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Christ died for all, not just for humans.
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 09:36:45 AM » |
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What if the aliens are Orthodox already?
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"My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me"
-Benjamin Disraeli
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Αριστοκλής
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 09:53:47 AM » |
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The owner of this forum and website has in other places on the Internet stated that OC.net is or has become only a forum for intellectual discussions about Orthodoxy, different from its original mission. This topic exactly displays that he is correct.
(Forum rules preclude my linking to his statement, but It's out there.)
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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
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Cyrillic
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 10:00:15 AM » |
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The owner of this forum and website has in other places on the Internet stated that OC.net is or has become only a forum for intellectual discussions about Orthodoxy, different from its original mission. This topic exactly displays that he is correct.
(Forum rules preclude my linking to his statement, but It's out there.)
What was the original mission? |
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"My idea of an agreeable person is a person who agrees with me"
-Benjamin Disraeli
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celticfan1888
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 10:18:34 AM » |
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Christians and personhood aren't judged based on their DNA.
We commune the mentally disabled, we commune those of different cultures.
I can't imagine withholding communion because they aren't anatomically modern humans.
Baptizing extra-terrestials shouldn't pose a problem either, right? You are overly liberal on some issues, and unnecessarily "conservative" on others. Achronos, you are unique.  |
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Forgive my sins.
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2012, 05:30:55 PM » |
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If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 05:31:21 PM by Shanghaiski »
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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OrthoNoob
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2012, 05:40:29 PM » |
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If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.
And the harm in these discussions is... |
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William
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2012, 05:55:27 PM » |
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The owner of this forum and website has in other places on the Internet stated that OC.net is or has become only a forum for intellectual discussions about Orthodoxy, different from its original mission. This topic exactly displays that he is correct.
(Forum rules preclude my linking to his statement, but It's out there.)
It ranks up with the "Muslims are Christians" meme on the list of weird things the forum likes to discuss. |
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Apart from moral conduct, all that man thinks himself able to do in order to become acceptable to God is mere superstition and religious folly. - Immanuel Kant
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choy
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2012, 07:07:00 PM » |
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According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?
They have been extinct by the incarnation. How else could they commune? |
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2012, 07:25:20 PM » |
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If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.
And the harm in these discussions is... Idle chatter leads to hell. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2012, 07:32:30 PM » |
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Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune? No. Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no. Why? Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man. You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted. If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures. Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc. So, no. Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God. Plus, there was no church at that time. There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up. Make sense? It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey. |
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 07:38:24 PM by Kerdy »
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vamrat
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2012, 07:35:48 PM » |
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Nowadays? I don't see why not. They are considered to be Homo Sapiens (Neanderthalensis). Anatomical differences have never stopped the Church from bringing people into Christ's fold.
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Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2012, 07:45:46 PM » |
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I suppose the real question shouldn’t be hypothetical, but get right to the crux of the matter.
Can our evolutionary cousins be accepted into the Church and be in communion? After all, there is a movement in Europe to provide them personhood, which would provide them all the benefits of humanity, and if legally a person, why not a sentient being able to vote, drive, have a paid job and ultimately, commune.
If we, as Orthodox Christians who believe in the evolutionary theory, do not support our ape cousins accepting communion and attending confession, are we not hypocrites of the greatest degree? How have we, since the dawn of civilization, ignored these poor wretched relatives and in turn acted in the same manner as the Jews did with the Samaritans? Shameful is what it is. Let’s get our cousins into the fold. There are billions of them out their just waiting to be accepted.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2012, 07:48:16 PM » |
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They are considered to be Homo Sapiens (Neanderthalensis).
Same Genus, but those are two different species. |
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2012, 08:18:45 PM » |
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Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune? No. Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no. Why? Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man. You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted. If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures. Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc. So, no. Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God. Plus, there was no church at that time. There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up. Make sense? It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey. I guess the mentally retarded and the severely autistic also can't commune... |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Kerdy
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 08:32:01 PM » |
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Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune? No. Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no. Why? Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man. You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted. If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures. Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc. So, no. Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God. Plus, there was no church at that time. There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up. Make sense? It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey. I guess the mentally retarded and the severely autistic also can't commune... You are free to guess at anything your heart desires. |
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Sinful Hypocrite
Everyday I am critical of others. Every day I make similar mistakes. Every day I am a hypocrite.
OC.net guru
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Jurisdiction: "The Orthodox Church" by Bishop Kallistos Ware: "We know where the Church is but we cannot be sure where it is not; and so we must refrain from passing judgment on non-Orthodox Christians."
Posts: 1,935
Great googly moogly!
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2012, 08:45:25 PM » |
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  OR COMMUNE |
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« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 08:48:51 PM by Sinful Hypocrite »
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The Lord gathers his sheep, I fear I am a goat. Lord have mercy.
"A Christian is someone who follows and worships a perfectly good God who revealed his true face through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth.“
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OrthoNoob
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 09:26:56 PM » |
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If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.
And the harm in these discussions is... Idle chatter leads to hell. Wouldn't movies, TV, and fictional books all be more idle than this? |
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Punch
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2012, 10:56:53 PM » |
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I commune, so I guess that settles it. Neanderthals do commune.
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I would be happy to agree with you, but then both of us would be wrong.
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Wyatt
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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 11:37:18 PM » |
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Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune? No. Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no. Why? Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man. You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted. If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures. Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc. So, no. Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God. Plus, there was no church at that time. There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up. Make sense? It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey. I guess the mentally retarded and the severely autistic also can't commune... It's a little offensive that you are comparing people with mental disabilities to neaderthals. |
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2012, 11:46:12 PM » |
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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!  Wait, we anachronistic Orthodox dinosaurs weren't already Neanderthals? stay blessed, habte selassie |
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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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Jetavan
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2012, 12:11:11 AM » |
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....
It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
Adam and Eve could have been Homo hablis for all we know. |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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yeshuaisiam
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2012, 12:50:46 AM » |
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James, I don't think that you should trouble your mind with such hypothetics. There are many other things to be confused about.
I don't even recognize the Science behind what you are asking. Despite what somebody dug up, there are many confusing issues and controversy about these "cave men" and their existence.
There are more important fish to fry imho.
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TheMathematician
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2012, 12:52:24 AM » |
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According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?
We don't, because humans are animals. The question would be, what is the difference between a human animal and a non human animal. |
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2012, 01:10:37 AM » |
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Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
We don't, because humans are animals. The question would be, what is the difference between a human animal and a non human animal.
 So Cat can takez Communion  stay blessed, habte selassie |
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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
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age234
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2012, 01:16:35 AM » |
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If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.
And the harm in these discussions is... Idle chatter leads to hell. Wouldn't movies, TV, and fictional books all be more idle than this? No, because you can learn practical and applicable stuff from them, even secular entertainment. This is the very definition of idle talk. It is completely hypothetical, as there are no other species of Homo sapiens in existence, and won't be for an excruciatingly long amount of of time, if ever. There is no reason to consider it because it's impossible for all intents and purposes. It would be more productive to ask if we can commune the rocks on the moon, because at least they presently exist. |
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 01:20:07 AM by age234 »
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2012, 01:26:15 AM » |
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Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.
Neanderthals were smart enough to make complex tools, bury their dead, and use language. So... Also, they did not precede Homo Sapiens. They are a distinct line. |
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 01:26:50 AM by NicholasMyra »
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2012, 02:24:02 AM » |
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....
It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
Adam and Eve could have been Homo hablis for all we know. That's what I am saying. They could have been something not Homo at all. |
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PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
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Hypatos
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Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 33,501
Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2012, 02:35:45 AM » |
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What if pigs could fly? Would they still be pork?
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Jetavan
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2012, 02:53:17 AM » |
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A non-sapiens species of Homo existed as recently as about 15,000 years ago ( Homo floresiensis), so who knows -- maybe we'll find other non- sapiens that existed 10, 5, even 2,000 years ago. |
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 02:53:38 AM by Jetavan »
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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NicholasMyra
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2012, 03:24:57 AM » |
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It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
We're not talking about monkeys. |
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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Shiny
Site Supporter
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Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267
Paint It Red
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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2012, 03:28:55 AM » |
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It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
We're not talking about monkeys.  |
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”
– St. Ambrose of Milan
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OrthoNoob
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2012, 03:30:28 AM » |
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If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.
And the harm in these discussions is... Idle chatter leads to hell. Wouldn't movies, TV, and fictional books all be more idle than this? No, because you can learn practical and applicable stuff from them, even secular entertainment. If you think nothing is to be learned from this conversation, I submit that you need to look harder. This is the very definition of idle talk. It is completely hypothetical, as there are no other species of Homo sapiens in existence, and won't be for an excruciatingly long amount of of time, if ever. There is no reason to consider it because it's impossible for all intents and purposes. Maybe, maybe not. But hypotheticals, contrary to popular anti-intellectual opinion, are quite useful as tools for exploring our understanding of concepts. What, in theological terms, is a human being? That is the question underlying this question, and it strikes me as a rather important one. It would be more productive to ask if we can commune the rocks on the moon, because at least they presently exist.
It would also be trivially answered and provide no further insight into anthropology (as a subdiscipline of theology, not as the scientific study of human beings). |
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Ansgar
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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2012, 05:31:14 AM » |
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I once watched a documentary that said that one of the things that seperates us from neanderthals is that they did not have any imagination and were therefore unable to comprehend anything outside the physical reality which they could observe.
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Do not be cast down over the struggle - the Lord loves a brave warrior. The Lord loves the soul that is valiant.
-St Silouan the athonite
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JamesRottnek
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2012, 07:17:34 AM » |
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Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune? No. Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no. Why? Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man. You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted. If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures. Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc. So, no. Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God. Plus, there was no church at that time. There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up. Make sense? It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey. I guess the mentally retarded and the severely autistic also can't commune... It's a little offensive that you are comparing people with mental disabilities to neaderthals. Well, let me ask you this: can the severely mentally ill and severely autistic "understand eternal existence," (and, honestly, I don't know I'd agree with Kerdy that this is something a homo sapien can do), "God from godlessness," and "right from wrong?" To Kerdy, that is what makes someone human, which was a suggestion that those homo sapiens who cannot do those things (which would also apply to all infants) are best classes as Neanderthals instead of humans. |
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I know a secret about a former Supreme Court Justice. Can you guess what it is?
The greatest tragedy in the world is when a cigarette ends.
American Spirits - the eco-friendly cigarette.
Preston Robert Kinney (September 8th, 1997-August 14, 2011
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Kerdy
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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2012, 07:52:35 AM » |
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Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.
Neanderthals were smart enough to make complex tools, bury their dead, and use language. So... Also, they did not precede Homo Sapiens. They are a distinct line. Dogs can learn how to open doors and close them. That means little. I never said one way or the other where they originated or whom they preceded. |
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 07:56:06 AM by Kerdy »
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Kerdy
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« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2012, 07:53:39 AM » |
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A non-sapiens species of Homo existed as recently as about 15,000 years ago ( Homo floresiensis), so who knows -- maybe we'll find other non- sapiens that existed 10, 5, even 2,000 years ago. But did they commune? |
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Kerdy
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« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2012, 07:54:10 AM » |
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It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were. Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
We're not talking about monkeys. Everything is talking about monkeys. |
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Αριστοκλής
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« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2012, 09:02:10 AM » |
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What a waste of bandwidth. Anyone know any Neanderthals being denied Communion?
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"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
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