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Author Topic: Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune?  (Read 2407 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: November 10, 2012, 01:27:18 AM »

According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2012, 01:36:41 AM »

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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2012, 01:54:48 AM »

Christians and personhood aren't judged based on their DNA.

We commune the mentally disabled, we commune those of different cultures.

I can't imagine withholding communion because they aren't anatomically modern humans.
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2012, 02:16:01 AM »

Christians and personhood aren't judged based on their DNA.

We commune the mentally disabled, we commune those of different cultures.

I can't imagine withholding communion because they aren't anatomically modern humans.
Baptizing extra-terrestials shouldn't pose a problem either, right?
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« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2012, 02:19:21 AM »

Christians and personhood aren't judged based on their DNA.

We commune the mentally disabled, we commune those of different cultures.

I can't imagine withholding communion because they aren't anatomically modern humans.
Baptizing extra-terrestials shouldn't pose a problem either, right?
Not if they're human in the Christian sense.
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« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2012, 08:38:55 AM »

Christ died for all, not just for humans.
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« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2012, 09:36:45 AM »

What if the aliens are Orthodox already?
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« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2012, 09:53:47 AM »

The owner of this forum and website has in other places on the Internet stated that OC.net is or has become only a forum for intellectual discussions about Orthodoxy, different from its original mission. This topic exactly displays that he is correct.

(Forum rules preclude my linking to his statement, but It's out there.)
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« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2012, 10:00:15 AM »

The owner of this forum and website has in other places on the Internet stated that OC.net is or has become only a forum for intellectual discussions about Orthodoxy, different from its original mission. This topic exactly displays that he is correct.

(Forum rules preclude my linking to his statement, but It's out there.)

What was the original mission?
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« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2012, 10:18:34 AM »

Christians and personhood aren't judged based on their DNA.

We commune the mentally disabled, we commune those of different cultures.

I can't imagine withholding communion because they aren't anatomically modern humans.
Baptizing extra-terrestials shouldn't pose a problem either, right?

You are overly liberal on some issues, and unnecessarily "conservative" on others. Achronos, you are unique. laugh
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« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2012, 10:24:09 AM »

Christ died for all, not just for humans.

Christ died for Greek people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfXIWYdL8dU
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« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2012, 05:30:55 PM »

If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.
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« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2012, 05:40:29 PM »

If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.

And the harm in these discussions is...
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« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2012, 05:55:27 PM »

The owner of this forum and website has in other places on the Internet stated that OC.net is or has become only a forum for intellectual discussions about Orthodoxy, different from its original mission. This topic exactly displays that he is correct.

(Forum rules preclude my linking to his statement, but It's out there.)

It ranks up with the "Muslims are Christians" meme on the list of weird things the forum likes to discuss.
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« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2012, 07:07:00 PM »

According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?

They have been extinct by the incarnation.  How else could they commune?
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« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2012, 07:25:20 PM »

If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.

And the harm in these discussions is...

Idle chatter leads to hell.
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« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2012, 07:32:30 PM »

Quote
Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune?


No.  Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no.  

Why?  Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man.  You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted.  If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures.  Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.  

So, no.  Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God.  Plus, there was no church at that time.  There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up.

Make sense?

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
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« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2012, 07:35:48 PM »

Nowadays?  I don't see why not.  They are considered to be Homo Sapiens (Neanderthalensis).  Anatomical differences have never stopped the Church from bringing people into Christ's fold. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2012, 07:45:46 PM »

I suppose the real question shouldn’t be hypothetical, but get right to the crux of the matter.

Can our evolutionary cousins be accepted into the Church and be in communion?  After all, there is a movement in Europe to provide them personhood, which would provide them all the benefits of humanity, and if legally a person, why not a sentient being able to vote, drive, have a paid job and ultimately, commune. 

If we, as Orthodox Christians who believe in the evolutionary theory, do not support our ape cousins accepting communion and attending confession, are we not hypocrites of the greatest degree?  How have we, since the dawn of civilization, ignored these poor wretched relatives and in turn acted in the same manner as the Jews did with the Samaritans?  Shameful is what it is.  Let’s get our cousins into the fold.  There are billions of them out their just waiting to be accepted.
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« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2012, 07:48:16 PM »

They are considered to be Homo Sapiens (Neanderthalensis).   

Same Genus, but those are two different species.
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« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2012, 08:18:45 PM »

Quote
Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune?


No.  Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no.  

Why?  Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man.  You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted.  If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures.  Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.  

So, no.  Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God.  Plus, there was no church at that time.  There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up.

Make sense?

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.

I guess the mentally retarded and the severely autistic also can't commune...
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« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2012, 08:32:01 PM »

Quote
Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune?


No.  Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no.  

Why?  Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man.  You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted.  If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures.  Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.  

So, no.  Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God.  Plus, there was no church at that time.  There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up.

Make sense?

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.

I guess the mentally retarded and the severely autistic also can't commune...

You are free to guess at anything your heart desires.
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« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2012, 08:45:25 PM »



OR COMMUNE
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« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2012, 09:26:56 PM »

If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.

And the harm in these discussions is...

Idle chatter leads to hell.

Wouldn't movies, TV, and fictional books all be more idle than this?
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« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2012, 10:56:53 PM »

I commune, so I guess that settles it.  Neanderthals do commune.
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« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2012, 11:37:18 PM »

Quote
Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune?


No.  Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no.  

Why?  Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man.  You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted.  If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures.  Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.  

So, no.  Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God.  Plus, there was no church at that time.  There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up.

Make sense?

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.

I guess the mentally retarded and the severely autistic also can't commune...
It's a little offensive that you are comparing people with mental disabilities to neaderthals.
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« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2012, 11:46:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Wait, we anachronistic Orthodox dinosaurs weren't already Neanderthals?  laugh

stay blessed,
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2012, 12:11:11 AM »

....
It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
Adam and Eve could have been Homo hablis for all we know.
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2012, 12:50:46 AM »

James, I don't think that you should trouble your mind with such hypothetics.   There are many other things to be confused about.

I don't even recognize the Science behind what you are asking.  Despite what somebody dug up, there are many confusing issues and controversy about these "cave men" and their existence.

There are more important fish to fry imho.
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« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2012, 12:52:24 AM »

According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?

We don't, because humans are animals. The question would be, what is the difference between a human animal and a non human animal.
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« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2012, 01:10:37 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



We don't, because humans are animals. The question would be, what is the difference between a human animal and a non human animal.



So Cat can takez Communion Huh Huh

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2012, 01:16:35 AM »

If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.

And the harm in these discussions is...

Idle chatter leads to hell.

Wouldn't movies, TV, and fictional books all be more idle than this?

No, because you can learn practical and applicable stuff from them, even secular entertainment.

This is the very definition of idle talk. It is completely hypothetical, as there are no other species of Homo sapiens in existence, and won't be for an excruciatingly long amount of of time, if ever. There is no reason to consider it because it's impossible for all intents and purposes.

It would be more productive to ask if we can commune the rocks on the moon, because at least they presently exist.
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« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2012, 01:26:15 AM »

Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.  
Neanderthals were smart enough to make complex tools, bury their dead, and use language.

So...

Also, they did not precede Homo Sapiens. They are a distinct line.
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« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2012, 02:24:02 AM »

....
It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
Adam and Eve could have been Homo hablis for all we know.

That's what I am saying.  They could have been something not Homo at all.
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« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2012, 02:35:45 AM »

What if pigs could fly? Would they still be pork?
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« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2012, 02:53:17 AM »

A non-sapiens species of Homo existed as recently as about 15,000 years ago (Homo floresiensis), so who knows -- maybe we'll find other non-sapiens that existed 10, 5, even 2,000 years ago.
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« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2012, 03:24:57 AM »

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
We're not talking about monkeys.
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« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2012, 03:28:55 AM »

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
We're not talking about monkeys.
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« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2012, 03:30:28 AM »

If an ecumenical council did not explicitly condemn the discussion of hypothetical theological questions, a believable forgery should be made. Albeit, it would not stop discussion, sadly.

And the harm in these discussions is...

Idle chatter leads to hell.

Wouldn't movies, TV, and fictional books all be more idle than this?

No, because you can learn practical and applicable stuff from them, even secular entertainment.

If you think nothing is to be learned from this conversation, I submit that you need to look harder.

This is the very definition of idle talk. It is completely hypothetical, as there are no other species of Homo sapiens in existence, and won't be for an excruciatingly long amount of of time, if ever. There is no reason to consider it because it's impossible for all intents and purposes.

Maybe, maybe not. But hypotheticals, contrary to popular anti-intellectual opinion, are quite useful as tools for exploring our understanding of concepts. What, in theological terms, is a human being? That is the question underlying this question, and it strikes me as a rather important one.

It would be more productive to ask if we can commune the rocks on the moon, because at least they presently exist.

It would also be trivially answered and provide no further insight into anthropology (as a subdiscipline of theology, not as the scientific study of human beings).
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« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2012, 05:31:14 AM »

I once watched a documentary that said that one of the things that seperates us from neanderthals is that they did not have any imagination and were therefore unable to comprehend anything outside the physical reality which they could observe.
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« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2012, 07:17:34 AM »

Quote
Would Neanderthals Be Able to Commune?


No.  Regardless of your view on evolution, for which will assume for this thread actually exists, the answer is no.  

Why?  Apparently, the soul and conscience of a human being and free will to follow or reject God didn’t exist until modern man.  You see, when nothing turned into something, life then sprang from lifelessness, which in turn took a gagillion years to evolve into something useful, that was the point where a species could exist without outside support of some kind (evolution/God) and the soul was implanted.  If it were not true, Neanderthals (or a previous elusive species) would have been the ones to start writing the scriptures.  Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.  

So, no.  Only Homo sapiens have developed these abilities; therefore, only modern man was given the ability to commune with God.  Plus, there was no church at that time.  There are other reasons, but this pretty much sums it up.

Make sense?

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.

I guess the mentally retarded and the severely autistic also can't commune...
It's a little offensive that you are comparing people with mental disabilities to neaderthals.

Well, let me ask you this: can the severely mentally ill and severely autistic "understand eternal existence," (and, honestly, I don't know I'd agree with Kerdy that this is something a homo sapien can do), "God from godlessness," and "right from wrong?"  To Kerdy, that is what makes someone human, which was a suggestion that those homo sapiens who cannot do those things (which would also apply to all infants) are best classes as Neanderthals instead of humans.
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« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2012, 07:52:35 AM »

Since they could do little more than grunt and procreate, they didn’t have the capacity to understand eternal existence, right from wrong, God from godlessness, etc.  
Neanderthals were smart enough to make complex tools, bury their dead, and use language.

So...

Also, they did not precede Homo Sapiens. They are a distinct line.
Dogs can learn how to open doors and close them.  That means little.

I never said one way or the other where they originated or whom they preceded.
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« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2012, 07:53:39 AM »

A non-sapiens species of Homo existed as recently as about 15,000 years ago (Homo floresiensis), so who knows -- maybe we'll find other non-sapiens that existed 10, 5, even 2,000 years ago.

But did they commune?
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« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2012, 07:54:10 AM »

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
We're not talking about monkeys.

Everything is talking about monkeys.
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« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2012, 09:02:10 AM »

What a waste of bandwidth. Anyone know any Neanderthals being denied Communion?
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« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2012, 12:19:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



We don't, because humans are animals. The question would be, what is the difference between a human animal and a non human animal.



So Cat can takez Communion Huh Huh

stay blessed,
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of course not, because they are non human animals
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« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2012, 12:50:01 PM »

Well if one were to be cloned it would no longer be hypothetical and someone said earlier it may be possible so there is, in my opinion anyway, a small window for this conversation to be relevant.
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« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2012, 03:19:11 PM »

Now here's a pressing topic for the Orthodox to answer.
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« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2012, 03:30:06 PM »

Now here's a pressing topic for the Orthodox to answer.

The Church will make the correct answer when it happens.
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« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2012, 06:30:26 PM »

It also depends on who Adam and Eve really were.  Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal, or some earlier form of monkey.
We're not talking about monkeys.

Everything is talking about monkeys.
We aren't talking about monkeys because Homo Sapiens aren't monkeys and didn't evolve from monkeys.

You clearly misunderstand evolution and the Homo sapiens species.

Neanderthals are Homo Sapiens, they are the same species as we are, but they are a subgroup of our species, they are Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis.

As for communion and the grace of God. We cannot say that it is exclusive to the Homo Sapiens species. In fact, we even have holy men and bishops today who argue that if we make contact with other intelligent life out there, that we should extend the Gospel to them as well, and seek to baptize them.

Humans evolve and if The Lord tarries further, we will continue to evolve, possibly to the point where our descendants "become" another subgroup of Homo Sapiens. It isn't a natural law or our just being Homo Sapiens that grants us the status of being higher than the angels and made in the image of God. But rather it is that God made all humans, all Homo Sapiens after his own image and likeness, regardless of their brain development, physical development and other such traits.
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« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2012, 08:54:39 PM »

What if pigs could fly? Would they still be pork?

If they could, I fear that stronger umbrellas are called for!
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« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2012, 09:30:07 PM »

They are considered to be Homo Sapiens (Neanderthalensis).   

Same Genus, but those are two different species.

Some scientists classify them as homo sapiens neanderthalensis, and modern man as homo sapiens sapiens, and others classify them simply as homo neanderthalensis. In the first case, they would be a subspecies of homo sapiens, and only in the second case would they be considered a different species.

Not that anybody probably cares, but this sort of thinking points out the huge problem with our highly Aristotelian system of taxonomy. In the end it makes no difference whether Neanderthal man is classified as a 'different species', because even if the most specific species of Greek philosophy exist as concrete things, man has proved himself to be completely inept when it comes to discerning what these most specific species are. If Neanderthal man still lived, whether they could commune would not depend on whether we scientifically classify them as a separate species or not.
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« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2012, 09:39:10 PM »

We aren't talking about monkeys because Homo Sapiens aren't monkeys and didn't evolve from monkeys.

You clearly misunderstand evolution and the Homo sapiens species.

This all depends on who you ask.  Firstly, new evidence suggests we are more closely related to Orangutan than Chimps (yes, both apes).  However, we, according to science, all come from the same Order, so we are all connected.  Use which ever word you like, but according to science, all animals are related; therefore, it’s all about monkeys, or rats, or birds, or whatever.  Unless I clearly misunderstand…again. Roll Eyes


Neanderthals are Homo Sapiens, they are the same species as we are, but they are a subgroup of our species, they are Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis.

Apparently not.  Same Genus, different species.  (Sorry about the chart, I had trouble getting it to line up right)

                                     Human      Neanderthal      
Domain                Eukaryote                  Eukaryote      
Kingdom                           Animal       Animal         
Phylum                Chordate                  Chordate                  
Subphyla                           Vertebrate     Vertebrate      
Class                Mammal                 Mammal                  
Order                Primate                  Primate         
Family                Hominidae                  Hominidae      
Genus                Homo      Homo         
Species                Sapien      neanderthalensis                 

The subspecies is a very, very recent idea I first heard about it was around 2009-2010.  This is still open for debate and in no way universally accepted.  It is also based on the notion Neanderthals and Sapiens interbred normally, not as a rarity or even at all.  I was under the belief evolution worked with fact, not possibility.  “To influence evolution and phylogeny, interbreeding must be constant and genetically influent.”

As for communion and the grace of God. We cannot say that it is exclusive to the Homo Sapiens species. In fact, we even have holy men and bishops today who argue that if we make contact with other intelligent life out there, that we should extend the Gospel to them as well, and seek to baptize them.
 


I understood your view was holy men and bishops were not scientists and those who took a literal sense of Creation were to be dismissed as lacking in proper education.  But these men are ok because they are closer to your view?  What evidence, scientifically speaking, is there of an advanced alien race outside of our own planet?  None.  In fact, people who run around talking about this “evidence” are joked about.  
Even if there were an advanced alien species traveling through the universe and they decide to stop by and introduce themselves, do you really think they would look at our primitive state, compared to theirs, and believe in any religion from here?  Doubtful.  We can hypothetical all day.  Those whacky aliens…

Humans evolve and if The Lord tarries further, we will continue to evolve, possibly to the point where our descendants "become" another subgroup of Homo Sapiens. It isn't a natural law or our just being Homo Sapiens that grants us the status of being higher than the angels and made in the image of God. But rather it is that God made all humans, all Homo Sapiens after his own image and likeness, regardless of their brain development, physical development and other such traits.


If humans are doing anything, it’s de-evolving. (sapins, wise, rational, present participle of sapere, to be wise)

According to the science produced on this forum from evolutionists, as I understand it, a theory or hypothesis is valid until someone can prove it invalid (at least that is what I have been told here).  So, I came up with a perfectly acceptable idea and unless you can prove it invalid, outside your opinion, it stands as fact.
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« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2012, 09:52:31 PM »

They are considered to be Homo Sapiens (Neanderthalensis).   

Same Genus, but those are two different species.

Some scientists classify them as homo sapiens neanderthalensis, and modern man as homo sapiens sapiens, and others classify them simply as homo neanderthalensis. In the first case, they would be a subspecies of homo sapiens, and only in the second case would they be considered a different species.

Not that anybody probably cares, but this sort of thinking points out the huge problem with our highly Aristotelian system of taxonomy. In the end it makes no difference whether Neanderthal man is classified as a 'different species', because even if the most specific species of Greek philosophy exist as concrete things, man has proved himself to be completely inept when it comes to discerning what these most specific species are. If Neanderthal man still lived, whether they could commune would not depend on whether we scientifically classify them as a separate species or not.
Yep exactly.
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« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2012, 10:34:41 PM »

We aren't talking about monkeys because Homo Sapiens aren't monkeys and didn't evolve from monkeys.

You clearly misunderstand evolution and the Homo sapiens species.

This all depends on who you ask.  Firstly, new evidence suggests we are more closely related to Orangutan than Chimps (yes, both apes).  However, we, according to science, all come from the same Order, so we are all connected.  Use which ever word you like, but according to science, all animals are related; therefore, it’s all about monkeys, or rats, or birds, or whatever.  Unless I clearly misunderstand…again. Roll Eyes

Of course we are all connected, and you are right in saying we are members of the same Order. We are all Primates. But you clearly misunderstand it and oversimplify it as though it were an A = B sort of comparison, this always seems to be an issue various kinds of fundamentalists have with things.

Humans, Apes, Chimpanzees and Orangutans are all members of the same Order. Order is about the 6th level of classification.

For humans, we are classified under the Order of Primates. Within that Order, we are of the family of Hominidae, of the tribe of Hominini, genus Homo and species Homo Sapiens.

We are "related" to apes, chimpanzees and such through our Order.

If you want a parallel, then look at things like dogs. Dogs/Wolves, Cats (domestic and others), Foxes, Bears and others are all members of the Carnivora Order. Therefore, they are all "related" and share a common ancestry through that Order. But cats clearly aren't dogs, foxes clearly aren't bears, etc...

Or for another parallel, look at horses, zebras, rhinos, onagers, tapirs and donkeys. They are all members of the Perissodactyla Order. They all share that common ancestry, but (for the most part) they aren't equivalent to each other or "like" each other other than the common ancestry.

For all of those mentioned above, we are all of the Class of Mammalia. We are all "mammals". We are related at that level, but we aren't equivalent or the same.

Quote

Neanderthals are Homo Sapiens, they are the same species as we are, but they are a subgroup of our species, they are Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis.

Apparently not.  Same Genus, different species.  (Sorry about the chart, I had trouble getting it to line up right)

                                     Human      Neanderthal      
Domain                Eukaryote                  Eukaryote      
Kingdom                           Animal       Animal         
Phylum                Chordate                  Chordate                  
Subphyla                           Vertebrate     Vertebrate      
Class                Mammal                 Mammal                  
Order                Primate                  Primate         
Family                Hominidae                  Hominidae      
Genus                Homo      Homo         
Species                Sapien      neanderthalensis                 

The subspecies is a very, very recent idea I first heard about it was around 2009-2010.  This is still open for debate and in no way universally accepted.  It is also based on the notion Neanderthals and Sapiens interbred normally, not as a rarity or even at all.  I was under the belief evolution worked with fact, not possibility.  “To influence evolution and phylogeny, interbreeding must be constant and genetically influent.”

You are right, there are two interpretations, one says that we are the same species, and another that we are two different species. But is salvation connected to species?


Quote
As for communion and the grace of God. We cannot say that it is exclusive to the Homo Sapiens species. In fact, we even have holy men and bishops today who argue that if we make contact with other intelligent life out there, that we should extend the Gospel to them as well, and seek to baptize them.
 


I understood your view was holy men and bishops were not scientists and those who took a literal sense of Creation were to be dismissed as lacking in proper education.  But these men are ok because they are closer to your view?  What evidence, scientifically speaking, is there of an advanced alien race outside of our own planet?  None.  In fact, people who run around talking about this “evidence” are joked about.  
Even if there were an advanced alien species traveling through the universe and they decide to stop by and introduce themselves, do you really think they would look at our primitive state, compared to theirs, and believe in any religion from here?  Doubtful.  We can hypothetical all day.  Those whacky aliens…

Humans evolve and if The Lord tarries further, we will continue to evolve, possibly to the point where our descendants "become" another subgroup of Homo Sapiens. It isn't a natural law or our just being Homo Sapiens that grants us the status of being higher than the angels and made in the image of God. But rather it is that God made all humans, all Homo Sapiens after his own image and likeness, regardless of their brain development, physical development and other such traits.


If humans are doing anything, it’s de-evolving. (sapins, wise, rational, present participle of sapere, to be wise)

According to the science produced on this forum from evolutionists, as I understand it, a theory or hypothesis is valid until someone can prove it invalid (at least that is what I have been told here).  So, I came up with a perfectly acceptable idea and unless you can prove it invalid, outside your opinion, it stands as fact.


You clearly don't understand my view then and you don't understand the positions of those holy men either. You are putting your Modern Fundamentalist views on them. They weren't fundamentalists, and if you want to be, then that's okay, just don't think you're being more Orthodox by being a Fundamentalist, in fact, you're being more Protestant than anything else. They believed in the literal sense of Genesis, but not for the same reasons you do and you cannot super-impose 20th Century Biblical literalism and Fundamentalism back onto the holy persons of the Church.

You have seemed to try to impose your own view and interpretation on the Church and seem to assume the Church has to be "this way" and has to essentially be "fundamentalist" or it isn't really the Church and has changed. You have gone so far as to condemn the church for "changing" or "innovating" by not being fundamentalist or conforming to modern fundamentalism and Biblical literalism (which is largely a product of heretical Western Christianity and western literalism/fundamentalism)

Actually no, we aren't devolving. You cannot "devolve" you can only evolve. Devolution would assume "winding back the clock" which isn't possible.

Also, theories don't work as you are suggesting, in fact, you are treating your opinion as a theory, which it certainly is not. Opinions are not assumed true till proven false. Theories are deeper and more thoroughly tested and "proven" than opinions or hypothesis are.
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« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2012, 10:41:30 PM »

What if pigs could fly? Would they still be pork?

Would they be Kosher, both being swine and fowl?
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« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2012, 10:46:17 PM »

According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?

As long as they are descended from Adam.
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« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2012, 10:54:57 PM »

They are considered to be Homo Sapiens (Neanderthalensis).   

Same Genus, but those are two different species.

Some scientists classify them as homo sapiens neanderthalensis, and modern man as homo sapiens sapiens, and others classify them simply as homo neanderthalensis. In the first case, they would be a subspecies of homo sapiens, and only in the second case would they be considered a different species.

Not that anybody probably cares, but this sort of thinking points out the huge problem with our highly Aristotelian system of taxonomy. In the end it makes no difference whether Neanderthal man is classified as a 'different species', because even if the most specific species of Greek philosophy exist as concrete things, man has proved himself to be completely inept when it comes to discerning what these most specific species are. If Neanderthal man still lived, whether they could commune would not depend on whether we scientifically classify them as a separate species or not.

At least, it hopefully wouldn't/
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« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2012, 12:22:06 AM »

Isn't this effectively a moot question in the light of current analysis of the human genome suggests to many scientists that most humans of non African descent have as much as 4 percent Neanderthal DNA. There is also another Homonid strain recently discovered in Siberia/Northern Asia that is neither Neanderthal nor early Homo sapiens, a portion of it's DNA survives only in Austronesians and Aborigines of the Pacific region. 

To my knowledge the Orthodox among these populations do in fact receive communion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/06/neanderthals-dna-humans-genome
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« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2012, 12:40:54 AM »

A more simple answer would be that if they could or would ask about Jesus Christ and we could teach them the Gospel and if they learn some basic things about the faith and could practice it, then yes, they can be baptized and communed.

Same thing for any other intelligent life.

Yet that is not a question that can ever be given since they are exinct.
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« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2012, 12:54:50 AM »

Could plant life commune?
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« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2012, 01:04:15 AM »

Could plant life commune?

You mean my pet venus trap should be able to?
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« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2012, 01:04:36 AM »

Could plant life commune?

This punch line writes itself.
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« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2012, 01:08:26 AM »

A more simple answer would be that if they could or would ask about Jesus Christ and we could teach them the Gospel and if they learn some basic things about the faith and could practice it, then yes, they can be baptized and communed.

Same thing for any other intelligent life.

Yet that is not a question that can ever be given since they are exinct.

I'm not sure about that.  Angels don't commune or get baptized. 
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« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2012, 01:12:09 AM »

According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?

As long as they are descended from Adam.

I think that's it.
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« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2012, 01:13:31 AM »

Could plant life commune?

It already does, in its own way.
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« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2012, 01:19:23 AM »

A more simple answer would be that if they could or would ask about Jesus Christ and we could teach them the Gospel and if they learn some basic things about the faith and could practice it, then yes, they can be baptized and communed.

Same thing for any other intelligent life.

Yet that is not a question that can ever be given since they are exinct.

I'm not sure about that.  Angels don't commune or get baptized. 

Angels aren't material beings and aren't a part of "this world".
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« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2012, 01:21:24 AM »

According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?

As long as they are descended from Adam.

I think that's it.

It isn't that simple. Who is Adam? Do we understand him to be a literal single human being named Adam who lived 6,000-10,000 years ago and whose wife was literally made from his rib and named Eve?

Or do we understand Adam as a representation of mankind?
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« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2012, 01:25:05 AM »

Then what is mankind?

lol
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« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2012, 01:28:32 AM »

Then what is mankind?

lol

Any and all who are made in the image and likeness of God and who can receive his grace and truth.

As Orthodox have said before, if intelligent extra-terrestrials were to visit or contact us, it would be our duty to spread the Gospel to them.
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« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2012, 01:34:21 AM »

A few things I noticed on here that I would like to address. Firstly, the notion that Neanderthals are merely an extinct subspecies of Homo Sapiens (our species) is bogus. It is a very recent notion (2009 I think) with not a lot of scientific evidence to support it. The fundamental flaw is that it assumes that Homo-Sapiens and Neanderthals constantly interbred with each other, when in reality, our interbreeding was very rare. This is why only non-African people have traces of Neanderthal blood in them, going even further, some scientists would even suggest that only Europeans have Neanderthal blood in them. This notion was probably developed by Protestant pseudo-scientists who did not want to admit the existence of another self-aware non-Homo Sapien species, so they basically tried to say that Neanderthals were just a type of Homo-Sapien like us because of their taboo with human evolution.

Secondly, someone mentioned 'de-evolving'. That's impossible. You can't 'de-evolve'. In fact, it goes against the principles of evolution because it assumes that evolution is supposed to produce traits that we would classify as being valuable or good--like long life or intelligence, when in reality, evolution only produces traits that will help us to reproduce the most efficiently. Take mice, they are one of the stupidest animals out there, but still an EXTREMELY successful species because of how capable they are of reproducing. On the other hand, take gorillas and chimpanzees. They are probably the most intelligent, cool animals out there other than humans, yet, evolutionarily speaking, they are not very successful species. The reason being that it takes a very long time for a baby chimp or gorilla to reach sexual maturity, and that they only reproduce like once every 2-4 years.

That being said, humans are not 'de-evolving'. Humans are the most evolutionarily successful species of all time. For all our idiotic stupidity, we're practically overpopulating ourselves with our 7 billion population. Evolutionarily speaking, all that matters is the fact that we are reproducing like bunnies, nothing else matters. Hell, maybe our stupidity is evolutionarily beneficial because it makes us more likely to have sex without condoms and thus produce more children to further increase our population. In fact, education even seems like it would be evolutionarily dangerous. Look at the more educated places in the world like Europe and you will see a trend for people to have less and less children. This is not good from an evolutionary standpoint. On the other hand, compare it to less educated places like Sub-Sahara Africa or the American South and you will see people reproducing like crazy--something which is evolutionarily beneficial.
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« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2012, 01:35:01 AM »

Could plant life commune?

You mean my pet venus trap should be able to?
I'm asking what others thinks.
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« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2012, 01:35:58 AM »

Could plant life commune?

It already does, in its own way.
Would you elaborate?
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« Reply #73 on: November 15, 2012, 01:37:28 AM »

According to the Orthodox definition of 'personhood' and the 'soul' (things which I do not understand), would all of the other extinct species of human like Neanderthals or Homo Erectus be considered people and be allowed to receive the Sacraments like people? Or would they still be considered animals? Where do we draw the line between humans and animals? Would the Orthodox definition of personhood apply to just homo sapiens or would it apply to ALL of the species under the Homo genus? I know that it is sort of irrelevant considering that all of the other Homo species are extinct except for us, but it still is very interesting. And I also read that we have enough DNA to clone a Neanderthal in the near future. If this were to happen, could that Neanderthal become an Orthodox Christian?

As long as they are descended from Adam.

I think that's it.

It isn't that simple. Who is Adam? Do we understand him to be a literal single human being named Adam who lived 6,000-10,000 years ago and whose wife was literally made from his rib and named Eve?

Or do we understand Adam as a representation of mankind?
Perhaps the first single cell organism to multiply.
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« Reply #74 on: November 15, 2012, 01:38:22 AM »

If a human and a chimpanzee were to reproduce, could the offspring Commune? This is not entirely impossible. We've seen hybrids in the animal kingdom of creatures that are even more genetically diverse than humans and chimps that have been successful, so who's to say that a human and a chimp cannot reproduce? In fact, there are even some scientists who believe that the Bono genus (which includes Chimps) should be merged with the Homo genus (human species). Scientifically speaking, creatures of the same genus are capable of interbreeding.
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« Reply #75 on: November 15, 2012, 01:38:42 AM »

Then what is mankind?

lol
A spontaneously generated accident.
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« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2012, 01:39:48 AM »

Then what is mankind?

lol

Any and all who are made in the image and likeness of God and who can receive his grace and truth.

As Orthodox have said before, if intelligent extra-terrestrials were to visit or contact us, it would be our duty to spread the Gospel to them.
Plant aliens, like Farscape, who could then commune, right?
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« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2012, 01:42:02 AM »

If a human and a chimpanzee were to reproduce, could the offspring Commune? This is not entirely impossible. We've seen hybrids in the animal kingdom of creatures that are even more genetically diverse than humans and chimps that have been successful, so who's to say that a human and a chimp cannot reproduce? In fact, there are even some scientists who believe that the Bono genus (which includes Chimps) should be merged with the Homo genus (human species). Scientifically speaking, creatures of the same genus are capable of interbreeding.
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
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« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2012, 01:42:39 AM »

If a human and a chimpanzee were to reproduce, could the offspring Commune? This is not entirely impossible. We've seen hybrids in the animal kingdom of creatures that are even more genetically diverse than humans and chimps that have been successful, so who's to say that a human and a chimp cannot reproduce? In fact, there are even some scientists who believe that the Bono genus (which includes Chimps) should be merged with the Homo genus (human species). Scientifically speaking, creatures of the same genus are capable of interbreeding.
Are there any interbred species alive today?

EDIT:  I should phrase this differently.  Which species today regularly interbreed?
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« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2012, 01:43:59 AM »

If a human and a chimpanzee were to reproduce, could the offspring Commune? This is not entirely impossible. We've seen hybrids in the animal kingdom of creatures that are even more genetically diverse than humans and chimps that have been successful, so who's to say that a human and a chimp cannot reproduce? In fact, there are even some scientists who believe that the Bono genus (which includes Chimps) should be merged with the Homo genus (human species). Scientifically speaking, creatures of the same genus are capable of interbreeding.
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
You obviously misunderstand how evolution works.
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« Reply #80 on: November 15, 2012, 01:47:27 AM »

If a human and a chimpanzee were to reproduce, could the offspring Commune? This is not entirely impossible. We've seen hybrids in the animal kingdom of creatures that are even more genetically diverse than humans and chimps that have been successful, so who's to say that a human and a chimp cannot reproduce? In fact, there are even some scientists who believe that the Bono genus (which includes Chimps) should be merged with the Homo genus (human species). Scientifically speaking, creatures of the same genus are capable of interbreeding.
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
You obviously misunderstand how evolution works.
Don’t believe everything that you breathe.
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« Reply #81 on: November 15, 2012, 01:49:43 AM »

If a human and a chimpanzee were to reproduce, could the offspring Commune? This is not entirely impossible. We've seen hybrids in the animal kingdom of creatures that are even more genetically diverse than humans and chimps that have been successful, so who's to say that a human and a chimp cannot reproduce? In fact, there are even some scientists who believe that the Bono genus (which includes Chimps) should be merged with the Homo genus (human species). Scientifically speaking, creatures of the same genus are capable of interbreeding.
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
You obviously misunderstand how evolution works.
Don’t believe everything that you breathe.
That's why I hold my breath.
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« Reply #82 on: November 15, 2012, 01:50:41 AM »

If a human and a chimpanzee were to reproduce, could the offspring Commune? This is not entirely impossible. We've seen hybrids in the animal kingdom of creatures that are even more genetically diverse than humans and chimps that have been successful, so who's to say that a human and a chimp cannot reproduce? In fact, there are even some scientists who believe that the Bono genus (which includes Chimps) should be merged with the Homo genus (human species). Scientifically speaking, creatures of the same genus are capable of interbreeding.
In the time of chimpanzees I was a monkey.
You obviously misunderstand how evolution works.
Don’t believe everything that you breathe.
That's why I hold my breath.
And my time is a piece of wax fallin’ on a termite, who's chokin’ on the splinters.
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« Reply #83 on: November 15, 2012, 01:55:18 AM »

Are there any interbred species alive today?

Of humans and chimpanzees? Maybe. Western media certainly doesn't cover everything that goes on in third-world parts of the world. How do we know that some impoverished person in Africa (No racism intended, chimpanzees' natural habitat is Africa) didn't reproduce with a chimpanzee?

Quote
Which species today regularly interbreed?

Honestly? None regularly. Most only interbreed due to selective breeding--that is, humans interbreeding them. Such as mules--which is made from a horse and a donkey. Or the infamous liger.
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« Reply #84 on: November 15, 2012, 02:01:56 AM »

Neanderthals may often be communing, depending on how you look at it. As I remember reading, anthropologists found that on average about 2-4% of people's DNA is from Neanderthals, due to intermixing in prehistoric times.
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« Reply #85 on: November 15, 2012, 02:10:43 AM »

Are there any interbred species alive today?

Of humans and chimpanzees? Maybe. Western media certainly doesn't cover everything that goes on in third-world parts of the world. How do we know that some impoverished person in Africa (No racism intended, chimpanzees' natural habitat is Africa) didn't reproduce with a chimpanzee?

Quote
Which species today regularly interbreed?

Honestly? None regularly. Most only interbreed due to selective breeding--that is, humans interbreeding them. Such as mules--which is made from a horse and a donkey. Or the infamous liger.
Neither of which produce offspring or offspring which survives on its own. 
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« Reply #86 on: November 15, 2012, 02:12:29 AM »

Neanderthals may often be communing, depending on how you look at it. As I remember reading, anthropologists found that on average about 2-4% of people's DNA is from Neanderthals, due to intermixing in prehistoric times.
Is that 2-4% contained in the 95% shared by chimps, 94% shared by rats or in what's left?
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« Reply #87 on: November 15, 2012, 02:13:43 AM »

Neanderthals may often be communing, depending on how you look at it. As I remember reading, anthropologists found that on average about 2-4% of people's DNA is from Neanderthals, due to intermixing in prehistoric times.

Since most of my DNA (I think about 31/32nds of it) is from Western Europe, I probably have Neanderthal DNA. Should I stop taking communion? LOL!
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« Reply #88 on: November 15, 2012, 02:15:26 AM »

Then what is mankind?

lol

Any and all who are made in the image and likeness of God and who can receive his grace and truth.

As Orthodox have said before, if intelligent extra-terrestrials were to visit or contact us, it would be our duty to spread the Gospel to them.
Plant aliens, like Farscape, who could then commune, right?
This is important.  I have a follow up question depending on the answer.
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« Reply #89 on: November 15, 2012, 02:34:15 AM »

Secondly, someone mentioned 'de-evolving'. That's impossible. You can't 'de-evolve'. In fact, it goes against the principles of evolution because it assumes that evolution is supposed to produce traits that we would classify as being valuable or good--like long life or intelligence, when in reality, evolution only produces traits that will help us to reproduce the most efficiently. Take mice, they are one of the stupidest animals out there, but still an EXTREMELY successful species because of how capable they are of reproducing. On the other hand, take gorillas and chimpanzees. They are probably the most intelligent, cool animals out there other than humans, yet, evolutionarily speaking, they are not very successful species. The reason being that it takes a very long time for a baby chimp or gorilla to reach sexual maturity, and that they only reproduce like once every 2-4 years.

That being said, humans are not 'de-evolving'. Humans are the most evolutionarily successful species of all time. For all our idiotic stupidity, we're practically overpopulating ourselves with our 7 billion population. Evolutionarily speaking, all that matters is the fact that we are reproducing like bunnies, nothing else matters. Hell, maybe our stupidity is evolutionarily beneficial because it makes us more likely to have sex without condoms and thus produce more children to further increase our population. In fact, education even seems like it would be evolutionarily dangerous. Look at the more educated places in the world like Europe and you will see a trend for people to have less and less children. This is not good from an evolutionary standpoint. On the other hand, compare it to less educated places like Sub-Sahara Africa or the American South and you will see people reproducing like crazy--something which is evolutionarily beneficial.
It rather depends on how you would honestly define evolution.  A species reverting back to a more primitive and animalistic state, as mankind is blatantly doing, is not something I would consider to fit into the evolutionary model as it has been historically defined.  It's a reversal of evolution, i.e., a de-evolving of a species, reverse evolution, or whatever phraseology you wish to use.
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« Reply #90 on: November 15, 2012, 10:46:30 AM »

the Bono genus (which includes Chimps)
I think you mean the Pan genus.
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« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2012, 11:26:02 AM »

Neither of which produce offspring or offspring which survives on its own.  

Felis catus and Felis silvestris. And their offspring can breed. Female żubrońs also can breed (same for males but 1st generation). Female tülus also can breed (don't know about males). We can also mention Bengal cats which can breed freely.
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« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2012, 11:38:11 AM »

Polar Bears (Ursus maritimus) and Brown Bears (Ursus arctos) produce fertile offspring.
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