Topic: Vatican Continues to bless ‘Uniatism and Sheep Stealing’ in India

[theorthodoxchurch]

Vatican Continues to bless ‘Uniatism and Sheep Stealing’ in India
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/10/vatican-continues-to-bless-uniatism-and-sheep-stealing-in-india/

[Cyrillic]

A fox loses his hairs but not his tricks.

[ialmisry]

is this news?

[JamesRottnek]

Vatican Continues to bless ‘Uniatism and Sheep Stealing’ in India
http://theorthodoxchurch.info/blog/news/2012/10/vatican-continues-to-bless-uniatism-and-sheep-stealing-in-india/

That article is anything but a news article; it is a rather confused diatribe.

[serb1389]

I consider this news.  Shows the movement in the RC church towards solidifying their fingers in the pot...so to say

[Alpo]

I fail too see the reason for outrage. Indians are free to believe in Catholic doctrines if they want to.

[serb1389]

I fail too see the reason for outrage. Indians are free to believe in Catholic doctrines if they want to.

the outrage is the process.  it is the same outrage that orthodox christians have when protestants go to traditionally orthodox countries because orthodox christianity is a "heathen "religion in their opinion. 

[choy]

Note that heirarchs of Eastern Catholic Churches can claim titles even before the Vatican bestows it on them.  His Beatitude Sviatoslav of the UGCC is referred to as a Patriarch within his Church (we commemorate him as such during Liturgy) even though his official title from the Vatican is Major Archbishop.  Other bishops of different Churches would refer to him as Patriarch as well.

[Alpo]

I fail too see the reason for outrage. Indians are free to believe in Catholic doctrines if they want to.

the outrage is the process.  it is the same outrage that orthodox christians have when protestants go to traditionally orthodox countries because orthodox christianity is a "heathen "religion in their opinion. 

I don't see anything wrong with that either. Protestants and Catholics are wrong but they are free to be in error if they want to.

[Cognomen]

I fail too see the reason for outrage. Indians are free to believe in Catholic doctrines if they want to.

the outrage is the process.  it is the same outrage that orthodox christians have when protestants go to traditionally orthodox countries because orthodox christianity is a "heathen "religion in their opinion. 

I don't see anything wrong with that either. Protestants and Catholics are wrong but they are free to be in error if they want to.

So no concern over people being drawn away from the Church and into error?

[Alpo]

I fail too see the reason for outrage. Indians are free to believe in Catholic doctrines if they want to.

the outrage is the process.  it is the same outrage that orthodox christians have when protestants go to traditionally orthodox countries because orthodox christianity is a "heathen "religion in their opinion. 

I don't see anything wrong with that either. Protestants and Catholics are wrong but they are free to be in error if they want to.

So no concern over people being drawn away from the Church and into error?

More like concern over freedom of religion and double standards.

[serb1389]

^ my concern is with churches that call themselves christian, behaving like christians.  Guess we are starting from different points. 

[serb1389]

"All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not."
- 1 Cor. 10:23

[choy]

^ my concern is with churches that call themselves christian, behaving like christians.  Guess we are starting from different points. 

If they are behaving like Christians, what is the problem then?

[serb1389]

^ my concern is with churches that call themselves christian, behaving like christians.  Guess we are starting from different points. 

If they are behaving like Christians, what is the problem then?

Sorry I wasn't clear in my typing.  I mean that they call themselves Christians, ACTUALLY behaving like Christians.   Which in this case they are not

[choy]

Sorry I wasn't clear in my typing.  I mean that they call themselves Christians, ACTUALLY behaving like Christians.   Which in this case they are not

If they are ACTUALLY behaving like Christians, then they are Christians, right?  "Whoever is not against us is for us."

[serb1389]

Sorry I wasn't clear in my typing.  I mean that they call themselves Christians, ACTUALLY behaving like Christians.   Which in this case they are not

If they are ACTUALLY behaving like Christians, then they are Christians, right?  "Whoever is not against us is for us."

Well what you are asking is actually a much bigger question.  I tend to ride with the Spermatikos Logos theology of St. Justin Martyr, as a response to whether or not all people have the ability to be good & to be good Christians.  Then we get into the issue of ethics.  But in order to engage in ethics we must first agree that ethics are not personal but rather more universal.  If we take a look at the 10 commandments for example, we are told to not covet our neighbors things.  Here we have our neighbor, covering our things.  Orthodox Christians being brought to the Catholic church

[choy]

Well what you are asking is actually a much bigger question.  I tend to ride with the Spermatikos Logos theology of St. Justin Martyr, as a response to whether or not all people have the ability to be good & to be good Christians.  Then we get into the issue of ethics.  But in order to engage in ethics we must first agree that ethics are not personal but rather more universal.  If we take a look at the 10 commandments for example, we are told to not covet our neighbors things.  Here we have our neighbor, covering our things.  Orthodox Christians being brought to the Catholic church

And that is my question.  You say they actually act like Christians.  So it shouldn't be a problem if they are in the Catholic Church or they are in the Orthodox Church.  If they are good Christians, so what?

[Deacon Lance]

  Orthodox Christians being brought to the Catholic church

That is the claim.  Where is the proof?  The article doesn't even talk about sheep stealing, only about the Archbishop using the title Catholicos.  Why this would entice anyone to join the Syro-Malankar Catholic Church I have no idea.

[podkarpatska]

  Orthodox Christians being brought to the Catholic church

That is the claim.  Where is the proof?  The article doesn't even talk about sheep stealing, only about the Archbishop using the title Catholicos.  Why this would entice anyone to join the Syro-Malankar Catholic Church I have no idea.

I was going to say the same and note that many of us Orthodox are rightfully upset when the UGCC appropriates the title of Patriarch for their leader (without the 'imprimatur' of Rome) - especially since there is no parallel Patriarch within Orthodoxy (at least within the canonical Church - and there probably should be one for that matter). I seriously doubt that Orthodox faithful in regions where there are two or even three Patriarchs are confused by the use of the title by a churchman other than their own.  There are many issues between Orthodoxy and the Roman Church over the unions, this is not really a big one in my mind.

[serb1389]

  Orthodox Christians being brought to the Catholic church

That is the claim.  Where is the proof?  The article doesn't even talk about sheep stealing, only about the Archbishop using the title Catholicos.  Why this would entice anyone to join the Syro-Malankar Catholic Church I have no idea.

Unfortunately I do not have proof.  Just first hand accounts from Malankara christians from that area. 

I should have also stated earlier that the root of my rant is not necessarily the article itself, but rather those accounts from friends i've had who have told me about the aggressive nature of the RC's in orthodox areas. 

Perhaps since I do not have proof, I should tone down my rhetoric...?

[serb1389]

Well what you are asking is actually a much bigger question.  I tend to ride with the Spermatikos Logos theology of St. Justin Martyr, as a response to whether or not all people have the ability to be good & to be good Christians.  Then we get into the issue of ethics.  But in order to engage in ethics we must first agree that ethics are not personal but rather more universal.  If we take a look at the 10 commandments for example, we are told to not covet our neighbors things.  Here we have our neighbor, covering our things.  Orthodox Christians being brought to the Catholic church

And that is my question.  You say they actually act like Christians.  So it shouldn't be a problem if they are in the Catholic Church or they are in the Orthodox Church.  If they are good Christians, so what?

So what?  the issue is one of saying to a group of christians:  "no, you're not really christians, we are really christians".  That is wrong.  Whether or not they end up as saints in the RC church or the OO or EO church, is not the point of my contention.  Rather, my point is that veering people away from their church, for another church, is wrong.  Especially if you are doing it on purpose. 

[OrthoNoob]

I have to confess, to me the complaints about Uniatism sound an awful lot like an army going into a battle and then saying "Oh no! They're shooting at us!"

Of course they are. You don't have to like it, you don't have to think they're in the right, but as long as the Roman Catholic Church believes she is the One True Church, this is what she will do. Does not the Orthodox Church accept converts from the Roman Catholic Church? Does she not have a Western Rite?

Although some of the tactics historically used by Uniate hierarchs and those associated with them were despicable, the mere existence of the Unia seems to me no more something to be upset about than the fact that the enemy shoots back in the aforementioned battle.

[podkarpatska]

I have to confess, to me the complaints about Uniatism sound an awful lot like an army going into a battle and then saying "Oh no! They're shooting at us!"

Of course they are. You don't have to like it, you don't have to think they're in the right, but as long as the Roman Catholic Church believes she is the One True Church, this is what she will do. Does not the Orthodox Church accept converts from the Roman Catholic Church? Does she not have a Western Rite?

Although some of the tactics historically used by Uniate hierarchs and those associated with them were despicable, the mere existence of the Unia seems to me no more something to be upset about than the fact that the enemy shoots back in the aforementioned battle.

OF course Rome ain't the monolith most of us assume her to be.  The official line from Rome as expressed to us in various consultations and pronouncements since Vatican 2 is that the Greek Catholics are not supposed to 'poach' Orthodox faithful in Orthodox lands. The message is not always accepted or followed in some parts of the world by the more zealous among their flock. The problem is, of course,defining what is 'poaching' and what is normal pastoral behavior. Seeking members from among the un-churched or slightly churched may be seen as poaching by one 'side' but not to another. That's the 'problem' with freedom of religion.

Also, there are plenty of Greek Catholics in Europe who are still alive in Slovakia and Ukraine who would view the tactics of some Orthodox hierarchs following the end of the second world war who were complicit with the Communist regimes in their efforts to 'liquidate' the Greek Catholic church as being 'despicable.' Bad behavior by one side does not call for equally bad behavior by the other.

[IreneOlinyk]

is this news?

No it is NOT news.  It is taken from a blog on the internet.  I trust the moderators will intervene.  We have to distinguish between news and a blogger's opinion.

[serb1389]

is this news?

No it is NOT news.  It is taken from a blog on the internet.  I trust the moderators will intervene.  We have to distinguish between news and a blogger's opinion.

The news IMO opinion is the ANNOUNCEMENT of the Catholicos

But I do see your point about how it is a blog post, not "technically" the news itself.  I will get back to you all about this soon

[neon_knights]

Isn't "uniatism" a no-no word on this site?

[biro]

Isn't "uniatism" a no-no word on this site?

Pretty much.

[serb1389]

Isn't "uniatism" a no-no word on this site?

As far as I can tell, the post you are referring to is utilizing the word in the correct historical context.  i'm willing to hear an argument though if you have one...?