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Author Topic: Orthodox Baptism  (Read 952 times) Average Rating: 0
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choy
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« on: November 06, 2012, 02:55:05 AM »

Interesting new thing I learned today.  RC teaches that anyone, even the non-baptized, can baptize a person in cases of necessity (emergency).  Orthodox Church teaches that only baptized person may perform baptisms in cases of necessity.
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« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 03:21:54 AM »

Interesting new thing I learned today.  RC teaches that anyone, even the non-baptized, can baptize a person in cases of necessity (emergency).  Orthodox Church teaches that only baptized person may perform baptisms in cases of necessity.

Interesting. Only thing I can add is that the Orthodox view seems weird with the one early saint that baptized her(?)self.
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« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2012, 05:12:25 AM »

Interesting new thing I learned today.  RC teaches that anyone, even the non-baptized, can baptize a person in cases of necessity (emergency).  Orthodox Church teaches that only baptized person may perform baptisms in cases of necessity.

Interesting. Only thing I can add is that the Orthodox view seems weird with the one early saint that baptized her(?)self.

I'm pretty sure that that story is a fabricated forgery that's considered heresy because it demonizes St. Paul as being some misogynist who wouldn't Baptise a woman.
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« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2012, 01:37:41 PM »

I made this thread because I found out a few months back that there are some differences in Sacramental Theology between the Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church.  I was not expecting this to be one of them, although the Orthodox explanation for this belief makes perfect sense to me.  I can understand also the Catholic teaching, that it is an ekonomia for someone desiring baptism but due to circumstances cannot get to a church or even have someone who is Christian around him/her.  Though I wonder if any non-Christian would actually perform a Christian ritual.
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« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 09:20:03 AM »

From a Romanian catechism article I've learned that in exceptional cases, a Deacon can perform a baptism, and in absolutely exceptional cases even a layperson can, given that the formula for being baptized in the Name of The Holy Trinity (The servant of God, etc.) is used.
However, if a Priest becomes available, then the rest of the prayers, Christmation and Holy Communion must be administered.  Even sand, soil, etc. can be used when water is missing. From one source, if you don't use water, then you have to repeat the Baptism with water also if it becomes a possibility, but until then it is valid.
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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 05:33:07 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am not quite sure the historicity of these theological distinctions really has much substance aside from speculation.  The Orthodox and Catholic approach would most likely be to wait for a priest.  We have the concept of Salvation aside from Baptism in our theology, so personally as an Orthodox if I were ever in this position to have to make a decision to baptize another person, or to support a deacon baptizing a person, I would prefer we just all prayed for this person instead, and let God sort out the rest.  Otherwise we might spend too much time arguing over the legitimacy, when we legitimate or not the focus of Baptism is prayer, albeit in this instance Liturgical and Sacramental.

I think the Catholics evolved this position of laity baptisms in the same way that evolved the Last Rites, this idea that the Sacraments MUST be administered, and some popular views evolved that without Confession or Communion near death folks might go to Hell, even if Catholic!  Perhaps this emergency Baptism concept is similarly bordering on the superstitious?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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choy
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« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2012, 06:06:43 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am not quite sure the historicity of these theological distinctions really has much substance aside from speculation.  The Orthodox and Catholic approach would most likely be to wait for a priest.  We have the concept of Salvation aside from Baptism in our theology, so personally as an Orthodox if I were ever in this position to have to make a decision to baptize another person, or to support a deacon baptizing a person, I would prefer we just all prayed for this person instead, and let God sort out the rest.  Otherwise we might spend too much time arguing over the legitimacy, when we legitimate or not the focus of Baptism is prayer, albeit in this instance Liturgical and Sacramental.

I think the Catholics evolved this position of laity baptisms in the same way that evolved the Last Rites, this idea that the Sacraments MUST be administered, and some popular views evolved that without Confession or Communion near death folks might go to Hell, even if Catholic!  Perhaps this emergency Baptism concept is similarly bordering on the superstitious?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

You make a good point.  Now makes me think if Latin legalism really reached new heights because of the Reformation.  Espeically today that many Protestant groups deny the salvific effect of Baptism.
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« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2012, 12:14:00 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am not quite sure the historicity of these theological distinctions really has much substance aside from speculation.  The Orthodox and Catholic approach would most likely be to wait for a priest.  We have the concept of Salvation aside from Baptism in our theology, so personally as an Orthodox if I were ever in this position to have to make a decision to baptize another person, or to support a deacon baptizing a person, I would prefer we just all prayed for this person instead, and let God sort out the rest.  Otherwise we might spend too much time arguing over the legitimacy, when we legitimate or not the focus of Baptism is prayer, albeit in this instance Liturgical and Sacramental.

I think the Catholics evolved this position of laity baptisms in the same way that evolved the Last Rites, this idea that the Sacraments MUST be administered, and some popular views evolved that without Confession or Communion near death folks might go to Hell, even if Catholic!  Perhaps this emergency Baptism concept is similarly bordering on the superstitious?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Are you saying that Baptism is not necessary for salvation.
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« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2012, 11:38:24 AM »

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

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1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon.57 In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize58 , by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.59
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm#1256
  Emphases mine.

So, with regards to a non-baptized person, several things are required: 1) that it be a "case of necessity"; 2) that they have "the required intention" (which is briefly explained); 3)  that the Trinitarian formula be used.
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« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2012, 11:55:12 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I am not quite sure the historicity of these theological distinctions really has much substance aside from speculation.  The Orthodox and Catholic approach would most likely be to wait for a priest.  We have the concept of Salvation aside from Baptism in our theology, so personally as an Orthodox if I were ever in this position to have to make a decision to baptize another person, or to support a deacon baptizing a person, I would prefer we just all prayed for this person instead, and let God sort out the rest.  Otherwise we might spend too much time arguing over the legitimacy, when we legitimate or not the focus of Baptism is prayer, albeit in this instance Liturgical and Sacramental.

I think the Catholics evolved this position of laity baptisms in the same way that evolved the Last Rites, this idea that the Sacraments MUST be administered, and some popular views evolved that without Confession or Communion near death folks might go to Hell, even if Catholic!  Perhaps this emergency Baptism concept is similarly bordering on the superstitious?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Are you saying that Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

Can God save someone without baptism, I would have to say that is up to God.  However Jesus established the requirement, who am I to say it is not required.

"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

So to be on the safe side, if requested, I would Baptize someone in an emergency.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 11:57:11 AM by soderquj » Logged

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HabteSelassie
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« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2012, 03:55:41 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Are you saying that Baptism is not necessary for salvation.


Saint Dismas

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 03:55:52 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2012, 04:41:23 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Are you saying that Baptism is not necessary for salvation.


Saint Dismas

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Baptism is dying and resurrecting with Christ. What did St. Dismas *literally* do? Wink
« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 04:41:37 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 12:00:44 PM »

The reason why "anyone" can baptize in the Catholic Church is essentially ecclesiological.   

Ref:

http://www.instituteofcatholicculture.org/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation-understanding-catholic-ecclesiology/

I hate to give two hours of lecture by a Greek Catholic Deacon as a reference (and unfortunately the whole of both lectures are necessary for understanding), but really this is a function of "what is the church" and "what is salvation".
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