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Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 60503 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1800 on: July 17, 2014, 09:50:28 AM »

On the contrary. Iconography is not photographic representation, but a depiction of spiritual transfiguration and heavenly realities.

All you've done is post pictures of episcopal vestments with icons on them. For your "argument" to hold water, show me an icon of a bishop-saint that shows a large motif of Christ or the Mother of God surrounded by a mandorla over his body. 

Yea, yea. You just repeated what you said in the last post with some more verbiage.

Again,


Quote
Why did you object and say the icon was supposedly on the back of the sakkos if it didn't really matter at all if "Episcopal vestments are often festooned with icons front and back, to this day"? It doesn't make any sense. You just create one convoluted argument after another until your counterpart gives up from frustration.

The fallacy of your insistence that I am wrong is right there in the section you've bolded.

And I'm still waiting for you to post an icon of any bishop-saint shown in the manner I've described.
Okay, go ahead and continue to not address it.

So this icon is not canonical because of the mandorla?

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« Reply #1801 on: July 17, 2014, 10:06:14 AM »

On the contrary. Iconography is not photographic representation, but a depiction of spiritual transfiguration and heavenly realities.

All you've done is post pictures of episcopal vestments with icons on them. For your "argument" to hold water, show me an icon of a bishop-saint that shows a large motif of Christ or the Mother of God surrounded by a mandorla over his body. 

Yea, yea. You just repeated what you said in the last post with some more verbiage.

Again,


Quote
Why did you object and say the icon was supposedly on the back of the sakkos if it didn't really matter at all if "Episcopal vestments are often festooned with icons front and back, to this day"? It doesn't make any sense. You just create one convoluted argument after another until your counterpart gives up from frustration.

The fallacy of your insistence that I am wrong is right there in the section you've bolded.

And I'm still waiting for you to post an icon of any bishop-saint shown in the manner I've described.
Okay, go ahead and continue to not address it.

So this icon is not canonical because of the mandorla?



I had a hunch you were going to post that icon. The life of St Symeon clearly says that he was given the privilege of experiencing a taste of the Uncreated Light of God, as was St Seraphim of Sarov. In icons of these events in the lives of these saints, they are shown in supplication before Christ, showing their deference and humility before Him as their Lord and God.

By contrast, the mandorla surrounding Christ on His heavenly throne, or at His transfiguration on Mt Tabor, or when mystically present at His Mother's Dormition, or as a divine Child in icons of Mother of God of the Sign, need no such qualification. Christ is God, and He is Light, as so many hymns proclaim.
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« Reply #1802 on: July 17, 2014, 11:48:20 AM »

Our Lady of Jaundice:

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« Reply #1803 on: July 17, 2014, 12:09:17 PM »

On the contrary. Iconography is not photographic representation, but a depiction of spiritual transfiguration and heavenly realities.

All you've done is post pictures of episcopal vestments with icons on them. For your "argument" to hold water, show me an icon of a bishop-saint that shows a large motif of Christ or the Mother of God surrounded by a mandorla over his body. 

Yea, yea. You just repeated what you said in the last post with some more verbiage.

Again,


Quote
Why did you object and say the icon was supposedly on the back of the sakkos if it didn't really matter at all if "Episcopal vestments are often festooned with icons front and back, to this day"? It doesn't make any sense. You just create one convoluted argument after another until your counterpart gives up from frustration.

The fallacy of your insistence that I am wrong is right there in the section you've bolded.

And I'm still waiting for you to post an icon of any bishop-saint shown in the manner I've described.
Okay, go ahead and continue to not address it.

So this icon is not canonical because of the mandorla?



I had a hunch you were going to post that icon. The life of St Symeon clearly says that he was given the privilege of experiencing a taste of the Uncreated Light of God, as was St Seraphim of Sarov. In icons of these events in the lives of these saints, they are shown in supplication before Christ, showing their deference and humility before Him as their Lord and God.

By contrast, the mandorla surrounding Christ on His heavenly throne, or at His transfiguration on Mt Tabor, or when mystically present at His Mother's Dormition, or as a divine Child in icons of Mother of God of the Sign, need no such qualification. Christ is God, and He is Light, as so many hymns proclaim.
So if the Mother of God were shown in deference before Christ she could be depicted surrounded by His Energies?
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« Reply #1804 on: July 17, 2014, 12:27:31 PM »

Honestly, since the Theotokos is already bodily resurrected and fully deified in entering into the life of the Godhead, I don't see how depicting her as fully immersed in the energies of God is inaccurate in the slightest.
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« Reply #1805 on: July 17, 2014, 12:36:04 PM »

Honestly, since the Theotokos is already bodily resurrected and fully deified in entering into the life of the Godhead, I don't see how depicting her as fully immersed in the energies of God is inaccurate in the slightest.
That was my inclination, I'm trying to understand where LBK is coming from.
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« Reply #1806 on: July 17, 2014, 03:31:47 PM »

Quote
What makes jewelry so special?  

See above. If you can't see the difference between a pendant on a chain depicted on an icon which speaks of the episcopal rank of the saint, and an ancient established theological iconographic symbol, there's little more to say.

Mor, either you're genuinely seeking to learn, or you're taking this line of questioning as a mere intellectual exercise. Which is it?

I've already said (repeatedly and in multiple posts) that I'm seeking to learn and understand.

You tell me there's little to say if I can't see the difference between a pendant on a chain and "an ancient established theological iconographic symbol", but it is precisely the latter I'm trying to understand.  I'm asking questions in order to understand that symbol.  You don't say much about it other than to repeat that it is so and question the sincerity of my inquiry.  I find that disappointing.     
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« Reply #1807 on: July 17, 2014, 03:42:55 PM »

Unfortunately, your conclusion cannot be sustained. The incarnational imagery of the Mother of God of the Sign is ancient, distinct, unmistakeable, and definitive.
Neither of those comments honestly address my point that there's no qualitative difference between wearing an image of Mary or Jesus in one form vs another.

Quote
Moreover, the Mother of God should not be surrounded by a mandorla in icons. Mandorlas, a round or almond-shape blaze, represent the uncreated light and glory of God. The Virgin was graced by divinity in that she bore the Divine. She is indeed the most exalted being God ever created, or will ever create. It is for this reason that her icon is painted high above the altar in the apses of Orthodox churches. However, this fitting exaltation in no way implies any divinity on the part of the Virgin, she was human and mortal like any human being. She is as close to God as it is possible for a mortal but deified human being to be, but to show her surrounded by a blaze of uncreated light speaks of her being equal to God, which is simply untrue.

Part of the Christian life is to experience the uncreated energies just as the lives of St. Symeon and St. Seraphim (and any of their respective icons reflecting such with a mandorla) show. However, the Theotokos already fully does that, and not just as a temporary foretaste as experienced by St. Symeon and St. Seraphim. She is fully immersed in the uncreated divine energies, meaning a mandorla is hardly an issue because she truly is divine-by-grace. To use the words of St. Athanasius, she has already become "by grace what God is by nature."
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« Reply #1808 on: July 17, 2014, 03:47:37 PM »

Quote
When I stated that, to my knowledge, there was no iconographic standard on how to depict a native American, you referred me to icons of Aleuts and ethnic Chinese.  I didn't know what that had to do with Juan Diego, so I brought it back to that.  

St Peter the Aleut was a native American. San Juan Diego was one as well, though of a different nation. You still haven't explained the relevance of Juan Diego's ancestry in the discussion of the contentious image.

If Juan Diego's ancestry is irrelevant to how he should be depicted in an icon, why did you bring up Aleuts and Chinese?  It would've been better to say that one's earthly ancestry does not at all factor into the painting of icons.

St Peter the Aleut was a native American, yes, but that doesn't mean that it would be appropriate to depict Juan Diego (Mexican) as an Aleut (Alaskan).  Or is it?  And if it is appropriate to depict a native of Mexico as a native of Alaska, why wasn't St Peter the Aleut painted as a Russian instead of as an Aleut?  I'm not aware of any native American saints in the Orthodox Church other than St Peter the Aleut, so it's not like there was a standard "native American saint" depiction, was there?    

Quote
I'm sorry Mor, ISTM you're just arguing for the sake of it.

It may seem that way to you.  Sometimes it seems to me that you dismiss questions (and those who ask them) as irrelevant because you don't know the answers and refuse to admit it.  I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt that it is not so, and that we are simply not communicating well, even if you will not extend the same to me.  

So that we don't drag this out longer and more negatively, maybe you could help me in another way.  Do you have any academic or scholarly sources (e.g., books, articles) which discuss this particular "ancient established theological iconographic symbol"?  If I don't already have them in my library, I have access to some of the best libraries on this side of Earth, and I would be happy to spend some time there studying this issue.  

Thanks!  
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« Reply #1809 on: July 17, 2014, 10:42:57 PM »

Anyone familiar with the story of Guadalupe, who sees an image of a native wearing a garment with an image on it, and can read the inscription "Saint Juan Diego" can make the necessary connections.  None of those is "San Juan Diego, father of the Mother of God, miraculously conceived in his womb, pointing to her as the Savior and Redeemer".  To read all that into the image requires a considerable amount of ignorance of the event depicted and/or intentional misreading and misunderstanding.

Furthermore, it has been the convention in the west that saints are shown with their attributes, and in this case the image is his attribute.

I too am waiting for the guide that explains all these rules that keep getting invoked.
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« Reply #1810 on: July 17, 2014, 11:28:54 PM »

The Great Old One and the Holy Zoidberg demand proskynesis:





As does St. Toad:

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« Reply #1811 on: July 18, 2014, 01:30:35 AM »

Now I've seen everything.
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« Reply #1812 on: July 18, 2014, 01:32:18 AM »

Now I've seen everything.

Have you seen the rest of this thread?
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« Reply #1813 on: July 20, 2014, 01:26:01 AM »

She's got the whole world in her hands.

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« Reply #1814 on: July 20, 2014, 06:34:44 AM »

She's got the whole world in her hands.



Another McNichols classic. The Earth Mother, pointing to the planet as the way of salvation. Loverly.  Tongue Tongue Tongue

I'd also love to know the theological reason for the sickly mustard color of the Virgin's garment.
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« Reply #1815 on: July 20, 2014, 07:10:47 AM »

Another McNichols classic. The Earth Mother, pointing to the planet as the way of salvation. Loverly.  Tongue Tongue Tongue

I'd also love to know the theological reason for the sickly mustard color of the Virgin's garment.

Her skin is yellow, too.  Ewwww.
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« Reply #1816 on: July 20, 2014, 07:19:51 AM »

Another McNichols classic. The Earth Mother, pointing to the planet as the way of salvation. Loverly.  Tongue Tongue Tongue

I'd also love to know the theological reason for the sickly mustard color of the Virgin's garment.

Her skin is yellow, too.  Ewwww.

To be fair, many ancient icons used tones of bronze and olive in the modeling (shading) of faces and skin. However, these shades did not make their subjects look like "death warmed up".
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« Reply #1817 on: July 21, 2014, 09:52:36 AM »

Quote
When I stated that, to my knowledge, there was no iconographic standard on how to depict a native American, you referred me to icons of Aleuts and ethnic Chinese.  I didn't know what that had to do with Juan Diego, so I brought it back to that.  

St Peter the Aleut was a native American. San Juan Diego was one as well, though of a different nation. You still haven't explained the relevance of Juan Diego's ancestry in the discussion of the contentious image.

If Juan Diego's ancestry is irrelevant to how he should be depicted in an icon, why did you bring up Aleuts and Chinese?  It would've been better to say that one's earthly ancestry does not at all factor into the painting of icons.

St Peter the Aleut was a native American, yes, but that doesn't mean that it would be appropriate to depict Juan Diego (Mexican) as an Aleut (Alaskan).  Or is it?  And if it is appropriate to depict a native of Mexico as a native of Alaska, why wasn't St Peter the Aleut painted as a Russian instead of as an Aleut?  I'm not aware of any native American saints in the Orthodox Church other than St Peter the Aleut, so it's not like there was a standard "native American saint" depiction, was there?    

Quote
I'm sorry Mor, ISTM you're just arguing for the sake of it.

It may seem that way to you.  Sometimes it seems to me that you dismiss questions (and those who ask them) as irrelevant because you don't know the answers and refuse to admit it.  I choose to give you the benefit of the doubt that it is not so, and that we are simply not communicating well, even if you will not extend the same to me.  

So that we don't drag this out longer and more negatively, maybe you could help me in another way.  Do you have any academic or scholarly sources (e.g., books, articles) which discuss this particular "ancient established theological iconographic symbol"?  If I don't already have them in my library, I have access to some of the best libraries on this side of Earth, and I would be happy to spend some time there studying this issue.  

Thanks!  

Authors to look for: Leonid Ouspensky, Photios Kontoglou, Vladimir Lossky, Constantine Cavarnos. Whatever I have read from them is completely consistent: the mandorla is a motif expressing the divinity of Christ and His glory, whether as a Child over His mother's body in Of the Sign icons, or in His Transfiguration, or at His Mother's Dormition, or enthroned in majesty on His heavenly throne.

Moreover, aside from the works of these learned men, the hymns of the Church speak repeatedly of the Uncreated Light of divinity, whether in the hymns of the Transfiguration, or the many hymns to the Holy Trinity (triadika, troitsny), or Resurrectional hymns such as this one:

When You descended unto death, O Lord, who is immortal Life, You mortified Hades by the lightning flash of Your Divinity. Also when You raised the dead from the netherworld, all the Powers of the heavens were crying out: O Giver of life, Christ our God, glory be to You.

The motif of the Christ-child over the Mother of God's body does not need the words of iconologists to assert its incarnational nature. The very name of the icon explains it: Of the Sign/Znamenniye, after Isaiah 7:14. Simple, really.
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« Reply #1818 on: July 21, 2014, 10:01:31 AM »

She's got the whole world in her hands.



Not even gonna lie, I love the yellow mantle.
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« Reply #1819 on: July 21, 2014, 10:05:06 AM »

I think I would like it if it did not clash with her face. The two colors are very close, but off just enough to make it look really bad.
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« Reply #1820 on: July 21, 2014, 10:11:53 AM »

Yes. Her showing love for the world by hugging it is not the worst thing. That kind of yellow doesn't even belong in mustard or on taxis.
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« Reply #1821 on: July 21, 2014, 01:29:20 PM »

Authors to look for: Leonid Ouspensky, Photios Kontoglou, Vladimir Lossky, Constantine Cavarnos. Whatever I have read from them is completely consistent: the mandorla is a motif expressing the divinity of Christ and His glory, whether as a Child over His mother's body in Of the Sign icons, or in His Transfiguration, or at His Mother's Dormition, or enthroned in majesty on His heavenly throne.

Moreover, aside from the works of these learned men, the hymns of the Church speak repeatedly of the Uncreated Light of divinity, whether in the hymns of the Transfiguration, or the many hymns to the Holy Trinity (triadika, troitsny), or Resurrectional hymns such as this one:

When You descended unto death, O Lord, who is immortal Life, You mortified Hades by the lightning flash of Your Divinity. Also when You raised the dead from the netherworld, all the Powers of the heavens were crying out: O Giver of life, Christ our God, glory be to You.

Thanks for the authors.  Any particular works I should consult? 

One thing I'm not so sure about is when we began to discuss mandorlas. 

Quote
The motif of the Christ-child over the Mother of God's body does not need the words of iconologists to assert its incarnational nature. The very name of the icon explains it: Of the Sign/Znamenniye, after Isaiah 7:14. Simple, really.

I don't deny this at all, I agree it is simple.  What I'm not so sure about is the claim that any image where one person is depicted bearing an image of another person on their chest/torso/lap or in their arms automatically indicates the miraculous conception of a divine person in their womb, even when the person is male. 
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« Reply #1822 on: July 21, 2014, 01:30:22 PM »

She's got the whole world in her hands.



Not even gonna lie, I love the yellow mantle.

I do too.  I have an icon at home where she's wearing yellow. 
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« Reply #1823 on: July 21, 2014, 03:01:51 PM »

Found this on an unrelated search for an icon of the protection of the Mother of God. Didn't remember if it had made it here before or not.

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« Reply #1824 on: July 21, 2014, 03:03:33 PM »

I would totally venerate that.
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« Reply #1825 on: July 21, 2014, 07:20:46 PM »

I would totally venerate that.

You shouldn't:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47878.msg929320.html#msg929320 (from page 15 of this thread)

Try this one on for size- granted, this one is not Schlock, just nice-looking, but I'd prefer to run it through LBK before putting this icon on my wall.



http://theophilia.deviantart.com/art/The-Theotokos-of-Jerusalem-349985068

I've seen Theophilia's DA before, and I must say that I like her(?) stuff.

With that particular icon, I think the biggest problem with it is the deficient use of "I AM" in the halo. Maybe also the improper use of colors for the clothes. Although LBK might see something else.

LBK indeed sees something else. More than one something in fact. The "I AM" in the halo is the least of its problems.

The woman looks like a Bratz doll (though she does have a nose), all gooey-eyed with a bit of "come hither". The child is utterly devoid of any sense of being all-knowing, there is not a scrap of divine majesty in him. He's a generic Gerber Baby. Or a kewpie doll. I can almost hear him saying "goo!"

Sentimental, self-indulgent schlock. Worthless as an icon.
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« Reply #1826 on: July 21, 2014, 07:22:42 PM »

Quote
I can almost hear him saying "goo!"
No, anything but that!  Shocked


 Smiley

Not a fan of that one myself.
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« Reply #1827 on: July 21, 2014, 09:28:42 PM »

I am very sorry, but he bears a striking resemblance to Baby Vladimir, the Putin.
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« Reply #1828 on: Yesterday at 12:47:48 AM »

I am very sorry, but he bears a striking resemblance to Baby Vladimir, the Putin.

You're right!

Umm, should I thank you for pointing that out?  Shocked  Tongue Wink laugh
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Jurisdiction: We are all uncanonical now.
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« Reply #1829 on: Yesterday at 11:16:54 AM »

I am very sorry, but he bears a striking resemblance to Baby Vladimir, the Putin.

You're right!

Umm, should I thank you for pointing that out?  Shocked  Tongue Wink laugh
Perhaps it can be placed in the Chapel of Russia's Resurrection.
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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL ORTHODOX CHURCH
kelly
God save Ukraine and Russia
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Jurisdiction: Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
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« Reply #1830 on: Yesterday at 11:18:57 AM »

I am very sorry, but he bears a striking resemblance to Baby Vladimir, the Putin.

You're right!

Umm, should I thank you for pointing that out?  Shocked  Tongue Wink laugh
Perhaps it can be placed in the Chapel of Russia's Resurrection.

Well isn't that special.
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Remove the plank of lust from your own eye and you will be able to clearly see the speck of backflesh through the buttonhole of another.
TheTrisagion
Armed Feline rider of Flaming Unicorns
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Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 6,939



« Reply #1831 on: Yesterday at 11:21:20 AM »

I am very sorry, but he bears a striking resemblance to Baby Vladimir, the Putin.

You're right!

Umm, should I thank you for pointing that out?  Shocked  Tongue Wink laugh
Perhaps it can be placed in the Chapel of Russia's Resurrection.
Hey, they have head coverings. That means they are legit.  Wink

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Have you considered the possibility that your face is an ad hominem?
Somebody just went all Jack Chick up in here.
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