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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #270 on: December 21, 2012, 01:31:42 AM » |
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Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow.
Oh, yes, especially the Gerber Baby Jesus sitting in the old man's lap in the cupola. What a crying shame that the original artwork was reproduced when the cathedral was rebuilt! What a missed opportunity to fill it with the finest iconography and make it the treasure it deserved to be!   There's even an "icon" of St Juliana Olshanskaya with her right hand raised in blessing, with the fingers arranged in the way priests bless. Unbelievable.
I've heard abbesses bless with their fingers arranged that way. Everyone, including the priests if I'm not mistaken, used to bless themselves and otherse in the same manner when they still used the two-finger sign of the Cross. Maybe abbesses don't bless in icons, though. Abbesses with the authority to bless do so with their fingers arranged as one would to cross oneself. The IC-XC arrangement is restricted to male clergy of the rank of priest and above. St Juliana Olshanskaya was not an abbess. She was a girl of noble birth, and died at the age of sixteen. Did the IC-XC arrangement come to Russia with the three-fingered sign of the cross? |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Eastern Mind
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« Reply #271 on: December 24, 2012, 07:45:42 PM » |
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So would this be considered schlock? It's a "Young Virgin Mary."  I actually rather like this, to be honest. I don't think it's an icon, though. |
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LBK
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« Reply #272 on: December 24, 2012, 09:31:06 PM » |
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So would this be considered schlock? It's a "Young Virgin Mary." I actually rather like this, to be honest. I don't think it's an icon, though. If you've been immersed in the whys and wherefores of iconography for as long as I have, you'll know why I wrote what I wrote about it. Personally, this image, while well-intended, doesn't even qualify as good religious art, in the way that, say, Michelangelo's Pieta or Tintoretto's Crucifixion are. This image of the little Mary is simply sentimental and saccharine, in no way expressive of the magnitude of the mystery in which she willingly participated. |
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #273 on: December 24, 2012, 09:39:23 PM » |
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So would this be considered schlock? It's a "Young Virgin Mary." I actually rather like this, to be honest. I don't think it's an icon, though. If you've been immersed in the whys and wherefores of iconography for as long as I have, you'll know why I wrote what I wrote about it. Personally, this image, while well-intended, doesn't even qualify as good religious art, in the way that, say, Michelangelo's Pieta or Tintoretto's Crucifixion are. This image of the little Mary is simply sentimental and saccharine, in no way expressive of the magnitude of the mystery in which she willingly participated. It also strikes me as somewhat symbolically blasphemous--albeit probably unintentional. Even in the Orthodox icons I've seen of the Entrance of the Mother of God into the Temple, where Our Lady is depicted as the three-year-old girl she was at the time, she is still depicted wearing the blue undergarment covered by the red outergarment. The blue symbolizes humanity, the red divinity. She was human and took on divinity in that she gave birth to the second person of the Trinity, Christ God. Icons of Christ show him with the red undergarment and blue outergarment, in that he was God and took on humanity in the Incarnation. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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FatherGiryus
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« Reply #274 on: December 24, 2012, 10:05:10 PM » |
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Hold on to your pemmican...
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Eastern Mind
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« Reply #275 on: December 24, 2012, 10:09:20 PM » |
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While I can't top that, I did find this:  Where to start... |
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« Last Edit: December 24, 2012, 10:12:38 PM by Eastern Mind »
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #276 on: December 24, 2012, 10:26:19 PM » |
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While I can't top that, I did find this: Where to start... If only it were more in the iconographic style..NOT. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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LBK
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« Reply #278 on: December 24, 2012, 10:34:47 PM » |
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While I can't top that, I did find this: Where to start... If only it were more in the iconographic style..NOT. Because it is NOT in an iconographic style, it's easier to dismiss. Far more subversive and dangerous are images painted in iconographic styles, but are not icons in any way due to their content. See my post above. |
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FatherGiryus
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« Reply #279 on: December 25, 2012, 12:04:41 AM » |
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That thing drips with dumb...
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #280 on: December 25, 2012, 01:02:07 AM » |
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That thing drips with dumb... The multitude of Celtic Orthodox saints will be having words with the artist and those who accept the image. They may be brief like their prayers, but they will be to the point. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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LBK
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« Reply #281 on: December 25, 2012, 01:41:24 AM » |
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That thing drips with dumb... "Drips with dumb" doesn't end there. Here's the idiotic, syncretist spiel about it from the artist: From ancient times human beings have responded to experiences with the divine with works of art. They have used metaphor and image to
describe what they have “seen.” Individual expressions of personal experiences of the divine have often challenged rigid religious traditions. Religious institutions have mistrusted the images of the ancients as well as the images of the mystics.
The spiritual genius of many ethnic groups through the centuries has been responsible for profound images of faith. The drawings on the walls of prehistoric caves and early sculpture are powerful witnesses to highly developed spiritual as well as artistic sentiments of peoples who lived centuries before the birth of the traditional religions of the East and West.
Native Americans, Africans, Asians, as well as early Europeans saw their religious traditions and images cast aside in favour of the Christian images current at the time. Treasures of faith were lost, as cultures were systematically destroyed by colonists and conquerors. It is time to recover discarded religious treasures.
A beautiful image from ancient Celtic religious experience was God as a trinity of women. The Maiden gave birth to creation. The Mother nurtured and protected it, and the Crone brought it wisely to its end. A raven accompanied the Crone as a symbol of life and death: though it ate dead things, it flew high into the heavens. In this icon the three women are depicted from different races to extend the Celtic image to a more global perspective. The snake was another sacred feminine image. It represented life, fertility, and rejuvenation. Devouring its own tail, it represented immortality.
Feminine images have suffered greatly in the west. Women will continue to suffer oppression in any religious society until their images have been reclaimed and honored. These feminine insights can help to present a new healing perspective on the problems that face our modern world.
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Eastern Mind
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« Reply #282 on: December 25, 2012, 08:41:25 AM » |
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Maiden? Mother? Crone?
Gah! I just can't even with this anymore <_<
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #283 on: December 25, 2012, 12:20:57 PM » |
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Oh my Lord. I almost wish LBK would come out with a book of these bad icons. I just hope it wouldn't give some unfortunate people even more bad ideas.  |
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Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
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Michał Kalina
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« Reply #284 on: December 25, 2012, 12:36:26 PM » |
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Having said that, the one which is just passable is the last one of the female saint; the blue halo around the bishop-saint makes no sense at all (if gold is unavailable, then a pale color reminiscent of light can be chosen - the artist used a golden shde for the crosses on the omophorion, so why didn't he use the same in the halo?);
I'm reading a book illustrated with a fresco of Transfiguration from XIIth century and some halos in there are blue and some - golden. |
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« Last Edit: December 25, 2012, 01:02:02 PM by Michał Kalina »
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no longer posting here
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LBK
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« Reply #285 on: December 25, 2012, 03:53:17 PM » |
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Oh my Lord. I almost wish LBK would come out with a book of these bad icons. I just hope it wouldn't give some unfortunate people even more bad ideas. I've been working on it for a few years. Hope to publish in the New Year. |
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biro
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Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου
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« Reply #286 on: December 25, 2012, 06:47:05 PM » |
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Oh my Lord. I almost wish LBK would come out with a book of these bad icons. I just hope it wouldn't give some unfortunate people even more bad ideas. I've been working on it for a few years. Hope to publish in the New Year. Wonderful! I will buy a copy.  |
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Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
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Eastern Mind
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« Reply #287 on: January 03, 2013, 02:39:10 PM » |
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Here is one of an Arab Jesus  |
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sheenj
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« Reply #288 on: January 08, 2013, 08:35:35 PM » |
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Here is one of an Arab Jesus Actually I think that's Aramaic. Would this image be considered schlock? It's titled " Christ God the Geometer"  |
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 08:36:40 PM by sheenj »
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Eastern Mind
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« Reply #289 on: January 08, 2013, 08:45:59 PM » |
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The eyes on that are scary.
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 08:46:28 PM by Eastern Mind »
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pmpn8rGPT
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Proof that Russia won the Space Race.
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« Reply #290 on: January 08, 2013, 09:45:45 PM » |
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Anyone who dislikes good ole Robby is going to love this   |
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"Tomorrow, I shall no longer be here."
-Nostradamus's last words.
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LBK
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« Reply #291 on: January 08, 2013, 09:56:57 PM » |
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Would this image be considered schlock? It's titled " Christ God the Geometer" It's not quite schlock, though the eyes are pretty creepy. The idea of God the Geometer has a scriptural basis, such as these quotes: Isaiah 40:12: Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, measured heaven with a span and calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales and the hills in a balance?? Isaiah 48:13: Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has spanned the heavens; when I call to them,
they stand up together.Job 38: 4-6: “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone? |
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 10:02:31 PM by LBK »
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LBK
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« Reply #292 on: January 08, 2013, 10:01:56 PM » |
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Anyone who dislikes good ole Robby is going to love this Oh, he should have been taken to the cleaners on charges of plagiarism and breach of copyright. It also violates a central principle of iconography: that the icon represents the prototype, i.e. the actual person who is the subject of the icon. St Mary Magdalene was not a late 20th-century Aghan girl, but a first-century Jewish woman from Magdala. |
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Eastern Mind
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« Reply #293 on: January 08, 2013, 10:03:11 PM » |
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 Because it depicts God the Father, it would be schlock, right? Also, the Holy Spirit is a dove, and can only be depicted as a dove during the Baptism, right? I never understood why, but for whatever reason, some like to portray God the Father as an old man with a white beard. |
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LBK
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« Reply #294 on: January 08, 2013, 10:10:55 PM » |
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Because it depicts God the Father, it would be schlock, right? Also, the Holy Spirit is a dove, and can only be depicted as a dove during the Baptism, right? I never understood why, but for whatever reason, some like to portray God the Father as an old man with a white beard. This is the most well-known uncanonical image, and, sadly, despite the wealth of patristic, liturgical, conciliar and doctrinal evidence denouncing it, it is still being painted, for reasons only known to the painters.  And, in the example posted, painted not very well. |
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« Last Edit: January 08, 2013, 10:12:18 PM by LBK »
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Shanghaiski
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« Reply #295 on: January 09, 2013, 12:15:14 AM » |
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Because it depicts God the Father, it would be schlock, right? Also, the Holy Spirit is a dove, and can only be depicted as a dove during the Baptism, right? I never understood why, but for whatever reason, some like to portray God the Father as an old man with a white beard. Neither Holy, nor Byzantine, nor Icons. Needs name change. |
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
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Eastern Mind
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« Reply #297 on: January 09, 2013, 10:30:51 AM » |
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Does anyone here happen to know why so many "icons" of the Father have that triangle around His head?
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biro
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« Reply #298 on: January 09, 2013, 02:19:28 PM » |
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Does anyone here happen to know why so many "icons" of the Father have that triangle around His head?
Maybe it signifies the Trinity. Just a guess. |
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Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
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domNoah
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« Reply #299 on: January 10, 2013, 10:19:48 PM » |
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They should be burned and all digital copies destroyed.
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LBK
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« Reply #300 on: January 10, 2013, 10:47:22 PM » |
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They should be burned and all digital copies destroyed.
Indeed, but close to impossible to actually achieve.  |
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Dominika
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St. Luke, pray for us!
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« Reply #301 on: January 15, 2013, 05:58:53 PM » |
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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria
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FatherGiryus
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« Reply #302 on: January 15, 2013, 07:38:44 PM » |
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Dominika
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St. Luke, pray for us!
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« Reply #303 on: January 15, 2013, 07:53:46 PM » |
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Pray for persecuted Christians, especially in Serbian Kosovo and Raška, Egypt and Syria
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Agabus
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« Reply #304 on: January 15, 2013, 09:48:55 PM » |
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Protection of the Theotokos of the Potamac?  Our Lady of Washington, DC Troparion Steadfast protectress of Christians, and constant advocate before the Creator: do not despise the cry of us sinners, but in thy goodness come speedily to help us who call on thee in faith. Hasten to hear our petitions and to intercede for us, O Theotokos, for thou dost always protect those who honor thee. This icon shows the Mother of God holding a veil of protection over Washington, DC. You can see the Potomac, the Capitol, the White House, the Lincoln, Washington & Jefferson Memorials, and the Smithsonian. But, front and center is the St. Nicholas Orthodox Cathedral. This icon calls us to prayer to ask for the Theotokos' intercession for our nation. The Scriptures tell us that military might is not the true measure of a nation, and it is ultimately useless in its defense. Psalm 20 follows (Remember that "Zion" is a metaphor for the Virgin Mary): The LORD hear thee in the day of trouble; the name of the God of Jacob defend thee; Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion; Remember all thy offerings, and accept thy burnt sacrifice; Selah. Grant thee according to thine own heart, and fulfil all thy counsel. We will rejoice in thy salvation, and in the name of our God we will set up our banners: the LORD fulfil all thy petitions. Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand. Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They are brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call. This icon is by the hand of Nadine Kastelan Thola. Source. |
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Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.
THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL ORTHODOX CHURCH
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LBK
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« Reply #305 on: January 15, 2013, 10:04:41 PM » |
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The style and content strongly suggests Ukrainian Eastern Catholic. The Mother of God bears no stars of ever-virginity at all on her head and shoulders.  Moreover, I find the photorealism and linear perspective of the buildings and other structures and features against the more conventionally abstracted human figures quite jarring. And what's with the disembodied arm with something orange in its hand coming out of the border at center-right, over the group of three people over the flyover?  |
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LBK
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« Reply #307 on: January 15, 2013, 10:35:33 PM » |
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Thanks for the high-res link. The orange thing is a basketball, the three people on the motorway are musicians. The Serbian connection makes sense - the range of colors used, their high saturation, the impressionistic, stippled artistic effects such as for clouds, vegetation and earth, and the eyes in the larger figures (all much more clearly visible in the large image) are straight out of the "school" of Fr Stamatios Skliris, who is popular among Serbs, and whom I've taken to task earlier in this thread. |
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88Devin12
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« Reply #308 on: January 16, 2013, 12:50:24 PM » |
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I don't think that icon is schlock, maybe some of the elements within it could be excluded, but overall it seems fine.
Someone already posted one for DC, and I've seen one for Athens/Piraeus. Fr. Josiah Trenham has one in his Church for Riverside, CA.
It isn't a new thing.
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sheenj
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« Reply #309 on: January 16, 2013, 12:53:08 PM » |
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Is the "Our Lady" moniker kosher though?
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88Devin12
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« Reply #310 on: January 16, 2013, 01:00:58 PM » |
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Is the "Our Lady" moniker kosher though?
Why wouldn't it be? "Our Most-Holy Lady Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary" (I know, it's slightly different but still...) |
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Alpo
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« Reply #311 on: January 16, 2013, 01:19:03 PM » |
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Is the "Our Lady" moniker kosher though?
Why wouldn't it be? Because it's Latin. |
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The great thing about this forum is that no matter what you say in your message you will always get a polite, informative reply. A reply that is really helpful.
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sheenj
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« Reply #312 on: January 16, 2013, 01:24:57 PM » |
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I just asked because I've never heard it used in an Orthodox setting so it struck me as odd.
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biro
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« Reply #313 on: January 16, 2013, 06:51:06 PM » |
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I just asked because I've never heard it used in an Orthodox setting so it struck me as odd.
You've never been to a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? Or Orthros in an Eastern Orthodox church? The phrase "Calling to mind our most blessed and glorious Lady the Theotokos..." occurs about a million times. |
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Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be? Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied. http://spcasuncoast.org/ |
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sheenj
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« Reply #314 on: January 16, 2013, 07:23:35 PM » |
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I just asked because I've never heard it used in an Orthodox setting so it struck me as odd.
You've never been to a Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom? Or Orthros in an Eastern Orthodox church? The phrase "Calling to mind our most blessed and glorious Lady the Theotokos..." occurs about a million times. I've been to a Coptic church a few times, but other than that, it's been all Indian Orthodox for me. |
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