Topic: Schlock Icons

[biro]

and St Joseph the Betrothed holding the Christ-child

Wait, is this bad? St. Joseph is my patron, so a friend of mine sent me an icon of St. Joseph holding the Christ-child that he bought at St. Anthony's monastery in Arizona. St. Anthony's is definitely Orthodox, as is my friend, so it never crossed my mind that there could be something wrong with it. It looks almost exactly like this one, for clarification:

Some people want to retroactively minimize St. Joseph, because they don't want to be confused with the Roman Catholics, whose veneration of him (as 'St. Joseph the Worker') is quite a bit more prominent. You must jump in front of a bus rather than be confused with a Roman Catholic.

[William]

and St Joseph the Betrothed holding the Christ-child

Wait, is this bad? St. Joseph is my patron, so a friend of mine sent me an icon of St. Joseph holding the Christ-child that he bought at St. Anthony's monastery in Arizona. St. Anthony's is definitely Orthodox, as is my friend, so it never crossed my mind that there could be something wrong with it. It looks almost exactly like this one, for clarification:

Some people want to retroactively minimize St. Joseph, because they don't want to be confused with the Roman Catholics, whose veneration of him (as 'St. Joseph the Worker') is quite a bit more prominent. You must jump in front of a bus rather than be confused with a Roman Catholic.

[Shiny]

And isn't that icon wrong theologically? The one of St. Joseph holding Christ.

[LBK]

So it is no surprise to see St Leo the Great wearing the papal triple tiara, even though it would not have existed in St Leo's time.

Really?

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread? 

[LBK]

And isn't that icon wrong theologically? The one of St. Joseph holding Christ.

Yes, it is, I'm sorry to say.

[Dan the Man]

And isn't that icon wrong theologically? The one of St. Joseph holding Christ.

Yes, it is, I'm sorry to say.

Well that answers my question then. Now what do I do?

[LBK]

And isn't that icon wrong theologically? The one of St. Joseph holding Christ.

Yes, it is, I'm sorry to say.

Well that answers my question then. Now what do I do?

You could donate it to an RC friend or church, I suppose. It would fit in with their theology and doctrine.

[sheenj]

So it is no surprise to see St Leo the Great wearing the papal triple tiara, even though it would not have existed in St Leo's time.

Really?

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread? 

I think he's referring to the omophor, which could be seen as an anachronism.

Edit: according to the Catholic Encyclopedia at least.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Pallium

[Alpo]

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread?  

Both this and St. Leo's icon contain anachronistic vestments.

Is there something wrong with St. Leo's icon besides vestments?

[LBK]

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread?  

Both this and St. Leo's icon contain anachronistic vestments.

Is there something wrong with St. Leo's icon besides vestments?

The triple crown, which dates in its earliest form from the time the Roman papacy was beginning to grow in temporal power, speaks not of Orthodoxy, but of post-schism Rome, or, at least, a Rome soon to schism from Orthodoxy. St James in Byzantine vestments has no such overtones, as the Church was undivided during his time.

[Jason.Wike]

Suddenly periodic wiping of the historical record of art or writings that are just bad doesn't seem wrong. Based on the way we do things are now, if someone in 500 years finds just one of these things they're going to think everyone of our time period was into this weird crap.

[mike]

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread?  

Both this and St. Leo's icon contain anachronistic vestments.

Is there something wrong with St. Leo's icon besides vestments?

The triple crown, which dates in its earliest form from the time the Roman papacy was beginning to grow in temporal power, speaks not of Orthodoxy, but of post-schism Rome, or, at least, a Rome soon to schism from Orthodoxy. St James in Byzantine vestments has no such overtones, as the Church was undivided during his time.

"St. James painted with an omophorion - good because we did it. St. Leo painted with a tiara - bad because evil Papists did it."

I've expected better than that from you.

[LBK]

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread?  

Both this and St. Leo's icon contain anachronistic vestments.

Is there something wrong with St. Leo's icon besides vestments?

The triple crown, which dates in its earliest form from the time the Roman papacy was beginning to grow in temporal power, speaks not of Orthodoxy, but of post-schism Rome, or, at least, a Rome soon to schism from Orthodoxy. St James in Byzantine vestments has no such overtones, as the Church was undivided during his time.

"St. James painted with an omophorion - good because we did it. St. Leo painted with a tiara - bad because evil Papists did it."

I've expected better than that from you.

I base my posts on iconography on the testimony of the Church through her iconographic record and traditions. The consistent tradition for the iconographic portrayal of early bishop-saints is to show them bare-headed (as the mitre had not come into use prior to the fall of Constantinople), vested in phelonion and omophorion, and holding a Gospel book. The sakkos replaced the phelonion in about the twelfth century.

[Alpo]

I base my posts on iconography on the testimony of the Church through her iconographic record and traditions. The consistent tradition of the Byzantien churches for the iconographic portrayal of early bishop-saints is to show them bare-headed (as the mitre had not come into use prior to the fall of Constantinople), vested in phelonion and omophorion, and holding a Gospel book. The sakkos replaced the phelonion in about the twelfth century.

Fixed. I'm not entirely comfortable with the Leo's vestments on that icon/painting either but there's more to Orthodoxy than just Greek Orthodoxy.

[mike]

Trains and cars? Well I raise you one St. Nicholas steering a boat!



Is this schlock?

You bet it's schlock! It's one thing to recognize St Nicholas of Myra as patron and protector of mariners and fishermen, but this is just disrespectful, cartoonish rubbish.

It's by the Orthodox priest who painted the trippy St Andrew and the modernist "Resurrection" I commented on earlier. I call this piece "St Nick the Sailor Man". I'd love to know what patristic or liturgical precedent he used to justify paint the crosses on the saint's omophorion in the shape of propellers .... The next step would be the troparion and kontakion to St Nicholas sung in sea-shanty style during Liturgy.  

And what's with the seagulls looking for lunch?? Any ideas, folks?

[Alpo]

^Please tell me that is photoshopped.

[mike]

^Please tell me that is photoshopped.

I've posted in Picture of a day thread a better caption of that frescoe. I don't want to seek for it know. It's also on OrthPhoto.net.

[Cyrillic]

I like the St. Nicholas painting.

[sheenj]

painting

Oh, you!

[William]

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread?  

Both this and St. Leo's icon contain anachronistic vestments.

Is there something wrong with St. Leo's icon besides vestments?

The triple crown, which dates in its earliest form from the time the Roman papacy was beginning to grow in temporal power, speaks not of Orthodoxy, but of post-schism Rome, or, at least, a Rome soon to schism from Orthodoxy. St James in Byzantine vestments has no such overtones, as the Church was undivided during his time.

"St. James painted with an omophorion - good because we did it. St. Leo painted with a tiara - bad because evil Papists did it."

I've expected better than that from you.

Why does LBK even try? 

[LBK]

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread?  

Both this and St. Leo's icon contain anachronistic vestments.

Is there something wrong with St. Leo's icon besides vestments?

The triple crown, which dates in its earliest form from the time the Roman papacy was beginning to grow in temporal power, speaks not of Orthodoxy, but of post-schism Rome, or, at least, a Rome soon to schism from Orthodoxy. St James in Byzantine vestments has no such overtones, as the Church was undivided during his time.

"St. James painted with an omophorion - good because we did it. St. Leo painted with a tiara - bad because evil Papists did it."

I've expected better than that from you.

Why does LBK even try? 

Because LBK knows that there are plenty of other folks out there who are genuinely interested and want to learn more about the priceless treasure that is iconography.   

[sheenj]

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread?  

Both this and St. Leo's icon contain anachronistic vestments.

Is there something wrong with St. Leo's icon besides vestments?

The triple crown, which dates in its earliest form from the time the Roman papacy was beginning to grow in temporal power, speaks not of Orthodoxy, but of post-schism Rome, or, at least, a Rome soon to schism from Orthodoxy. St James in Byzantine vestments has no such overtones, as the Church was undivided during his time.

"St. James painted with an omophorion - good because we did it. St. Leo painted with a tiara - bad because evil Papists did it."

I've expected better than that from you.

Why does LBK even try? 

Because LBK knows that there are plenty of other folks out there who are genuinely interested and want to learn more about the priceless treasure that is iconography.   

I'm still confused about the implications of the Tiara though. If the Tiara was used by Orthodox Popes, then what is the problem with displaying Pope Leo with one?

[Eastern Mind]

Suddenly periodic wiping of the historical record of art or writings that are just bad doesn't seem wrong. Based on the way we do things are now, if someone in 500 years finds just one of these things they're going to think everyone of our time period was into this weird crap.

Gah. Jesus isn't the horned god of wicca <_< This is just ghastly.

[Shanghaiski]

Umm, Michal, what has the icon of St James, Brother of the Lord, have to do with the thread?  

Both this and St. Leo's icon contain anachronistic vestments.

Is there something wrong with St. Leo's icon besides vestments?

The triple crown, which dates in its earliest form from the time the Roman papacy was beginning to grow in temporal power, speaks not of Orthodoxy, but of post-schism Rome, or, at least, a Rome soon to schism from Orthodoxy. St James in Byzantine vestments has no such overtones, as the Church was undivided during his time.

"St. James painted with an omophorion - good because we did it. St. Leo painted with a tiara - bad because evil Papists did it."

I've expected better than that from you.

Why does LBK even try? 

Because LBK knows that there are plenty of other folks out there who are genuinely interested and want to learn more about the priceless treasure that is iconography.   

I'm still confused about the implications of the Tiara though. If the Tiara was used by Orthodox Popes, then what is the problem with displaying Pope Leo with one?

To my knowledge, the triple tiara was not used until after the schism. That there are images of pre-schism popes with the triple tiara dates them as post-schism images and says nothing of the pre-schism popes whatever.

[Nephi]

Is the triple tiara more decorative/fashion, or does it actually symbolize theology?

[Shanghaiski]

Is the triple tiara more decorative/fashion, or does it actually symbolize theology?

It is symbolic of the new papacy's (post-schism/post Gregory VII, specifically) overlordship of the secular and spiritual worlds, of heaven (Peter has the keys), purgatory, and earth (being able to excuse nobles from their oaths of allegiance to sovereigns).

[Nephi]

It is symbolic of the new papacy's (post-schism/post Gregory VII, specifically) overlordship of the secular and spiritual worlds, of heaven (Peter has the keys), purgatory, and earth (being able to excuse nobles from their oaths of allegiance to sovereigns).

Then I can definitely see why it would be objectionable in an icon. Thank you.

[Cyrillic]

Is the triple tiara more decorative/fashion, or does it actually symbolize theology?

I thought it stood for universal jurisdiction, patriarchate of the west and bishop of Rome. Three layers of authority.

[Eastern Mind]

Is that John Coltrane?


Why are their Thrones underneath his feet?

[LBK]

Is that John Coltrane?


Why are their Thrones underneath his feet?

Yes, that is supposed to be "Saint" John Coltrane. Yes, the red winged things are supposed to be cherubim, as seen in icons of Christ in Majesty. The red winged things are also in the shape of vinyl records, according to the artist who painted this schlock.

[Eastern Mind]

Is that John Coltrane?


Why are their Thrones underneath his feet?

Yes, that is supposed to be "Saint" John Coltrane. Yes, the red winged things are supposed to be cherubim, as seen in icons of Christ in Majesty. The red winged things are also in the shape of vinyl records, according to the artist who painted this schlock.

Ah, I didn't catch the record thing.

What a stupid icon.

[LBK]

Is that John Coltrane?


Why are their Thrones underneath his feet?

Yes, that is supposed to be "Saint" John Coltrane. Yes, the red winged things are supposed to be cherubim, as seen in icons of Christ in Majesty. The red winged things are also in the shape of vinyl records, according to the artist who painted this schlock.

Ah, I didn't catch the record thing.

What a stupid icon waste of time and paint.

Fixed it for ya.  

.... and the artist has also spelled the "saint's" name wrong. There should be two Ns in it.  

[Eastern Mind]

Fixed it for ya

LOL. Nice 

[LBK]

Fixed it for ya

LOL. Nice 

We aim to please. 

[Shanghaiski]

Is that John Coltrane?


Why are their Thrones underneath his feet?

Yes, that is supposed to be "Saint" John Coltrane. Yes, the red winged things are supposed to be cherubim, as seen in icons of Christ in Majesty. The red winged things are also in the shape of vinyl records, according to the artist who painted this schlock.

Ah, I didn't catch the record thing.

What a stupid icon waste of time and paint.

Fixed it for ya.  

.... and the artist has also spelled the "saint's" name wrong. There should be two Ns in it.  

Years ago, I went to the Athenian Candle Company in Chicago, which sold Monastery Icons and evil spirit spray (either evil spirit in a can or evil spirit repellant--I couldn't tell), and asked a woman who worked there if the Greek name for John was "Ioannos" or "Ioannis" since I didn't know any Greek at the time, and she said, "Whatever you want it to be."

[OrthoMEX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76ruZ0IqMo The inside of st gregory of nyssa episcopal church Schlock galore

[LBK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76ruZ0IqMo The inside of st gregory of nyssa episcopal church Schlock galore

IIRC I posted some of these images a while back. 

[Eastern Mind]

evil spirit spray

That sounds like something TBN would try to sell. Sadly, I'm sure people would buy it.

[Ioannis Climacus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76ruZ0IqMo The inside of st gregory of nyssa episcopal church Schlock galore

It looks like one giant, historical can-can.

[biro]

I thought the same thing. 

[Jason.Wike]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76ruZ0IqMo The inside of st gregory of nyssa episcopal church Schlock galore

Shlock like that is just fuel for the Islamists. Who could really argue if they said it should be destroyed? What would they say? "Its a great piece of art"?

[Shanghaiski]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76ruZ0IqMo The inside of st gregory of nyssa episcopal church Schlock galore

Shlock like that is just fuel for the Islamists. Who could really argue if they said it should be destroyed? What would they say? "Its a great piece of art"?

Do Islamists need fuel? Only if they're tied to stakes! (It was a sick joke, but funny.)

[LBK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r76ruZ0IqMo The inside of st gregory of nyssa episcopal church Schlock galore

IIRC I posted some of these images a while back.  

Yup, just as I thought. Here's the post:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47878.msg834397.html#msg834397

[Shanghaiski]

Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow.

Oh, yes, especially the Gerber Baby Jesus sitting in the old man's lap in the cupola. What a crying shame that the original artwork was reproduced when the cathedral was rebuilt! What a missed opportunity to fill it with the finest iconography and make it the treasure it deserved to be!  

There's even an "icon" of St Juliana Olshanskaya with her right hand raised in blessing, with the fingers arranged in the way priests bless. Unbelievable.

I've heard abbesses bless with their fingers arranged that way. Everyone, including the priests if I'm not mistaken, used to bless themselves and otherse in the same manner when they still used the two-finger sign of the Cross. Maybe abbesses don't bless in icons, though.

[LBK]

Cathedral of Christ the Saviour in Moscow.

Oh, yes, especially the Gerber Baby Jesus sitting in the old man's lap in the cupola. What a crying shame that the original artwork was reproduced when the cathedral was rebuilt! What a missed opportunity to fill it with the finest iconography and make it the treasure it deserved to be!  

There's even an "icon" of St Juliana Olshanskaya with her right hand raised in blessing, with the fingers arranged in the way priests bless. Unbelievable.

I've heard abbesses bless with their fingers arranged that way. Everyone, including the priests if I'm not mistaken, used to bless themselves and otherse in the same manner when they still used the two-finger sign of the Cross. Maybe abbesses don't bless in icons, though.

Abbesses with the authority to bless do so with their fingers arranged as one would to cross oneself. The IC-XC arrangement is restricted to male clergy of the rank of priest and above.

St Juliana Olshanskaya was not an abbess. She was a girl of noble birth, and died at the age of sixteen.