Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 118978 times)

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Offline mike

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #945 on: September 15, 2013, 03:13:37 AM »
There's a world of difference between ingratiating yourself by having yourself and your family painted into an icon (all of whom are alive), and showing two saints (Justinian the Great and Constantine the Great) supplicating before Christ.

If you can't tell the difference between deference and self-promotion ....

Justinian was alive when Hagia Sophia was being built. There is also a handful of others.

Offline Shiny

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #946 on: September 15, 2013, 03:23:02 AM »
Welcome back!

Keep your welcomes. I am not making a habit of this. I got sucked in by a PM!

Someone needs to make an oc.net digest. Too much garbage here to filter through if you pop in once a week or so.
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #947 on: September 15, 2013, 05:59:34 AM »
Justinian was alive when Hagia Sophia was being built. There is also a handful of others.

How sure are you that that mosaic (or any of them really) goes back to the Hagia Sophia's initial construction?

I highly doubt that such an important building in the Imperial City could have retained its iconography in the midst of the Iconoclasms. If anything, it would have been one of the first to suffer.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #948 on: September 15, 2013, 07:24:23 AM »
There's a world of difference between ingratiating yourself by having yourself and your family painted into an icon (all of whom are alive), and showing two saints (Justinian the Great and Constantine the Great) supplicating before Christ.

If you can't tell the difference between deference and self-promotion ....

Justinian was alive when Hagia Sophia was being built. There is also a handful of others.

He might have commissioned the church while he was still alive, but churches of that size and scale take decades to complete. The church was completed well after Justinian the Great's death, including the mosaics, by his successor.

I repeat: The iconographic depiction of Sts Constantine and Justinian, both holding models of churches, supplicating before Christ, is completely proper, and something seen in countless icons of enlightener-saints, equals-to-the-apostles, and sainted founders of churches and monasteries. OTOH, the painting of the businessman and his family members in an otherwise proper icon of St Nicholas Help of Mariners, is blatant and blasphemous self-promotion. The iconographer who painted this schlock should also be taken to task for painting it. It is a betrayal of basic principles.

The proper way to indicate patronage of a church is to have one's name on the honor board which is hung in the narthex. Patronage of icons is ideally done anonymously, but, if a patron "must" be commemorated by name, then this should be done as a discreet painted inscription in a lower corner of the icon, and with lettering small enough that the inscription would be legible only at a very close distance. The emphasis must be on the icon, and the holy one(s) within it, not on the identity of the patron.


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Offline hecma925

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #949 on: September 15, 2013, 10:56:05 AM »




Is this shlock? I dont think there is a rule which forbids painting the founders of the church if they are still alive

This is so lame.  It defies justification.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2013, 10:56:17 AM by hecma925 »
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Offline mike

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #950 on: September 15, 2013, 12:37:11 PM »
How sure are you that that mosaic (or any of them really) goes back to the Hagia Sophia's initial construction?

Point taken. Most of the mosaics come from the 9th century but these ones were made while people presented on them were still alive:









There's a world of difference between ingratiating yourself by having yourself and your family painted into an icon (all of whom are alive), and showing two saints (Justinian the Great and Constantine the Great) supplicating before Christ.

If you can't tell the difference between deference and self-promotion ....

Justinian was alive when Hagia Sophia was being built. There is also a handful of others.

He might have commissioned the church while he was still alive, but churches of that size and scale take decades to complete. The church was completed well after Justinian the Great's death, including the mosaics, by his successor.

I repeat: The iconographic depiction of Sts Constantine and Justinian, both holding models of churches, supplicating before Christ, is completely proper, and something seen in countless icons of enlightener-saints, equals-to-the-apostles, and sainted founders of churches and monasteries. OTOH, the painting of the businessman and his family members in an otherwise proper icon of St Nicholas Help of Mariners, is blatant and blasphemous self-promotion. The iconographer who painted this schlock should also be taken to task for painting it. It is a betrayal of basic principles.

So how mosaic showing living emperors are not "blatant and blasphemous self-promotion"?

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #951 on: September 15, 2013, 02:43:22 PM »
No one disapproved at the time...
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Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #952 on: September 15, 2013, 05:02:24 PM »
No one disapproved at the time...

Because the emperor could have you killed.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #953 on: September 15, 2013, 05:54:57 PM »
The bag of coins held by the Emperor does strike the modern eye as being, at least, somewhat odd.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #954 on: September 15, 2013, 06:26:49 PM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #955 on: September 15, 2013, 06:42:30 PM »
The bag of coins held by the Emperor does strike the modern eye as being, at least, somewhat odd.

I read somewhere that Byzantine Emperors received a bag of dirt (reminding them of eventual death) when they were being installed.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #956 on: September 15, 2013, 06:48:17 PM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Face was also repainted a couple of times.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #957 on: September 15, 2013, 10:15:50 PM »
No one disapproved at the time...

Because the emperor could have you killed.

Yes. It was a great time.
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If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #958 on: September 15, 2013, 10:16:55 PM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #959 on: September 15, 2013, 10:50:04 PM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.

Is outrage! Such shenanigans occurred in holy Orthodox utopia under holy imperial system before world ruined by west? Must be media bias!!! ;)

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #960 on: September 16, 2013, 01:53:35 AM »
Nothing wrong with the icons themselves, but trust the Serbs to put them on liquor bottles, often with a prayer to the saint on the reverse:  :o :o





Just in case some folks think the bottle is intended for holy water, here's the packaging:



And some copper-clad versions:



I suppose having the prayer on hand after getting ironed out on slivovits makes a bit of sense ...  :P
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Offline Romaios

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #961 on: September 16, 2013, 02:22:46 AM »
Nothing wrong with the icons themselves, but trust the Serbs to put them on liquor bottles, often with a prayer to the saint on the reverse:  :o :o

Just in case some folks think the bottle is intended for holy water, here's the packaging:

I suppose having the prayer on hand after getting ironed out on slivovits makes a bit of sense ...  :P

Ingenious marketing!  :laugh:

On the other hand, liquor has always been holy to Orthodox people...

In Romanian we call someone who's boozed up "aghesmuit" from "aghiasmă" (holy water).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #962 on: September 16, 2013, 06:23:17 AM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.

Is outrage! Such shenanigans occurred in holy Orthodox utopia under holy imperial system before world ruined by west? Must be media bias!!! ;)

That's why LBK LBK ignored them.

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #963 on: September 16, 2013, 06:26:37 AM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.

Is outrage! Such shenanigans occurred in holy Orthodox utopia under holy imperial system before world ruined by west? Must be media bias!!! ;)

That's why LBK LBK ignored them.

Putting words in my mouth, and resorting to cheap shots yet again - the mark of someone who is only interested in drawing attention to himself.  >:( ::) ::)
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 06:28:56 AM by LBK »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #964 on: September 16, 2013, 06:55:50 AM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.

Is outrage! Such shenanigans occurred in holy Orthodox utopia under holy imperial system before world ruined by west? Must be media bias!!! ;)

That's why LBK LBK ignored them.

Putting words in my mouth, and resorting to cheap shots yet again - the mark of someone who is only interested in drawing attention to himself.  >:( ::) ::)

So can you tell the difference (or lack thereof) between those fresco and mosaics?

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #965 on: September 16, 2013, 06:57:49 AM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.

Is outrage! Such shenanigans occurred in holy Orthodox utopia under holy imperial system before world ruined by west? Must be media bias!!! ;)

That's why LBK LBK ignored them.

Putting words in my mouth, and resorting to cheap shots yet again - the mark of someone who is only interested in drawing attention to himself.  >:( ::) ::)

So can you tell the difference (or lack thereof) between those fresco and mosaics?

Go back and read my posts. They are written in plain English.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 06:58:26 AM by LBK »
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Offline Hawkeye

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #966 on: September 16, 2013, 07:04:48 AM »




While I don't necessarily agree with including founders and the like in a church's iconography, at least the examples from the Hagia Sophia don't look mightily out of place. These, on the other hand, are simply deplorable on an aesthetic level; they're artistic interlopers and I can't imagine that St. Nicholas is all that glad about having them in his boat.

Something about the colors of the iconography proper reminded me of the work of Fr. Stamatis Skliris, so I went looking for his site. Turns out I may not have done justice to this particular iconographer as his is nowhere near, nowhere at all, as trippy as Skliris' work. I forgot how crazy it can get.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 07:05:44 AM by Hawkeye »
Quote from: The Life of Ivan Neronov
[Ecclesiastics] conspired against him because they hated his teaching for its zealous emphasis on proper Christian conduct: with great courage he denounced all whom he saw behaving in an ungodly fashion... [As such] he was deprived of his priestly rank, bound in iron chains, and broken down in jails.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #967 on: September 16, 2013, 07:09:29 AM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.

Is outrage! Such shenanigans occurred in holy Orthodox utopia under holy imperial system before world ruined by west? Must be media bias!!! ;)

That's why LBK LBK ignored them.

Putting words in my mouth, and resorting to cheap shots yet again - the mark of someone who is only interested in drawing attention to himself.  >:( ::) ::)

So can you tell the difference (or lack thereof) between those fresco and mosaics?

Go back and read my posts. They are written in plain English.

You have not yet addressed Michal's point about living emperors/ empresses being depicted in the mosaics (e.g. Zoe and her series of husbands).
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #968 on: September 16, 2013, 07:12:35 AM »
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,42587.0.html

The above thread also has food for thought on the propriety or otherwise of painting living patrons in iconographic compositions.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #969 on: September 16, 2013, 07:19:56 AM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.

Is outrage! Such shenanigans occurred in holy Orthodox utopia under holy imperial system before world ruined by west? Must be media bias!!! ;)

That's why LBK LBK ignored them.

Putting words in my mouth, and resorting to cheap shots yet again - the mark of someone who is only interested in drawing attention to himself.  >:( ::) ::)

So can you tell the difference (or lack thereof) between those fresco and mosaics?

Go back and read my posts. They are written in plain English.

You have not yet addressed Michal's point about living emperors/ empresses being depicted in the mosaics (e.g. Zoe and her series of husbands).

Sts Constantine and Justinian were proclaimed saints, and their earthly lives had well and truly ended by the time the mosaic Michal posted in #941 was made. As for Zoe and her husbands, if any of them were alive, then this is unacceptable, even more so if the figures bear haloes.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #970 on: September 16, 2013, 07:25:23 AM »


While I don't necessarily agree with including founders and the like in a church's iconography, at least the examples from the Hagia Sophia don't look mightily out of place. These, on the other hand, are simply deplorable on an aesthetic level; they're artistic interlopers and I can't imagine that St. Nicholas is all that glad about having them in his boat.

Something about the colors of the iconography proper reminded me of the work of Fr. Stamatis Skliris, so I went looking for his site. Turns out I may not have done justice to this particular iconographer as his is nowhere near, nowhere at all, as trippy as Skliris' work. I forgot how crazy it can get.

Fr Stamatis Skliris does tone things down in some of his work, and some of it is almost "normal". Unfortunately, a great deal of his work is neither reverent, nor conducive to eliciting a prayerful disposition.

The good ship Patronage does have some of the coloration and application style of Skliris' work. This is not surprising, as the "icon" is in a Serbian church, and Fr Stamatis has quite a following in that country.  :P :P
« Last Edit: September 16, 2013, 07:27:05 AM by LBK »
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Offline mike

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #971 on: September 16, 2013, 07:25:37 AM »
There are mosaics that were made when Justinian was alive too:


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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #972 on: September 16, 2013, 07:27:57 AM »
There are mosaics that were made when Justinian was alive too:



And? It doesn't make them right, for the reasons I have expressed earlier.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #973 on: September 16, 2013, 07:22:30 PM »
Funny thing about that emperor mosaic- the name above him has been scratched out and rewritten several times, because Empress Zoe kept changing husbands.

Not by choice. Sort of thing happens when you're the only claim to dynastic legitimacy.

Is outrage! Such shenanigans occurred in holy Orthodox utopia under holy imperial system before world ruined by west? Must be media bias!!! ;)

Well, she had a sister, so she didn't have to get married more than the limit.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #974 on: September 17, 2013, 02:43:26 PM »
Found this one randomly when i googled "Orthodox Icons."

http://www.foundmyself.com/gallery/albums/userpics/17553/icoana_001.jpg

And this one:



Just ugly.
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Offline W.A.Mozart

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #976 on: September 17, 2013, 04:22:01 PM »
btw this angel is the angel at the tomb of Christ

"entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment"
completely new, especially not yet used

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #977 on: September 17, 2013, 05:36:10 PM »
It's like the Theotokos of Vladimir icon.  There are so many copies (Some good ones), but none can capture the eyes of the original.
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Offline W.A.Mozart

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #978 on: September 17, 2013, 05:41:33 PM »
What do you think is the reason for that? Why are some icons uncopiable?  ???

 
completely new, especially not yet used

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #979 on: September 17, 2013, 05:44:04 PM »

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #980 on: September 17, 2013, 05:46:05 PM »
Plagiarism is illegal. ;D  I really have no idea.  I would think that to have a grace-filled icon that speaks to the heart, its very conception must be blessed.  The entire process has to be filled with prayer.  I've seen beautiful copies/remakes of the Vladimir icon that move me and some that just scare me.  But the original icon is different.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #981 on: September 17, 2013, 05:47:28 PM »
Plagiarism is illegal. ;D

There is not a concept of copyrights in iconography

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #982 on: September 17, 2013, 06:02:14 PM »
Well, in my opinion, every copy of the white angel is schlock... I also think that modern artists do not have the creative spirituality, personal relationship with God sealed with freedom and potential which one feels while looking at the icons of Rublev and some other painters. Maybe it is high time we refreshed this page with the examples of the icons that are not schlock because if you want to know what schlock is you have to know what schlock is not


here are my favourite icons





http://cruciality.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/rublev-christ.jpg

http://www.belygorod.ru/img2/Ikona/Used/017rublev%20troitsa.jpg
completely new, especially not yet used

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #983 on: September 25, 2013, 01:13:47 AM »
Time to breathe some new life into this thread once more!:












^"Look, I know this thread can be sad to look at sometimes, but why the long face?"
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 01:14:02 AM by Nephi »

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #984 on: September 25, 2013, 01:24:55 AM »
Ah, more of the work of Betsy Porter, who gave us the Holy Mermaid I posted in about page 2, and works from some of her friends ....
« Last Edit: September 25, 2013, 01:25:27 AM by LBK »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #985 on: September 25, 2013, 01:25:53 AM »
Ah, more of the work of Betsy Porter, who gave us the Holy Mermaid I posted in about page 2, and works from some of her friends ....

So you're saying you wouldn't want to take one of her iconography classes? ;)

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #986 on: September 25, 2013, 01:45:36 AM »
Ah, more of the work of Betsy Porter, who gave us the Holy Mermaid I posted in about page 2, and works from some of her friends ....

So you're saying you wouldn't want to take one of her iconography classes? ;)

As if her draftsmanship and painterly skills alone weren't woeful enough to disqualify her from holding herself out as a "master iconographer", she is also a devotee of the dreaded Prosopon School of iconography.  :P :P :P
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #987 on: September 25, 2013, 07:37:14 AM »
The Prosopon School is great. Their work doesn't look anything like this.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #988 on: September 25, 2013, 07:59:36 AM »
The Prosopon School is great. Their work doesn't look anything like this.

The artistic style of Prosopon icons is one thing, I find it too dreamy and distracting, but YMMV. What is of far graver concern is the nonsense that the school promotes, both in its philosophy of "spirituality", and in the choice of subject matter in many of the works produced. Unmistakeably uncanonical images, a new-agey ethos, all quite removed from what is traditional and accepted practice.

There is a growing number of iconographers who are now disavowing themselves from the Prosopon approach, and are having to unlearn their "bad habits". All strength to them.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #989 on: September 25, 2013, 08:34:25 AM »
At the risk of sounding stupid, what is the Prosopon School of Iconography?  How is it different from other types of icons?
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