Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 104704 times)

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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #540 on: March 14, 2013, 10:24:54 PM »
You're missing two crucial details here, which most people understandably miss:

1. The OT Trinity can be thus depicted, as it is a revealed image. Three strangers did appear to Abraham and Sarah at the Oak of Mamre. OTOH, who has seen the pre-incarnate Wisdom of God as an androgynous angel?
Aren't the three strangers "androgynous angels?" :P But I understand what you mean: the Visitation is a revealed symbol, whereas the "pre-incarnate Wisdom of God" is not. Although, wouldn't the pre-incarnate Word (of course not as Wisdom, per se) be effectively revealed through the Visitation? Even if one can't particularly point out which individual stranger corresponded to the Son.

Quote
2. The haloes on the heads of the three angels in the OT Trinity are plain. None of them bear the holy name of God, none of them bear the nine lines forming a cross, and none of the angels bear the inscription IC XC. The absence of these motifs are crucial to the acceptance of this icon as safe and canonical, which the Church has indeed done.
Interesting point. So then would an Ethiopian Trinity icon, like below, be possibly "safe and canonical" from an EO perspective? Unless it falls into the same problem as #1, simply being an unrevealed image of the Trinity. I'm not sure if you've touched on this question somewhere else on this forum or not.



The Ethiopian trinities are not canonical from an EO perspective. Neither God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit have ever revealed themselves in the form of bearded old men. Only the Son of God became incarnate, and His taking up of human nature was full and complete, while still maintaining His full divinity.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #541 on: March 14, 2013, 10:43:27 PM »
This one's fun:




I'm part Ukrainian and this one makes me sick.

I'm 100% Ukrainian....and it totally makes me sick.



Poor Liza! As soon as I saw it, I knew you wouldn't be happy, to put it mildly.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #542 on: March 14, 2013, 11:02:15 PM »
Who is the saint sitting to the left of the throne?

I can make out Holy and Monk, the first and third words, but the middle word of the inscription is difficult to make out because of the resolution. It doesn't appear to be an actual name, it is more likely a descriptive, an adjective, making this monk a generic figure, not a real person. If so, it adds to the falseness of this image as an icon: It is impossible and improper to venerate fictitious or imaginary characters.
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Offline mike

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #543 on: March 15, 2013, 08:21:30 AM »
It is impossible and improper to venerate fictitious or imaginary characters.


Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #544 on: March 15, 2013, 08:36:28 AM »
It is impossible and improper to venerate fictitious or imaginary characters.



Just because someone painted an "icon" of that parable doesn't make it suitable for veneration. It is a didactic image, not an icon. There is nothing in Orthodox tradition which tells us who he was, and if he became a saint. Therefore, how is it possible or proper to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul?

OTOH, the Samaritan woman who conversed with Christ at the well, and the woman with the issue of blood who was healed by touching the hem of Christ's garment, were not named in the scripture accounts in which they appear, but Orthodox tradition names them as Photeini/Svetlana and Veronica, and both are saints.

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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #545 on: March 15, 2013, 09:40:59 AM »
Poor Liza! As soon as I saw it, I knew you wouldn't be happy, to put it mildly.

Nauseating....and very upsetting that some Ukrainian would do this.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #546 on: March 15, 2013, 09:43:18 AM »
Poor Liza! As soon as I saw it, I knew you wouldn't be happy, to put it mildly.

Nauseating....and very upsetting that some Ukrainian would do this.

... and there would be plenty of Russians, Greeks, etc who would be nauseated and angry at the schlock produced by their countrymen, some of which has found its way onto this thread. Those that aren't, should be.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 09:46:14 AM by LBK »
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Offline LizaSymonenko

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #547 on: March 15, 2013, 09:45:46 AM »
It is impossible and improper to venerate fictitious or imaginary characters.



Just because someone painted an "icon" of that parable doesn't make it suitable for veneration. It is a didactic image, not an icon. There is nothing in Orthodox tradition which tells us who he was, and if he became a saint. Therefore, how is it possible or proper to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul?

OTOH, the Samaritan woman who conversed with Christ at the well, and the woman with the issue of blood who was healed by touching the hem of Christ's garment, were not named in the scripture accounts in which they appear, but Orthodox tradition names them as Photeini/Svetlana and Veronica, and both are saints.



In order to "venerate" the icon, you kiss it.  Whom would you kiss here?  The Pharisee or the tax collector....and why would you kiss them?

While the tax collector is a good example of repentance, that we should emulate, he's hardly worthy of kissing and venerating.

We only venerate and worship God....and His saints (only due to God's grace upon and working through them).

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #548 on: March 15, 2013, 09:47:15 AM »
It is impossible and improper to venerate fictitious or imaginary characters.



Just because someone painted an "icon" of that parable doesn't make it suitable for veneration. It is a didactic image, not an icon. There is nothing in Orthodox tradition which tells us who he was, and if he became a saint. Therefore, how is it possible or proper to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul?

OTOH, the Samaritan woman who conversed with Christ at the well, and the woman with the issue of blood who was healed by touching the hem of Christ's garment, were not named in the scripture accounts in which they appear, but Orthodox tradition names them as Photeini/Svetlana and Veronica, and both are saints.



In order to "venerate" the icon, you kiss it.  Whom would you kiss here?  The Pharisee or the tax collector....and why would you kiss them?

While the tax collector is a good example of repentance, that we should emulate, he's hardly worthy of kissing and venerating.

We only venerate and worship God....and His saints (only due to God's grace upon and working through them).



Precisely, my dear Liza. Precisely.  :D
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #549 on: March 15, 2013, 10:24:46 AM »
It is impossible and improper to venerate fictitious or imaginary characters.



Just because someone painted an "icon" of that parable doesn't make it suitable for veneration. It is a didactic image, not an icon. There is nothing in Orthodox tradition which tells us who he was, and if he became a saint. Therefore, how is it possible or proper to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul?

OTOH, the Samaritan woman who conversed with Christ at the well, and the woman with the issue of blood who was healed by touching the hem of Christ's garment, were not named in the scripture accounts in which they appear, but Orthodox tradition names them as Photeini/Svetlana and Veronica, and both are saints.



In order to "venerate" the icon, you kiss it.  Whom would you kiss here?  The Pharisee or the tax collector....and why would you kiss them?

While the tax collector is a good example of repentance, that we should emulate, he's hardly worthy of kissing and venerating.

We only venerate and worship God....and His saints (only due to God's grace upon and working through them).



Precisely, my dear Liza. Precisely.  :D

The discussions here have been interesting, and as always, informative. However, it seems to me that there are at least categories of images being discussed and perhaps being lumped together. This is confusing. I see them as:

1. True "schlock", schlock being defined as something "of low quality or value" implying something cheesy, kitschy, bargain basement, touristy etc...

2. Paintings of a religious motif, not truly icons to be venerated - but perhaps of pietetic value or sentiment...Such images have been used in both the west and east as teaching tools for the illiterate or to illustrate children's books for generations. (Bible stories, even church ceilings ...)

3. Heretical images...

There may be others as well.

I guess I am not comfortable in lumping them all together as "schlock."


Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #550 on: March 15, 2013, 10:39:46 AM »

The discussions here have been interesting, and as always, informative. However, it seems to me that there are at least categories of images being discussed and perhaps being lumped together. This is confusing. I see them as:

1. True "schlock", schlock being defined as something "of low quality or value" implying something cheesy, kitschy, bargain basement, touristy etc...

2. Paintings of a religious motif, not truly icons to be venerated - but perhaps of pietetic value or sentiment...Such images have been used in both the west and east as teaching tools for the illiterate or to illustrate children's books for generations. (Bible stories, even church ceilings ...)

3. Heretical images...

There may be others as well.

I guess I am not comfortable in lumping them all together as "schlock."


I quite agree. The image Michal posted, and the subsequent posts would be better suited to the sister thread "Strange icons".
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Offline Orthodox11

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #551 on: March 15, 2013, 10:43:09 AM »
Our dear Isa is not exactly fond of that particular tsar. In his kinder moments, he refers him to "Peter the not-so-great".  :laugh:

I'm quite happy with the simple Old Believer appellation 'antichrist'.


Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #553 on: March 17, 2013, 06:14:43 PM »
Wow, that was... wow.  ???
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Offline W.A.Mozart

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #556 on: March 24, 2013, 08:07:43 PM »
the answer is simple -facebookism
completely new, especially not yet used

Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #557 on: March 24, 2013, 08:40:17 PM »
Makes me happy I use Facebook for games and talking about my friends' cats. :)
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #558 on: March 27, 2013, 04:45:10 PM »
From Romanian monastery Brâncoveanu


And

Don't know if is it schlock or just strange?...
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 04:48:55 PM by Dominika »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #559 on: March 27, 2013, 05:35:22 PM »
Is that St. John Rossos?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #560 on: March 27, 2013, 05:50:02 PM »
Is that St. John Rossos?

No, "Martyrdom of Constantin Brancoveanu and his family"
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #561 on: March 27, 2013, 05:52:19 PM »
Would this Icon of St. Cyril vested as a Priest (not a Bishop) be considered uncanonical from the EO POV?

« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 05:52:28 PM by Severian »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #562 on: March 27, 2013, 05:54:41 PM »
From Romanian monastery Brâncoveanu


And

Don't know if is it schlock or just strange?...

The first one is a variation of the Deesis (Supplicatory) type, which shows the Mother of God and St John the Baptist on either side of Christ, gesturing to him in prayer and supplication. In this icon, Christ is shown as the enthroned Great High Priest, a common iconographic type, most often seen in the icon within the bishop's throne in Greek churches.

The second one is a detail from a much larger narrative icon showing a scene from the life of what seems to be a martyr or martyrs of the Ottoman period.

Neither of them are schlock.
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #563 on: March 27, 2013, 05:57:58 PM »

The first one is a variation of the Deesis (Supplicatory) type, which shows the Mother of God and St John the Baptist on either side of Christ, gesturing to him in prayer and supplication. In this icon, Christ is shown as the enthroned Great High Priest, a common iconographic type, most often seen in the icon within the bishop's throne in Greek churches.

The second one is a detail from a much larger narrative icon showing a scene from the life of what seems to be a martyr or martyrs of the Ottoman period.

Neither of them are schlock.

I know the first one is Deesis, but the colours and Christ's eyes... Are a bit strange.

As for the second one, it's probably the first one in which I've seen a mosque. And thank you for the answer, as you're a specialist regarding this subject ;)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 05:58:20 PM by Dominika »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #564 on: March 27, 2013, 05:58:44 PM »
Would this Icon of St. Cyril vested as a Priest (not a Bishop) be considered uncanonical from the EO POV?



Saints of clerical rank should be shown either in their clerical "civvies", or in vestments appropriate to his rank. If St Cyril was a bishop, it would be wrong to portray him as only a priest.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #565 on: March 27, 2013, 06:31:21 PM »

As for the second one, it's probably the first one in which I've seen a mosque.
Here's another one, of St George the New Martyr of Ioannina.



Ioannina is a city in north-west Greece, and at least three Ottoman-era mosques still stand there, though they are no longer used for worship. St George was martyred during the Ottoman period, so, as a symbol of his place of martyrdom and of the perpetrators of it, one of the mosques of Ioannina is often seen in the background of his icons.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 06:34:57 PM by LBK »
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Offline Dominika

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #566 on: March 30, 2013, 08:18:16 AM »
^ thanks for sharing.


Is it schlock? (it's a Serbian icon and the text in the Gospel is written in Serbia ""I am the Light of the world...")
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #567 on: March 30, 2013, 09:49:42 AM »
Would this Icon of St. Cyril vested as a Priest (not a Bishop) be considered uncanonical from the EO POV?



The Byzantine mitre was not adopted until the fall of the Empire by the Eastern Orthodox, even later by the Copts and Assyrians.  That is why early bishop saints are never shown with it, i.e St. John Chrysostom, St. Basil etc.  The omophor being the identifying symbol of a bishop in Byzantine iconography.  St. Nicholas is anachronistically shown with it in some icons I believe due to western images protraying him as a Western bishop.  St. Cyril certainly did not wear the Byzantine mitre although in Byzantine iconography he is portrayed with a polystavrion cap.
http://www.comeandseeicons.com/c/cap25.htm

Given that Coptic vestments and iconography differ from Byzantine it is not proper to judge it by Byzantine standards.  I would judge that the headwear shown in the Coptic icon is that worn before adoption of the Byzantine mitre.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #568 on: March 30, 2013, 11:00:15 AM »
Why is it brown? I mean all of it is brown.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #569 on: March 30, 2013, 12:10:07 PM »
Why is it brown? I mean all of it is brown.
I think that is the computer.  The stole is burgundy and the phelon and mitre are muted non-metallic gold.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #570 on: March 30, 2013, 12:31:17 PM »
^ thanks for sharing.


Is it schlock? (it's a Serbian icon and the text in the Gospel is written in Serbia ""I am the Light of the world...")

Doesn't look too bad to me. The colors clash a bit, but since we say the Lord is the Creator of life, I think it's theologically okay. Just my thought.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #571 on: March 30, 2013, 01:12:11 PM »
It is impossible and improper to venerate fictitious or imaginary characters.



Just because someone painted an "icon" of that parable doesn't make it suitable for veneration. It is a didactic image, not an icon. There is nothing in Orthodox tradition which tells us who he was, and if he became a saint. Therefore, how is it possible or proper to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul?

OTOH, the Samaritan woman who conversed with Christ at the well, and the woman with the issue of blood who was healed by touching the hem of Christ's garment, were not named in the scripture accounts in which they appear, but Orthodox tradition names them as Photeini/Svetlana and Veronica, and both are saints.



In order to "venerate" the icon, you kiss it.  Whom would you kiss here?  The Pharisee or the tax collector....and why would you kiss them?

While the tax collector is a good example of repentance, that we should emulate, he's hardly worthy of kissing and venerating.

We only venerate and worship God....and His saints (only due to God's grace upon and working through them).



Precisely, my dear Liza. Precisely.  :D

Unless you follow St. Gabriel of Mtskheta's advice and venerate the case/outside edge. I don't know what he would have done with that one, but his favorite thing to do was rescue and clean up discarded icons and put them in his church.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #572 on: March 30, 2013, 01:13:18 PM »
Our dear Isa is not exactly fond of that particular tsar. In his kinder moments, he refers him to "Peter the not-so-great".  :laugh:

I'm quite happy with the simple Old Believer appellation 'antichrist'.

Then you will probably be quite surprised.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #573 on: March 31, 2013, 12:59:26 AM »
^ thanks for sharing.


Is it schlock? (it's a Serbian icon and the text in the Gospel is written in Serbia ""I am the Light of the world...")

My first thought: Christ is seated on the Earth as His throne. This is false imagery, as Christ's throne is heavenly, ineffable, His kingdom is not of this world.

My second thought: The cartoonish background of planets, stars and heavenly bodies is swirling, noisy, chaotic. It violates the quality of order, stillness and gravitas which any good icon has, and which brings us to prayer and compunction.

This painting is yet another example of someone's "creativity" getting in the way of a proper and sober proclamation of what is true and right. A shame, as the painter's artistic skill is otherwise quite good.
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #574 on: March 31, 2013, 04:47:11 AM »
I don't think even the schlockiest icon can compare to this horrid monstrosity of a statuette.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #575 on: March 31, 2013, 04:55:13 AM »
I don't think even the schlockiest icon can compare to this horrid monstrosity of a statuette.

That would totally fit on a Star Trek episode about an alien planet/culture  ;D
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #576 on: March 31, 2013, 06:36:44 AM »
I don't think even the schlockiest icon can compare to this horrid monstrosity of a statuette.

Not so fast, I have some pretty baaaaad stuff on file which easily beats it.  ;) But I agree it's ghastly, fake and bland.

My instant thought on the statuette: A traffic cop on point duty.  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #577 on: March 31, 2013, 08:27:27 AM »
Unless you follow St. Gabriel of Mtskheta's advice and venerate the case/outside edge. I don't know what he would have done with that one, but his favorite thing to do was rescue and clean up discarded icons and put them in his church.

Venerating the frame of the icon, or, indeed, the glass over the icon, is no different than venerating the icon itself. We venerate icons as a whole, without making a distinction between the image itself, and the frame and glass that enclose it.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #578 on: April 11, 2013, 01:17:26 PM »
From a church in one of the border regions of Orthodox East and RC West:

God the Father, clearly inscribed as such, looking down on His crucified Son:



... and the Crucifixion:



Some seriously weird stuff goin' down  ....  :o :o
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Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #579 on: April 11, 2013, 02:08:18 PM »
Yipes.  :o >:( :-[
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #580 on: April 22, 2013, 03:26:34 PM »
have these been posted?



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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #581 on: April 22, 2013, 03:30:52 PM »
have these been posted?


Oh man, the second image had me in stitches. :D
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 03:31:03 PM by sheenj »

Offline Dominika

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #582 on: April 22, 2013, 04:14:20 PM »
have these been posted?
^^  :o




Schlock or just strange?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #583 on: April 22, 2013, 07:13:19 PM »




It's hard to tell if this was painted by an RC/BC or "True Orthodox" hand. If the former, it's on a par with the syncretistic schlock seen at the New Skete monastery; if the latter, yet another polemical, ecclesiopolitical statement. At least neither figure sports a halo.

Where did you find this image, Gunnar? I'm interested.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 07:13:45 PM by LBK »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #584 on: April 22, 2013, 07:31:26 PM »


Schlock or just strange?

According to the source: Icon of the Deliverance of the Carpatho-Russian coalminers from a mine disaster on St Nicholas Day (19 December) in 1907

Unusual, but not quite schlock.
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