Schlock Icons

[Severian]

Forgive me if this one has been discussed before, but is this also a "schlock Icon?" If so, why?

[LBK]

I have two of these at home.  It is an old Romanian pattern.

From a story about folk iconography. Maybe not schlock, but strange.

Not just in Romania, but in other regions where RC and Orthodox overlap, such as western Ukraine, Poland, the Baltics, etc. It's a variant of the western (and some late Cretan School) Crucifixions which show an angel catching the stream of blood gushing from Christ's pierced side in a chalice.

[LBK]

Forgive me if this one has been discussed before, but is this also a "schlock Icon?" If so, why?

Yes, it is. Origen, anathematized as a heretic at the Fifth Ecumenical Council, is shown in a position of prominence and authority over the saints. The fact that he does not bear a halo is almost beside the point. His epitracheilion bears a cross, which signifies he is a priest in good standing with the Church. In proper icons, deposed or anathematised clerics are shown in vestments devoid of any crosses or other Christian symbols, a potent expression of their falling away from the Church.

These two posts, by Fr H and Shanghaiski respectively, on the "St Origen" thread are excellent:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29635.msg468459.html#msg468459

It isn't just about apokatastasis.  Gregory of Nyssa did not have bad anthropology--Origen did.  And this was the councils first concern, as we see it in the first of its anathemas.   Origen taught the pre-existence of souls, and worse yet, the men and material flesh only came about, not because of the will of God, but as the result of their sinful desire not to see the face of God.   For Origen the man is not body and soul, but the sole hidden in the "trap" of a body because his love for God grew cold and hid there!   That Origin is a heretic has little to do with the fact of restoration and much to do with the fact that he taught and upheld a completely dangerous view of creation, man and the Incarnation and whole of soteriology.   He taught not only restoration but also that the personhood of each human person will "disappear" and all be absorbed into the Godhead.   This is more Hinduism than it is Christianity. 

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,29635.msg468515.html#msg468515

The Church has made her position on the status of Origen's person. Beyond that, with regard to his writings, she takes the good and leaves the bad. Origen has not been made worthy of veneration for the good he has written, but has been condemned for the bad, and all the bad that that caused later. If we venerate him in contradiction of what the Church bids us do, we will be found disobedient. But if we follow the Church and accept what good teaching Origen provides, leave the rest, and leave aside the issue of his person because we ourselves are in no position to take it up, then we do well, I think. The matter is a settled one, as far as the Church is concerned. It was a painful decision at the time, and reconsidering it now, 1500 years later would be more difficult and dangerous--and for what? Our faith is not defined by either the person or teachings of Origen, but by Christ--His Person, teachings, and the teaching on His Person. It was for that that the 5th Council was convened, and for false teaching on that subject that Origen was condemned.

[Michał Kalina]

schlock or not?

I personally like that style.

[Eastern Mind]

schlock or not?

I personally like that style.

I have no idea, but it is lovely.

[Monk Vasyl]

This one's fun:

I'm part Ukrainian and this one makes me sick.

[Monk Vasyl]

It's in an Orthodox Chapel at Dachau. Many Orthodox were sent to Dachau, and the imagery is due to the fact that the camp was liberated on Pascha.

May 6 (23 April on the Orthodox calendar) was the day of Pascha, Orthodox Easter. In a cell block used by Catholic priests to say daily Mass, several Greek, Serbian and Russian priests and one Serbian deacon, wearing makeshift vestments made from towels of the SS guard, gathered with several hundred Greek, Serbian and Russian prisoners to celebrate the Paschal Vigil. A prisoner named Rahr described the scene:

   In the entire history of the Orthodox Church there has probably never been an Easter service like the one at Dachau in 1945. Greek and Serbian priests together with a Serbian deacon adorned the make-shift 'vestments' over their blue and gray-striped prisoners' uniforms. Then they began to chant, changing from Greek to Slavonic, and then back again to Greek. The Easter Canon, the Easter Sticheras—everything was recited from memory. The Gospel—In the beginning was the Word—also from memory. And finally, the Homily of Saint John—also from memory. A young Greek monk from the Holy Mountain stood up in front of us and recited it with such infectious enthusiasm that we shall never forget him as long as we live. Saint John Chrysostomos himself seemed to speak through him to us and to the rest of the world as well!


There is a Russian Orthodox chapel at the camp today, and it is well known for its icon of Christ leading the prisoners out of the camp gates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp#Post-liberation_Easter

I think we need to be careful with some things that we condemn so harshly on this thread. Our Church celebrates the Sunday of the Publican and the Pharisee for a reason.

I think he was being sarcastic. I personally like that icon very much.

I, too, think this is a beautiful and moving icon.

[LBK]

schlock or not?

I personally like that style.

No, it's not schlock. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.

The composition of the Child clinging to His mother in this way is seen in quite a few icons, such as Korsunskaya, Savior of the Lost (also known as Rescuer of the Drowning), and the Pskov-Pechersk Umileniye. The icon Yaroslavskaya is also very similar, in that the Child is grasping His Mother's mantle with one hand, and caressing her face with the other.

[Eastern Mind]

IM sure im not the only one that doesnt like icons being defaced

"Catholic Memes" does this all the time and it irritates me to no end.

[Michał Kalina]

No, it's not schlock. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.

The composition of the Child clinging to His mother in this way is seen in quite a few icons, such as Korsunskaya, Savior of the Lost (also known as Rescuer of the Drowning), and the Pskov-Pechersk Umileniye. The icon Yaroslavskaya is also very similar, in that the Child is grasping His Mother's mantle with one hand, and caressing her face with the other.

I'm not talking about composition, but about style (something like modern computer graphic).

[TheMathematician]

IM sure im not the only one that doesnt like icons being defaced

"Catholic Memes" does this all the time and it irritates me to no end.

That's where I took it form, haha. My one seminarian friend in the Rcc shared it

[LBK]

No, it's not schlock. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.

The composition of the Child clinging to His mother in this way is seen in quite a few icons, such as Korsunskaya, Savior of the Lost (also known as Rescuer of the Drowning), and the Pskov-Pechersk Umileniye. The icon Yaroslavskaya is also very similar, in that the Child is grasping His Mother's mantle with one hand, and caressing her face with the other.

I'm not talking about composition, but about style (something like modern computer graphic).

The smoothness of the facial modeling (shading) is something a skilled artist can achieve. The best Cretan School icons (before their degeneration into imitations of Renaissance art) featured facial modeling that was softer and less geometric than other iconographic styles, while still keeping to a non-photographic, otherworldly look.

OTOH, the stuff that Monastery Icons produces just has to be the product of a graphics program. Cookie-cutter pictures. Never have I seen work (I cannot bring myself to call their products "icons") that looks so plastic, artificial, soulless, and totally lacking in any reverence or spiritual power. 

[Michał Kalina]

No, it's not schlock. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.

The composition of the Child clinging to His mother in this way is seen in quite a few icons, such as Korsunskaya, Savior of the Lost (also known as Rescuer of the Drowning), and the Pskov-Pechersk Umileniye. The icon Yaroslavskaya is also very similar, in that the Child is grasping His Mother's mantle with one hand, and caressing her face with the other.

I'm not talking about composition, but about style (something like modern computer graphic).

The smoothness of the facial modeling (shading) is something a skilled artist can achieve. The best Cretan School icons (before their degeneration into imitations of Renaissance art) featured facial modeling that was softer and less geometric than other iconographic styles, while still keeping to a non-photographic, otherworldly look.

What about that (still asking about technique and coloristics only)?

[LBK]

No, it's not schlock. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.

The composition of the Child clinging to His mother in this way is seen in quite a few icons, such as Korsunskaya, Savior of the Lost (also known as Rescuer of the Drowning), and the Pskov-Pechersk Umileniye. The icon Yaroslavskaya is also very similar, in that the Child is grasping His Mother's mantle with one hand, and caressing her face with the other.

I'm not talking about composition, but about style (something like modern computer graphic).

The smoothness of the facial modeling (shading) is something a skilled artist can achieve. The best Cretan School icons (before their degeneration into imitations of Renaissance art) featured facial modeling that was softer and less geometric than other iconographic styles, while still keeping to a non-photographic, otherworldly look.

What about that (still asking about technique and coloristics only)?

Again, while I would regard the presence of the crown on the Virgin's head as an unnecessary embellishment (and the profusion of elaborate detailing is distracting from proper stillness and gravitas of a good icon), this is still an icon suitable for veneration. I find the choice of colors heading towards the shrill and loud end of the spectrum, not that I'm surprised. It has the look of the work of Fr Stamatios Skliris when he's behaving himself (i.e. when he's not indulging in the all-out psychedelic impressionism I have critiqued in this thread), or the work of someone influenced by him.

[LBK]

In response to Liza Symonenko's posting of a lurid "icon" of Tsar Nicholas II in the "Strange icons" thread, here's some more ultramonarchist grist for your mills:



The upper inscription reads: For Faith, Tsar, and Fatherland! The lower one reads: Angel of the Russian Land/Tsar-Redeemer Nicholas II

The fools who promote such blasphemous madness are known as царебожники tsarebozhniki - they have elevated the tsar to an equal footing with God.

[Nephi]

In response to Liza Symonenko's posting of a lurid "icon" of Tsar Nicholas II in the "Strange icons" thread, here's some more ultramonarchist grist for your mills:

The upper inscription reads: For Faith, Tsar, and Fatherland! The lower one reads: Angel of the Russian Land/Tsar-Redeemer Nicholas II

The fools who promote such blasphemous madness are known as царебожники tsarebozhniki - they have elevated the tsar to an equal footing with God.

So they're somewhat of a Russian version of Rastafari?

[LBK]

In response to Liza Symonenko's posting of a lurid "icon" of Tsar Nicholas II in the "Strange icons" thread, here's some more ultramonarchist grist for your mills:

The upper inscription reads: For Faith, Tsar, and Fatherland! The lower one reads: Angel of the Russian Land/Tsar-Redeemer Nicholas II

The fools who promote such blasphemous madness are known as царебожники tsarebozhniki - they have elevated the tsar to an equal footing with God.

So they're somewhat of a Russian version of Rastafari?

If you mean those who call themselves Rastas and who deify Emperor Haile Selassie, yes.

[LBK]

... and one that ialmisry would, erm, appreciate, of "The Holy, Right-believing Emperor, Peter the Great":



A competent portrait painting spoiled by some pretty basic 'shopping, but it's the thought that counts. 

[LizaSymonenko]

Peter the Great....a saint?  Really?

People need to review what it takes to become a saint.

[LBK]

Peter the Great....a saint?  Really?

People need to review what it takes to become a saint.

My dear Liza, do you think fanatics who come up with this garbage bother with such details? 

[LBK]

More from the Tsarebozhniki:



Note the empty throne, waiting in anticipation to be occupied again. The motifs of the empty throne and the table bearing the Gospel are features of proper icons of the Last Judgement, where, following the Second Coming and the judgement of the living and the dead, the final act of history, Christ will resume His throne, to reign over His Kingdom that has no end.

The title of this travesty, oddly enough, given its "eschatological" content, is Mother of God of the Kingdom of Great Russia.

[LBK]

And if ultramonarchism combined with ultranationalism isn't enough for these people, they've come up with this twist on the Creed in pictorial form:



Some seriously weird **** goin' down ....

[sheenj]

And if ultramonarchism combined with ultranationalism isn't enough for these people, they've come up with this twist on the Creed in pictorial form:

Some seriously weird **** goin' down ....

The Creed written on a peace sign? What's weird about that? 

[Agabus]

Transgender Christ:

[Ansgar]

And if ultramonarchism combined with ultranationalism isn't enough for these people, they've come up with this twist on the Creed in pictorial form:

Some seriously weird **** goin' down ....

The Creed written on a peace sign? What's weird about that? 

The swastika might be a peace symbol, but I have a feeling that the person who made that image wasn't aware of that.

[Fabio Leite]

I have an icon question. I have found several sites with the meaning of colors in icon, but they never mention the pink we see in some icons. It doesn't seem to be a color used a lot in the first millenium though. Where did it come from, and is there any meaning to it or it was just "fashionable" somewhere and become a stylistic thing?

[LizaSymonenko]

Can you link to an example?

[LBK]

I have an icon question. I have found several sites with the meaning of colors in icon, but they never mention the pink we see in some icons. It doesn't seem to be a color used a lot in the first millenium though. Where did it come from, and is there any meaning to it or it was just "fashionable" somewhere and become a stylistic thing?

Pink, as in salmon pink, was used from time to time mainly in Russian icons (less commonly in Greek icons) as a highlight color on the underside of angels' wings, instead of the more common blue and white tones. It calls to mind the light of dawn, while the more common blue suggests heaven. Often, pairs of angels are painted in complementary colors: one angel has pink highlights on his wings, the other blue. One angel wears, say, a red mantle over a green tunic, the other a green mantle over a red tunic.

A more rosy pink, is frequently seen as a garment color in the frescoes of some of the ancient Serbian monasteries and churches. I am not sure whether this is the original shade, or whether it is the result of alteration of pigments due to aging or atmospheric effects.

Colors are generally chosen for their symbolic value, but there is also some scope for creativity, as long as it does not override any established symbolic conventions, such as the red and blue garments of Christ and the Mother of God. In the past, the range of colors an iconographer used was also influenced by the local availability of certain pigments and ores, and certain iconographic schools or regions became known for their use of certain distinctive colors, such as the sage green of Pskov, and the vermilion of Novgorod.

[Michał Kalina]

"Each color can mean pretty everything" - that what I deduced after reading one book about icons.

[Shanghaiski]

... and one that ialmisry would, erm, appreciate, of "The Holy, Right-believing Emperor, Peter the Great":



A competent portrait painting spoiled by some pretty basic 'shopping, but it's the thought that counts.  

He needs to be portrayed as he is in heaven--with robes and a long beard.

[Shanghaiski]

Transgender Christ:

Don't know about transgender, but it's definitely theologically bizarre.

[LBK]

Transgender Christ:

Don't know about transgender, but it's definitely theologically bizarre.

The infamous and clearly uncanonical "Angel of Blessed Silence". It's been around for centuries, and is unfortunately still around, just like the equally theologically execrable "NT Trinity". 

[Michał Kalina]

He needs to be portrayed as he is in heaven--with robes and a long beard cuffed and under table.

fixed that for you

[Fabio Leite]

Thanks!

I have an icon question. I have found several sites with the meaning of colors in icon, but they never mention the pink we see in some icons. It doesn't seem to be a color used a lot in the first millenium though. Where did it come from, and is there any meaning to it or it was just "fashionable" somewhere and become a stylistic thing?

Pink, as in salmon pink, was used from time to time mainly in Russian icons (less commonly in Greek icons) as a highlight color on the underside of angels' wings, instead of the more common blue and white tones. It calls to mind the light of dawn, while the more common blue suggests heaven. Often, pairs of angels are painted in complementary colors: one angel has pink highlights on his wings, the other blue. One angel wears, say, a red mantle over a green tunic, the other a green mantle over a red tunic.

A more rosy pink, is frequently seen as a garment color in the frescoes of some of the ancient Serbian monasteries and churches. I am not sure whether this is the original shade, or whether it is the result of alteration of pigments due to aging or atmospheric effects.

Colors are generally chosen for their symbolic value, but there is also some scope for creativity, as long as it does not override any established symbolic conventions, such as the red and blue garments of Christ and the Mother of God. In the past, the range of colors an iconographer used was also influenced by the local availability of certain pigments and ores, and certain iconographic schools or regions became known for their use of certain distinctive colors, such as the sage green of Pskov, and the vermilion of Novgorod.

[LBK]

Thanks!

Thank you. We aim to please. 

[Agabus]

Transgender Christ:

Don't know about transgender, but it's definitely theologically bizarre.

The infamous and clearly uncanonical "Angel of Blessed Silence". It's been around for centuries, and is unfortunately still around, just like the equally theologically execrable "NT Trinity". 

I found it on a site for transgender Christians, and they were promoting it as an icon that “emphasizes the feminine features of Christ.” I thought it was strange, but figured it was based on a prototype that had been maimed through history and political ambition.

[LizaSymonenko]

This one's fun:

I'm part Ukrainian and this one makes me sick.

I'm 100% Ukrainian....and it totally makes me sick.

[LBK]

Transgender Christ:

Don't know about transgender, but it's definitely theologically bizarre.

The infamous and clearly uncanonical "Angel of Blessed Silence". It's been around for centuries, and is unfortunately still around, just like the equally theologically execrable "NT Trinity". 

I found it on a site for transgender Christians, and they were promoting it as an icon that “emphasizes the feminine features of Christ.” I thought it was strange, but figured it was based on a prototype that had been maimed through history and political ambition.

The historical image always showed this ambiguity. Wisdom is grammatically feminine in most languages, including Greek and Slavonic. In English, which does not  have grammatical genders, this "femininity" is retained in scripture: "Wisdom has built her house ..." The image is uncanonical as it shows Christ in a symbolic form, as an attribute of His, as a "type and shadow", and not in the fullness of His revelation as God Incarnate.

The appropriation of this image by the transgender lobby is not at all surprising, particularly as the specific image posted was painted by William Hart McNichols, a protege of Robert Lentz, a Jesuit priest and homosexual, whose "iconography", like that of Lentz, frequently expresses themes promoting tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality and other "gender identities".

[Nephi]

The image is uncanonical as it shows Christ in a symbolic form, as an attribute of His, as a "type and shadow", and not in the fullness of His revelation as God Incarnate.

This always confuses me since it doesn't seem to apply to either the Visitation of Abraham ("OT Trinity") or the "NT Trinity" (with the Father symbolically depicted as an old man). The Visitation is (symbolically?) depicting a pre-Incarnate Christ, which seems theologically problematic just like depicting Christ as a messenger, a lamb, or some other non-Incarnate form is problematic. The NT Trinity's symbolic "Father" is, on the other hand, not allowed despite the OT Trinity being allowed to depict the Persons through symbols.

[LBK]

The image is uncanonical as it shows Christ in a symbolic form, as an attribute of His, as a "type and shadow", and not in the fullness of His revelation as God Incarnate.

This always confuses me since it doesn't seem to apply to either the Visitation of Abraham ("OT Trinity") or the "NT Trinity" (with the Father symbolically depicted as an old man). The Visitation is (symbolically?) depicting a pre-Incarnate Christ, which seems theologically problematic just like depicting Christ as a messenger, a lamb, or some other non-Incarnate form is problematic. The NT Trinity's symbolic "Father" is, on the other hand, not allowed despite the OT Trinity being allowed to depict the Persons through symbols.

You're missing two crucial details here, which most people understandably miss:

1. The OT Trinity can be thus depicted, as it is a revealed image. Three strangers did appear to Abraham and Sarah at the Oak of Mamre. OTOH, who has seen the pre-incarnate Wisdom of God as an androgynous angel?

2. The haloes on the heads of the three angels in the OT Trinity are plain. None of them bear the holy name of God, none of them bear the nine lines forming a cross, and none of the angels bear the inscription IC XC. The absence of these motifs are crucial to the acceptance of this icon as safe and canonical, which the Church has indeed done.

[Orthodox11]

... and one that ialmisry would, erm, appreciate, of "The Holy, Right-believing Emperor, Peter the Great":

I shuddered...

[LizaSymonenko]

... and one that ialmisry would, erm, appreciate, of "The Holy, Right-believing Emperor, Peter the Great":

A competent portrait painting spoiled by some pretty basic 'shopping, but it's the thought that counts. 

I hope ialmisry does NOT appreciate it.

[Nephi]

You're missing two crucial details here, which most people understandably miss:

1. The OT Trinity can be thus depicted, as it is a revealed image. Three strangers did appear to Abraham and Sarah at the Oak of Mamre. OTOH, who has seen the pre-incarnate Wisdom of God as an androgynous angel?

Aren't the three strangers "androgynous angels?" But I understand what you mean: the Visitation is a revealed symbol, whereas the "pre-incarnate Wisdom of God" is not. Although, wouldn't the pre-incarnate Word (of course not as Wisdom, per se) be effectively revealed through the Visitation? Even if one can't particularly point out which individual stranger corresponded to the Son.

2. The haloes on the heads of the three angels in the OT Trinity are plain. None of them bear the holy name of God, none of them bear the nine lines forming a cross, and none of the angels bear the inscription IC XC. The absence of these motifs are crucial to the acceptance of this icon as safe and canonical, which the Church has indeed done.

Interesting point. So then would an Ethiopian Trinity icon, like below, be possibly "safe and canonical" from an EO perspective? Unless it falls into the same problem as #1, simply being an unrevealed image of the Trinity. I'm not sure if you've touched on this question somewhere else on this forum or not.

[LBK]

... and one that ialmisry would, erm, appreciate, of "The Holy, Right-believing Emperor, Peter the Great":

A competent portrait painting spoiled by some pretty basic 'shopping, but it's the thought that counts. 

I hope ialmisry does NOT appreciate it.

Our dear Isa is not exactly fond of that particular tsar. In his kinder moments, he refers him to "Peter the not-so-great". 

[William]

More from the Tsarebozhniki:



Note the empty throne, waiting in anticipation to be occupied again. The motifs of the empty throne and the table bearing the Gospel are features of proper icons of the Last Judgement, where, following the Second Coming and the judgement of the living and the dead, the final act of history, Christ will resume His throne, to reign over His Kingdom that has no end.

The title of this travesty, oddly enough, given its "eschatological" content, is Mother of God of the Kingdom of Great Russia.

Who is the saint sitting to the left of the throne?

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