Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 494133 times)

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2835 on: March 26, 2016, 05:16:36 PM »


This one has a whole lot of lol wut? to it.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2836 on: March 26, 2016, 11:33:47 PM »
I guess five Jesuses is no big deal.

Composite icons like the third one in Dominika's post are quite common in Russian tradition. Your post is unbecoming and irreverent.  >:(
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2837 on: March 27, 2016, 01:53:00 PM »
I guess five Jesuses is no big deal.

Composite icons like the third one in Dominika's post are quite common in Russian tradition. Your post is unbecoming and irreverent.  >:(

NT Trinities, Ancients of Days, and three dozen or so other types of icons you regularly denounce are also quite common in various Eastern Orthodox traditions.  Will you seriously argue that you do so in becoming and reverent ways?  Yes, you will, and all I've done is imitated you in fewer words. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2838 on: March 27, 2016, 03:50:27 PM »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2839 on: March 27, 2016, 08:48:45 PM »
I guess five Jesuses is no big deal.

Composite icons like the third one in Dominika's post are quite common in Russian tradition. Your post is unbecoming and irreverent.  >:(

NT Trinities, Ancients of Days, and three dozen or so other types of icons you regularly denounce are also quite common in various Eastern Orthodox traditions.  Will you seriously argue that you do so in becoming and reverent ways?  Yes, you will, and all I've done is imitated you in fewer words.

Your imitation is a failure.

Other than the presence of God the Father as an old man in the composite icon Dominika posted, there is nothing wrong at all with it. OTOH, the denunciation of uncanonical imagery is necessary, if not an obligation, in the face of the continued perpetuation of such images, including by "master iconographers" who oughta know better.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2840 on: March 27, 2016, 09:04:46 PM »
I guess five Jesuses is no big deal.

Composite icons like the third one in Dominika's post are quite common in Russian tradition. Your post is unbecoming and irreverent.  >:(

NT Trinities, Ancients of Days, and three dozen or so other types of icons you regularly denounce are also quite common in various Eastern Orthodox traditions.  Will you seriously argue that you do so in becoming and reverent ways?  Yes, you will, and all I've done is imitated you in fewer words.

Your imitation is a failure.

Other than the presence of God the Father as an old man in the composite icon Dominika posted, there is nothing wrong at all with it. OTOH, the denunciation of uncanonical imagery is necessary, if not an obligation, in the face of the continued perpetuation of such images, including by "master iconographers" who oughta know better.
LBK, who's your bishop?
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2841 on: March 27, 2016, 09:14:53 PM »
LBK, who's your bishop?

I belong to a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction. My bishop approves of what I write and say on iconography. That is all you need to know.  :police:
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2842 on: March 27, 2016, 09:48:24 PM »
LBK, who's your bishop?

I belong to a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction. My bishop approves of what I write and say on iconography. That is all you need to know.  :police:
No, that is not what I need to know. Who's your bishop, LBK? Whom can I contact to verify that what you say about yourself is true? :police:
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 09:52:33 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2843 on: March 27, 2016, 09:57:32 PM »
LBK, who's your bishop?

I belong to a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction. My bishop approves of what I write and say on iconography. That is all you need to know.  :police:
No, that is not what I need to know. Who's your bishop, LBK? Whom can I contact to verify that what you say about yourself is true? :police:

No-one on the forum, not even a moderator, can force any member to divulge personal details against their wishes which may identify their identity, place of residence, etc.

There have been cases on the forum where such details have been divulged without permission, resulting in members being warned, put on post moderation, or, in one recent case, banned.

 :police:
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2844 on: March 27, 2016, 10:01:28 PM »
I guess five Jesuses is no big deal.

Composite icons like the third one in Dominika's post are quite common in Russian tradition. Your post is unbecoming and irreverent.  >:(

NT Trinities, Ancients of Days, and three dozen or so other types of icons you regularly denounce are also quite common in various Eastern Orthodox traditions.  Will you seriously argue that you do so in becoming and reverent ways?  Yes, you will, and all I've done is imitated you in fewer words.

Your imitation is a failure.

Like a lot of your pseudotheology. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2845 on: March 27, 2016, 10:06:49 PM »
I guess five Jesuses is no big deal.

Composite icons like the third one in Dominika's post are quite common in Russian tradition. Your post is unbecoming and irreverent.  >:(

NT Trinities, Ancients of Days, and three dozen or so other types of icons you regularly denounce are also quite common in various Eastern Orthodox traditions.  Will you seriously argue that you do so in becoming and reverent ways?  Yes, you will, and all I've done is imitated you in fewer words.

Your imitation is a failure.

Like a lot of your pseudotheology.

Please provide examples of my errors, from the liturgical, patristic, conciliar and scriptural tradition of the EO Church.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2846 on: March 27, 2016, 10:19:24 PM »
I guess five Jesuses is no big deal.

Composite icons like the third one in Dominika's post are quite common in Russian tradition. Your post is unbecoming and irreverent.  >:(

NT Trinities, Ancients of Days, and three dozen or so other types of icons you regularly denounce are also quite common in various Eastern Orthodox traditions.  Will you seriously argue that you do so in becoming and reverent ways?  Yes, you will, and all I've done is imitated you in fewer words.

Your imitation is a failure.

Like a lot of your pseudotheology.

Please provide examples of my errors, from the liturgical, patristic, conciliar and scriptural tradition of the EO Church.

Why?  Any time I've challenged you in the past, you've either ignored it and repeated yourself or disappeared until things died down enough to make it safe to resurface.  It's old. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2847 on: March 27, 2016, 10:21:31 PM »
I guess five Jesuses is no big deal.

Composite icons like the third one in Dominika's post are quite common in Russian tradition. Your post is unbecoming and irreverent.  >:(

NT Trinities, Ancients of Days, and three dozen or so other types of icons you regularly denounce are also quite common in various Eastern Orthodox traditions.  Will you seriously argue that you do so in becoming and reverent ways?  Yes, you will, and all I've done is imitated you in fewer words.

Your imitation is a failure.

Like a lot of your pseudotheology.

Please provide examples of my errors, from the liturgical, patristic, conciliar and scriptural tradition of the EO Church.

Why?  Any time I've challenged you in the past, you've either ignored it and repeated yourself or disappeared until things died down enough to make it safe to resurface.  It's old.

IOW, you and PtA simply griping, offering nothing of substance. Not the first time.  ::)
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2848 on: March 27, 2016, 10:23:00 PM »
LBK, who's your bishop?

I belong to a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction. My bishop approves of what I write and say on iconography. That is all you need to know.  :police:
No, that is not what I need to know. Who's your bishop, LBK? Whom can I contact to verify that what you say about yourself is true? :police:

No-one on the forum, not even a moderator, can force any member to divulge personal details against their wishes which may identify their identity, place of residence, etc.
And yet you will hide behind your anonymity whenever someone calls your self-proclaimed authority into question. You have no authority to dogmatize your view of icons except for that which you claim for yourself, and as long as you continue to hide behind your online anonymity, you will have no more authority than what you claim for yourself. I've not made any great effort to hide my affiliation and place of residence. I'm sure, then, that anyone who does at least a cursory search of my posts will know that I live in Oregon, USA, and that Archbishop Benjamin of the OCA Diocese of the West is my bishop. I'm not even trying to claim any authority for myself beyond that which has been given me. Nobody's forcing you to divulge this information about yourself, but it is quite telling how ardently you defend your secrecy and the secrecy of your sources while at the same time proclaiming yourself an expert on all things iconographic.

There have been cases on the forum where such details have been divulged without permission, resulting in members being warned, put on post moderation, or, in one recent case, banned.
And there have also been cases where persons were instructed by the moderators to cite their sources with refusal to comply resulting in similar penalties. Maybe others here will defer to your "expert" authority on icons because what you say looks reasonable on the surface, but your steadfast refusal to name your sources does nothing to persuade those who question your "authority" to define the canonical reasons why some icons are unacceptable. To us you're just another nameless person on the Internet who loves to pontificate on a few pet subjects and bludgeon others into submission by the forcefulness of your rhetoric.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 10:30:42 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2849 on: March 27, 2016, 10:31:46 PM »
LBK, who's your bishop?

I belong to a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction. My bishop approves of what I write and say on iconography. That is all you need to know.  :police:
No, that is not what I need to know. Who's your bishop, LBK? Whom can I contact to verify that what you say about yourself is true? :police:

No-one on the forum, not even a moderator, can force any member to divulge personal details against their wishes which may identify their identity, place of residence, etc.
And yet you will hide behind your anonymity whenever someone calls your self-proclaimed authority into question. You have no authority to dogmatize your view of icons except for that which you claim for yourself, and as long as you continue to hide behind your online anonymity, you will have no more authority than what you claim for yourself. I've not made any great effort to hide my affiliation and place of residence. I'm sure, then, that anyone who does at least a cursory search of my posts will know that I live in Oregon, USA, and that Archbishop Benjamin of the OCA Diocese of the West is my bishop. I'm not even trying to claim any authority for myself beyond that which has been given me. Nobody's forcing you to divulge this information about yourself, but it is quite telling how ardently you defend your secrecy and the secrecy of your sources while at the same time proclaiming yourself an expert on all things iconographic.

There have been cases on the forum where such details have been divulged without permission, resulting in members being warned, put on post moderation, or, in one recent case, banned.
And there have also been cases where persons voluntarily divulged information at least about their sources so as to establish their authority on a subject. Maybe others here will defer to your "expert" authority on icons because what you say looks reasonable on the surface, but your steadfast refusal to name your sources does nothing to persuade those who question your "authority" to define the canonical reasons why some icons are unacceptable.

1.What personal information you choose to divulge on this forum is your concern. I have chosen otherwise, as is my right and privilege, and you cannot force me to do so.

2. A great many of my posts on iconography over the years indeed quote sources from the patristic, conciliar, historical and especially liturgical traditions of the Church, yet even these are accused as "merely my interpretation" by you and others, for reasons best known to yourselves.

3. It is only fair that every forum member, including you, be compelled to provide a full bibliography for the posts they make on doctrinal and theological matters, if you expect my posts to come under such high scrutiny. 
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2850 on: March 27, 2016, 10:48:02 PM »
LBK, who's your bishop?

I belong to a canonical Orthodox jurisdiction. My bishop approves of what I write and say on iconography. That is all you need to know.  :police:
No, that is not what I need to know. Who's your bishop, LBK? Whom can I contact to verify that what you say about yourself is true? :police:

No-one on the forum, not even a moderator, can force any member to divulge personal details against their wishes which may identify their identity, place of residence, etc.
And yet you will hide behind your anonymity whenever someone calls your self-proclaimed authority into question. You have no authority to dogmatize your view of icons except for that which you claim for yourself, and as long as you continue to hide behind your online anonymity, you will have no more authority than what you claim for yourself. I've not made any great effort to hide my affiliation and place of residence. I'm sure, then, that anyone who does at least a cursory search of my posts will know that I live in Oregon, USA, and that Archbishop Benjamin of the OCA Diocese of the West is my bishop. I'm not even trying to claim any authority for myself beyond that which has been given me. Nobody's forcing you to divulge this information about yourself, but it is quite telling how ardently you defend your secrecy and the secrecy of your sources while at the same time proclaiming yourself an expert on all things iconographic.

There have been cases on the forum where such details have been divulged without permission, resulting in members being warned, put on post moderation, or, in one recent case, banned.
And there have also been cases where persons voluntarily divulged information at least about their sources so as to establish their authority on a subject. Maybe others here will defer to your "expert" authority on icons because what you say looks reasonable on the surface, but your steadfast refusal to name your sources does nothing to persuade those who question your "authority" to define the canonical reasons why some icons are unacceptable.

1.What personal information you choose to divulge on this forum is your concern. I have chosen otherwise, as is my right and privilege, and you cannot force me to do so.

2. A great many of my posts on iconography over the years indeed quote sources from the patristic, conciliar, historical and especially liturgical traditions of the Church, yet even these are accused as "merely my interpretation" by you and others, for reasons best known to yourselves.
Because you never cite authorities outside yourself even for the novel interpretations of the patristic, conciliar, historical and liturgical traditions that you put forward.

3. It is only fair that every forum member, including you, be compelled to provide a full bibliography for the posts they make on doctrinal and theological matters, if you expect my posts to come under such high scrutiny.
I don't think anyone's asking anything more of you than we ask of everyone else. BTW, you still haven't told us which Fathers support your peculiar take on lex orandi, lex credendi, that we must take our hymns and icons as proclamations of historical fact: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23871.msg1343042.html#msg1343042 (Maybe this is the challenge Mor talked about in Reply #2846 above.)
« Last Edit: March 27, 2016, 11:09:48 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2851 on: March 27, 2016, 11:10:03 PM »
Lex orandi, lex credendi means we pray what we believe, and we believe what we pray. Simple, really.

This post bears repeating:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23871.msg1342349.html#msg1342349

Why should we believe anything the Church teaches, Peter? Because archeology backs it up? Because this noted authority or that actor who plays one on TV says so?

Why believe in a crucified God? Why believe in a virgin conceiving and giving birth, and to God Himself? Why believe that bread and wine become the Body and Blood of the Christ? There are plenty of good excuses not to, it hasn't been scientifically reproduced in a laboratory, the archeological evidence is sketchy at best, and there are no shortage of "other" explanations for just about everything.

If it were possible for God to become incarnate, to be conceived and born as a human Child from a virgin "who knew not a man", while still maintaining full divinity and omniscience, to suffer, die, rise from the dead, and ascend into heaven, why is it so impossible that the girl God chose to bear His Son in the flesh could enter the Holy of Holies? Is the will and power of God subordinate to the mores and customs of the Levitical priesthood?

Let's also not forget that when the 40-day-old Christ was presented to the Temple, Orthodox tradition, both in hymnography and iconography, shows the Child's mother presenting Him, not St Joseph, contrary to the Jewish custom of the father presenting the child. It is also significant that, in St Luke's Gospel, Symeon addresses the Mother of God, not Joseph, saying to her: “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” Does this mean you also dispute the hymnographic and iconographic depiction of the Virgin presenting her Son to the Temple, as it is contrary to Jewish practice of the time?

We believe that the Orthodox Church faithfully preserves the Apostolic witness to the revealed God, or we don't. Not the conjectured god, not the reasoned god (or even "reasonable" god), not the god of guesswork, but God as revealed in Christ Jesus. If we don't believe this or cannot accept this, then we are, eventually, going to have to deal with the idea that we might be in the wrong place.

At some point, you either come to terms and accept what the Church teaches, or you don't, because we believe that the Church teaches what Christ revealed. We are not Gnostics, we don't believe that the "real" truth is hidden from the rabble and only known by the elite, an "inner circle", a church within the Church who do not have to believe as the others do, because they "know better".

Many a saint and Father says humility is the highest virtue. Which is more humble, Peter? "I know better"?  Or "I accept the teachings of the Church"? I can't see where anyone can go wrong by listening to, and absorbing, the hymnography of the Church. The truth is in our hymns and prayers. As long as you let it change your life, you will find salvation.

I have presented the testimony of the Church on this matter through her prayers. These hymns and prayers are ancient, and are from a feast of the highest rank of importance the Church ascribes, a rank exceeded only by Pascha. For you to suggest we don't have to believe the Virgin actually dwelt in the Holy of Holies is extremely problematic, particularly in the face of St. Paul's admonition that we should strive to be "of one mind". The clear proclamation of the Virgin entering the Holy of Holies in hymnography (which, like iconography, represent the consensus patrum of the Church) elevates this event above the realm of theologoumena (theological opinions), and into the realm of doctrine.

Thank God we do have the hymnody and prayers of the Church. They helped preserve the Church through oppression and persecution, and will also preserve us from intellectual/rationalistic oppression.

As for the post you quoted, I do find it interesting that your fellow moderator used exactly the same approach as I often do, quoting hymnody in several posts on a couple of very recent threads, to counter the views of other forum members which he saw as erroneous. An example:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.msg1388200.html#msg1388200

I don't know. Maybe it's my modern sensibilities or something but I find it really bizarre and untoward to speculate on the state of the Theotokos' hymen. It's odd to me.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.

Quote
As the fire rested on the bush and the bush was not burnt, so God descended and rested on the Virgin.  He was pleased to take flesh from her and he did not break the seal of her virginity.

"What have I to do with you, O Jews?" Mary answered and said.  "I am kept sealed and I am no adulteress.  My Lord was pleased with me and I became his mother, and he sucked milk like an infant."

May all generations among all peoples call Mary blessed, who was worthy to become Mother to the Son of God.  He came forth from her while the seals of her virginity were kept unbroken.  Behold, the day of her remembrance is honoured in heaven and on earth. 

Like a flawless pearl, set in the crown of the king, is the Holy Virgin Theotokos: it is turned to all sides and its brightness shines like the sun.  Behold, the day of her remembrance is honoured in heaven and on earth. 


Qolo, Matins, Monday

Quote
Glory to the Son of God, who was pleased to come forth from the Blessed Holy Virgin.  By her ear she received him and she bore him in her womb.  He came forth from her womb and it remained sealed, confounding the unbelievers.  Glory to him who so humbled himself, glory to him who became a son of man, glory to him who saved his Church and, behold, she sings praise.

Qolo, Vespers, Wednesday

The just of old gave fair and lovely names to Mary, the Daughter of David, the Holy Virgin: Ezekiel the exile called her the Closed Door, Solomon (called her) the Garden Enclosed and the Sealed Fountain, David named her a City and Christ the Blade which shot up within it without seed.  He has become the Food of the nations and he has exalted her memory in heaven and on earth. 

Qolo, First Nocturn, Midnight Vigil, Wednesday

Glory to him who rested in the womb and dwelt there as he willed in his mercy.  Glory to him who came forth from the womb and its virginal condition was not corrupted.  Glory to him and to him who sent him, (glory to him) who humbled himself for our salvation and became man of his own will, that he might make us sons of his Father and partakers of his Holy Spirit.

Blessed are you, Mary, who gave birth to the living Son of God.  Blessed are you, Precious Vessel, in whom the Merchant descended and dwelt.  Blessed are you, Palace of Perfection, who received the Architect of the heights.  You bore him and your virginity was preserved, you brought him forth and remained pure.  Blessed is the Lord who came forth from you.


Qolo, Matins, Wednesday

Quote
O Solomon, fair child, what is that garden of which you sang, which was closed and sealed in its virginity?  "It is Mary from whom came forth the Gardener who planted Paradise."

Qolo, Matins, Thursday

Will you take Mor Ephrem to task over this as you are with me?
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2852 on: March 27, 2016, 11:15:19 PM »
Lex orandi, lex credendi means we pray what we believe, and we believe what we pray. Simple, really.

This post bears repeating:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23871.msg1342349.html#msg1342349

Why should we believe anything the Church teaches, Peter? Because archeology backs it up? Because this noted authority or that actor who plays one on TV says so?

Why believe in a crucified God? Why believe in a virgin conceiving and giving birth, and to God Himself? Why believe that bread and wine become the Body and Blood of the Christ? There are plenty of good excuses not to, it hasn't been scientifically reproduced in a laboratory, the archeological evidence is sketchy at best, and there are no shortage of "other" explanations for just about everything.

If it were possible for God to become incarnate, to be conceived and born as a human Child from a virgin "who knew not a man", while still maintaining full divinity and omniscience, to suffer, die, rise from the dead, and ascend into heaven, why is it so impossible that the girl God chose to bear His Son in the flesh could enter the Holy of Holies? Is the will and power of God subordinate to the mores and customs of the Levitical priesthood?

Let's also not forget that when the 40-day-old Christ was presented to the Temple, Orthodox tradition, both in hymnography and iconography, shows the Child's mother presenting Him, not St Joseph, contrary to the Jewish custom of the father presenting the child. It is also significant that, in St Luke's Gospel, Symeon addresses the Mother of God, not Joseph, saying to her: “Behold, this Child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against (yes, a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.” Does this mean you also dispute the hymnographic and iconographic depiction of the Virgin presenting her Son to the Temple, as it is contrary to Jewish practice of the time?

We believe that the Orthodox Church faithfully preserves the Apostolic witness to the revealed God, or we don't. Not the conjectured god, not the reasoned god (or even "reasonable" god), not the god of guesswork, but God as revealed in Christ Jesus. If we don't believe this or cannot accept this, then we are, eventually, going to have to deal with the idea that we might be in the wrong place.

At some point, you either come to terms and accept what the Church teaches, or you don't, because we believe that the Church teaches what Christ revealed. We are not Gnostics, we don't believe that the "real" truth is hidden from the rabble and only known by the elite, an "inner circle", a church within the Church who do not have to believe as the others do, because they "know better".

Many a saint and Father says humility is the highest virtue. Which is more humble, Peter? "I know better"?  Or "I accept the teachings of the Church"? I can't see where anyone can go wrong by listening to, and absorbing, the hymnography of the Church. The truth is in our hymns and prayers. As long as you let it change your life, you will find salvation.

I have presented the testimony of the Church on this matter through her prayers. These hymns and prayers are ancient, and are from a feast of the highest rank of importance the Church ascribes, a rank exceeded only by Pascha. For you to suggest we don't have to believe the Virgin actually dwelt in the Holy of Holies is extremely problematic, particularly in the face of St. Paul's admonition that we should strive to be "of one mind". The clear proclamation of the Virgin entering the Holy of Holies in hymnography (which, like iconography, represent the consensus patrum of the Church) elevates this event above the realm of theologoumena (theological opinions), and into the realm of doctrine.

Thank God we do have the hymnody and prayers of the Church. They helped preserve the Church through oppression and persecution, and will also preserve us from intellectual/rationalistic oppression.

As for the post you quoted, I do find it interesting that your fellow moderator used exactly the same approach as I often do, quoting hymnody in several posts on a couple of very recent threads, to counter the views of other forum members which he saw as erroneous. An example:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.msg1388200.html#msg1388200

I don't know. Maybe it's my modern sensibilities or something but I find it really bizarre and untoward to speculate on the state of the Theotokos' hymen. It's odd to me.

People who insist on hueing to the Protoevangelium started it. Most people reading the Bible or listening to the Liturgy on this would assume that Jesus was not in fact teleported out of her womb in a cloud of light.

Quote
As the fire rested on the bush and the bush was not burnt, so God descended and rested on the Virgin.  He was pleased to take flesh from her and he did not break the seal of her virginity.

"What have I to do with you, O Jews?" Mary answered and said.  "I am kept sealed and I am no adulteress.  My Lord was pleased with me and I became his mother, and he sucked milk like an infant."

May all generations among all peoples call Mary blessed, who was worthy to become Mother to the Son of God.  He came forth from her while the seals of her virginity were kept unbroken.  Behold, the day of her remembrance is honoured in heaven and on earth. 

Like a flawless pearl, set in the crown of the king, is the Holy Virgin Theotokos: it is turned to all sides and its brightness shines like the sun.  Behold, the day of her remembrance is honoured in heaven and on earth. 


Qolo, Matins, Monday

Quote
Glory to the Son of God, who was pleased to come forth from the Blessed Holy Virgin.  By her ear she received him and she bore him in her womb.  He came forth from her womb and it remained sealed, confounding the unbelievers.  Glory to him who so humbled himself, glory to him who became a son of man, glory to him who saved his Church and, behold, she sings praise.

Qolo, Vespers, Wednesday

The just of old gave fair and lovely names to Mary, the Daughter of David, the Holy Virgin: Ezekiel the exile called her the Closed Door, Solomon (called her) the Garden Enclosed and the Sealed Fountain, David named her a City and Christ the Blade which shot up within it without seed.  He has become the Food of the nations and he has exalted her memory in heaven and on earth. 

Qolo, First Nocturn, Midnight Vigil, Wednesday

Glory to him who rested in the womb and dwelt there as he willed in his mercy.  Glory to him who came forth from the womb and its virginal condition was not corrupted.  Glory to him and to him who sent him, (glory to him) who humbled himself for our salvation and became man of his own will, that he might make us sons of his Father and partakers of his Holy Spirit.

Blessed are you, Mary, who gave birth to the living Son of God.  Blessed are you, Precious Vessel, in whom the Merchant descended and dwelt.  Blessed are you, Palace of Perfection, who received the Architect of the heights.  You bore him and your virginity was preserved, you brought him forth and remained pure.  Blessed is the Lord who came forth from you.


Qolo, Matins, Wednesday

Quote
O Solomon, fair child, what is that garden of which you sang, which was closed and sealed in its virginity?  "It is Mary from whom came forth the Gardener who planted Paradise."

Qolo, Matins, Thursday

Will you take Mor Ephrem to task over this as you are with me?
LBK, I think you still have a moderatorial challenge to answer. Until you answer that, I have nothing more to say to you. Once again, here is that formal challenge: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23871.msg1343042.html#msg1343042
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2853 on: March 27, 2016, 11:27:47 PM »

LBK, I think you still have a moderatorial challenge to answer. Until you answer that, I have nothing more to say to you. Once again, here is that formal challenge: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,23871.msg1343042.html#msg1343042

I cannot be compelled to divulge personal details of my own on the open forum, or of others who have not given their permission for me to do so. Moreover, the "proofs" sought in that sea of green would include several decades' worth of homilies and other pastoral teachings on the feast of the Entry into the Temple (and other feasts) I have been witness to in my time in the Church, including by priests now deceased. I regret that I do not have audio recordings or transcripts of them.

It is a great pity that your animosity towards what I post has yet again led you to act this way.  :(
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2854 on: March 28, 2016, 09:13:02 AM »
How is naming your bishop revealing any personal information? My bishop is Bishop Thomas, but that doesn't tell anyone any information about me other than I live in the Mid-Atlantic region of the US.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2855 on: March 28, 2016, 10:38:20 AM »
How is naming your bishop revealing any personal information? My bishop is Bishop Thomas, but that doesn't tell anyone any information about me other than I live in the Mid-Atlantic region of the US.
Because not everyone wants to tell where they live.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2856 on: March 28, 2016, 10:39:41 AM »
How is naming your bishop revealing any personal information? My bishop is Bishop Thomas, but that doesn't tell anyone any information about me other than I live in the Mid-Atlantic region of the US.
Because not everyone wants to tell where they live.
*shrugs*

I guess so, but she has already told us she lives comment removed --Mina, so it isn't like it is a mystery where she lives.

Unless you can show exactly where LBK said this, I am obliged to remove this comment based on previous history of requesting this information may not be divulged.

Thank you!

Mina
« Last Edit: March 28, 2016, 07:20:18 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2857 on: March 28, 2016, 03:04:06 PM »
As for the post you quoted, I do find it interesting that your fellow moderator used exactly the same approach as I often do, quoting hymnody in several posts on a couple of very recent threads, to counter the views of other forum members which he saw as erroneous. An example:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.msg1388200.html#msg1388200

...

Will you take Mor Ephrem to task over this as you are with me?

Why should he?  Mor Ephrem doesn't make up his theology.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2858 on: March 29, 2016, 09:34:14 AM »
As for the post you quoted, I do find it interesting that your fellow moderator used exactly the same approach as I often do, quoting hymnody in several posts on a couple of very recent threads, to counter the views of other forum members which he saw as erroneous. An example:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,68521.msg1388200.html#msg1388200

...

Will you take Mor Ephrem to task over this as you are with me?

Why should he?  Mor Ephrem doesn't make up his theology.

Repeating an allegation doesn't make it true. Especially when you've provided no evidence supporting it.

I have quoted hymnography to support the Church's teachings in many a post, yet have been criticized for doing so. Mor Ephrem quotes hymns on recent threads to support certain teachings, without a murmur. The double standard is clear.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 09:39:52 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2859 on: March 30, 2016, 10:43:13 AM »


This one has a whole lot of lol wut? to it.

I am more interested about the above.

I think LKB's opinions are authoritative and are worth learning about/considering. I am not in a position to state that she is an authority (but it wouldn't surprise me).

I do not think the bickering that is going on is useful.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2860 on: March 30, 2016, 02:43:34 PM »
I am not in a position to state that she is an authority (but it wouldn't surprise me).
I do not think the bickering that is going on is useful.

You wouldn't be surprised she is a bishop?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2861 on: March 30, 2016, 09:34:28 PM »
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2862 on: March 30, 2016, 10:01:31 PM »
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 10:02:20 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2863 on: March 30, 2016, 10:11:49 PM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2864 on: March 30, 2016, 10:16:18 PM »
You have to admit, that bug is adorable.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2865 on: March 30, 2016, 10:28:54 PM »
I'm more troubled by John the Baptist's man-bun or whatever he's got going on.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2866 on: March 30, 2016, 11:18:40 PM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
;D

I've read this three times now and each time I laughed.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2867 on: March 31, 2016, 12:50:34 AM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
You can eat bugs during Lent.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2868 on: March 31, 2016, 02:17:40 AM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
You can eat bugs during Lent.

But aren't they animals?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2869 on: March 31, 2016, 02:33:41 AM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
You can eat bugs during Lent.

But aren't they animals?
They're invertebrates just like clams, shrimp, and crabs. You can eat invertebrates. I think I ate an ant today.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2016, 02:37:24 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2870 on: March 31, 2016, 02:37:20 AM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
You can eat bugs during Lent.

But aren't they animals?
They're invertebrates just like clams, shrimp, and crabs. You can eat invertebrates.

Is apple cobbler an invertebrate?
My only weakness is, well, never mind

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2871 on: March 31, 2016, 02:37:49 AM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
You can eat bugs during Lent.

But aren't they animals?
They're invertebrates just like clams, shrimp, and crabs. You can eat invertebrates.

Is apple cobbler an invertebrate?
Apple cobbler is a fruit.
Not all who wander are lost.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2872 on: March 31, 2016, 02:39:35 AM »
Yay! :)
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2873 on: March 31, 2016, 02:45:52 AM »
Yay! :)
And if the apples in the cobbler have maggots, you can eat them, too.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2874 on: March 31, 2016, 02:47:30 AM »
Thanks, I'll just... uh... No.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2875 on: April 01, 2016, 12:05:16 AM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
You can eat bugs during Lent.

But aren't they animals?
They're invertebrates just like clams, shrimp, and crabs. You can eat invertebrates. I think I ate an ant today.

We can eat shellfish?!

Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2876 on: April 01, 2016, 10:07:35 PM »

"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2877 on: April 01, 2016, 11:26:29 PM »
Is that supposed to be Jesus making a bug friend or John the Baptist about to have dinner?
You can eat bugs during Lent.

But aren't they animals?
They're invertebrates just like clams, shrimp, and crabs. You can eat invertebrates. I think I ate an ant today.

We can eat shellfish?!


Yup.
Not all who wander are lost.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2878 on: April 09, 2016, 08:35:09 AM »
A bit schlock
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2879 on: April 09, 2016, 10:26:19 AM »
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)