Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 492140 times)

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2475 on: January 10, 2015, 02:45:31 AM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.

The "young St. Joseph" is a Counter-Reformation phenomenon, tied up in Spanish colonialism. He was reconceptualized as a young, vigorous protector when he was selected as the patron of the conquest and conversion of Mexico in 1555, and was named patron of the Kingdom of Spain in 1679 by King Charles II, displacing the traditional St. James ("Santiago"). This aspect of his imagery is detailed in Creating the Cult of St. Joseph: Art and Gender in the Spanish Empire by Charlene Villaseñor Black. The introduction is available online.

My own experience of Catholic holy cards and devotional images, mostly late 19th and early 20th century, is a somewhat feminized St. Joseph. Well, to be honest, everyone looks feminized in the devotional art of that period, which is - to put it mildly - not my favorite.  :)

The cult of St. Joseph was co-opted from a Mexican god and used to pacify the Aztecs in Mexico.  From one of the reviews:

Quote
gradual attribution to Saint Joseph of characteristics previously associated with a native Mexican deity, Tlaloc, the “god of the rains,” was a means to convert the native Mexican population to Catholicism.
And Ephesus went from a center of Artemis/Diana worship to a center of Theotokos veneration and the location of the Council that codified her status. What's your point? ;)

The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to subjugate nations and satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.  In another thread, I suggested that Pope Francis canonize them.

I think the Roman Catholics should canonize those who were killed by the sword in their conquests of the Americas.

O Holy Incas, Mayas and Aztecs slaughtered by the conquistadors, have mercy on us.

Or they can canonise the murderers.  It's not like the EO haven't done so before.  

Seriously, why?

True, the RCs ought to canonize the conquistadors also.  Without them, we'd have no Pope Francis.   :D

I said this back when I had nominal respect for Mor.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 02:47:51 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2476 on: January 10, 2015, 02:46:49 AM »
So what exactly are you discussing right now? Just curious.

Why the depiction of St. Joseph in iconography is schlock to some people and nominally acceptable to others.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2477 on: January 10, 2015, 02:48:37 AM »

The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.
Maybe not, but what of the argument that they co-opted the Mother of God to satisfy the pagans of Ephesus? These polemics go in more ways that one.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2478 on: January 10, 2015, 02:50:32 AM »
So what exactly are you discussing right now? Just curious.

Why the depiction of St. Joseph in certain ways which are contrary to Orthodox teaching and tradition in iconography is schlock to some people and nominally acceptable to others.

Fixed it for you.  :)
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2479 on: January 10, 2015, 02:51:52 AM »

The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.
Maybe not, but what of the argument that they co-opted the Mother of God to satisfy the pagans of Ephesus? These polemics go in more ways that one.

How was that accomplished?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 02:57:38 AM by SolEX01 »

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2480 on: January 10, 2015, 02:52:46 AM »
So what exactly are you discussing right now? Just curious.

Why the depiction of St. Joseph in certain ways which are contrary to Orthodox teaching and tradition in iconography is schlock to some people and nominally acceptable to others.

Fixed it for you.  :)

The original text was a gross oversimplification of the topic.  Thanks for the clarification.   :)

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2481 on: January 10, 2015, 02:54:51 AM »
So what exactly are you discussing right now? Just curious.

Why the depiction of St. Joseph in certain ways which are contrary to Orthodox teaching and tradition in iconography is schlock to some people and nominally acceptable to others.

Fixed it for you.  :)

The original text was a gross oversimplification of the topic.  Thanks for the clarification.   :)

No problem. I didn't want folks to think that St Joseph shouldn't be an iconographic subject.  ;)
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2482 on: January 10, 2015, 03:03:11 AM »
Surely there's importance in the fact that God saw fit to place his Son into a husband-and-wife type of family?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2483 on: January 10, 2015, 03:07:45 AM »
Surely there's importance in the fact that God saw fit to place his Son into a husband-and-wife type of family?

Moses had parents; however, he was raised by Pharaoh's daughter, who paid Moses' mother to nurse him, and adopted by his wife's family.  There's no mention of Moses' father anywhere in the Bible.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2484 on: January 10, 2015, 03:11:57 AM »

The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.
Maybe not, but what of the argument that they co-opted the Mother of God to satisfy the pagans of Ephesus? These polemics go in more ways that one.

How was that accomplished?
By insisting on calling her the Mother of God and using other titles to take her as near to being a goddess as possible. The pressure from the fanatics of Ephesus helped to bias the Council neatly against Nestorius' very valid concerns.

I'm not saying I believe all that, but if you're going to go around libeling the Catholic Church then you'd had better be prepared to face the libels thrown against the Orthodox.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2485 on: January 10, 2015, 03:14:30 AM »
Scripture clearly describes St. Joesph as Christ's father. The Orthodox seem to come close to denying this with their insistence as reading "father" as something closer to "house man."
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2486 on: January 10, 2015, 03:20:44 AM »
Scripture clearly describes St. Joesph as Christ's father. The Orthodox seem to come close to denying this with their insistence as reading "father" as something closer to "house man."

Orthodoxy does not subscribe to sola scriptura. Our traditions, which include scripture, and most notably hymns and icons, clearly express what is taught about St Joseph.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 03:21:36 AM by LBK »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2487 on: January 10, 2015, 03:23:36 AM »
Quote
By insisting on calling her the Mother of God and using other titles to take her as near to being a goddess as possible.

Is Christ not God?

If He is, then calling His Mother Theotokos is not only permissible, but necessary. The matter was sorted out many centuries ago, so why continue trying to invent a creaky, wobbly wheel?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2488 on: January 10, 2015, 03:24:36 AM »
Quote
By insisting on calling her the Mother of God and using other titles to take her as near to being a goddess as possible.

Is Christ not God?

If He is, then calling His Mother Theotokos is not only permissible, but necessary. The matter was sorted out many centuries ago, so why continue trying to invent a creaky, wobbly wheel?
I'm not. I'm just counteracting Sol's silliness with more silliness.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2489 on: January 10, 2015, 03:25:25 AM »
Scripture clearly describes St. Joesph as Christ's father. The Orthodox seem to come close to denying this with their insistence as reading "father" as something closer to "house man."

Orthodoxy does not subscribe to sola scriptura. Our traditions, which include scripture, and most notably hymns and icons, clearly express what is taught about St Joseph.
Yes, but if they contradict Scripture, then all those hymns and icons are just so much dross.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2490 on: January 10, 2015, 03:33:37 AM »
Surely there's importance in the fact that God saw fit to place his Son into a husband-and-wife type of family?

Moses had parents; however, he was raised by Pharaoh's daughter, who paid Moses' mother to nurse him, and adopted by his wife's family.  There's no mention of Moses' father anywhere in the Bible.

Besides being irrelevant (do you believe Moses to be the son of God?), you're wrong. The book of Exodus mentions Moses's father, whose name was Amram.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2491 on: January 10, 2015, 03:38:52 AM »
Surely there's importance in the fact that God saw fit to place his Son into a husband-and-wife type of family?

Moses had parents; however, he was raised by Pharaoh's daughter, who paid Moses' mother to nurse him, and adopted by his wife's family.  There's no mention of Moses' father anywhere in the Bible.

Besides being irrelevant (do you believe Moses to be the son of God?), you're wrong. The book of Exodus mentions Moses's father, whose name was Amram.

Moses pre-figures Christ (I had a crisis on this topic that I was able to resolve thanks to the forum's help).  Amram is mentioned twice in the Bible (thanks for the correction).  St. Joseph (the one betrothed to the Virgin Mary) is mentioned only 8 times.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2492 on: January 10, 2015, 03:43:35 AM »
Surely there's importance in the fact that God saw fit to place his Son into a husband-and-wife type of family?

Moses had parents; however, he was raised by Pharaoh's daughter, who paid Moses' mother to nurse him, and adopted by his wife's family.  There's no mention of Moses' father anywhere in the Bible.

Besides being irrelevant (do you believe Moses to be the son of God?), you're wrong. The book of Exodus mentions Moses's father, whose name was Amram.

Moses pre-figures Christ (I had a crisis on this topic that I was able to resolve thanks to the forum's help).  Amram is mentioned twice in the Bible (thanks for the correction).  St. Joseph (the one betrothed to the Virgin Mary) is mentioned only 8 times.
And the Theotokos is only mentioned like 10. What's your point?
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2493 on: January 10, 2015, 03:44:29 AM »
Surely there's importance in the fact that God saw fit to place his Son into a husband-and-wife type of family?

Moses had parents; however, he was raised by Pharaoh's daughter, who paid Moses' mother to nurse him, and adopted by his wife's family.  There's no mention of Moses' father anywhere in the Bible.

Besides being irrelevant (do you believe Moses to be the son of God?), you're wrong. The book of Exodus mentions Moses's father, whose name was Amram.

Moses pre-figures Christ (I had a crisis on this topic that I was able to resolve thanks to the forum's help).  Amram is mentioned twice in the Bible (thanks for the correction).  St. Joseph (the one betrothed to the Virgin Mary) is mentioned only 8 times.

Pharaoh's daughter prefigures the Theotokos? I'm still trying to see your point.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2494 on: January 10, 2015, 03:45:54 AM »
Surely there's importance in the fact that God saw fit to place his Son into a husband-and-wife type of family?

Moses had parents; however, he was raised by Pharaoh's daughter, who paid Moses' mother to nurse him, and adopted by his wife's family.  There's no mention of Moses' father anywhere in the Bible.

Besides being irrelevant (do you believe Moses to be the son of God?), you're wrong. The book of Exodus mentions Moses's father, whose name was Amram.

Moses delivering the Israelites from bondage is a type of Christ, delivering mankind from the bondage of sin and death. The Exodus is a type of salvation, enacted through Christian baptism. These themes are openly expressed in Orthodox hymnography, including that of Great Lent and the feasts of the Cross.

Amram is a background figure, whereas Moses' mother is given prominence, she being a prefiguration of the Mother of God. Therefore, Joseph, prefigured in Amram, is also a secondary figure to the prominence of the Virgin.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 03:46:53 AM by LBK »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2495 on: January 10, 2015, 03:50:59 AM »
Therefore, Joseph, prefigured in Amram, is also a secondary figure to the prominence of the Virgin.
And were is such speculation confirmed by an official source?
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2496 on: January 10, 2015, 03:52:20 AM »
Because a biblical figure is a type of Christ in some ways does not make him and his life a blueprint for Christ's. St. David was a type of Christ, St. Joseph was, and many other Hebrew figures -- each in a certain way or ways. Unless someone can explain to me how Moses's being adopted by a single mother is important to understanding what Christ is, then I'll continue to find the mention irrelevant.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2497 on: January 10, 2015, 03:56:43 AM »
Because a biblical figure is a type of Christ in some ways does not make him and his life a blueprint for Christ's. St. David was a type of Christ, St. Joseph was, and many other Hebrew figures -- each in a certain way or ways. Unless someone can explain to me how Moses's being adopted by a single mother is important to understanding what Christ is, then I'll continue to find the mention irrelevant.

The OT only makes sense in the light of the NT. I suggest taking the time to become familiar with what the hymns and prayers of the church have to say about these matters. If I, a mere pleb, could learn about these things through doing so, anyone can.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2498 on: January 10, 2015, 04:01:49 AM »
Because a biblical figure is a type of Christ in some ways does not make him and his life a blueprint for Christ's. St. David was a type of Christ, St. Joseph was, and many other Hebrew figures -- each in a certain way or ways. Unless someone can explain to me how Moses's being adopted by a single mother is important to understanding what Christ is, then I'll continue to find the mention irrelevant.

Did you not read my post on why Moses is a type of Christ?  ???
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2499 on: January 10, 2015, 04:03:31 AM »
Because a biblical figure is a type of Christ in some ways does not make him and his life a blueprint for Christ's. St. David was a type of Christ, St. Joseph was, and many other Hebrew figures -- each in a certain way or ways. Unless someone can explain to me how Moses's being adopted by a single mother is important to understanding what Christ is, then I'll continue to find the mention irrelevant.

You can always ask your priest.   :)

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2500 on: January 10, 2015, 04:07:13 AM »
Surely there's importance in the fact that God saw fit to place his Son into a husband-and-wife type of family?

Moses had parents; however, he was raised by Pharaoh's daughter, who paid Moses' mother to nurse him, and adopted by his wife's family.  There's no mention of Moses' father anywhere in the Bible.

Besides being irrelevant (do you believe Moses to be the son of God?), you're wrong. The book of Exodus mentions Moses's father, whose name was Amram.

Moses pre-figures Christ (I had a crisis on this topic that I was able to resolve thanks to the forum's help).  Amram is mentioned twice in the Bible (thanks for the correction).  St. Joseph (the one betrothed to the Virgin Mary) is mentioned only 8 times.

Pharaoh's daughter prefigures the Theotokos? I'm still trying to see your point.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2501 on: January 10, 2015, 04:29:29 AM »
And were is such speculation confirmed by an official source?
[/quote]

What would satisfy you as an "official source"? Hymns and icons obviously aren't good enough for you.

Yes, but if they contradict Scripture, then all those hymns and icons are just so much dross.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 04:29:52 AM by LBK »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2502 on: January 10, 2015, 05:41:36 AM »
I don't really care anymore. It's pointless thing for me to object to.

I'm sorry for being rude to you, LBK, Sol.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2503 on: January 10, 2015, 12:46:34 PM »
Why do things like filioque and St. Joseph's cult originate in Spain?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2504 on: January 10, 2015, 12:53:25 PM »
Yes, but if they contradict Scripture, then all those hymns and icons are just so much dross.

I'm curious if you'd really maintain that hymns and icons may contradict the Gospels (not that they do)?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 12:57:01 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2505 on: January 10, 2015, 12:54:52 PM »
The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to subjugate nations and satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.  

Yeah, they did all that without co-opting saints. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2506 on: January 10, 2015, 12:58:11 PM »
Therefore, Joseph, prefigured in Amram, is also a secondary figure to the prominence of the Virgin.
And were is such speculation confirmed by an official source?

This desire on this forum for 'sources' is problematic. I daresay that no well brought up Orthodox child, immersed in the Church, regardless of ethnic tradition would not 'know' that the Church teaches that the Exodus prefigures the coming of Christ and our Salvation from death through Christ and that St. Joseph is  secondary figure to that of the Theotokas. BUT.... the name Joseph is among the most common of Slavic baptismal names given to the first born male child ... indeed Joseph and Mary were almost always found in a family of many siblings. So, anecdotally speaking, the role of Joseph in the rearing of the Christ-child was respected and the model of the Holy Family did have a place in Orthodox cultures - at least in Eastern Europe. Any kid who was an altar server 'back in the day'  during the All Soul's Saturday litanies at most Slavic parishes will confirm the numerous repetition of those names in the parish family remembrances.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2507 on: January 10, 2015, 12:59:39 PM »
The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to subjugate nations and satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.  

Yeah, they did all that without co-opting saints. 

Picking on the Catholics for assimilating native cultural traditions is a slippery slope for us Orthodox. Yule logs anyone? Pisanky designs? Just sayin.....

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2508 on: January 10, 2015, 01:24:06 PM »
Scripture clearly describes St. Joesph as Christ's father. The Orthodox seem to come close to denying this with their insistence as reading "father" as something closer to "house man."

Not all Orthodox.  Some.  

Look, characters in the Gospels refer to Joseph as Jesus' "father" and "parent", as Mary's "betrothed" and "husband", and refer to Jesus as Joseph's "son".  But the Gospels also go to some effort to explain how he had nothing to do with the conception of Christ, how Jesus was "the son, as was supposed, of Joseph", etc., and all of that is absolutely critical, its importance cannot be overstated because it touches upon the person of Christ.  To refer to Joseph as "husband of Mary", as Jesus' "father", etc., then, is legitimate if we keep the whole testimony of the Gospels in mind because then we won't think of "husband" and "father" and "parent" in the usual sense.  There was nothing "usual" about this family.  But it was still a family, with a husband and a wife who were parents of a child.  To reduce him to a "house man", someone who was needed only to perform a role so that things would appear legitimate in the eyes of society is ultimately an affront to God, not to mention a dismissal of the testimony of Scripture and of people in the Gospels who ought to know something about what was what.  Fortunately, Orthodox tradition does not do such a thing, even if our veneration for St Joseph is not as pronounced as it became more recently in Roman Catholicism.        
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2509 on: January 10, 2015, 01:39:44 PM »
... The past is probably worse than what it written in popular secondary sources ...

Uh huh.

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I am not sure why you are bringing this up.

That you can say something like that is why I brought it up. (Altho keep in mind I stipulated sources in the modern era of academics, that is, when you were growing up. Post-modern popular secondary sources have changed in some ways, sometimes quite a bit. Yet the old presuppositions, so contentiously beaten into us during the modern era, tend to remain.)


Your continued use of modern seems to indicate that we are not communicating about the same thing. I was discussing life span and what affects it.

Uh huh: I was mimicking what you wrote except that I added probably to give me an escape pathway.

The rest of your statement: I am still growing up. I was going to get into ancient history (an area of some interest/expertise) but there is too much arguing going on and this would be off topic so I deleted it.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2510 on: January 10, 2015, 01:44:28 PM »
You're right that "modern" has too many uses not to be vague. When it comes to academics, tho, I look at it like this: The modernist school of thought, altho it has its roots in the late Victorian era, did not come into its own until maybe 1920. It became the ruling school of thought not much later, and began its work on the popular consciousness, and I call this High Modernism. Probably your father, if he went to college, was much more affected by this than you. Modernism was already fading during the '50s, and was completely overthrown in the '60s and '70s -- however, its influence is not so easy to be rid of, as it was a seminal movement and fathered everything we continue to engage in the academy and in much of society too.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2511 on: January 10, 2015, 03:53:50 PM »
Why do things like filioque and St. Joseph's cult originate in Spain?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople. 

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed.  Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism?  A few dozen?  few hundred?  few thousand?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2512 on: January 10, 2015, 03:55:17 PM »
I don't really care anymore. It's pointless thing for me to object to.

I'm sorry for being rude to you, LBK, Sol.

Apology accepted.   :)

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2513 on: January 10, 2015, 03:57:35 PM »
Why do things like filioque and St. Joseph's cult originate in Spain?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople. 

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed.  Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism?  A few dozen?  few hundred?  few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2514 on: January 10, 2015, 04:20:33 PM »
Why do things like filioque and St. Joseph's cult originate in Spain?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople. 

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed.  Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism?  A few dozen?  few hundred?  few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.

Because the heresies of Roman Catholicism were backed by secular power.  The heresy of Nestorianism was backed by ... nobody, which is why their numbers border on extinction while Roman Catholicism flourishes.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2515 on: January 10, 2015, 04:22:11 PM »
Why do things like filioque and St. Joseph's cult originate in Spain?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople. 

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed.  Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism?  A few dozen?  few hundred?  few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.

Because the heresies of Roman Catholicism were backed by secular power.  The heresy of Nestorianism was backed by ... nobody, which is why their numbers border on extinction while Roman Catholicism flourishes.

You mean besides the Persian political complex that ran most of Asia before Islam?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2516 on: January 10, 2015, 04:29:41 PM »
Why do things like filioque and St. Joseph's cult originate in Spain?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople. 

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed.  Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism?  A few dozen?  few hundred?  few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.

Because the heresies of Roman Catholicism were backed by secular power.  The heresy of Nestorianism was backed by ... nobody, which is why their numbers border on extinction while Roman Catholicism flourishes.

You mean besides the Persian political complex that ran most of Asia before Islam?

Regardless of how strong Persia was from the late 4th century AD (when Nestorianism appeared) to the advent of Islam, what Nestorians Islam didn't wipe out, Genghis Khan and the Mongols essentially reduced them to the very low numbers we have today.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2517 on: January 10, 2015, 04:31:15 PM »
Why do things like filioque and St. Joseph's cult originate in Spain?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople. 

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed.  Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism?  A few dozen?  few hundred?  few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.

Because the heresies of Roman Catholicism were backed by secular power.  The heresy of Nestorianism was backed by ... nobody, which is why their numbers border on extinction while Roman Catholicism flourishes.

You mean besides the Persian political complex that ran most of Asia before Islam?

Regardless of how strong Persia was from the late 4th century AD (when Nestorianism appeared) to the advent of Islam, what Nestorians Islam didn't wipe out, Genghis Khan and the Mongols essentially reduced them to the very low numbers we have today.

Exactly. Now, why are you making a comparison in numbers today?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2518 on: January 10, 2015, 04:35:31 PM »
The Orthodox didn't have to co-opt a saint to subjugate nations and satisfy the blood lusts of the conquistadors.  

Yeah, they did all that without co-opting saints. 

Picking on the Catholics for assimilating native cultural traditions is a slippery slope for us Orthodox. Yule logs anyone? Pisanky designs? Just sayin.....

I'm not arguing that making St. Olga equal to the Apostles is co-opting any Apostle and the Roman Catholics redefined St. Joseph according to an Aztec God.  The RCs have spent the next 5 centuries spreading that misrepresentation to the billions of her adherents.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2519 on: January 10, 2015, 04:38:27 PM »
Why do things like filioque and St. Joseph's cult originate in Spain?

Maybe for the same reason that things like Nestorianism originated in Constantinople. 

Both Spain and the Byzantine Empire were in ascending stages when those heresies were developed.  Over a billion people believe in the filioque while how many people believe in Nestorianism?  A few dozen?  few hundred?  few thousand?

Why are you making the comparison in numbers today? I don't follow. Nestorianism saw great success before Islam.

Because the heresies of Roman Catholicism were backed by secular power.  The heresy of Nestorianism was backed by ... nobody, which is why their numbers border on extinction while Roman Catholicism flourishes.

You mean besides the Persian political complex that ran most of Asia before Islam?

Regardless of how strong Persia was from the late 4th century AD (when Nestorianism appeared) to the advent of Islam, what Nestorians Islam didn't wipe out, Genghis Khan and the Mongols essentially reduced them to the very low numbers we have today.

Exactly. Now, why are you making a comparison in numbers today?

Just to show how secular power has allowed for the survival of heresies.