Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 470596 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2340 on: January 08, 2015, 08:12:51 PM »
Quote
I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

EO tradition states St Joseph was aged, and eighty. What does OO tradition say?

More or less the same. 

So why is a "young" St Joseph acceptable to you?

Because I don't associate "young" with "sexually active".
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2341 on: January 08, 2015, 08:16:46 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Because they would have killed her for it. There's also no historical evidence that St. Zacharias was High Priest at that time or any time.

If the Church proclaims these things as truth in her feasts, hymns and icons, that's good enough for me.

There are more truths than just propositions of historical fact. To say it did not literally happen is not to deny that it expresses wonderful spiritual truths.

Won't wash. You may as well explain the Resurrection, the Incarnation, or the Raising of Lazarus as "wonderful spiritual truths" because "it's impossible for such things to have REALLY happened", but this isn't Orthodoxy. The Church does not commemorate allegories as feasts.

Equivocation. The redemption of the flesh is the core of Christianity. The Theotokos being in the Temple is not. Saying that she had to literally be in the Temple is like claiming that belief in God as Creator requires six 24-hour days, 6000 years ago (and would require just as many ad hoc miracles of deception for God to pull off).

A resurrection is simple by comparison.

If the raising of Lazarus, dead and buried for four days and decomposing, is "simple", then the dwelling of the young daughter of Joachim and Anna in the Holy of Holies should be a no-brainer. No equivocation. The Church openly and joyously celebrates and proclaims this event as a milestone of our salvation history.
The raising of Lazarus would have involved simply restoring the dead cells to their original structure, something doctors could theoretically do given sufficiently advanced technology, then simply reinserting Lazarus' soul.

Sneaking Mary into the Holy of Holies would involve either making her invisible a la Aeneas at Carthage or creating an elaborate conspiracy to hide it from the High Priest. Both are possible, but hardly parsimonious (much like the mental gymnastics required to harmonize a literal Genesis creation and flood with modern science).

The more simple conclusion is that what the Church celebrates and what is crucial to faith is her status as the true Ark of the Covenant and Ladder from Earth to Heaven.

Who was the High Priest at the time? If it wasn't Caiaphas, there's an outside chance that maybe the priest was in on it, in which case it wouldn't be so implausible after all.

If an angel told the High Priest to sneak Mary into the Holy of Holies, and explained to him why, and also told him not to tell anyone else, he could certainly have done it if he decided to obey the angel.

But if the High Priest at the time was Caiaphas (who later became an unabashed foe of Christ), then it would present a problem since it'd require him to do an apparent 180 from proto-Christian believer to enemy.

UPDATE: According to Josephus, Caiaphas was anointed in AD 18. So it definitely wasn't him. Which makes my theory more likely.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 08:23:29 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2342 on: January 08, 2015, 08:19:16 PM »
St. Joseph was no Clint Eastwood. 

Correct.  Clint Eastwood is an actor.  St Joseph was heir to the Davidic throne.  

Quote
Are you supportive of St. Joseph having a younger, more "manly" appearance as depicted in the icon of the Holy Family?

I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

St. Joseph was either an old man or a young man.  He wasn't both.  Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2343 on: January 08, 2015, 08:21:40 PM »
St. Joseph was no Clint Eastwood. 

Correct.  Clint Eastwood is an actor.  St Joseph was heir to the Davidic throne.  

Quote
Are you supportive of St. Joseph having a younger, more "manly" appearance as depicted in the icon of the Holy Family?

I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

St. Joseph was either an old man or a young man.  He wasn't both.

Not at the same time, anyway.  But he was each at one point. 

Quote
Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

I'd love to learn more about Indian OO from you, so please keep going.   

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Offline Theophania

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2344 on: January 08, 2015, 08:23:02 PM »
Quote
I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

EO tradition states St Joseph was aged, and eighty. What does OO tradition say?

More or less the same. 

So why is a "young" St Joseph acceptable to you?

Because I don't associate "young" with "sexually active".

Speaking from experience?  :p
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2345 on: January 08, 2015, 08:28:43 PM »
Do you not think that Jesus, in his youth, referred to St. Joseph as "father"? What else would he, being an obedient child, have called him? "Hey you"?

I find these issues with St. Joseph to be completely bizarre.

Kelly, I'd be happy to send you what I have sent to others which explains how the Church regards St Joseph, liturgically, and iconographically. The point is that "icons" which show St Joseph holding the Child, or embracing the Mother of God, do not express what Orthodoxy teaches.

The Theotokos referred to St. Joseph as Christ's father. That's enough for me.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2346 on: January 08, 2015, 08:37:20 PM »
Quote
I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

EO tradition states St Joseph was aged, and eighty. What does OO tradition say?

More or less the same. 

So why is a "young" St Joseph acceptable to you?

Because I don't associate "young" with "sexually active".

Speaking from experience?  :p

Of a sort.  :P
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2347 on: January 08, 2015, 08:48:16 PM »
St. Joseph was no Clint Eastwood. 

Correct.  Clint Eastwood is an actor.  St Joseph was heir to the Davidic throne.  

Quote
Are you supportive of St. Joseph having a younger, more "manly" appearance as depicted in the icon of the Holy Family?

I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

St. Joseph was either an old man or a young man.  He wasn't both.

Not at the same time, anyway.  But he was each at one point.

What counts is which one was betrothed to the Virgin Mary.  She was about 16.  He was ... much older based on Tradition, not some 16th Century Roman Catholics.

Quote
Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

I'd love to learn more about Indian OO from you, so please keep going.   

If I want to learn more about Roman Catholicism, I live 2 miles from a RC Seminary - which sponsors interfaith classes.  Yet, I don't go.  I wonder why?   ???  ::)  ???

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2348 on: January 08, 2015, 08:51:00 PM »
St. Joseph was no Clint Eastwood. 

Correct.  Clint Eastwood is an actor.  St Joseph was heir to the Davidic throne.  

Quote
Are you supportive of St. Joseph having a younger, more "manly" appearance as depicted in the icon of the Holy Family?

I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

St. Joseph was either an old man or a young man.  He wasn't both.

Not at the same time, anyway.  But he was each at one point.

What counts is which one was betrothed to the Virgin Mary.

There was only ever one.

Quote
She was about 16.  He was ... much older based on Tradition, not some 16th Century Roman Catholics.

OK.  And? 

Quote
Quote
Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

I'd love to learn more about Indian OO from you, so please keep going.   

If I want to learn more about Roman Catholicism, I live 2 miles from a RC Seminary - which sponsors interfaith classes.  Yet, I don't go.  I wonder why?   ???  ::)  ???

Don't meet the prerequisites for admission? 
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2349 on: January 08, 2015, 08:53:58 PM »
... I'm not sure I buy that simply because Orthodoxy is already full of expressions that can easily mislead the uninitiated (eg, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"). ...

You must mean something like "... that can easily lead the uninitiated to take a new look at the inadequacies of his former confession," because there's nothing troublesome in "Most Holy Theotokos, save us."
Rather, lead them to conclude that the Orthodox diminish the saving role of Christ.

Oh, yes, because if Christ is not absolutely the only individual that can come to my aid, then I "diminish" him. These absolutist abstractions ("inadequacies of his former confession" above) just leave a real person in the real world (yes, Protestant have to live there too) with little besides carefully-concealed despair.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2350 on: January 08, 2015, 08:55:16 PM »
I saw an icon online a long time ago of Archangel Michael above Hell, the lower half being fire and burning people. Would that be schlock?

More likely Schlavic.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2351 on: January 08, 2015, 08:58:47 PM »
... I'm not sure I buy that simply because Orthodoxy is already full of expressions that can easily mislead the uninitiated (eg, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"). ...

You must mean something like "... that can easily lead the uninitiated to take a new look at the inadequacies of his former confession," because there's nothing troublesome in "Most Holy Theotokos, save us."
Rather, lead them to conclude that the Orthodox diminish the saving role of Christ.

Oh, yes, because if Christ is not absolutely the only individual that can come to my aid, then I "diminish" him. These absolutist abstractions ("inadequacies of his former confession" above) just leave a real person in the real world (yes, Protestant have to live there too) with little besides carefully-concealed despair.
You think praying to Christ alone constitutes despair?


Well, I guess I'm glad FountainPen isn't here to see statements like that..
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2352 on: January 08, 2015, 09:00:16 PM »
Don't meet the prerequisites for admission? 

I don't care about Roman Catholicism - plain and simple.  Whether or not that is a prerequisite for admission, I really don't care.   8)

You like Rome, Roman Catholicism and all the stuff that comes with it (even calling yourself the 14th Apostle - what blasphemy).  You can sit here and say that St. Joseph can be depicted both as an older man and a younger man - which is it?   :police:


Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2353 on: January 08, 2015, 09:04:57 PM »
... I'm not sure I buy that simply because Orthodoxy is already full of expressions that can easily mislead the uninitiated (eg, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"). ...

You must mean something like "... that can easily lead the uninitiated to take a new look at the inadequacies of his former confession," because there's nothing troublesome in "Most Holy Theotokos, save us."
Rather, lead them to conclude that the Orthodox diminish the saving role of Christ.

Oh, yes, because if Christ is not absolutely the only individual that can come to my aid, then I "diminish" him. These absolutist abstractions ("inadequacies of his former confession" above) just leave a real person in the real world (yes, Protestant have to live there too) with little besides carefully-concealed despair.
You think praying to Christ alone constitutes despair?


Well, I guess I'm glad FountainPen isn't here to see statements like that..

You think "praying" describes an abstract concept relevant only to God? I hope FountainPen or anybody else from an Evangelical background reads this and many similar conversations -- to learn that religious experience does not have to be a nearly-useless abstraction. We can ask our Father to help us (pray our Father to save us), because he truly is our father and a wise and loving one, and, yes -- this is (on our end) the same as when we ask a friend or parent or doctor to help us. Salvation can be integral to our earthly life. There is an ever-present help in trouble -- not just a "pie in the sky."
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2354 on: January 08, 2015, 09:05:05 PM »
Don't meet the prerequisites for admission? 

I don't care about Roman Catholicism - plain and simple.  Whether or not that is a prerequisite for admission, I really don't care.   8)

You like Rome, Roman Catholicism and all the stuff that comes with it (even calling yourself the 14th Apostle - what blasphemy).  You can sit here and say that St. Joseph can be depicted both as an older man and a younger man - which is it?   :police:



I guess reading comprehension is one of the prerequisites.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2355 on: January 08, 2015, 09:09:07 PM »
Don't meet the prerequisites for admission?

I don't care about Roman Catholicism - plain and simple.  Whether or not that is a prerequisite for admission, I really don't care.   8)

You like Rome, Roman Catholicism and all the stuff that comes with it (even calling yourself the 14th Apostle - what blasphemy).  You can sit here and say that St. Joseph can be depicted both as an older man and a younger man - which is it?   :police:

I guess reading comprehension is one of the prerequisites.

Most of the people who lived during Christ's time on earth were iliterate people on many dimensions: functionally, spiritually, etc.

Besides, uttering blasphemy doesn't require a degree from a seminary or any reading comprehension.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 09:22:48 PM by SolEX01 »

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2356 on: January 08, 2015, 09:14:09 PM »
... I'm not sure I buy that simply because Orthodoxy is already full of expressions that can easily mislead the uninitiated (eg, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"). ...

You must mean something like "... that can easily lead the uninitiated to take a new look at the inadequacies of his former confession," because there's nothing troublesome in "Most Holy Theotokos, save us."
Rather, lead them to conclude that the Orthodox diminish the saving role of Christ.

Oh, yes, because if Christ is not absolutely the only individual that can come to my aid, then I "diminish" him. These absolutist abstractions ("inadequacies of his former confession" above) just leave a real person in the real world (yes, Protestant have to live there too) with little besides carefully-concealed despair.
You think praying to Christ alone constitutes despair?


Well, I guess I'm glad FountainPen isn't here to see statements like that..

You think "praying" describes an abstract concept relevant only to God? I hope FountainPen or anybody else from an Evangelical background reads this and many similar conversations -- to learn that religious experience does not have to be a nearly-useless abstraction. We can ask our Father to help us (pray our Father to save us), because he truly is our father and a wise and loving one, and, yes -- this is (on our end) the same as when we ask a friend or parent or doctor to help us. Salvation can be integral to our earthly life. There is an ever-present help in trouble -- not just a "pie in the sky."
I'm more than sympathetic to prayer to Saints. You're preaching to the choir on that.

But what I'm not sympathetic to is the idea that a prayer life focused only on God Almighty is somehow deficient or too otherworldly.

That's just Orthodox Protestant bashing run amok.
Is that what they teach you at the temple volnutt-stein?

Actually, it's Volnutt-berg.

Rome doesn't care. Rome is actually very cool guy.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2357 on: January 08, 2015, 09:20:56 PM »
That's your definition of Protestantism, tho (which you're sneaking in rather after the fact). For myself, I think the average American Christian is not conscious of making the choice you're assigning to him -- after all, he doesn't even know what "save" and "pray" mean ... At any rate, despite the off-kilter nature of our brief exchange here, I really do have a concern for the misery of the average American Christian.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2358 on: January 08, 2015, 09:25:51 PM »
Don't meet the prerequisites for admission?

I don't care about Roman Catholicism - plain and simple.  Whether or not that is a prerequisite for admission, I really don't care.   8)

You like Rome, Roman Catholicism and all the stuff that comes with it (even calling yourself the 14th Apostle - what blasphemy).  You can sit here and say that St. Joseph can be depicted both as an older man and a younger man - which is it?   :police:

I guess reading comprehension is one of the prerequisites.

Most of the people who lived during Christ's time on earth were iliterate people on many dimensions: functionally, spiritually, etc.

Besides, uttering blasphemy doesn't require a degree from a seminary or any reading comprehension.

Tonight is "one of those nights", huh?
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2359 on: January 08, 2015, 09:32:25 PM »
Tonight is "one of those nights", huh?

No, tonight is no different from any other night.  You've said that St. Joseph can be depicted as an older and younger man - in contradiction to (at least the EO belief) how St. Joseph is traditionally depicted.  You're calling yourself the 14th Apostle, while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2360 on: January 08, 2015, 09:36:24 PM »
Tonight is "one of those nights", huh?
You're calling yourself the 14th Apostle, while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

Do you know what sarcasm is?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 09:36:32 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2361 on: January 08, 2015, 09:40:39 PM »
Tonight is "one of those nights", huh?
You're calling yourself the 14th Apostle, while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

Do you know what sarcasm is?

Yes, I do.  There's a difference between sarcasm and puffing one's chest.

Offline Theophania

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2362 on: January 08, 2015, 09:44:06 PM »
Tonight is "one of those nights", huh?
You're calling yourself the 14th Apostle, while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

Do you know what sarcasm is?

Yes, I do.  There's a difference between sarcasm and puffing one's chest.

Don't worry, I don't allow Mor to get too prideful.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2363 on: January 08, 2015, 09:45:52 PM »
God bless!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2364 on: January 08, 2015, 09:51:46 PM »
You've said that St. Joseph can be depicted as an older and younger man - in contradiction to (at least the EO belief) how St. Joseph is traditionally depicted. 

No.  I said I have no problem with either depiction.   

Quote
You're calling yourself the 14th Apostle...

If Santa didn't bring you a sense of humour for Christmas, I'm not sure what I can do about it.  Try leaving out an assortment of cookies rather than just chocolate chip.

Quote
...while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

I would never say such a stupid thing.  But you certainly implied it:

Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

I'd love to learn more about Indian OO from you, so please keep going.   
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 09:52:04 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2365 on: January 08, 2015, 09:56:50 PM »
Even if someone were in all seriousness refer to themselves at the 14th apostle, I'm not sure that would qualify as blasphemy unless we are equating apostles to deities. It would definitely be a massive amount of hubris, but not blasphemy.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2366 on: January 08, 2015, 10:17:46 PM »
That's your definition of Protestantism, tho (which you're sneaking in rather after the fact). For myself, I think the average American Christian is not conscious of making the choice you're assigning to him -- after all, he doesn't even know what "save" and "pray" mean ... At any rate, despite the off-kilter nature of our brief exchange here, I really do have a concern for the misery of the average American Christian.
Perhaps. I try not to make too many assumptions lest I succumb to elitism (not accusing you of it).
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2367 on: January 08, 2015, 10:23:32 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.

Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....
Mary's family was "normal" in the sense that St. Anna and St. Joachim were normally married, it's implied they had a normal sexual life, in short, and the Theotokos was normally conceived.

It's not just "implied", it had better be true, otherwise it would turn Mary into a some sort of demigoddess, different than the rest of us humans.

Regarding St. Joseph being 80 at the time, keep in mind that he taught Jesus in the family business (carpentry). This would have taken some time, like any apprenticeship, and it's a very healthy nonagenarian indeed who's able to still practice and teach carpentry. Especially in the first century when average lifespans were shorter. But I suppose anything's possible. I've known one guy at least who was still able to do that kind of work at that age.
I'm sure at least one of Jesus' half-brothers was also in the family business. A nonegenarian Joseph could have still provided oral instruction while the half-brother demonstrated.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2368 on: January 08, 2015, 10:31:18 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.


Again, I am very suspicious of current scholarship that says that some feasts and non-biblical stories come *out* of later books like the Protoevangelium of James.

I think it is far more reasonable to believe that there were oral traditions going on that writers of pseudo-gospels, letters and acts used in their texts to give them credence, specially by inventing a larger background story that the "floating" pieces of history didn't have.

That in some cases the subject was not registered before and appears more or less at the same time in apocryphal books and in the Church just shows first that the subject for some local and cultural reason had become more relevant than others. When the Church makes some events part of the feasts, it's actually putting the piece of information in proper context and isolating it from the "creative" additions of the apocryphal writers.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2369 on: January 08, 2015, 11:26:48 PM »
You've said that St. Joseph can be depicted as an older and younger man - in contradiction to (at least the EO belief) how St. Joseph is traditionally depicted. 

No.  I said I have no problem with either depiction.

Why?  Why is it OK to depict St. Joseph as a younger man?

 
Quote
You're calling yourself the 14th Apostle...

If Santa didn't bring you a sense of humour for Christmas, I'm not sure what I can do about it.  Try leaving out an assortment of cookies rather than just chocolate chip.

I like oatmeal raisin.   :)  I stopped believing in Santa long ago.


Quote
...while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

I would never say such a stupid thing.  But you certainly implied it:

Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

I'd love to learn more about Indian OO from you, so please keep going.   

The Indian OO have been influenced by RCs - so have the Greek Orthodox.  Yet, the idea of St. Joseph as a younger man hasn't gained traction among the Greek Orthodox.  Why do you think that's the case?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2370 on: January 08, 2015, 11:42:12 PM »
You've said that St. Joseph can be depicted as an older and younger man - in contradiction to (at least the EO belief) how St. Joseph is traditionally depicted. 

No.  I said I have no problem with either depiction.

Why? 

Because I don't care enough to have a problem with it.

Quote
Why is it OK to depict St. Joseph as a younger man?

Why is it OK to depict Jesus as a baby?

Quote
 
Quote
You're calling yourself the 14th Apostle...

If Santa didn't bring you a sense of humour for Christmas, I'm not sure what I can do about it.  Try leaving out an assortment of cookies rather than just chocolate chip.

I like oatmeal raisin.   :)  I stopped believing in Santa long ago.

I like oatmeal raisin too. 

Quote

Quote
...while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

I would never say such a stupid thing.  But you certainly implied it:

Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

I'd love to learn more about Indian OO from you, so please keep going.   

The Indian OO have been influenced by RCs - so have the Greek Orthodox.  Yet, the idea of St. Joseph as a younger man hasn't gained traction among the Greek Orthodox.  Why do you think that's the case?

I don't know.  Why do you think the idea of St Joseph as a younger man has gained traction among the Indian Orthodox? 
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2371 on: January 08, 2015, 11:55:51 PM »
You've said that St. Joseph can be depicted as an older and younger man - in contradiction to (at least the EO belief) how St. Joseph is traditionally depicted. 

No.  I said I have no problem with either depiction.

Why? 

Because I don't care enough to have a problem with it.

Where does this indifference come from?

Quote
Why is it OK to depict St. Joseph as a younger man?

Why is it OK to depict Jesus as a baby?

We were all babies at one time.  Why should Jesus be any different?

Quote
 
Quote
You're calling yourself the 14th Apostle...

If Santa didn't bring you a sense of humour for Christmas, I'm not sure what I can do about it.  Try leaving out an assortment of cookies rather than just chocolate chip.

I like oatmeal raisin.   :)  I stopped believing in Santa long ago.

I like oatmeal raisin too.

 :)


Quote

Quote
...while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

I would never say such a stupid thing.  But you certainly implied it:

Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

I'd love to learn more about Indian OO from you, so please keep going.   

The Indian OO have been influenced by RCs - so have the Greek Orthodox.  Yet, the idea of St. Joseph as a younger man hasn't gained traction among the Greek Orthodox.  Why do you think that's the case?

I don't know.  Why do you think the idea of St Joseph as a younger man has gained traction among the Indian Orthodox? 

Because of RC influence from when RCs first visited India in the 16th Century.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2372 on: January 09, 2015, 12:09:08 AM »
Is there any evidence of St. Joseph commonly being depicted as a young man by Indian OO?  I didn't know that was a trend.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2373 on: January 09, 2015, 12:20:05 AM »
You've said that St. Joseph can be depicted as an older and younger man - in contradiction to (at least the EO belief) how St. Joseph is traditionally depicted. 

No.  I said I have no problem with either depiction.

Why? 

Because I don't care enough to have a problem with it.

Where does this indifference come from?

I wasn't aware I needed to have a passionate opinion about everything. 

Quote
Quote
Why is it OK to depict St. Joseph as a younger man?

Why is it OK to depict Jesus as a baby?

We were all babies at one time.  Why should Jesus be any different?

OK.


Quote

Quote
...while telling me that I know the Indian OO better than you.

I would never say such a stupid thing.  But you certainly implied it:

Quote
Those 16th Century Roman Catholics definitely influenced the Indian OO view of St. Joseph towards the younger image.

I'd love to learn more about Indian OO from you, so please keep going.   

The Indian OO have been influenced by RCs - so have the Greek Orthodox.  Yet, the idea of St. Joseph as a younger man hasn't gained traction among the Greek Orthodox.  Why do you think that's the case?

I don't know.  Why do you think the idea of St Joseph as a younger man has gained traction among the Indian Orthodox? 

Because of RC influence from when RCs first visited India in the 16th Century.

So where are all the Indian Orthodox icons of a young St Joseph?   
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2374 on: January 09, 2015, 12:23:31 AM »
Is there any evidence of St. Joseph commonly being depicted as a young man by Indian OO?  I didn't know that was a trend.

Neither did I, but SolEX01 seems to be the internet's foremost expert on Indian Orthodoxy, so I'm excited to see what comes next.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2375 on: January 09, 2015, 12:32:38 AM »
I wasn't aware I needed to have a passionate opinion about everything.

Did Jesus say let your yes be yes and your no be no?  Regarding St. Joseph, you're waffling by expressing your indifference towards how St. Joseph is depicted.

 
So where are all the Indian Orthodox icons of a young St Joseph? 

I have no idea.  There's no icon of St. Thomas leaving on a cloud to attend the Virgin Mary's funeral?

Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2376 on: January 09, 2015, 12:34:15 AM »
Their argument is that anything that looks like him holding Christ the way the Theotokos holds Christ implies that St. Joesph is Christ's biological father.

Who is doing the arguing?

Quote
Given the fact that the usual depiction of Saint Joseph in relation to the Theotokos and Christ is cold as ice (he's like a Muslim woman, always walking ten feet behind them) I think a depiction like this would do more harm than good.

I agree with this.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2377 on: January 09, 2015, 12:47:53 AM »
One of these days I'm going to surf OC.net with my glass of rye in hand and see if it makes more sense.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2378 on: January 09, 2015, 12:50:47 AM »
I wasn't aware I needed to have a passionate opinion about everything.

Did Jesus say let your yes be yes and your no be no?  Regarding St. Joseph, you're waffling by expressing your indifference towards how St. Joseph is depicted.

Neither depiction bothers me.  Obviously you feel differently.  That's fine.

Quote
 
So where are all the Indian Orthodox icons of a young St Joseph? 

I have no idea.  There's no icon of St. Thomas leaving on a cloud to attend the Virgin Mary's funeral?

Are koalas indigenous to Greece?  
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2379 on: January 09, 2015, 12:56:22 AM »
Where are you getting 80 from? Even the Protoevangelium of James only says, "old man." St. Irenaeus seems to consider 50 to be old and I doubt he was alone.

This was my question as well. Hopefully it will be answered below. This will have to wait until tomorrow.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2380 on: January 09, 2015, 01:12:42 AM »
I wasn't aware I needed to have a passionate opinion about everything.

Did Jesus say let your yes be yes and your no be no?  Regarding St. Joseph, you're waffling by expressing your indifference towards how St. Joseph is depicted.

Neither depiction bothers me.  Obviously you feel differently.  That's fine.

It's fine to agree to disagree - which is what we're doing here.  While you can acknowledge how the EO view St. Joseph, you have an alternative theory that is based on 16th century RC doctrine - which is not OK since I'd rather not venerate 16th century RC doctrine junk.

Quote
 
So where are all the Indian Orthodox icons of a young St Joseph? 

I have no idea.  There's no icon of St. Thomas leaving on a cloud to attend the Virgin Mary's funeral?

Are koalas indigenous to Greece?

No.  Plus, koalas aren't indigenous to India.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2381 on: January 09, 2015, 01:15:29 AM »
Is there any evidence of St. Joseph commonly being depicted as a young man by Indian OO?  I didn't know that was a trend.

Neither did I, but SolEX01 seems to be the internet's foremost expert on Indian Orthodoxy, so I'm excited to see what comes next.

Were you the only OO at St. Vlad's during your time there?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2382 on: January 09, 2015, 01:37:36 AM »
It's fine to agree to disagree - which is what we're doing here.  While you can acknowledge how the EO view St. Joseph, you have an alternative theory that is based on 16th century RC doctrine - which is not OK since I'd rather not venerate 16th century RC doctrine junk.

What is my alternative theory?
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2383 on: January 09, 2015, 01:54:16 AM »
It's fine to agree to disagree - which is what we're doing here.  While you can acknowledge how the EO view St. Joseph, you have an alternative theory that is based on 16th century RC doctrine - which is not OK since I'd rather not venerate 16th century RC doctrine junk.

What is my alternative theory?

Your indifference towards how St. Joseph is depicted.  When I'm asked to justify something, I have to justify it.  In your case, you're not justifying anything at all.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2384 on: January 09, 2015, 02:02:03 AM »
It's fine to agree to disagree - which is what we're doing here.  While you can acknowledge how the EO view St. Joseph, you have an alternative theory that is based on 16th century RC doctrine - which is not OK since I'd rather not venerate 16th century RC doctrine junk.

What is my alternative theory?

Your indifference towards how St. Joseph is depicted. 

Since when is "indifference" regarding the depiction of St Joseph a "theory that is based on 16th century RC doctrine"? 

Quote
When I'm asked to justify something, I have to justify it.  In your case, you're not justifying anything at all.

What do I have to justify?  I have no problem with St Joseph being depicted as an old man.  I have no problem with St Joseph being depicted as a young man.  This "indifference" is largely a matter of personal taste and opinion. 

The only thing I can recall saying that might require justification is that "young" does not necessarily imply "sexually active", and therefore a "young St Joseph" can still be a "chaste" and "celibate" St Joseph.  But the fact that "young" does not necessarily imply "sexually active"...how exactly do you want me to justify that?  Shall I take a census of the men of OCNet? 
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