Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 492148 times)

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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2295 on: January 08, 2015, 01:21:22 AM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.

Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2296 on: January 08, 2015, 01:26:44 AM »
Quote
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48

Father in the temporal, "social" sense only. Icons are beyond what is worldly.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take our Lady at her word.  I see no reason to believe that she was speaking solely of social conventions when reading the rest of that chapter.  
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2297 on: January 08, 2015, 01:29:39 AM »
Quote
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48

Father in the temporal, "social" sense only. Icons are beyond what is worldly.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take our Lady at her word.  I see no reason to believe that she was speaking solely of social conventions when reading the rest of that chapter.  

So you believe that St Joseph was the biological father of her Son? Because that is the only other reading of this passage.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 01:30:39 AM by LBK »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2298 on: January 08, 2015, 01:36:05 AM »
Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....

"...her husband Joseph, being a just man..."

"'Joseph, son of David...you shall call his name Jesus...'"

"...he was of the house and lineage of David..."

Yeah, just an old man who was merely Mary's "protector".  Perhaps a more pathetic version of this guy:   

Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2299 on: January 08, 2015, 01:36:24 AM »
Quote
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48

Father in the temporal, "social" sense only. Icons are beyond what is worldly.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take our Lady at her word.  I see no reason to believe that she was speaking solely of social conventions when reading the rest of that chapter.  

So you believe that St Joseph was the biological father of her Son? Because that is the only other reading of this passage.

No, I don't, and no, it's not. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2300 on: January 08, 2015, 01:46:24 AM »
Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....

"...her husband Joseph, being a just man..."

"'Joseph, son of David...you shall call his name Jesus...'"

"...he was of the house and lineage of David..."

Yeah, just an old man who was merely Mary's "protector".  Perhaps a more pathetic version of this guy:   


St. Joseph was no Clint Eastwood.  Are you supportive of St. Joseph having a younger, more "manly" appearance as depicted in the icon of the Holy Family?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2301 on: January 08, 2015, 01:47:16 AM »
Quote
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48

Father in the temporal, "social" sense only. Icons are beyond what is worldly.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take our Lady at her word.  I see no reason to believe that she was speaking solely of social conventions when reading the rest of that chapter.  

So you believe that St Joseph was the biological father of her Son? Because that is the only other reading of this passage.

No, I don't, and no, it's not

Then enlighten us with other possibilities.

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2302 on: January 08, 2015, 01:48:22 AM »
Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....

"...her husband Joseph, being a just man..."

"'Joseph, son of David...you shall call his name Jesus...'"

"...he was of the house and lineage of David..."

Yeah, just an old man who was merely Mary's "protector".  Perhaps a more pathetic version of this guy:   



I cannot speak for the OO, but the EO church consistently refers to St Joseph as The Betrothed, not The Husband, of the Virgin, in prayers and hymns. Moreover, the Virgin is also never referred to liturgically as a wife (other than as Bride of God), only as a Mother. St Joseph, in hymns and icons, is not ignored, but he is a character in the background, be it at the Nativity, the Meeting, or Mid-Pentecost.

Indeed, the appointed gospel reading for Mid-Pentecost is John 7:14-30, which speaks of Christ's wisdom and knowledge, not the account of Him going missing in Jerusalem.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2303 on: January 08, 2015, 01:49:53 AM »
I'm appreciating the quotes about St. Joseph in this thread -- some of which I'd forgotten -- since his selfless companionship and fatherhood in older age have become comforting and inspirational to me in the last few years.
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Offline Georgii

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2304 on: January 08, 2015, 03:17:22 AM »
Sexless marriages would be something very odd in Orthodoxy (if we discount St. John of Kronstadt and his frenemy Mr. Tolstoy ;) ).

Gee, I would have thought even Father John called him Count Tolstoy, but now I see he used no honorifics or (respectful) titles for Tolstoy at all, at least in some of his more famous flames.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2305 on: January 08, 2015, 04:01:10 AM »
If you "know they do," then how can you simultaneously expect an icon to be a "nice picture of ... a family"? Don't you think there might be some unfortunate theological meaning in the Christ depicted "in" both SS. Mary and Joseph?

I do not understand what you are driving at. I see no unfortunate theological meaning. "Nice picture of" reads like a photo op, which is not the case.


The depiction above of St Joseph, while perhaps acceptable in other Christian denominations, is not at all in keeping with Orthodox teaching or iconographic tradition.

What Orthodox teaching is this not in keeping of?  Icons are not the final word of Orthodox teaching. I am curious as to what you are referring to.



Their argument is that anything that looks like him holding Christ the way the Theotokos holds Christ implies that St. Joesph is Christ's biological father.

I'm not sure I buy that simply because Orthodoxy is already full of expressions that can easily mislead the uninitiated (eg, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"). It shouldn't be a stretch to have an icon like this and then explain why it is not a knock against the unique role of the Theotokos.

Given the fact that the usual depiction of Saint Joseph in relation to the Theotokos and Christ is cold as ice (he's like a Muslim woman, always walking ten feet behind them) I think a depiction like this would do more harm than good.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2306 on: January 08, 2015, 04:04:04 AM »
Quote
Icons are not the final word of Orthodox teaching.

Just as the hymns and prayers of the Church express what the entire Church teaches in words, so do icons, in visual form. Icons do, and must, express what the Church teaches. They are not vehicles for the whims and fancies of artists.

Quote
What Orthodox teaching is this not in keeping of?

Posting a twelve-page document on the forum won't make me very popular among the admins.  ;) I would be happy to email it to you, though.


Then start a blog and quit lording your secret gnosis over all us plebs.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2307 on: January 08, 2015, 08:05:51 AM »
Quote
Icons are not the final word of Orthodox teaching.

Just as the hymns and prayers of the Church express what the entire Church teaches in words, so do icons, in visual form. Icons do, and must, express what the Church teaches. They are not vehicles for the whims and fancies of artists.

Quote
What Orthodox teaching is this not in keeping of?

Posting a twelve-page document on the forum won't make me very popular among the admins.  ;) I would be happy to email it to you, though.


Then start a blog and quit lording your secret gnosis over all us plebs.

There's nothing secret about it, and your snarkiness is rude and unnecessary. Interested people here have contacted me about the document, and I have passed it on to them.

I also have no intention of starting a blog, and never have.
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Offline MalpanaGiwargis

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2308 on: January 08, 2015, 09:25:00 AM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.

The "young St. Joseph" is a Counter-Reformation phenomenon, tied up in Spanish colonialism. He was reconceptualized as a young, vigorous protector when he was selected as the patron of the conquest and conversion of Mexico in 1555, and was named patron of the Kingdom of Spain in 1679 by King Charles II, displacing the traditional St. James ("Santiago"). This aspect of his imagery is detailed in Creating the Cult of St. Joseph: Art and Gender in the Spanish Empire by Charlene Villaseñor Black. The introduction is available online.

My own experience of Catholic holy cards and devotional images, mostly late 19th and early 20th century, is a somewhat feminized St. Joseph. Well, to be honest, everyone looks feminized in the devotional art of that period, which is - to put it mildly - not my favorite.  :)
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Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2309 on: January 08, 2015, 03:06:16 PM »
Not to be picky, but a man can also be a stepfather or an adoptive father. This would use the same word without a biological element.
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2310 on: January 08, 2015, 03:06:16 PM »
I'm not sure I would agree with the characterization that it presents a major distortion.

If you take up my offer (available to all forum members, not just you) of my emailing you a document on the proper iconography of St Joseph the Betrothed, you will see why the above image is indeed a major distortion.  :)

I would like to receive that material. And anything you might have about icons actually. :)
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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2311 on: January 08, 2015, 03:06:16 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.

Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....

Actually, from what I hear in Roman circles, it's part of a "Pro-Family" effort. They want to show that Jesus had a "normal" family even with an adopted father. That's why they have the "Holy Family" concept.

My usual reply is that the traditional reference for a holy family is the family of the Theotokos. At least from what I've seen in icons. The insistence of making Mary, Joseph and Christ a normal family and putting the family of the Theotokos aside messes up with everything.

Mary's family was "normal" in the sense that St. Anna and St. Joachim were normally married, it's implied they had a normal sexual life, in short, and the Theotokos was normally conceived.

It can only lead to confusion to make a "normal" family out of a miraculous virginal mother and her elderly protector who married her just to protect from moralist social expectations a pious young woman who wanted to remain fully dedicated to God in an age when there weren't nuns.

Not only we are robbed of the concept that a normal family, like St. Anna, St. Joachim and the Theotokos, can be holy, but we are also robbed of the reference of an emerging monastic life in the Theotokos and of Christian priestly service in St. Joseph, because if the Theotokos is the Ark of the New Alliance, St. Joseph being in her service as a form of service to God, can be seen as a figure of a priest serving in the altar for Christ and His Mother.
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Offline Keble

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2312 on: January 08, 2015, 03:14:14 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2313 on: January 08, 2015, 03:45:43 PM »
... I'm not sure I buy that simply because Orthodoxy is already full of expressions that can easily mislead the uninitiated (eg, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"). ...

You must mean something like "... that can easily lead the uninitiated to take a new look at the inadequacies of his former confession," because there's nothing troublesome in "Most Holy Theotokos, save us."
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2314 on: January 08, 2015, 03:59:36 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.

Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....
Mary's family was "normal" in the sense that St. Anna and St. Joachim were normally married, it's implied they had a normal sexual life, in short, and the Theotokos was normally conceived.

It's not just "implied", it had better be true, otherwise it would turn Mary into a some sort of demigoddess, different than the rest of us humans.

Regarding St. Joseph being 80 at the time, keep in mind that he taught Jesus in the family business (carpentry). This would have taken some time, like any apprenticeship, and it's a very healthy nonagenarian indeed who's able to still practice and teach carpentry. Especially in the first century when average lifespans were shorter. But I suppose anything's possible. I've known one guy at least who was still able to do that kind of work at that age.

Also, maybe his longevity and health was miraculous in origin.

On the other hand, having him in his twenties would not work well either, since it wouldn't have given him time to have one or more previous marriage(s) and children (and many people think he did, since that would explain where the Desposnyi, and Jesus' unnamed sisters, came from.)
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 04:10:35 PM by Minnesotan »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2315 on: January 08, 2015, 04:48:16 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.

Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....
Mary's family was "normal" in the sense that St. Anna and St. Joachim were normally married, it's implied they had a normal sexual life, in short, and the Theotokos was normally conceived.

It's not just "implied", it had better be true, otherwise it would turn Mary into a some sort of demigoddess, different than the rest of us humans.

Regarding St. Joseph being 80 at the time, keep in mind that he taught Jesus in the family business (carpentry). This would have taken some time, like any apprenticeship, and it's a very healthy nonagenarian indeed who's able to still practice and teach carpentry. Especially in the first century when average lifespans were shorter. But I suppose anything's possible. I've known one guy at least who was still able to do that kind of work at that age.

Also, maybe his longevity and health was miraculous in origin.

On the other hand, having him in his twenties would not work well either, since it wouldn't have given him time to have one or more previous marriage(s) and children (and many people think he did, since that would explain where the Desposnyi, and Jesus' unnamed sisters, came from.)
Bah, Jesus came from a long line of virgins. It was virgins all the way down.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 04:49:31 PM by TheTrisagion »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2316 on: January 08, 2015, 06:15:22 PM »
... I'm not sure I buy that simply because Orthodoxy is already full of expressions that can easily mislead the uninitiated (eg, "Most Holy Theotokos, save us"). ...

You must mean something like "... that can easily lead the uninitiated to take a new look at the inadequacies of his former confession," because there's nothing troublesome in "Most Holy Theotokos, save us."
Rather, lead them to conclude that the Orthodox diminish the saving role of Christ.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2317 on: January 08, 2015, 06:24:33 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.

Transform St. Joseph from an old man who was merely Mary's "protector" into someone who fit in with 1960's morals and values....
Mary's family was "normal" in the sense that St. Anna and St. Joachim were normally married, it's implied they had a normal sexual life, in short, and the Theotokos was normally conceived.

It's not just "implied", it had better be true, otherwise it would turn Mary into a some sort of demigoddess, different than the rest of us humans.

Regarding St. Joseph being 80 at the time, keep in mind that he taught Jesus in the family business (carpentry). This would have taken some time, like any apprenticeship, and it's a very healthy nonagenarian indeed who's able to still practice and teach carpentry. Especially in the first century when average lifespans were shorter. But I suppose anything's possible. I've known one guy at least who was still able to do that kind of work at that age.

Also, maybe his longevity and health was miraculous in origin.

On the other hand, having him in his twenties would not work well either, since it wouldn't have given him time to have one or more previous marriage(s) and children (and many people think he did, since that would explain where the Desposnyi, and Jesus' unnamed sisters, came from.)
Where are you getting 80 from? Even the Protoevangelium of James only says, "old man." St. Irenaeus seems to consider 50 to be old and I doubt he was alone.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2318 on: January 08, 2015, 06:30:25 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies). It could be recording an inspired oral tradition.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 06:31:11 PM by Volnutt »
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2319 on: January 08, 2015, 06:35:33 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2320 on: January 08, 2015, 06:57:48 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Because they would have killed her for it. There's also no historical evidence that St. Zacharias was High Priest at that time or any time.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2321 on: January 08, 2015, 07:02:08 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Because they would have killed her for it. There's also no historical evidence that St. Zacharias was High Priest at that time or any time.

If the Church proclaims these things as truth in her feasts, hymns and icons, that's good enough for me.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2322 on: January 08, 2015, 07:05:09 PM »
I saw an icon online a long time ago of Archangel Michael above Hell, the lower half being fire and burning people. Would that be schlock?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2323 on: January 08, 2015, 07:07:42 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Because they would have killed her for it. There's also no historical evidence that St. Zacharias was High Priest at that time or any time.

If the Church proclaims these things as truth in her feasts, hymns and icons, that's good enough for me.
There are more truths than just propositions of historical fact. To say it did not literally happen is not to deny that it expresses wonderful spiritual truths.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2324 on: January 08, 2015, 07:09:55 PM »
I cannot speak for the OO, but the EO church consistently refers to St Joseph as The Betrothed, not The Husband, of the Virgin, in prayers and hymns. Moreover, the Virgin is also never referred to liturgically as a wife (other than as Bride of God), only as a Mother. St Joseph, in hymns and icons, is not ignored, but he is a character in the background, be it at the Nativity, the Meeting, or Mid-Pentecost.

Where St Joseph is mentioned at all liturgically, I've heard "the Betrothed" but also "the Carpenter" and "the Righteous".  All of these, of course, are Scriptural appellations.  So are "husband" and "father" and "parent".  Preference for one in liturgical use does not negate the others.    

Quote
Indeed, the appointed gospel reading for Mid-Pentecost is John 7:14-30, which speaks of Christ's wisdom and knowledge, not the account of Him going missing in Jerusalem.

I'm not sure what the importance of mentioning Mid-Pentecost was if it has nothing to do with Luke 2 except in terms of its icon.  
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2325 on: January 08, 2015, 07:13:51 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Because they would have killed her for it. There's also no historical evidence that St. Zacharias was High Priest at that time or any time.

If the Church proclaims these things as truth in her feasts, hymns and icons, that's good enough for me.

There are more truths than just propositions of historical fact. To say it did not literally happen is not to deny that it expresses wonderful spiritual truths.

Won't wash. You may as well explain the Resurrection, the Incarnation, or the Raising of Lazarus as "wonderful spiritual truths" because "it's impossible for such things to have REALLY happened", but this isn't Orthodoxy. The Church does not commemorate allegories as feasts.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2326 on: January 08, 2015, 07:14:25 PM »
St. Joseph was no Clint Eastwood. 

Correct.  Clint Eastwood is an actor.  St Joseph was heir to the Davidic throne.  

Quote
Are you supportive of St. Joseph having a younger, more "manly" appearance as depicted in the icon of the Holy Family?

I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2327 on: January 08, 2015, 07:16:19 PM »
Quote
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48

Father in the temporal, "social" sense only. Icons are beyond what is worldly.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take our Lady at her word.  I see no reason to believe that she was speaking solely of social conventions when reading the rest of that chapter.  

So you believe that St Joseph was the biological father of her Son? Because that is the only other reading of this passage.

No, I don't, and no, it's not

Then enlighten us with other possibilities.

There's more to "fatherhood" than "semen". 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2328 on: January 08, 2015, 07:16:50 PM »
Quote
I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

EO tradition states St Joseph was aged, and eighty. What does OO tradition say?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2329 on: January 08, 2015, 07:16:53 PM »
Not to be picky, but a man can also be a stepfather or an adoptive father. This would use the same word without a biological element.

Not picky at all.  
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2330 on: January 08, 2015, 07:17:38 PM »
Quote
I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

EO tradition states St Joseph was aged, and eighty. What does OO tradition say?

More or less the same. 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2331 on: January 08, 2015, 07:31:07 PM »
Quote
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48

Father in the temporal, "social" sense only. Icons are beyond what is worldly.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take our Lady at her word.  I see no reason to believe that she was speaking solely of social conventions when reading the rest of that chapter.  

So you believe that St Joseph was the biological father of her Son? Because that is the only other reading of this passage.

No, I don't, and no, it's not

Then enlighten us with other possibilities.

There's more to "fatherhood" than "semen". 

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

I don't think He's talking about St Joseph.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2332 on: January 08, 2015, 07:31:45 PM »
Quote
I have no problem either with the "older" look or the "younger" look.  

EO tradition states St Joseph was aged, and eighty. What does OO tradition say?

More or less the same. 

So why is a "young" St Joseph acceptable to you?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2333 on: January 08, 2015, 07:33:00 PM »
Quote
And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48

Father in the temporal, "social" sense only. Icons are beyond what is worldly.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to take our Lady at her word.  I see no reason to believe that she was speaking solely of social conventions when reading the rest of that chapter.  

So you believe that St Joseph was the biological father of her Son? Because that is the only other reading of this passage.

No, I don't, and no, it's not

Then enlighten us with other possibilities.

There's more to "fatherhood" than "semen". 

“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

I don't think He's talking about St Joseph.
Jesus has two daddies
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2334 on: January 08, 2015, 07:34:18 PM »
Do you not think that Jesus, in his youth, referred to St. Joseph as "father"? What else would he, being an obedient child, have called him? "Hey you"?

I find these issues with St. Joseph to be completely bizarre.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2335 on: January 08, 2015, 07:36:48 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Because they would have killed her for it. There's also no historical evidence that St. Zacharias was High Priest at that time or any time.

If the Church proclaims these things as truth in her feasts, hymns and icons, that's good enough for me.

There are more truths than just propositions of historical fact. To say it did not literally happen is not to deny that it expresses wonderful spiritual truths.

Won't wash. You may as well explain the Resurrection, the Incarnation, or the Raising of Lazarus as "wonderful spiritual truths" because "it's impossible for such things to have REALLY happened", but this isn't Orthodoxy. The Church does not commemorate allegories as feasts.
Equivocation. The redemption of the flesh is the core of Christianity. The Theotokos being in the Temple is not. Saying that she had to literally be in the Temple is like claiming that belief in God as Creator requires six 24-hour days, 6000 years ago (and would require just as many ad hoc miracles of deception for God to pull off).

A resurrection is simple by comparison.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2336 on: January 08, 2015, 07:41:34 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Because they would have killed her for it. There's also no historical evidence that St. Zacharias was High Priest at that time or any time.

If the Church proclaims these things as truth in her feasts, hymns and icons, that's good enough for me.

There are more truths than just propositions of historical fact. To say it did not literally happen is not to deny that it expresses wonderful spiritual truths.

Won't wash. You may as well explain the Resurrection, the Incarnation, or the Raising of Lazarus as "wonderful spiritual truths" because "it's impossible for such things to have REALLY happened", but this isn't Orthodoxy. The Church does not commemorate allegories as feasts.

Equivocation. The redemption of the flesh is the core of Christianity. The Theotokos being in the Temple is not. Saying that she had to literally be in the Temple is like claiming that belief in God as Creator requires six 24-hour days, 6000 years ago (and would require just as many ad hoc miracles of deception for God to pull off).

A resurrection is simple by comparison.

If the raising of Lazarus, dead and buried for four days and decomposing, is "simple", then the dwelling of the young daughter of Joachim and Anna in the Holy of Holies should be a no-brainer. No equivocation. The Church openly and joyously celebrates and proclaims this event as a milestone of our salvation history.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2337 on: January 08, 2015, 07:45:42 PM »
Do you not think that Jesus, in his youth, referred to St. Joseph as "father"? What else would he, being an obedient child, have called him? "Hey you"?

I find these issues with St. Joseph to be completely bizarre.

Kelly, I'd be happy to send you what I have sent to others which explains how the Church regards St Joseph, liturgically, and iconographically. The point is that "icons" which show St Joseph holding the Child, or embracing the Mother of God, do not express what Orthodoxy teaches.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2338 on: January 08, 2015, 07:48:29 PM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

More precisely, it's the Protoevangelium of James which tells us that. Given the other problematic stuff in that text, I'm not willing to take it as anything resembling literal truth, but hey, I'm a D.P. anyway.

I don't know that one need conclude that the PoJ invented all it's claims just because it wasn't written by St. James (though I am one who's skeptical about the Theotokos literally living in the Holy of Holies).

The PoJ documents many traditions which have found their way into the hymnography and iconography of the Church. The feast of the Entry of the Mother of God into the Temple repeatedly and explicitly states that she entered the Holy of Holies and dwelt there. If God was able to become incarnate, to die and to rise again, why is the Virgin's dwelling in the Holy of Holies so difficult to accept?
Because they would have killed her for it. There's also no historical evidence that St. Zacharias was High Priest at that time or any time.

If the Church proclaims these things as truth in her feasts, hymns and icons, that's good enough for me.

There are more truths than just propositions of historical fact. To say it did not literally happen is not to deny that it expresses wonderful spiritual truths.

Won't wash. You may as well explain the Resurrection, the Incarnation, or the Raising of Lazarus as "wonderful spiritual truths" because "it's impossible for such things to have REALLY happened", but this isn't Orthodoxy. The Church does not commemorate allegories as feasts.

Equivocation. The redemption of the flesh is the core of Christianity. The Theotokos being in the Temple is not. Saying that she had to literally be in the Temple is like claiming that belief in God as Creator requires six 24-hour days, 6000 years ago (and would require just as many ad hoc miracles of deception for God to pull off).

A resurrection is simple by comparison.

If the raising of Lazarus, dead and buried for four days and decomposing, is "simple", then the dwelling of the young daughter of Joachim and Anna in the Holy of Holies should be a no-brainer. No equivocation. The Church openly and joyously celebrates and proclaims this event as a milestone of our salvation history.
The raising of Lazarus would have involved simply restoring the dead cells to their original structure, something doctors could theoretically do given sufficiently advanced technology, then simply reinserting Lazarus' soul.

Sneaking Mary into the Holy of Holies would involve either making her invisible a la Aeneas at Carthage or creating an elaborate conspiracy to hide it from the High Priest. Both are possible, but hardly parsimonious (much like the mental gymnastics required to harmonize a literal Genesis creation and flood with modern science).

The more simple conclusion is that what the Church celebrates and what is crucial to faith is her status as the true Ark of the Covenant and Ladder from Earth to Heaven.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 08:13:13 PM by Volnutt »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2339 on: January 08, 2015, 08:05:27 PM »
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

I don't think He's talking about St Joseph.

I agree with you.  Now what? 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).