Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 492271 times)

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2250 on: December 26, 2014, 06:58:51 PM »
LOL, "#Ferguson"!
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2251 on: December 26, 2014, 07:00:45 PM »
A Christmas Eve Tweet from Ayatollah Khamenei.



Notice how they blurred out Jesus' face.

Don't let JamesR see this.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2252 on: December 26, 2014, 11:07:50 PM »
A Christmas Eve Tweet from Ayatollah Khamenei.



Notice how they blurred out Jesus' face.

Don't let JamesR see this.

Why???

He's been talking about becoming and English Major and you are worried about this? I think you might only care about yourself.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2253 on: December 27, 2014, 12:20:14 AM »
He was wishing in another thread for a Jesus with more-Islamic qualities.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2254 on: December 27, 2014, 01:35:39 PM »


St. Feodor Ushakov is a glorified saint in the Russian Orthodox Church. He was an admiral and is depicted as such.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2255 on: December 27, 2014, 01:54:59 PM »

Item 2, Saint Isaac the Syrian is a non-Eastern Orthodox saint. The same excuses applied to him can be applied elsewhere.



St. Isaac the Syrian is definitely an Eastern Orthodox saint. He was anathematized by the Nestorians who took over the Church of the East after 780 when Catholicos Timothy I came to power, for preaching Orthodoxy, specifically, deification.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2256 on: December 27, 2014, 02:30:46 PM »
He was wishing in another thread for a Jesus with more-Islamic qualities.

He's hard to keep up with apparently.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2257 on: December 29, 2014, 11:01:05 AM »
A Christmas Eve Tweet from Ayatollah Khamenei.



Notice how they blurred out Jesus' face.

I'm somewhat surprised he would cover the face, considering that Shia are not against iconography.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2258 on: January 02, 2015, 02:06:08 AM »
A Christmas Eve Tweet from Ayatollah Khamenei.



Notice how they blurred out Jesus' face.

I'm somewhat surprised he would cover the face, considering that Shia are not against iconography.

I'm surprised he's using Christ instead of just Isa or Jesus, and that Americana style painting -- definitely trying to win over people.

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2259 on: January 06, 2015, 12:24:10 AM »
The other day, I received two "schlocky" icons from my ex mother-in-law.  My ex-wife, over the New Year's holiday, apparently bought them from a flea market at an outlet mall - even though there's an Orthodox monastery about 30 minutes from where they were staying (neither didn't know about the monastery's existence at that time).

The first one is of the Holy Family, except St. Joseph looks like an adult Christ rather than an older man.  I tell my mom that the icon is schlock; however, she insists on keeping it.

The second is a key chain depicting the Virgin with Christ child - except there's something (an angel?) holding a cross in the upper right corner of the icon and another angel (?) holding something in the upper left corner of the icon.

I can't post pictures of either icon on this forum; hopefully, my description is sufficient....

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2260 on: January 06, 2015, 08:43:30 AM »
Quote
The second is a key chain depicting the Virgin with Christ child - except there's something (an angel?) holding a cross in the upper right corner of the icon and another angel (?) holding something in the upper left corner of the icon.

That description sounds like the perfectly proper Mother of God of the Passion (Strastnaya, Amolyntos). The Roman Catholics call it Our Lady of Perpetual Help, and there's hardly an RC church anywhere without one.



One angel holds a cross, the other a spear and a reed on which a sponge is fixed - all were instruments of Christ's Passion, hence the name. The Child is also looking away from His Mother, and at the cross, in anticipation of his future suffering. A pity a venerable and ancient icon has become part of a key chain ....  :P

OTOH, the Holy Family picture does sound like schlock. Any chance of taking a picture of it some time, and posting it here? Upload the picture onto an image hosting site, then post the URL.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 08:44:31 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2261 on: January 07, 2015, 02:38:58 AM »
The Holy Family icon closely resembles the image below:


Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2262 on: January 07, 2015, 02:52:13 AM »
The Holy Family icon closely resembles the image below:


Just as I suspected. Completely unsuitable for Orthodox veneration.  :(
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Theophania

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2263 on: January 07, 2015, 12:19:20 PM »
Because St. Joseph is in it?
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2264 on: January 07, 2015, 02:26:50 PM »
What if it were like a normal icon of the Theotokos and Christ-child, but with St. Joseph standing beside them (with traditional grey hair)?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2265 on: January 07, 2015, 02:27:49 PM »
Not an icon, but clearly inspired by them:

"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2266 on: January 07, 2015, 02:52:04 PM »
Not an icon, but clearly inspired by them:


Eeeeeeew, creepy realistic baby Jesus...
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2267 on: January 07, 2015, 02:57:33 PM »
Okay, is it that you find babies creepy, or realistic babies creepy, or realistic baby Jesuses creepy?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2268 on: January 07, 2015, 03:13:18 PM »
Not an icon, but clearly inspired by them:



Beamed up shoulder flesh is causing some "difficulties". 
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2269 on: January 07, 2015, 03:23:59 PM »
I'll admit that it looks like her ever-virginity is falling onto the chair.

When I said "inspired," I mostly meant the posing. :)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 03:24:24 PM by Porter ODoran »
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2270 on: January 07, 2015, 03:26:35 PM »
I like St. Joseph's eyeglasses. He looks quite distinguished.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2271 on: January 07, 2015, 03:56:55 PM »
Okay, is it that you find babies creepy, or realistic babies creepy, or realistic baby Jesuses creepy?
Realistic babies that stare at me like an adult are creepy. Tiny-30-year-old Jesus only works for me in the relative abstract of an old fashioned icon.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2272 on: January 07, 2015, 04:47:11 PM »
Just as I suspected. Completely unsuitable for Orthodox veneration.  :(

Thanks for your expertise.   :)

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2273 on: January 07, 2015, 06:02:23 PM »
Because St. Joseph is in it?

No, but how he is portrayed, in gesture and appearance.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2274 on: January 07, 2015, 09:23:21 PM »
Because St. Joseph is in it?

No, but how he is portrayed, in gesture and appearance.
You don't think he ever hugged the Theotokos or Christ? He raised Him as his own. I thought Orthodoxy was all about the legitimacy of sexless marriages. It has nothing to do with the Perpetual Virginity.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2275 on: January 07, 2015, 10:03:28 PM »
Because St. Joseph is in it?

No, but how he is portrayed, in gesture and appearance.
You don't think he ever hugged the Theotokos or Christ? He raised Him as his own. I thought Orthodoxy was all about the legitimacy of sexless marriages. It has nothing to do with the Perpetual Virginity.

You know, Volnutt, you've been around here so long and you often post with such a breadth of knowledge, and then you come out with something like this. Even a novice knows an icon impictures theological and liturgical truths, and positions and gestures are important parts of that.

Sexless marriages would be something very odd in Orthodoxy (if we discount St. John of Kronstadt and his frenemy Mr. Tolstoy ;) ).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2276 on: January 07, 2015, 10:33:08 PM »
Because St. Joseph is in it?

No, but how he is portrayed, in gesture and appearance.
You don't think he ever hugged the Theotokos or Christ? He raised Him as his own. I thought Orthodoxy was all about the legitimacy of sexless marriages. It has nothing to do with the Perpetual Virginity.

You know, Volnutt, you've been around here so long and you often post with such a breadth of knowledge, and then you come out with something like this. Even a novice knows an icon impictures theological and liturgical truths, and positions and gestures are important parts of that.

Sexless marriages would be something very odd in Orthodoxy (if we discount St. John of Kronstadt and his frenemy Mr. Tolstoy ;) ).
I know they do. I'm saying that such an icon can be a nice picture of the love St. Joesph, the Theotokos, and Christ had for one another as a family. I don't like the antiseptic nature of St. Joseph's portrayal in icons.

And I'm pretty sure there were more men and women who "lived together as brother and sister" than just the two you mention.
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2277 on: January 07, 2015, 10:35:58 PM »
Because St. Joseph is in it?

No, but how he is portrayed, in gesture and appearance.
You don't think he ever hugged the Theotokos or Christ? He raised Him as his own. I thought Orthodoxy was all about the legitimacy of sexless marriages. It has nothing to do with the Perpetual Virginity.

You know, Volnutt, you've been around here so long and you often post with such a breadth of knowledge, and then you come out with something like this. Even a novice knows an icon impictures theological and liturgical truths, and positions and gestures are important parts of that.

Sexless marriages would be something very odd in Orthodoxy (if we discount St. John of Kronstadt and his frenemy Mr. Tolstoy ;) ).
I know they do. I'm saying that such an icon can be a nice picture of the love St. Joesph, the Theotokos, and Christ had for one another as a family. I don't like the antiseptic nature of St. Joseph's portrayal in icons.

And I'm pretty sure there were more men and women who "lived together as brother and sister" than just the two you mention.

No doubt there were, but that's not the point you made.

If you "know they do," then how can you simultaneously expect an icon to be a "nice picture of ... a family"? Don't you think there might be some unfortunate theological meaning in the Christ depicted "in" both SS. Mary and Joseph?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2278 on: January 07, 2015, 10:49:49 PM »
Because St. Joseph is in it?

No, but how he is portrayed, in gesture and appearance.
You don't think he ever hugged the Theotokos or Christ? He raised Him as his own. I thought Orthodoxy was all about the legitimacy of sexless marriages. It has nothing to do with the Perpetual Virginity.

Icons depict theological spiritual realities, and also express in visual form what is expressed in what is read, said and sung in the hymns and prayers of the Church. The depiction above of St Joseph, while perhaps acceptable in other Christian denominations, is not at all in keeping with Orthodox teaching or iconographic tradition.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2279 on: January 08, 2015, 12:08:07 AM »
The Holy Family icon closely resembles the image below:


Just as I suspected. Completely unsuitable for Orthodox veneration.  :(
I would venerate it.
God bless!

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2280 on: January 08, 2015, 12:10:32 AM »
The Holy Family icon closely resembles the image below:


Just as I suspected. Completely unsuitable for Orthodox veneration.  :(
I would venerate it.

There are many reasons why you shouldn't, from the liturgical, doctrinal and theological standpoint. It presents St Joseph in a way which is not the way Orthodoxy regards him.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2281 on: January 08, 2015, 12:13:45 AM »
The NIV Bible is not translated from the Septugint and it's a poor translation, but I'm not going to chuck it on the floor. I still show it respect because it is the Holy Scripture. The icon might not be ideal, but I don't think an icon has to be perfect for me to venerate it.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2282 on: January 08, 2015, 12:20:50 AM »
The NIV Bible is not translated from the Septugint and it's a poor translation, but I'm not going to chuck it on the floor. I still show it respect because it is the Holy Scripture. The icon might not be ideal, but I don't think an icon has to be perfect for me to venerate it.

When a painting that looks like an icon presents a major distortion of what the Church teaches and believes, then it should not be venerated. Would you think it proper to hear a hymn or prayer during a church service which has been "creatively" tweaked to reflect a personal opinion which conflicts with what the Church teaches? Do you think it OK for a hymnographer to take such liberties?

Honest ignorance is one thing, and it can be corrected, as I have said many times on this forum. Willful perpetuation of error, however, is quite another matter. We are expected to be vigilant.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 12:21:09 AM by LBK »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2283 on: January 08, 2015, 12:24:21 AM »
I'm not sure I would agree with the characterization that it presents a major distortion.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2284 on: January 08, 2015, 12:29:19 AM »
I'm not sure I would agree with the characterization that it presents a major distortion.

If you take up my offer (available to all forum members, not just you) of my emailing you a document on the proper iconography of St Joseph the Betrothed, you will see why the above image is indeed a major distortion.  :)
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2285 on: January 08, 2015, 12:34:56 AM »
If you "know they do," then how can you simultaneously expect an icon to be a "nice picture of ... a family"? Don't you think there might be some unfortunate theological meaning in the Christ depicted "in" both SS. Mary and Joseph?

I do not understand what you are driving at. I see no unfortunate theological meaning. "Nice picture of" reads like a photo op, which is not the case.


The depiction above of St Joseph, while perhaps acceptable in other Christian denominations, is not at all in keeping with Orthodox teaching or iconographic tradition.

What Orthodox teaching is this not in keeping of?  Icons are not the final word of Orthodox teaching. I am curious as to what you are referring to.


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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2286 on: January 08, 2015, 12:41:25 AM »
Quote
Icons are not the final word of Orthodox teaching.

Just as the hymns and prayers of the Church express what the entire Church teaches in words, so do icons, in visual form. Icons do, and must, express what the Church teaches. They are not vehicles for the whims and fancies of artists.

Quote
What Orthodox teaching is this not in keeping of?

Posting a twelve-page document on the forum won't make me very popular among the admins.  ;) I would be happy to email it to you, though.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2287 on: January 08, 2015, 12:42:36 AM »
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And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2288 on: January 08, 2015, 12:46:04 AM »
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And when they saw him they were astonished; and his mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us so? Behold, your father and I have been looking for you anxiously.”

Luke 2.48

Father in the temporal, "social" sense only. Icons are beyond what is worldly.
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2289 on: January 08, 2015, 01:03:43 AM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2290 on: January 08, 2015, 01:08:18 AM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 01:10:29 AM by LBK »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2291 on: January 08, 2015, 01:09:57 AM »
I do not understand what you are driving at. I see no unfortunate theological meaning. ...

At a hazard, that is, as nobody educated but still someone observant, I would say the positioning of the Christ in relation to the Blessed Mother in the various very-important very-traditional icons of them has theological meanings. To then take that positioning and put in relation to St. Joseph might impute a variety of bad-theological meanings to him -- Does the Christ come forth from St. Joseph in any way? Was the special saintly role of St. Joseph to present the Godman to the world? and so forth.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2292 on: January 08, 2015, 01:14:41 AM »
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Was the special saintly role of St. Joseph to present the Godman to the world?

A pertinent question.  :)

It is noteworthy that in icons of the Meeting of the Lord, the order of the figures are thus, from right to left: Symeon holding the Child, then the Virgin, then Joseph holding the two turtle-doves. It is also the Virgin who is seen presenting the Child, not His earthly father, the reverse of what would have actually happened under Jewish custom. This detail is neither random or accidental. The hymns of this beautiful feast clearly proclaim this, and expand on its significance.

In some compositions, Righteous Anna the Prophetess stands next to Symeon, in others, she is behind Joseph, and in some she stands between the Virgin and Joseph.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 01:15:08 AM by LBK »
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Offline SolEX01

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2293 on: January 08, 2015, 01:15:29 AM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2294 on: January 08, 2015, 01:16:57 AM »
My issues are the depiction of St. Joseph as a younger man who resembles Christ and how he leans his head towards the Virgin Mary.  Doesn't Tradition tell us that St. Joseph was already an older man who died during Christ's time on earth?

The youth of St Joseph is just one error in the painting which flies in the face of Church tradition. Even western religious art, including paintings of the Nativity, the Meeting of the Lord, and the Flight into Egypt, consistently shows St Joseph with white hair and beard, consistent with the tradition that he was 80 years old when he was betrothed to the Virgin. The dark-haired depictions appeared only very recently, probably no earlier than 50 or so years ago.

Another innovation of Vatican II???

Possibly.
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