Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 492152 times)

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Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2205 on: December 18, 2014, 04:06:57 PM »
It's a McNichols so it's low-hanging fruit, but...Whu?



It looks like St. Michael is holding Joan of Arc down in the flames.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2206 on: December 18, 2014, 07:00:29 PM »
It's a McNichols so it's low-hanging fruit, but...Whu?



It looks like St. Michael is holding Joan of Arc down in the flames.

.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2207 on: December 18, 2014, 07:02:03 PM »


Is that, er, Eastern Catholic?

:) I can almost hear some of our more anti-ecumenical posters throwing their computers across the room.

It is Orthodox (you have inspired me to start using "er", but it doesn't fit in here).

It is a 1967 commemorative miniature from the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Vatican.

I would like a reproduction, but I haven't seen any. Er, two, I would donate one to New Skete.


That image is not an Orthodox icon. At best, it is simply a piece of wishful thinking. At worst, it promotes the "two lungs" idea, which is foreign to Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 07:02:56 PM by LBK »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2208 on: December 18, 2014, 07:10:48 PM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)
Let's burn you at the stake and see how much equanimity you have.  :P ::)

I didn't know that being a Saint meant being immune to fear and the pain of burning alive
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2209 on: December 18, 2014, 10:05:03 PM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)
Let's burn you at the stake and see how much equanimity you have.  :P ::)

I didn't know that being a Saint meant being immune to fear and the pain of burning alive

Icons portray heavenly realities and spiritual perfection. Proper icons of martyr-saints which show their martyrdom always show them as dispassionate. The hymnography of martyr-saints also speaks of their bravery, fortitude, and their anticipation of their heavenly reward for their refusal to renounce their faith. Many are known to have prayed for their tormentors, asking God to forgive them, as Christ did for those who crucified Him.

Here is a good example of a martyr accepting his fate, Protomartyr Stephen:



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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2210 on: December 18, 2014, 10:06:03 PM »
I looked at that icon before I read what you wrote and I was trying to figure out what was schlock about it.  :laugh:
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2211 on: December 18, 2014, 10:46:16 PM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)
Let's burn you at the stake and see how much equanimity you have.  :P ::)

I didn't know that being a Saint meant being immune to fear and the pain of burning alive

Icons portray heavenly realities and spiritual perfection. Proper icons of martyr-saints which show their martyrdom always show them as dispassionate. The hymnography of martyr-saints also speaks of their bravery, fortitude, and their anticipation of their heavenly reward for their refusal to renounce their faith. Many are known to have prayed for their tormentors, asking God to forgive them, as Christ did for those who crucified Him.

Here is a good example of a martyr accepting his fate, Protomartyr Stephen:

Fair enough. I thought you were mocking a 16 year-old girl for being a tad disconcerted over being burned alive.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2212 on: December 18, 2014, 10:49:40 PM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)
Let's burn you at the stake and see how much equanimity you have.  :P ::)

I didn't know that being a Saint meant being immune to fear and the pain of burning alive

Icons portray heavenly realities and spiritual perfection. Proper icons of martyr-saints which show their martyrdom always show them as dispassionate. The hymnography of martyr-saints also speaks of their bravery, fortitude, and their anticipation of their heavenly reward for their refusal to renounce their faith. Many are known to have prayed for their tormentors, asking God to forgive them, as Christ did for those who crucified Him.

Here is a good example of a martyr accepting his fate, Protomartyr Stephen:

Fair enough. I thought you were mocking a 16 year-old girl for being a tad disconcerted over being burned alive.

My mockery was not at all for the Maid of Orleans, but for the artist who painted this schlock, and who is presumptuous enough to hold himself out as an "authority on iconography".
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2213 on: December 18, 2014, 11:20:50 PM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)
Let's burn you at the stake and see how much equanimity you have.  :P ::)

I didn't know that being a Saint meant being immune to fear and the pain of burning alive

Icons portray heavenly realities and spiritual perfection. Proper icons of martyr-saints which show their martyrdom always show them as dispassionate. The hymnography of martyr-saints also speaks of their bravery, fortitude, and their anticipation of their heavenly reward for their refusal to renounce their faith. Many are known to have prayed for their tormentors, asking God to forgive them, as Christ did for those who crucified Him.

Here is a good example of a martyr accepting his fate, Protomartyr Stephen:

Fair enough. I thought you were mocking a 16 year-old girl for being a tad disconcerted over being burned alive.

My mockery was not at all for the Maid of Orleans, but for the artist who painted this schlock, and who is presumptuous enough to hold himself out as an "authority on iconography".

Ok. :)
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2214 on: December 19, 2014, 01:43:39 AM »
An angel helping baby Jesus across the street:



Another St. Anne Theotokostokos:


Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2215 on: December 19, 2014, 02:14:32 AM »
An angel helping baby Jesus across the street:



Ugh.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2216 on: December 19, 2014, 02:17:08 AM »
Another St. Anne Theotokostokos:




Ah, a favorite of the lamentable Prosopon "school". This is simply the analog of the uncanonical Paternity imagery, and both are unacceptable.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2217 on: December 19, 2014, 03:31:59 AM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)


Or look like this.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline hecma925

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2218 on: December 19, 2014, 03:32:12 AM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2219 on: December 19, 2014, 03:49:49 AM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)


Or look like this.

What's with the butterflies?  ???
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2220 on: December 19, 2014, 03:52:18 AM »


Yet another "icon" of the Divine Mercy imagery, which is not in Orthodox tradition.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2221 on: December 19, 2014, 03:58:39 AM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)


Or look like this.

What's with the butterflies?  ???

Lentz's paintings always have weird motifs.  That being said the explanation he writes:

Quote
White butterflies followed Joan wherever she rode with her unfurled banner. An English soldier made a crude cross of sticks and handed it to her shortly before she was burned. This nineteen-year-old martyr died rather than compromise the clear path shown by her conscience. In this she has been an inspiration for many in our own day.
https://www.trinitystores.com/store/art-image/st-joan-arc-1412-1431

No matter who he paints, they have similar facial features and dead eyes.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2222 on: December 19, 2014, 04:05:30 AM »
Quote
dead eyes.

An astute observation.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 04:05:51 AM by LBK »
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2223 on: December 19, 2014, 07:45:32 AM »


Yet another "icon" of the Divine Mercy imagery, which is not in Orthodox tradition.
And it makes the Mandorla look like the thing at the end of an old Looney Tunes short  :-\


Also, no offense to anybody who is, but I'm actually surprised Lentz isn't a pacifist who would scorn Joan of Arc. It seems like it should come with the territory for someone like him.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2224 on: December 19, 2014, 09:41:38 AM »


Yet another "icon" of the Divine Mercy imagery, which is not in Orthodox tradition.
What's with the lasers shooting out of his fingers?  ???
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Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2225 on: December 19, 2014, 09:59:40 AM »
The rays, according to Sister Faustina Kowalska who had the vision, represent the blood and water which flowed from the side of Christ.

Here's the Wikipedia article about it.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Mercy
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2226 on: December 19, 2014, 10:00:45 AM »
It's supposed to be light shining out from the wound in His side.

Here's one of the Western versions

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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2227 on: December 19, 2014, 11:17:12 AM »
It's a McNichols so it's low-hanging fruit, but...Whu?



It looks like St. Michael is holding Joan of Arc down in the flames.

.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)

I see this differently. It is a small picture, but it is her fingertips touching her chin to hold her head upright so that she can directly face what is ahead of her (her executioners, the crowd, God, I do not know). Her eyebrows are unnatural, if you have seen this technique before, I am curious. To me they suggest contrition.

"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2228 on: December 19, 2014, 11:30:27 AM »

I see this differently. It is a small picture, but it is her fingertips touching her chin to hold her head upright so that she can directly face what is ahead of her (her executioners, the crowd, God, I do not know). Her eyebrows are unnatural, if you have seen this technique before, I am curious. To me they suggest contrition.


I can see how it could be interpreted that way. And of course, there are icons that indicate sorrow (The Bridegroom, Mother Weep Not for Me).
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2229 on: December 19, 2014, 11:34:56 AM »


Is that, er, Eastern Catholic?

:) I can almost hear some of our more anti-ecumenical posters throwing their computers across the room.

It is Orthodox (you have inspired me to start using "er", but it doesn't fit in here).

It is a 1967 commemorative miniature from the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Vatican.

I would like a reproduction, but I haven't seen any. Er, two, I would donate one to New Skete.


That image is not an Orthodox icon. At best, it is simply a piece of wishful thinking. At worst, it promotes the "two lungs" idea, which is foreign to Orthodoxy.

What is the "two lungs" idea? Are there gradations in its interpretation or is it precise? I want to know if I am a foreigner.

Also, when was the idea invented? I am guessing it was not 1967, but I could be wrong.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2230 on: December 19, 2014, 12:46:36 PM »
It is the fallacious idea that the Orthodox Church is not the Church en toto but that together the Orthodox Church and the Latin Church are the two halves - or "two lungs" - of a separated Church.  It is an idea as old as it is false, but the first time I heard the phrase was in 1988 when Pope John Paul II said in reference to Orthodoxy and the Latin Church, "Europe has two lungs, it will never breathe easily until it uses both of them".
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2231 on: December 19, 2014, 12:49:09 PM »
And then the Branch Theory is the same thing except it also throws the Anglicans (and the Lutherans?) into the mix.
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2232 on: December 19, 2014, 12:57:03 PM »
And then the Branch Theory is the same thing except it also throws the Anglicans (and the Lutherans?) into the mix.
More or less.

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2233 on: December 21, 2014, 03:48:32 PM »
It is the fallacious idea that the Orthodox Church is not the Church en toto but that together the Orthodox Church and the Latin Church are the two halves - or "two lungs" - of a separated Church.  It is an idea as old as it is false, but the first time I heard the phrase was in 1988 when Pope John Paul II said in reference to Orthodoxy and the Latin Church, "Europe has two lungs, it will never breathe easily until it uses both of them".

Thanks. I often read posts about the two lungs but I always seem to forget what was written by the next day if not sooner. In your definition, the Roman Catholic church is also not a complete church. It wouldn't surprise me however that by their thinking, since they recognize the Sacraments of the Orthodox Catholic Church as valid, they are complete, whereas since we do not know if the Sacraments of the Roman Catholic are valid we are not complete. Do you have a problem with the term Sister Church? Just curious.

Let us hope we do not run into Sacred Heart and Lungs icons.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2234 on: December 21, 2014, 05:26:44 PM »
I personally usually reserve the appellation "sister church" for a church I can openly take communion in.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2235 on: December 21, 2014, 06:42:27 PM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2236 on: December 21, 2014, 06:48:10 PM »


IIRC a similar one was covered earlier in this thead. Matrioshka doll.

It's not the artistic style of this work that makes it schlock (even though the style has its own problems), but the content. It is theologically and doctrinally very off.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2237 on: December 21, 2014, 07:14:21 PM »
I personally usually reserve the appellation "sister church" for a church I can openly take communion in.

Well there's a difference between "can" and "may".

If I'm not mistaken, official Vatican policy is to allow EO and OO (and possible also ACOTE, although I'm not sure) to receive communion if they want to. Of course this policy is not reciprocated by the Orthodox, and you might end up in trouble with your own church if you do that and get found out.

But that raises the question: if X is willing to commune Y, but Y is not willing to commune X, is there a schism between X and Y or not? Or is it like Schrodinger's ecclesiology with them being both in communion and out of communion at the same time?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2238 on: December 21, 2014, 07:39:41 PM »
Or is it like Schrodinger's ecclesiology with them being both in communion and out of communion at the same time?
Theology is not an exact science.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2239 on: December 21, 2014, 11:10:32 PM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)


Or look like this.

What's with the butterflies?  ???


butterfly shmutterfly......i am MUCH more concerned with why she looks like Mr. Bean.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2240 on: December 21, 2014, 11:22:43 PM »
I personally usually reserve the appellation "sister church" for a church I can openly take communion in.

I actually like the term. Related by birth, but conceivably estranged, that only dialog will resolve.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2241 on: December 21, 2014, 11:23:02 PM »
.... and poor St Joan is utterly terrified, despite the archangel's presence. Hardly facing her fate with equanimity, is she?  :P ::)


Or look like this.

What's with the butterflies?  ???


butterfly shmutterfly......i am MUCH more concerned with why she looks like Mr. Bean.



 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 11:23:26 PM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2242 on: December 22, 2014, 02:30:48 AM »
I personally usually reserve the appellation "sister church" for a church I can openly take communion in.

Well there's a difference between "can" and "may".

If I'm not mistaken, official Vatican policy is to allow EO and OO (and possible also ACOTE, although I'm not sure) to receive communion if they want to. Of course this policy is not reciprocated by the Orthodox, and you might end up in trouble with your own church if you do that and get found out.

But that raises the question: if X is willing to commune Y, but Y is not willing to commune X, is there a schism between X and Y or not? Or is it like Schrodinger's ecclesiology with them being both in communion and out of communion at the same time?
it depends on how you view the church. For instance, I might consider Greek Orthodox a "sister church" even though I can't openly commune in her. Given the chance though, I wholeheartedly would commune with no problems to my conscience.  OTOH, RCs, while can be considered "estranged sister" in comparison to my church and her dogmas, even though she may allow me to commune, my conscience wouldn't allow me to consider it.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2243 on: December 22, 2014, 08:57:11 AM »
In your definition, the Roman Catholic church is also not a complete church.

An astute observation, though I'm sure that if pressed one of our resident Roman Catholic apologists will be able to explain to us how the Latin Church can simultaneously be both the complete Church and the Western lung of a separated Church (that is, if we find one sympathetic to Pope John Paul's idea).

Do you have a problem with the term Sister Church? Just curious.

Like Mina, I'm more comfortable reserving the term "sister church" for a church with which my jurisdiction is in full and open communion.

Let us hope we do not run into Sacred Heart and Lungs icons.

Thanks!  I needed a chuckle this morning.  ;D

Well there's a difference between "can" and "may".

If I'm not mistaken, official Vatican policy is to allow EO and OO (and possible also ACOTE, although I'm not sure) to receive communion if they want to. Of course this policy is not reciprocated by the Orthodox, and you might end up in trouble with your own church if you do that and get found out.

You're right.  That is their policy on all counts.  EO, OO, and ACoE can freely approach the chalice in Roman Catholic churches.  I've been invited myself a time or two.

But that raises the question: if X is willing to commune Y, but Y is not willing to commune X, is there a schism between X and Y or not? Or is it like Schrodinger's ecclesiology with them being both in communion and out of communion at the same time?

I'd say there is indeed a schism.  A great many Protestant churches practice open communion and would freely welcome any "baptized Christian" from just about any jurisdiction, including the EO, the OO, the ACoE, the Latins, et cetera.  That doesn't mean that any of us are in communion with them.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2244 on: December 22, 2014, 08:42:30 PM »
A product of the disturbing internet fandom known as the "Holmies", who admire Colorado theater shooter James Holmes.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2245 on: December 24, 2014, 12:17:33 PM »
Stoned Christ

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2246 on: December 24, 2014, 12:44:29 PM »
Why would someone make stuff like that? It looks the most correct out of all the shlock icons, but it is still wrong. Jesus with a handlebar mustache like that would be cool in real life, but that didn't happen, so it's not up to the writer to do that. There's also no towel, which is very odd if this was intended to be a "Not-Made-By-Hands" icon.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2247 on: December 24, 2014, 01:16:48 PM »
Why would someone make stuff like that? It looks the most correct out of all the shlock icons, but it is still wrong. Jesus with a handlebar mustache like that would be cool in real life, but that didn't happen, so it's not up to the writer to do that. There's also no towel, which is very odd if this was intended to be a "Not-Made-By-Hands" icon.

The main problem here is He is smiling.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2248 on: December 25, 2014, 11:29:56 AM »
Why would someone make stuff like that? It looks the most correct out of all the shlock icons, but it is still wrong. Jesus with a handlebar mustache like that would be cool in real life, but that didn't happen, so it's not up to the writer to do that. There's also no towel, which is very odd if this was intended to be a "Not-Made-By-Hands" icon.

The main problem here is He is smiling.

True.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2249 on: December 26, 2014, 02:35:26 AM »
A Christmas Eve Tweet from Ayatollah Khamenei.



Notice how they blurred out Jesus' face.
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