Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 492153 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2070 on: December 02, 2014, 03:07:10 PM »
So what is the procedure for painting Saints in historically correct clothing? I thought they all had to be dressed in ancient robes if they weren't clergy.


VENERATING
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2071 on: December 02, 2014, 03:09:55 PM »
So what is the procedure for painting Saints in historically correct clothing? I thought they all had to be dressed in ancient robes if they weren't clergy.


VENERATING

I was wondering why Jesus would need a tablet? ???

Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2072 on: December 02, 2014, 03:23:02 PM »
The whole thing with icons at New Skete Monastery reminds me this:

It's in Monastery of the Transfiguration at the Meteora. Anyone can explain how this came to be?

Don't see a problem there really. They lack halos, therefore, they are not Saints. They, in many ways, were pagans whose philosphical work sometimes reflected what Christ would come to teach. They laid the groundwork that then allowed Christianity to enter Greece and spread. Many Christians and Church Fathers also found a lot of light in their writings.

Just because someone is depicted in an icon doesn't mean the iconographer is calling that person a Saint.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2073 on: December 02, 2014, 03:27:04 PM »
Not Thucydides. Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2074 on: December 02, 2014, 03:37:28 PM »
So what is the procedure for painting Saints in historically correct clothing? I thought they all had to be dressed in ancient robes if they weren't clergy.


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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2075 on: December 02, 2014, 05:53:03 PM »
Not Thucydides. Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.

That may be your opinion. But I'm going to trust the holy monks that dwelled on Meteora before a random opinion on the net.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2076 on: December 02, 2014, 06:05:11 PM »
You mean the monks who foment schism, invented name-worship and have dodgy "all-seeing eye" symbols on their buildings? Being a monk does not make one beyond criticism
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2077 on: December 02, 2014, 06:24:02 PM »
So what is the procedure for painting Saints in historically correct clothing? I thought they all had to be dressed in ancient robes if they weren't clergy.


VENERATING

I was wondering why Jesus would need a tablet? ???
indeed...therefore because of kenosis, He voluntarily uses one :P
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2078 on: December 02, 2014, 06:54:28 PM »
You mean the monks who foment schism, invented name-worship and have dodgy "all-seeing eye" symbols on their buildings? Being a monk does not make one beyond criticism

Neither does being a Protestant.  Let the abbots and monastics deal with their own buildings.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2079 on: December 02, 2014, 07:04:47 PM »
You mean the monks who foment schism, invented name-worship and have dodgy "all-seeing eye" symbols on their buildings? Being a monk does not make one beyond criticism

Correct. Being a monk with a fancy beard on the other hand...
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2080 on: December 02, 2014, 07:48:14 PM »
^ ID these men, please.

From left to right:

Homer the poet, Thucydides the historian, Aristotle the philosopher, and Plato the philosopher. All the inscriptions are prefixed with the title "O Ellin" (The Hellene).

And right of Plato (if you scroll) is Plutarch.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2081 on: December 03, 2014, 01:48:26 AM »
The Pantocrator of Hazzard County.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2082 on: December 03, 2014, 01:53:50 AM »


A billboard for St. Matthew in the City, an Anglican church in Auckland, New Zealand.

St. Matthew in the City was involved in the creation of the Queen James Bible, a new translation that edits the KJV to remove certain, um, "insensitive" passages.

« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 01:56:00 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2083 on: December 03, 2014, 01:56:09 AM »
The Pantocrator of Hazzard County.



This reminds of a Protestant testimony, where the narrator claims that the words of the Bible came flying out of His Bible and the video showed the words flying like little ferries spreading ferry dust.  This was no caricature too, but a real testimony with, I suppose, "well-intentioned" special effects.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 01:57:00 AM by minasoliman »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2084 on: December 03, 2014, 12:25:10 PM »
So what is the procedure for painting Saints in historically correct clothing? I thought they all had to be dressed in ancient robes if they weren't clergy.
The only icon I have seen of Saint Alexander Schmorell (the 20th century anti-fascist) depicts him in a medical jacket wearing a shirt with button sleeves and a collar under it.

It ain't schlock, though whoever rendered it tried their hardest to make the medical jacket look like a robe.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 12:26:01 PM by Agabus »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2085 on: December 03, 2014, 02:07:17 PM »
So what is the procedure for painting Saints in historically correct clothing? I thought they all had to be dressed in ancient robes if they weren't clergy.
The only icon I have seen of Saint Alexander Schmorell (the 20th century anti-fascist) depicts him in a medical jacket wearing a shirt with button sleeves and a collar under it.

It ain't schlock, though whoever rendered it tried their hardest to make the medical jacket look like a robe.

Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2086 on: December 03, 2014, 02:08:43 PM »
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

Offline Arachne

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2087 on: December 03, 2014, 03:16:32 PM »
Not Thucydides.

You haven't read Anna Comnena or any other Byzantine historians, have you?

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.

Crap like 'there is neither Jew nor Greek'?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2088 on: December 03, 2014, 03:20:48 PM »
So what is the procedure for painting Saints in historically correct clothing? I thought they all had to be dressed in ancient robes if they weren't clergy.

St George of Ioannina certainly isn't.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2089 on: December 03, 2014, 03:24:27 PM »

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.

[/quote]

Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2090 on: December 03, 2014, 04:11:08 PM »
Not Thucydides.

You haven't read Anna Comnena or any other Byzantine historians, have you?
Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.
Crap like 'there is neither Jew nor Greek'?
That's closer to antinationalism.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2091 on: December 03, 2014, 04:13:00 PM »

Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?
That's because their nationality is something distinctive about them, isn't it? I wouldn't think a Greek monastery would need to specify that these are a bunch of Greek guys.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 04:13:34 PM by Volnutt »
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2092 on: December 03, 2014, 04:28:59 PM »
Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.

It's time to just come out and say that, if someone was seminal of Greek thought, he was important, by a remove or two, to the Church. Suck it up. ;)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 04:29:36 PM by Porter ODoran »
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2093 on: December 03, 2014, 06:55:24 PM »
Not Thucydides.

You haven't read Anna Comnena or any other Byzantine historians, have you?

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.

Crap like 'there is neither Jew nor Greek'?

Well, if there is neither Jew nor Greek, why does the icon/painting need to go out of its way to point out that he is Greek?
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2094 on: December 03, 2014, 06:57:27 PM »

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.
Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?

Apples and oranges. Most people who talk about St. Peter the Aleut are not themselves Aleut. I suspect most Orthodox Aleuts would call him by a different name, maybe his native name? If they kept calling him "St. Peter the Aleut", it would sound a bit like they were bragging that he was one of their own, which is how the inscription on the monastery comes across.

Could you imagine a monastery in the USA having an icon honoring "St. Alexis Toth the American?"
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 07:00:49 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2095 on: December 03, 2014, 07:19:02 PM »

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.
Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?

Apples and oranges. Most people who talk about St. Peter the Aleut are not themselves Aleut. I suspect most Orthodox Aleuts would call him by a different name, maybe his native name? If they kept calling him "St. Peter the Aleut", it would sound a bit like they were bragging that he was one of their own, which is how the inscription on the monastery comes across.

Could you imagine a monastery in the USA having an icon honoring "St. Alexis Toth the American?"


To you.

I wouldn't know if Orthodox Aleuts do call him by his original name or not, but the Church knows him by St. Peter the Aleut.  Also, most Alaska natives learn English side-by-side with their native languages, if not just English.

Give it several hundred years and there may just be a saint with his name appended with "the American" just to differentiate him from others. 
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2096 on: December 03, 2014, 07:34:50 PM »

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.
Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?

Apples and oranges. Most people who talk about St. Peter the Aleut are not themselves Aleut. I suspect most Orthodox Aleuts would call him by a different name, maybe his native name? If they kept calling him "St. Peter the Aleut", it would sound a bit like they were bragging that he was one of their own, which is how the inscription on the monastery comes across.

Could you imagine a monastery in the USA having an icon honoring "St. Alexis Toth the American?"

I dunno, in the Syriac Orthodox Church church at least, St. Ephraim the Syrian is still called Mar Afrem Suryoyo. I don't see why it should be different for other cultures.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2097 on: December 03, 2014, 07:50:41 PM »

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.
Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?

Apples and oranges. Most people who talk about St. Peter the Aleut are not themselves Aleut. I suspect most Orthodox Aleuts would call him by a different name, maybe his native name? If they kept calling him "St. Peter the Aleut", it would sound a bit like they were bragging that he was one of their own, which is how the inscription on the monastery comes across.

Could you imagine a monastery in the USA having an icon honoring "St. Alexis Toth the American?"

I dunno, in the Syriac Orthodox Church church at least, St. Ephraim the Syrian is still called Mar Afrem Suryoyo. I don't see why it should be different for other cultures.

Really? I didn't know that....I guess I just assumed that that they'd have to call him something different. I guess you can't always trust your assumptions.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 07:51:22 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2098 on: December 03, 2014, 07:53:50 PM »

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.
Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?

Apples and oranges. Most people who talk about St. Peter the Aleut are not themselves Aleut. I suspect most Orthodox Aleuts would call him by a different name, maybe his native name? If they kept calling him "St. Peter the Aleut", it would sound a bit like they were bragging that he was one of their own, which is how the inscription on the monastery comes across.

Could you imagine a monastery in the USA having an icon honoring "St. Alexis Toth the American?"

I dunno, in the Syriac Orthodox Church church at least, St. Ephraim the Syrian is still called Mar Afrem Suryoyo. I don't see why it should be different for other cultures.
If there's more than one Saint X, the ethnic qualifier serves as an identifier. With more modern saints, we have gotten around having to use them because — at least in "the west" — we have surnames to identify people.

Re: St. Alexis, I have seen an icon that calls him "St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre."
« Last Edit: December 03, 2014, 07:54:21 PM by Agabus »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2099 on: December 03, 2014, 07:57:49 PM »
Not Thucydides.

You haven't read Anna Comnena or any other Byzantine historians, have you?

Besides, the inscription "The Hellene" makes it sounds like this is just nationalist crap.

Crap like 'there is neither Jew nor Greek'?

Well, if there is neither Jew nor Greek, why does the icon/painting need to go out of its way to point out that he is Greek?

Obvious comment is obvious, but 'Greek' at the time didn't exactly mean what it means today.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2100 on: December 03, 2014, 09:46:46 PM »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2101 on: December 03, 2014, 10:11:02 PM »
Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.

It's time to just come out and say that, if someone was seminal of Greek thought, he was important, by a remove or two, to the Church. Suck it up. ;)
I'm not against Greek thought. I just don't take everything Holy St. Plato the Apostle said as Gospel like you do. ;)
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Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2102 on: December 03, 2014, 10:42:20 PM »
Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.

It's time to just come out and say that, if someone was seminal of Greek thought, he was important, by a remove or two, to the Church. Suck it up. ;)
I'm not against Greek thought. I just don't take everything Holy St. Plato the Apostle said as Gospel like you do. ;)

It's more a matter of coming to realize what the whole framework of our thought and speech and activity we owe to certain ancient Greeks. The Church had a particularly close connection, but all of society has a great connection of which we tend to be risibly unaware.
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Offline 88Devin12

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2103 on: December 03, 2014, 11:49:38 PM »

Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?
That's because their nationality is something distinctive about them, isn't it? I wouldn't think a Greek monastery would need to specify that these are a bunch of Greek guys.

Not Thucydides.

You haven't read Anna Comnena or any other Byzantine historians, have you?
Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.
Crap like 'there is neither Jew nor Greek'?
That's closer to antinationalism.

Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.

It's time to just come out and say that, if someone was seminal of Greek thought, he was important, by a remove or two, to the Church. Suck it up. ;)
I'm not against Greek thought. I just don't take everything Holy St. Plato the Apostle said as Gospel like you do. ;)

I like how some people (whether Protestant or otherwise) like to come onto Orthodox websites to "teach us a lesson" on how we are wrong and that we shouldn't believe or practice as we do, and tell us how wrong we, or our holy men are, like they were some sort of armchair crusaders.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2104 on: December 04, 2014, 12:21:31 AM »
I like how some people (whether Protestant or otherwise) like to come onto Orthodox websites to "teach us a lesson" on how we are wrong and that we shouldn't believe or practice as we do, and tell us how wrong we, or our holy men are, like they were some sort of armchair crusaders.

I like how some people (whether Protestant or otherwise) like to come onto Orthodox websites to "teach us a lesson" on how we are wrong and that we shouldn't believe or practice as we do, and tell us how wrong we, or our holy men are, like they were some sort of armchair crusaders.
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2105 on: December 04, 2014, 01:00:46 AM »

Merely identifying them as Hellenes is not wrong.  Think of St. Peter the Aleut or St. Moses the Ethiopian.  Is that nationalist crap?
That's because their nationality is something distinctive about them, isn't it? I wouldn't think a Greek monastery would need to specify that these are a bunch of Greek guys.

Not Thucydides.

You haven't read Anna Comnena or any other Byzantine historians, have you?
Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.
Crap like 'there is neither Jew nor Greek'?
That's closer to antinationalism.

Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.

It's time to just come out and say that, if someone was seminal of Greek thought, he was important, by a remove or two, to the Church. Suck it up. ;)
I'm not against Greek thought. I just don't take everything Holy St. Plato the Apostle said as Gospel like you do. ;)

I like how some people (whether Protestant or otherwise) like to come onto Orthodox websites to "teach us a lesson" on how we are wrong and that we shouldn't believe or practice as we do, and tell us how wrong we, or our holy men are, like they were some sort of armchair crusaders.
I like how you think me criticizing one practice of one monastery is equivalent to threatening to stab you if you don't agree with me.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2106 on: December 04, 2014, 01:04:40 AM »
Excerpts. I love Thucydides, but the person I was responding to said that it was about those who had contributed to Orthodox theology.

It's time to just come out and say that, if someone was seminal of Greek thought, he was important, by a remove or two, to the Church. Suck it up. ;)
I'm not against Greek thought. I just don't take everything Holy St. Plato the Apostle said as Gospel like you do. ;)

It's more a matter of coming to realize what the whole framework of our thought and speech and activity we owe to certain ancient Greeks. The Church had a particularly close connection, but all of society has a great connection of which we tend to be risibly unaware.
And what of Second Temple Jewish thought?
Quote
The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2107 on: December 04, 2014, 02:10:36 AM »
Not a bad guy, but you know, canons:

« Last Edit: December 04, 2014, 02:10:55 AM by Agabus »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2108 on: December 04, 2014, 02:33:28 AM »
Other than the pose, is it wrong for someone who considers Jonathan Daniels to be among the Saints to have that icon for private veneration? Is it possible for a priest to bless it?
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The breath of Thine Holy Spirit inspires artists, poets and scientists. The power of Thy supreme knowledge makes them prophets and interpreters of Thy laws, who reveal the depths of Thy creative wisdom. Their works speak unwittingly of Thee. How great art Thou in Thy creation! How great art Thou in man!
Akathist Hymn- Glory to God for All Things

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2109 on: December 04, 2014, 03:21:24 AM »

Quote
Re: St. Alexis, I have seen an icon that calls him "St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre."

Which is how it should be. Personal surnames should not be used in iconographic inscriptions. They are of this world, not of the next.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2110 on: December 04, 2014, 03:21:24 AM »
Other than the pose, is it wrong for someone who considers Jonathan Daniels to be among the Saints to have that icon for private veneration? Is it possible for a priest to bless it?

No. Jonathan Daniels was not a member of the Orthodox Church.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2111 on: December 04, 2014, 12:16:34 PM »

Quote
Re: St. Alexis, I have seen an icon that calls him "St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre."

Which is how it should be. Personal surnames should not be used in iconographic inscriptions. They are of this world, not of the next.


Wilkes-Barre is of the world to come and not of this passing world?
Please don't project meta-debates onto me.

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The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2112 on: December 05, 2014, 01:00:04 AM »

Quote
Re: St. Alexis, I have seen an icon that calls him "St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre."

Which is how it should be. Personal surnames should not be used in iconographic inscriptions. They are of this world, not of the next.


Wilkes-Barre is of the world to come and not of this passing world?

As it is written in the Bible:  "Heaven and Earth, except Pennsylvania, will pass away..."
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2113 on: December 05, 2014, 05:31:03 AM »

Quote
Re: St. Alexis, I have seen an icon that calls him "St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre."

Which is how it should be. Personal surnames should not be used in iconographic inscriptions. They are of this world, not of the next.


Wilkes-Barre is of the world to come and not of this passing world?

Toth was his surname in the world. Wilkes-Barre is simply a geographic description, just as a bishop is known by the name of his see.  :police:
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #2114 on: December 05, 2014, 04:02:29 PM »

Quote
Re: St. Alexis, I have seen an icon that calls him "St. Alexis of Wilkes-Barre."

Which is how it should be. Personal surnames should not be used in iconographic inscriptions. They are of this world, not of the next.


Wilkes-Barre is of the world to come and not of this passing world?

As it is written in the Bible:  "Heaven and Earth, except Pennsylvania, will pass away..."
If people can say "Holy Russia" with a straight face, why not start a "Holy Pennslyvania" movement? They've got lots of Orthodoxy.  :police:
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH