Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 470657 times)

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1890 on: September 08, 2014, 01:56:17 PM »
Why don't they paint that stuff over, now that they are Orthodox?

I saw nothing on that group's website that said they were Orthodox.

a few of those are in New Skete I believe

.... and the artwork in New Skete is an affront to iconography, with various non-Orthodox figures painted in the nave of one of their churches.  >:(

I suspect you have seen worse.  l like it and their justification: 
http://newskete.blogspot.com/2014/08/sanctity-reflection-on-images-in-our.html.

Apparently the iconographer was from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville. The person was not identified.

"Does anyone doubt that these saintly individuals stand side by side in heaven, where God sees no division between his children?" If this is to be the basis for discerning Saints, then whom wouldn't we put in an icon?
Miley Cyrus?
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1891 on: September 08, 2014, 02:51:59 PM »
"Does anyone doubt that these saintly individuals stand side by side in heaven, where God sees no division between his children?" If this is to be the basis for discerning Saints, then whom wouldn't we put in an icon?

To be fair, if an individual is in fact "in heaven," then it is meet and right to depict them in icons. So that quoted comment doesn't imply, necessarily or otherwise, a free-for-all of saints in icons.

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1892 on: September 08, 2014, 06:43:46 PM »
Why don't they paint that stuff over, now that they are Orthodox?
Those were painted after they were received into the Orthodox Church.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1893 on: September 08, 2014, 06:44:56 PM »
Why don't they paint that stuff over, now that they are Orthodox?
Those were painted after they were received into the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy.

And they were received by ____ ???
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1894 on: September 08, 2014, 07:18:37 PM »
Why don't they paint that stuff over, now that they are Orthodox?

I saw nothing on that group's website that said they were Orthodox.

a few of those are in New Skete I believe

.... and the artwork in New Skete is an affront to iconography, with various non-Orthodox figures painted in the nave of one of their churches.  >:(

I suspect you have seen worse.  l like it and their justification: 
http://newskete.blogspot.com/2014/08/sanctity-reflection-on-images-in-our.html.

Apparently the iconographer was from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville. The person was not identified.



This is not true. The "iconographer" might have had some iconographic tuition at Jordanville, but was not himself Orthodox. I hope to find the message which an iconographer friend sent me several years ago, describing the situation.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1895 on: September 08, 2014, 07:24:09 PM »
http://www.newskete.org/ecclesiastical.html

Don't know if this helps at all. It's from the New Skete site, though.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1896 on: September 08, 2014, 07:26:15 PM »
Why don't they paint that stuff over, now that they are Orthodox?
Those were painted after they were received into the Orthodox Church.

Lord have mercy.

And they were received by ____ ???
Metropolitan Theodosius (OCA)
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Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1897 on: September 08, 2014, 07:30:05 PM »
I wonder if removing the icons, especially if they were painted directly onto the wall, would cost too much, or cause too much damage to the walls. Just a thought.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1898 on: September 08, 2014, 07:32:48 PM »
I wonder if removing the icons, especially if they were painted directly onto the wall, would cost too much, or cause too much damage to the walls. Just a thought.

Black spray paint can't be that expensive.
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Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1899 on: September 08, 2014, 07:38:44 PM »
I wonder if removing the icons, especially if they were painted directly onto the wall, would cost too much, or cause too much damage to the walls. Just a thought.

Black spray paint can't be that expensive.

Aww, c'mon. You know they're not going to just put a chunk of black spray paint up there. Nobody wants to go into a church or monastery and see big black rectangles or what have you. It looks weird.

 :P
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1900 on: September 08, 2014, 07:53:48 PM »
Why don't they paint that stuff over, now that they are Orthodox?

I saw nothing on that group's website that said they were Orthodox.

a few of those are in New Skete I believe

.... and the artwork in New Skete is an affront to iconography, with various non-Orthodox figures painted in the nave of one of their churches.  >:(

I suspect you have seen worse.  l like it and their justification: 
http://newskete.blogspot.com/2014/08/sanctity-reflection-on-images-in-our.html.

Apparently the iconographer was from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville. The person was not identified.



This is not true. The "iconographer" might have had some iconographic tuition at Jordanville, but was not himself Orthodox. I hope to find the message which an iconographer friend sent me several years ago, describing the situation.
Some of the New Skete nuns and companions are iconographers as well, and it is their work in the Church of Holy Wisdom.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1901 on: September 08, 2014, 07:55:23 PM »
I wonder if removing the icons, especially if they were painted directly onto the wall, would cost too much, or cause too much damage to the walls. Just a thought.
New Skete is not ashamed of them nor do they have any inclination to remove them.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1902 on: September 08, 2014, 07:57:16 PM »
Why don't they paint that stuff over, now that they are Orthodox?

I saw nothing on that group's website that said they were Orthodox.

a few of those are in New Skete I believe

.... and the artwork in New Skete is an affront to iconography, with various non-Orthodox figures painted in the nave of one of their churches.  >:(

I suspect you have seen worse.  l like it and their justification: 
http://newskete.blogspot.com/2014/08/sanctity-reflection-on-images-in-our.html.

Apparently the iconographer was from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville. The person was not identified.



This is not true. The "iconographer" might have had some iconographic tuition at Jordanville, but was not himself Orthodox. I hope to find the message which an iconographer friend sent me several years ago, describing the situation.
Some of the New Skete nuns and companions are iconographers as well, and it is their work in the Church of Holy Wisdom.

That's beside the point. The painting of heterodox figures in the nave of an Orthodox church is wrong. Period. Just because the nuns painted these images doesn't automatically make them right.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1903 on: September 08, 2014, 07:58:20 PM »
I wonder if removing the icons, especially if they were painted directly onto the wall, would cost too much, or cause too much damage to the walls. Just a thought.
New Skete is not ashamed of them nor do they have any inclination to remove them.

More's the pity. Continuing to remain in stubborn error. Not good. Not good at all.
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Offline Theophania

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1904 on: September 08, 2014, 07:59:44 PM »
Why don't they paint that stuff over, now that they are Orthodox?

I saw nothing on that group's website that said they were Orthodox.

a few of those are in New Skete I believe

.... and the artwork in New Skete is an affront to iconography, with various non-Orthodox figures painted in the nave of one of their churches.  >:(

I suspect you have seen worse.  l like it and their justification: 
http://newskete.blogspot.com/2014/08/sanctity-reflection-on-images-in-our.html.

Apparently the iconographer was from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville. The person was not identified.

"Does anyone doubt that these saintly individuals stand side by side in heaven, where God sees no division between his children?" If this is to be the basis for discerning Saints, then whom wouldn't we put in an icon?
Miley Cyrus?

St. Constantine
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1905 on: September 08, 2014, 08:00:12 PM »
I wonder if removing the icons, especially if they were painted directly onto the wall, would cost too much, or cause too much damage to the walls. Just a thought.

Black spray paint can't be that expensive.

Aww, c'mon. You know they're not going to just put a chunk of black spray paint up there. Nobody wants to go into a church or monastery and see big black rectangles or what have you. It looks weird.

 :P

No black paint required to obliterate them. Two or three coats of ceiling paint should mask the paintings nicely, then repaint the wall a suitable background color, and add proper icons accordingly.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1906 on: September 08, 2014, 08:41:43 PM »
There are too many comments, so I am not quoting them specifically.

This is the text I am referring to:

"By late 2000 some of the icons on the upper level of the nave were being painted and installed by an iconographer from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, New York. The style was reminiscent of the Byzantine church in Ravenna, Italy, with a “parade of figures” on the upper walls of both sides of the nave. As with many church decoration projects, the issue that stirs up controversy is not the arrangement of the icons but the subjects. We were no different than many other churches in making decisions based on the collective wisdom of the community, which desired to have the charism of the community represented in the choice of icon subjects. We were looking for examples of holiness not only in the distant past but also closer to our times. We wanted to find individuals who were icons of values we hold dear and seek to share. We looked for individuals who advanced the development and renewal of liturgy, others who dedicated themselves to helping the disadvantaged in our times, leaders who believed in ecumenism. We wanted women and married persons to be included. We crafted a concept of sanctity born of a belief in inclusivity and not restricted to those individuals already recognized officially.

However, by selecting some individuals for portrayal who were outside the usual boundaries of traditional Orthodox consciousness, critical voices were raised against us from within Orthodox circles and even within our church administration. At this point we felt we had to stand firm behind the decisions the community had made. But we also wanted to do so in a positive way. Needless to say, correspondence and meetings ensued, which, as the saying goes, included “frank exchanges of views.” In the midst of that dialogue, I gave a Sunday reflection in April 2002 attempting to summarize our position. [Click here Sanctity article] Finally we reached a point where during a visit to New Skete by Metropolitan Herman the issue was laid to rest when he stated that even though he might have preferred a different decision on the choice of images for our walls, he did not have any intention of requiring that the community’s decision be overturned."

From: http://newskete.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-agony-and-ecstasy.html

Metropolitan Jonah also had nice things to say about New Skete in a 2009 Q&A:
Q:
What of the fate of New Skete? Having come into the OCA from the Catholic Church in the seventies, this monastic community in many respects differs from what we have been accustomed to see in Orthodox communities - if only in their veneration of St. Francis of Assisi.
A:
"New Skete is a unique place. They live according to their own life and it is not becoming to interfere in it. I profoundly respect them as a community - a mature community. The relationships among the monastics are excellent. They introduced certain particularities in the Divine Services but carried this out with great love and devotion - even though these do not always resemble the Russian or the Greek Typikon. In my opinion they are criticized very hastily."

Source:http://www.ocanews.org/news/JonahInterview5.6.09.html

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1907 on: September 08, 2014, 09:42:57 PM »
Burn it down.  Burn it with fire.  Burn everything.  Let not even one cheesecake survive.  It is dedicated to the LORD for destruction.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1908 on: September 08, 2014, 10:33:23 PM »
Burn it down.  Burn it with fire.  Burn everything.  Let not even one cheesecake survive.  It is dedicated to the LORD for destruction.

I've been on this forum too long -- none of this, if I thought it was serious, could even make me raise my eyebrows.
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1909 on: September 08, 2014, 11:06:41 PM »


Tried to think of a way to turn 'Imagine' into a troparian, but couldn't make it work.
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Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1910 on: September 08, 2014, 11:09:01 PM »


Tried to think of a way to turn 'Imagine' into a troparian, but couldn't make it work.

I would have much rather seen George fall victim to posthumous shlock. R.I.P.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 11:09:22 PM by lovesupreme »

Offline Agabus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1911 on: September 08, 2014, 11:14:23 PM »

I would have much rather seen George fall victim to posthumous shlock. R.I.P.
The irony of the only Beatle who kept his Hinduism giving a Christian blessing aside, I present you with Saint George Harrison:

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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1912 on: September 08, 2014, 11:41:37 PM »
Burn it down.  Burn it with fire.  Burn everything.  Let not even one cheesecake survive.  It is dedicated to the LORD for destruction.

The dogs would have to go as well, if that's the case.  :P
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1913 on: September 09, 2014, 12:06:30 AM »
Quote
"By late 2000 some of the icons on the upper level of the nave were being painted and installed by an iconographer from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, New York. The style was reminiscent of the Byzantine church in Ravenna, Italy, with a “parade of figures” on the upper walls of both sides of the nave. As with many church decoration projects, the issue that stirs up controversy is not the arrangement of the icons but the subjects. We were no different than many other churches in making decisions based on the collective wisdom of the community, which desired to have the charism of the community represented in the choice of icon subjects. We were looking for examples of holiness not only in the distant past but also closer to our times. We wanted to find individuals who were icons of values we hold dear and seek to share. We looked for individuals who advanced the development and renewal of liturgy, others who dedicated themselves to helping the disadvantaged in our times, leaders who believed in ecumenism. We wanted women and married persons to be included. We crafted a concept of sanctity born of a belief in inclusivity and not restricted to those individuals already recognized officially.

However, by selecting some individuals for portrayal who were outside the usual boundaries of traditional Orthodox consciousness, critical voices were raised against us from within Orthodox circles and even within our church administration. At this point we felt we had to stand firm behind the decisions the community had made. But we also wanted to do so in a positive way. Needless to say, correspondence and meetings ensued, which, as the saying goes, included “frank exchanges of views.” In the midst of that dialogue, I gave a Sunday reflection in April 2002 attempting to summarize our position. [Click here Sanctity article] Finally we reached a point where during a visit to New Skete by Metropolitan Herman the issue was laid to rest when he stated that even though he might have preferred a different decision on the choice of images for our walls, he did not have any intention of requiring that the community’s decision be overturned."

A few comments:

1. The person who painted the "icons" was NOT "an iconographer from Jordanville". I am told he had a brief association with the Jordanville monastery iconography school.  Following the painting of the heterodox images at New Skete, the news began circulating that the painter was "an iconographer from Jordanville". This caused immense consternation and embarrassment among the Jordanville monastics, including the iconographers.

2. It doesn't matter at all what the "philosophy" was behind the choice of subjects for these murals. It also is completely irrelevant that the New Skete monastics were originally Franciscan Eastern Catholics. Once they were received into the Orthodox Church, they were obliged to "cast the old man aside". This includes the renunciation of all teachings, beliefs and practices not compatible with Orthodoxy, including any liturgical veneration of non-Orthodox saints (they liturgically commemorate Sts Francis of Assisi and Clare of Assisi), and the painting of "iconographic" imagery of non-Orthodox people within their churches.

Does the Church allow Holy Communion to be given to people who have not been baptized Orthodox? If not, why not? It is the same principle which does not allow the portrayal of people not of an Orthodox baptism (or martyrdom, if we count the holy martyrs of earlier centuries, whose baptism was by their own blood as they confessed the faith) in our churches.

Sure, non-Orthodox people are very welcome to visit our churches, be it for liturgy, weddings, baptisms, or for any other service. They are not, however, permitted to take communion. It is not "economia" at all to allow these images to be painted on the walls. This is attempting to conform the Church and her saints to our own image, our own thoughts, our own feelings, our own "philosophies". Should we not be instead trying to conform ourselves to the image of God?

Dorothy Day, Pope Paul VI and Mother Theresa may have lived "good and pious lives" and can be a source of inspiration, but, the fact remains, they were not Orthodox. Halo or no halo, these images simply should not be there. It was a grave mistake on the part of the Metropolitan of the time to have allowed such portrayals on the walls of this church. The murals at New Skete are little different to the syncretist rubbish of Robert Lentz and his proteges, or the "Dancing Saints" abomination at St Gregory's Episcopal, and even worse than these, as they disgrace the walls of a church of an Orthodox jurisdiction.

Moreover, the portrayals of the non-Orthodox figures in the New Skete church are in the same form and size as the other figures who are Orthodox saints. An observer could easily be led to believe that Dorothy Day, Michael Ramsey, et al, are considered to be in good standing with the Orthodox Church, even perhaps that the Church is considering their glorification as saints. This is the very great danger of the presence of these images, that people are allowed to develop a distorted view of what Orthodoxy is and stands for. Let us not forget that there are many aspects of Roman Catholic, Anglican, etc doctrines and dogmas which are contrary and inimical with those of Orthodoxy. In the light of all this, how on earth could the presence of these figures be justified?

A bishop's job is to "rightly divide the word of thy truth". As Orthodox Christians, real love for Christ and our Church is in purity of faith in addition to acts of love for all those around us regardless of religious conviction. If Metropolitan Herman truly "loved" them, he would have corrected them out of his love for them and the faith. It's his job. It is a disgrace that he chose to not take the proper path on this matter.

Like in any aspect of Orthodoxy, we must get certain things right. Icons are a potent and essential visual expression of the teachings and theology of the Orthodox Church, they are mirrors of the Truth. An iconographer has no less a responsibility to get it right, to reflect God's truths in his work, than does a priest when serving, or a hymnographer when composing hymns or canons.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 12:34:05 AM by LBK »
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1914 on: September 09, 2014, 12:09:11 AM »
Burn it down.  Burn it with fire.  Burn everything.  Let not even one cheesecake survive.  It is dedicated to the LORD for destruction.

The dogs would have to go as well, if that's the case.  :P

From what I read, they will be accepting applications for the German Shepard puppies in November.

And for full disclosure, I first heard of New Skete when I was investigating how to house train my Beagle puppy in the mid 1990s (generally difficult). My responses are also sentimental.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1915 on: September 09, 2014, 01:51:02 AM »
Quote
"By late 2000 some of the icons on the upper level of the nave were being painted and installed by an iconographer from Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, New York. The style was reminiscent of the Byzantine church in Ravenna, Italy, with a “parade of figures” on the upper walls of both sides of the nave. As with many church decoration projects, the issue that stirs up controversy is not the arrangement of the icons but the subjects. We were no different than many other churches in making decisions based on the collective wisdom of the community, which desired to have the charism of the community represented in the choice of icon subjects. We were looking for examples of holiness not only in the distant past but also closer to our times. We wanted to find individuals who were icons of values we hold dear and seek to share. We looked for individuals who advanced the development and renewal of liturgy, others who dedicated themselves to helping the disadvantaged in our times, leaders who believed in ecumenism. We wanted women and married persons to be included. We crafted a concept of sanctity born of a belief in inclusivity and not restricted to those individuals already recognized officially.

However, by selecting some individuals for portrayal who were outside the usual boundaries of traditional Orthodox consciousness, critical voices were raised against us from within Orthodox circles and even within our church administration. At this point we felt we had to stand firm behind the decisions the community had made. But we also wanted to do so in a positive way. Needless to say, correspondence and meetings ensued, which, as the saying goes, included “frank exchanges of views.” In the midst of that dialogue, I gave a Sunday reflection in April 2002 attempting to summarize our position. [Click here Sanctity article] Finally we reached a point where during a visit to New Skete by Metropolitan Herman the issue was laid to rest when he stated that even though he might have preferred a different decision on the choice of images for our walls, he did not have any intention of requiring that the community’s decision be overturned."

A few comments:

1. The person who painted the "icons" was NOT "an iconographer from Jordanville". I am told he had a brief association with the Jordanville monastery iconography school.  Following the painting of the heterodox images at New Skete, the news began circulating that the painter was "an iconographer from Jordanville". This caused immense consternation and embarrassment among the Jordanville monastics, including the iconographers.

2. It doesn't matter at all what the "philosophy" was behind the choice of subjects for these murals. It also is completely irrelevant that the New Skete monastics were originally Franciscan Eastern Catholics. Once they were received into the Orthodox Church, they were obliged to "cast the old man aside". This includes the renunciation of all teachings, beliefs and practices not compatible with Orthodoxy, including any liturgical veneration of non-Orthodox saints (they liturgically commemorate Sts Francis of Assisi and Clare of Assisi), and the painting of "iconographic" imagery of non-Orthodox people within their churches.

Does the Church allow Holy Communion to be given to people who have not been baptized Orthodox? If not, why not? It is the same principle which does not allow the portrayal of people not of an Orthodox baptism (or martyrdom, if we count the holy martyrs of earlier centuries, whose baptism was by their own blood as they confessed the faith) in our churches.

Sure, non-Orthodox people are very welcome to visit our churches, be it for liturgy, weddings, baptisms, or for any other service. They are not, however, permitted to take communion. It is not "economia" at all to allow these images to be painted on the walls. This is attempting to conform the Church and her saints to our own image, our own thoughts, our own feelings, our own "philosophies". Should we not be instead trying to conform ourselves to the image of God?

Dorothy Day, Pope Paul VI and Mother Theresa may have lived "good and pious lives" and can be a source of inspiration, but, the fact remains, they were not Orthodox. Halo or no halo, these images simply should not be there. It was a grave mistake on the part of the Metropolitan of the time to have allowed such portrayals on the walls of this church. The murals at New Skete are little different to the syncretist rubbish of Robert Lentz and his proteges, or the "Dancing Saints" abomination at St Gregory's Episcopal, and even worse than these, as they disgrace the walls of a church of an Orthodox jurisdiction.

Moreover, the portrayals of the non-Orthodox figures in the New Skete church are in the same form and size as the other figures who are Orthodox saints. An observer could easily be led to believe that Dorothy Day, Michael Ramsey, et al, are considered to be in good standing with the Orthodox Church, even perhaps that the Church is considering their glorification as saints. This is the very great danger of the presence of these images, that people are allowed to develop a distorted view of what Orthodoxy is and stands for. Let us not forget that there are many aspects of Roman Catholic, Anglican, etc doctrines and dogmas which are contrary and inimical with those of Orthodoxy. In the light of all this, how on earth could the presence of these figures be justified?

A bishop's job is to "rightly divide the word of thy truth". As Orthodox Christians, real love for Christ and our Church is in purity of faith in addition to acts of love for all those around us regardless of religious conviction. If Metropolitan Herman truly "loved" them, he would have corrected them out of his love for them and the faith. It's his job. It is a disgrace that he chose to not take the proper path on this matter.

Like in any aspect of Orthodoxy, we must get certain things right. Icons are a potent and essential visual expression of the teachings and theology of the Orthodox Church, they are mirrors of the Truth. An iconographer has no less a responsibility to get it right, to reflect God's truths in his work, than does a priest when serving, or a hymnographer when composing hymns or canons.


I disagree with about everything you are saying here and I have not read it all. I have to go to bed. I will be gone the 13th-20th without internet access and on the remaining weekdays I cannot respond in a manner your post deserves (that being with proper humility and reflection).

Item 1 is gossip, so quit it.

Item 2, Saint Isaac the Syrian is a non-Eastern Orthodox saint. The same excuses applied to him can be applied elsewhere.

Item 2, continued. We do commune non-Eastern Orthodox Christians. We leave this to the judgement of our bishops.

Item 2, continued. It is the Orthodox (monastics and laity included) who ultimately determine who our saints are. If we pray to them to intercede for us based on their past life, God will take notice. Your opinion ultimately matters little.

Item 2, continued. I do not know who Dorothy Day is, but if she had a profound influence on the monks and nuns, she should be venerated. The remainder of this passage is egregious. The introduction of Robert Lentz and dancing saints is bearing false witness. I hate this and and spit on your incautious words because of this.

Item 2 continued. We have enough icons to tell us that size does not matter. The only place where this notion appear is dating sites.

Item 2, continued. What do Anglicans have to do with New Skete. List the difference between us and Roman Catholics vs us and the Church of the East.

Item 2, continued. Blaming Metropolitan Herman (and the subsequent hierarchs of the OCA) should be cause for reflection. My perspective is that the Roman Church is a child that has lost its way. A wise parent must lead the child back into the fold. To leave your child in the wilderness to die, is a sin. Positive reinforcement must also come into play.

Item 2, continued. Who up there did not reflect God's Truth? I am curious as to how far you will go with this.


Now me: I think JS Bach should be a saint and he is Lutheran. I have been working on the rules for Iconophony, trying to be as strict as you are. It does not appear that I will get done before the Great Council and it is unlikely it will get on the agenda at this late date any way. But a justification of organs is coming. At least some people might learn about Orthodoxy through the Mass in B moll. I did make one post about this in the picture thread.
"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Tallitot

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1916 on: September 09, 2014, 04:16:24 AM »

As does St. Toad:



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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1917 on: September 09, 2014, 05:30:50 AM »
And for full disclosure, I first heard of New Skete when I was investigating how to house train my Beagle puppy in the mid 1990s (generally difficult). My responses are also sentimental.

Sentimentality is perhaps the worst reason for the justification of the painting of images in the nave of a church under an Orthodox jurisdiction which openly and clearly defy the established liturgical, doctrinal, and patristic traditions of the Church. I make no apologies for saying this.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1918 on: September 09, 2014, 09:31:59 AM »
I wonder if removing the icons, especially if they were painted directly onto the wall, would cost too much, or cause too much damage to the walls. Just a thought.

Black spray paint can't be that expensive.

Aww, c'mon. You know they're not going to just put a chunk of black spray paint up there. Nobody wants to go into a church or monastery and see big black rectangles or what have you. It looks weird.

 :P
Don't be silly.
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Offline Opus118

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1919 on: September 09, 2014, 10:17:51 AM »
And for full disclosure, I first heard of New Skete when I was investigating how to house train my Beagle puppy in the mid 1990s (generally difficult). My responses are also sentimental.

Sentimentality is perhaps the worst reason for the justification of the painting of images in the nave of a church under an Orthodox jurisdiction which openly and clearly defy the established liturgical, doctrinal, and patristic traditions of the Church. I make no apologies for saying this.

The fact that I responded to this particular topic was due to sentiment. Prior to this statement of mine, what did I write that was not informational with sources cited? What was biased? I need an education.

After I wrote this statement and posted it, I saw your statement.

I do not object to your opinion nor question your authority in this area. What I did object to is what you actually wrote which was over the top. My loss of sleep was due to my sentimentality and sensitivity.

You should probably take comfort in the fact that 10-20 years from now, the population in the monastery will not have Roman Catholic roots and the monks may paint beards on Dorothy Day and Mother Theresa and give them a new name. They could have a naming raffle and raise a lot of money this way. I also hope they switch to beagles, German shepherds always kind of scared me.

"Mi tío es enfermo, pero la carretera es verde!" - old Chilean saying

Offline Keble

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1920 on: September 09, 2014, 04:17:53 PM »
Dorothy Day, Pope Paul VI and Mother Theresa may have lived "good and pious lives" and can be a source of inspiration, but, the fact remains, they were not Orthodox. Halo or no halo, these images simply should not be there. It was a grave mistake on the part of the Metropolitan of the time to have allowed such portrayals on the walls of this church. The murals at New Skete are little different to the syncretist rubbish of Robert Lentz and his proteges, or the "Dancing Saints" abomination at St Gregory's Episcopal, and even worse than these, as they disgrace the walls of a church of an Orthodox jurisdiction.

Regardless of the propriety of the images from a strict iconographic viewpoint (and considering the number of places I can find iconography of the Russian royal "martyrs", I have lots of reservations about strictness), comparing these images with those of Lentz and those at St. Gregory of Nyssa is exaggeration to the point of trashing the argument.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1921 on: September 09, 2014, 04:37:27 PM »

You should probably take comfort in the fact that 10-20 years from now, the population in the monastery will not have Roman Catholic roots and the monks may paint beards on Dorothy Day and Mother Theresa and give them a new name. They could have a naming raffle and raise a lot of money this way. I also hope they switch to beagles, German shepherds always kind of scared me.



We can only hope and pray.  ;)
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline turtlemom

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1922 on: September 10, 2014, 10:44:44 AM »
Pasadi wins (not resized for your viewing displeasure):

This is an orthodox icon of aborted babies and they are depicted being thrown into Hell:


The idea is that even without sins is so hard to make it to Heaven without BAPTISM. Neither unborn children don't make it that did not live one day.Anyhow the sin of abortion is erased through confession.

ACTUALLY - this icon does NOT depict babies being thrown into hell! The full explanation of this Icon is here:
http://www.orthodoxchristian.info/pages/abortion3.html

I don't know who pasadi97 is, but I wonder at his/her interpretation. Obviously didn't go to the webpage that describes the Icon.

"In contrast to the repentant mother who yearns for mercy, above and to the right of her, is a series of women, who purposely and intently present their infants for slaughter for various worldly reasons; uncontrolled sensuality, hard-heartedness, superficiality and indifference. The children they carry are a nuisance and a bother, affecting their selfish and hedonistic way of life. The children are offered to a queen. She is given the title, "the new Herod", who was responsible for the slaughter of thousands of infants at the time of the birth of Christ. This evil queen is Abortion. At her feet lay the dismembered bodies of countless innocents.

"Above in Heaven, we see the Mother of God (Theotokos), the Ever-Virgin Mary, the Perfect Mother, who is seen nursing the Infant Christ. To Her left is our Father among the Saints, Saint Stylianos the protector and patron saint of children. The Mother of God, the Saints and all the Heavenly bodies grieve as they look down and see the holocaust below. The Angels weep at this indescribable calamity below.

"Behind the evil queen can be seen her servant, the abortionist, murdering another child. Behind the abortionist is the master of the evil queen, the beast, the evil one, who gleefully watches as the mothers offer their children for slaughter, in the process losing their own souls to the beast."

Nope, no babies being thrown into hell here!
 
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Offline therovingmethodist

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1923 on: September 13, 2014, 08:15:22 PM »
Saw this on Facebook today. I admire things about Codreanu, but I would not call him a saint.

« Last Edit: September 13, 2014, 08:16:32 PM by therovingmethodist »
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Offline Luka

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1924 on: September 14, 2014, 11:03:00 AM »
The whole thing with icons at New Skete Monastery reminds me this:

It's in Monastery of the Transfiguration at the Meteora. Anyone can explain how this came to be?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 11:03:31 AM by Luka »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1925 on: September 15, 2014, 10:04:57 AM »
^ ID these men, please.

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1926 on: September 15, 2014, 10:25:30 AM »
^ ID these men, please.

From left to right:

Homer the poet, Thucydides the historian, Aristotle the philosopher, and Plato the philosopher. All the inscriptions are prefixed with the title "O Ellin" (The Hellene).

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline therovingmethodist

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1927 on: September 15, 2014, 10:59:27 AM »


From left to right:

Homer the poet, Thucydides the historian, Aristotle the philosopher, and Plato the philosopher. All the inscriptions are prefixed with the title "O Ellin" (The Hellene).



Ugh.
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1928 on: September 21, 2014, 11:54:58 PM »
That's one nice mustache.



"THE HOLY SPIRIT, MY FRIEND AND COMPANION." I don't think friends are usually that close.


Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1929 on: September 22, 2014, 12:11:47 AM »


http://www.tiikoni.com/tis/view/?id=91a4c62 (image will be deleted after 28 days)

It's not the childish artistic execution and the fact that it's not painted, but made with marker pens. It's the cheesy slogan in the orb the angel is holding, where normally it would contain either the Slavonic abbreviation for holy, or the Greek initials of Christ, the Righteous Judge.

Ugh.  :P :P
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 12:13:24 AM by LBK »
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Offline Avdima

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1930 on: September 22, 2014, 01:02:30 AM »

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1931 on: September 22, 2014, 01:16:34 AM »
There's a whole slew of this sort of nonsense here:

http://www.vagallery.com/peter-murphy.html
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Offline Nephi

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1932 on: September 22, 2014, 01:21:50 AM »
There's a whole slew of this sort of nonsense here:

http://www.vagallery.com/peter-murphy.html

"These images are not intended to be regarded as icons in the true liturgical sense of the word, but neither are they simplistic or ironic post modern comments on the current conflation in the media of the words ‘icon’ and ‘celebrity’. These images are painted in the light of my personal faith and the Orthodox Church’s belief that we each bear within us the true image of God; we are each made in his image and likeness, no matter how far we stray, no matter how tarnished our halo, or tattered our wings."

A bit weird.

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1933 on: September 22, 2014, 01:25:30 AM »
There's a whole slew of this sort of nonsense here:

http://www.vagallery.com/peter-murphy.html

"These images are not intended to be regarded as icons in the true liturgical sense of the word, but neither are they simplistic or ironic post modern comments on the current conflation in the media of the words ‘icon’ and ‘celebrity’. These images are painted in the light of my personal faith and the Orthodox Church’s belief that we each bear within us the true image of God; we are each made in his image and likeness, no matter how far we stray, no matter how tarnished our halo, or tattered our wings."

A bit weird.


You're being too kind, Nephi.  ;)

I saw that statement as well. Rarely have I read anything so ridiculous and selfish.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1934 on: September 22, 2014, 03:22:18 PM »
"THE HOLY SPIRIT, MY FRIEND AND COMPANION." I don't think friends are usually that close.



I wish I had such a friend.  I wouldn't even care if she wasn't the Holy Spirit.  :P
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 03:22:35 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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