Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 470570 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,458
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1710 on: July 05, 2014, 06:53:20 AM »



Ewwwww did you have to?

Haven't even had coffee yet
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,007
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1711 on: July 05, 2014, 06:55:34 AM »
I'm doing a double shift, so yeah, I had to.  My brain is mushy at this point. ;D  Coffee can't help.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1712 on: July 05, 2014, 07:02:04 AM »
Why do these people do this? If they want to have icons, why don't they do them right? Do they think they're improving on the traditional style? Can they not tell the difference?


Good job. LBK will approve of you

Oh good, I wouldn't want to incur her wrath.  ;D

You are indeed doing well, Grasshopper. I only vent my iconophile wrath on those who deserve it.  ;)

Why do people paint such travesties? Honest ignorance, pride, self-expression. The first is often correctable, the others much less so.  :P
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:03:35 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 07:27:36 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,007
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1714 on: July 05, 2014, 09:47:44 AM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1715 on: July 05, 2014, 09:59:13 AM »


San Juan Diego, father of the Mother of God, miraculously conceived in his womb, pointing to her as the Savior and Redeemer. Oy.  :P >:( >:( >:(
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:01:18 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline The Fool

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 216
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1716 on: July 05, 2014, 10:04:43 AM »
San Juan Diego, father of the Mother of God, miraculously conceived in his womb, pointing to her as the Savior and Redeemer. Oy.  :P >:( >:( >:(

:D
"When I hear the words 'Interfaith Dialogue', I reach for my revolver."

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,621
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1717 on: July 05, 2014, 10:11:11 AM »


...the irony being that, knowing the story, I saw nothing odd about the image being there on his mantle. Sometimes a miraculous image of the Theotokos on a cloth is just a miraculous image...

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1718 on: July 05, 2014, 10:13:54 AM »

...the irony being that, knowing the story, I saw nothing odd about the image being there on his mantle. Sometimes a miraculous image of the Theotokos on a cloth is just a miraculous image...


Unfortunately, the language of iconography does not give us such an explanation.  :P
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 19,768
  • Excelsior
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1719 on: July 05, 2014, 10:15:32 AM »
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Diego

LBK, you may have known his story, but just in case, I thought I'd post it.

He is not trying to make himself look pregnant.
My only weakness is, well, never mind

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,621
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1720 on: July 05, 2014, 10:20:00 AM »

...the irony being that, knowing the story, I saw nothing odd about the image being there on his mantle. Sometimes a miraculous image of the Theotokos on a cloth is just a miraculous image...


Unfortunately, the language of iconography does not give us such an explanation.  :P

The other form of this makes more sense:

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1721 on: July 05, 2014, 10:22:23 AM »
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Diego

LBK, you may have known his story, but just in case, I thought I'd post it.

He is not trying to make himself look pregnant.

That may not be his intent, but iconography doesn't see it that way. The Mother of God, surrounded by a mandorla, over his body, uses the same sort of imagery as the iconography of the Mother of God of the Sign, which speaks most clearly of the incarnational prophecy of Isaiah 7:14.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,007
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1722 on: July 05, 2014, 10:22:30 AM »


...the irony being that, knowing the story, I saw nothing odd about the image being there on his mantle. Sometimes a miraculous image of the Theotokos on a cloth is just a miraculous image...


Kowing the story, this image makes more sense:
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1723 on: July 05, 2014, 10:23:46 AM »


...the irony being that, knowing the story, I saw nothing odd about the image being there on his mantle. Sometimes a miraculous image of the Theotokos on a cloth is just a miraculous image...


Kowing the story, this image makes more sense:


This image still fails as an icon. Furthermore, it's from Monastery Icons, whose iconographic standards aren't exactly rigorous.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:26:32 AM by LBK »
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,621
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1724 on: July 05, 2014, 10:30:06 AM »
When it comes to that, Juan Diego is from an Orthodox point of view a d*mned heretic, so there's not that much point to trying to impose Eastern iconographic standards on such an image.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1725 on: July 05, 2014, 10:34:50 AM »
When it comes to that, Juan Diego is from an Orthodox point of view a d*mned heretic, so there's not that much point to trying to impose Eastern iconographic standards on such an image.


It seems that it is too much to ask that those who wish to paint icons, whether they are orthodox or not, are properly taught, not just how to put paint on board, but to have a thorough knowledge of the pictorial language and motifs used in iconography.  :P ::)

Not everything painted in a stylized, non-realistic style is an icon. The forty-odd pages of this thread are testament to this.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,007
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1726 on: July 05, 2014, 10:35:29 AM »


...the irony being that, knowing the story, I saw nothing odd about the image being there on his mantle. Sometimes a miraculous image of the Theotokos on a cloth is just a miraculous image...


Kowing the story, this image makes more sense:


This image still fails as an icon. Furthermore, it's from Monastery Icons, whose iconographic standards aren't exactly rigorous.



Which is why it's still schlock.   ;)
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,617
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1727 on: July 05, 2014, 11:48:34 AM »
Why do these people do this? If they want to have icons, why don't they do them right? Do they think they're improving on the traditional style? Can they not tell the difference?

Pride/ignorance.  They don't want to really bother with the whole learning thing.  Either that or they feel inspired that they are doing something brand new within the tradition.  They're blind, so no.

No matter how you slice it, they can't win. 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,697
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1728 on: July 05, 2014, 12:02:23 PM »
When it comes to that, Juan Diego is from an Orthodox point of view a d*mned heretic, so there's not that much point to trying to impose Eastern iconographic standards on such an image.

The Feast of Our Lady of Gaudalupe has been added to my Metropolia's calendar so there is a point. 
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,697
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1729 on: July 05, 2014, 12:04:09 PM »


...the irony being that, knowing the story, I saw nothing odd about the image being there on his mantle. Sometimes a miraculous image of the Theotokos on a cloth is just a miraculous image...


Kowing the story, this image makes more sense:


This image still fails as an icon. Furthermore, it's from Monastery Icons, whose iconographic standards aren't exactly rigorous.


LBK how could the Image of Guadalupe be properly executed as an icon?
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1730 on: July 05, 2014, 12:25:39 PM »


...the irony being that, knowing the story, I saw nothing odd about the image being there on his mantle. Sometimes a miraculous image of the Theotokos on a cloth is just a miraculous image...


Kowing the story, this image makes more sense:


This image still fails as an icon. Furthermore, it's from Monastery Icons, whose iconographic standards aren't exactly rigorous.


LBK how could the Image of Guadalupe be properly executed as an icon?

It can't.

People who are not Orthodox who paint icons diligently and seriously soon face the line in the sand: where adherence to proper iconographic principles encounters the dilemma of painting something which contravenes them.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,353
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1731 on: July 15, 2014, 12:25:08 PM »
My patron, from the infamous St. Gregory's dancing saints mural:

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Antonis

  • Μέγα το Θαύμα!
  • Section Moderator
  • Archon
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,473
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOA
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1732 on: July 15, 2014, 12:37:15 PM »
Groovy.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

"The human being is earth that suffers."
Letter of Barnabas 6.9

Offline Theophania

  • Ecumenical Dissipation Association *OF* America
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,807
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1733 on: July 15, 2014, 12:37:38 PM »
My patron, from the infamous St. Gregory's dancing saints mural:



What is the meaning of the disembodied hand?
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,353
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1734 on: July 15, 2014, 12:48:08 PM »

What is the meaning of the disembodied hand?
It's a crop from a wider picture.

I assume the hand belongs to St. Moses' dance partner.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Theophania

  • Ecumenical Dissipation Association *OF* America
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,807
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1735 on: July 15, 2014, 12:50:30 PM »

What is the meaning of the disembodied hand?
It's a crop from a wider picture.

I assume the hand belongs to St. Moses' dance partner.

Just weird that you don't see any sleeve on that hand.

I like St. Moses.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Keble

  • All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,621
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1736 on: July 15, 2014, 01:03:12 PM »

What is the meaning of the disembodied hand?
It's a crop from a wider picture.

I assume the hand belongs to St. Moses' dance partner.

Eleanor Roosevelt. It's more like a liturgical conga line.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1737 on: July 15, 2014, 01:04:28 PM »
*insert obligatory mocking of Episcopalians here*
God bless!

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,007
  • Unbreakable! He's alive, dammit! It's a MIRACLE!
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Candle-lighting Cross Kisser
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1738 on: July 16, 2014, 12:33:49 AM »
My patron, from the infamous St. Gregory's dancing saints mural:



Who's the black private monk
That's a prayer machine to all the angels?
(Moses!)
You're damn right
Who is the man
That would risk his neck for his brother man?
(Moses!)
Can ya dig it?
Who's the cat that won't cop out
When there's danger all about
(Moses!)
Right on
 You see this cat Shaft was a bad mother
(Shut your mouth)
But I'm talkin' about Moses
(Then we can dig it)
He's a complicated man
But no one understands him but his Lord
(Saint Moses)

« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 12:34:18 AM by hecma925 »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1739 on: July 16, 2014, 02:41:48 AM »
Is there an historically-explicable reason why there are not liturgical readings from the Revelation, by the way?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1740 on: July 16, 2014, 09:50:19 AM »
Is there an historically-explicable reason why there are not liturgical readings from the Revelation, by the way?
What a strange question to put in the schlock icon thread.

I have heard it was because of the potential for misuse and unhealthy speculation of the book.
God bless!

Offline Theophania

  • Ecumenical Dissipation Association *OF* America
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,807
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1741 on: July 16, 2014, 10:20:01 AM »
Is there an historically-explicable reason why there are not liturgical readings from the Revelation, by the way?

I think it was added to the canon too late to be included.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline Elisha

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,908
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1742 on: July 16, 2014, 11:11:22 AM »
Is there an historically-explicable reason why there are not liturgical readings from the Revelation, by the way?

There indeed ARE liturgical readings from Revelation....just that they are not usually done and are prescribed to be done at the end of a service that is not widely attended.

I think it is listed in the (Slavonic) St. Sabas typicon.  They are to be read I think starting after Pentecost for a period of time (don't remember - maybe Advent?) at the end of Matins.  For those that want to research, I think it is somewhere in the first 60 pages.

Offline Justin Kolodziej

  • High Elder
  • ******
  • Posts: 698
  • Please forgive the embarrasing avatar mishap.
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Metropolis of Atlanta
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1743 on: July 16, 2014, 11:33:13 AM »


San Juan Diego, father mother of the Mother of God, miraculously conceived in his womb, pointing to her as the Savior and Redeemer. Oy.  :P >:( >:( >:(
Fixed...at least to my eyes anyway he looks rather effeminate on top of everything else :(
Quote from: Nun M.
The dread Pantocrator...is also "Christouli mou", (my little Christ), who really listens when you run in to your neighborhood church on the way to work to cry and light a candle because your daughter is in trouble at school. The untouchable and all-holy Mother of God is also "Panayitsa mou", who really will take your part before the court of heaven because, just like your own mom, she’ll always stick up for her children, no matter how badly they’ve behaved.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1744 on: July 16, 2014, 01:28:11 PM »
Is there an historically-explicable reason why there are not liturgical readings from the Revelation, by the way?
What a strange question to put in the schlock icon thread.

I have heard it was because of the potential for misuse and unhealthy speculation of the book.

Icons and liturgy are not unrelated. ;)
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Agabus

  • The user formerly known as Agabus.
  • Section Moderator
  • Protokentarchos
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,353
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1745 on: July 16, 2014, 05:11:28 PM »
Is there an historically-explicable reason why there are not liturgical readings from the Revelation, by the way?
What a strange question to put in the schlock icon thread.

I have heard it was because of the potential for misuse and unhealthy speculation of the book.

Icons and liturgy are not unrelated. ;)
The icons of Revelation are weird, too.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 05:11:56 PM by Agabus »
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Offline Deacon Lance

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,697
  • Faith: Byzantine Catholic
  • Jurisdiction: Archeparchy of Pittsburgh
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1746 on: July 16, 2014, 06:50:08 PM »


San Juan Diego, father of the Mother of God, miraculously conceived in his womb, pointing to her as the Savior and Redeemer. Oy.  :P >:( >:( >:(
That is not what is being represented.  The Mother of God put her image on his cloak.  How should we represent it?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 06:50:44 PM by Deacon Lance »
My cromulent posts embiggen this forum.

Offline LBK

  • No Reporting Allowed
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,483
  • Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1747 on: July 16, 2014, 07:13:15 PM »


San Juan Diego, father of the Mother of God, miraculously conceived in his womb, pointing to her as the Savior and Redeemer. Oy.  :P >:( >:( >:(
That is not what is being represented.  The Mother of God put her image on his cloak.  How should we represent it?

Unfortunately, the above image of San Juan Diego indeed speaks of what I expressed earlier. It's a prime example of someone putting paint to board without a thorough understanding of iconographic language and tradition. As this thread clearly shows, this failing is not restricted to those who are not Orthodox.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • Take comfort in the warmth of the Jacuzzi of Oriental Orthodoxy
  • Section Moderator
  • Protospatharios
  • *****
  • Posts: 32,617
  • Pope Pius XIII, play for us!
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: The Ancienter Faith
  • Jurisdiction: East
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1748 on: July 16, 2014, 08:34:16 PM »


San Juan Diego, father of the Mother of God, miraculously conceived in his womb, pointing to her as the Savior and Redeemer. Oy.  :P >:( >:( >:(
That is not what is being represented.  The Mother of God put her image on his cloak.  How should we represent it?

Unfortunately, the above image of San Juan Diego indeed speaks of what I expressed earlier. It's a prime example of someone putting paint to board without a thorough understanding of iconographic language and tradition. As this thread clearly shows, this failing is not restricted to those who are not Orthodox.

So when I see icons where two angels are holding up the Mandylion, that means the angels got together and conceived Christ? 
The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Actually, Mor's face shineth like the Sun.

Offline Porter ODoran

  • PHILIA NIKA
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 11,080
  • St. John the Beloved, pray for me
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: GOAA
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1749 on: July 16, 2014, 08:39:16 PM »


San Juan Diego, father mother of the Mother of God, miraculously conceived in his womb, pointing to her as the Savior and Redeemer. Oy.  :P >:( >:( >:(
Fixed...at least to my eyes anyway he looks rather effeminate on top of everything else :(

Oh the machismo in this forum. I guess it may be true what they say.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,825
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1750 on: July 16, 2014, 08:48:51 PM »
So when I see icons where two angels are holding up the Mandylion, that means the angels got together and conceived Christ? 

Or these:


Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,458
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1751 on: July 16, 2014, 09:20:05 PM »
no...because those ones are not suspended in 'robe form' over someones tummy...leaving in doubt if its a 'worn item' or a rendering of whats inside the person.


those are clearly being held by their hands....
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,825
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1752 on: July 16, 2014, 09:40:35 PM »
leaving in doubt if its a 'worn item' or a rendering of whats inside the person.

I don't know how anyone could genuinely see the icon of St. Juan Diego as him somehow bearing Our Lady of Guadalupe in his man-womb, especially if they know anything about the apparitions of Our Lady of Guadalupe and what St. Juan is known for.

Offline DeniseDenise

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,458
  • This place holds to nothing....
  • Faith: Does it matter?
  • Jurisdiction: Unverifiable, so irrelevant
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1753 on: July 16, 2014, 09:47:08 PM »
leaving in doubt if its a 'worn item' or a rendering of whats inside the person.

I don't know how anyone could genuinely see the icon of St. Juan Diego as him somehow bearing Our Lady of Guadalupe in his man-womb, especially if they know anything about the apparitions of Our Lady of Guadalupe and what St. Juan is known for.

AHA....but there is the whole entire point.

an icon, is supposed to, via itself, teach us or show us that story.  I shouldn't have to know the story in advance in order to understand what is being conveyed.

Yes, these days we can all read, so we often -do- know....but it was not always thus, and icons taught the story visually.

If I have to know the story in advance to realize its not a man-womb, then the icon fails to teach or instruct.
All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

Offline Nephi

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,825
  • A non-Chalcedonian in Chalcedonian clothing.
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1754 on: July 16, 2014, 09:59:12 PM »
AHA....but there is the whole entire point.

an icon, is supposed to, via itself, teach us or show us that story.  I shouldn't have to know the story in advance in order to understand what is being conveyed.

Yes, these days we can all read, so we often -do- know....but it was not always thus, and icons taught the story visually.

If I have to know the story in advance to realize its not a man-womb, then the icon fails to teach or instruct.

Which touches on an issue with icons in general, as much of the meaning/symbolism is easily lost on people. Take the icon of St. Veronica's veil, for example. If I showed my relatives that, they'd no doubt think that it was her holding Jesus' head (or some guy's head) on a cloth. And what about those stars/Greek letters/colors/etc.? All of those things must be learned, and cannot be understood without already knowing much of it in advance. Likewise, icons of eastern apparitions have the same issue of needing to know the story.

In fact, I amusingly remember when I saw an icon of the Life-Giving Spring one of the first few times I even visited an Orthodox church. I thought it looked like some kind of juicer/blender or something. 8)

« Last Edit: July 16, 2014, 09:59:25 PM by Nephi »