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Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 75891 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rhinosaur
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« Reply #1440 on: February 16, 2014, 06:04:56 PM »

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« Reply #1441 on: February 16, 2014, 06:11:44 PM »



Wow. 
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« Reply #1442 on: February 17, 2014, 11:54:49 PM »



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« Reply #1443 on: February 18, 2014, 12:53:30 AM »

An iconographer friend has kindly sent me a link to the site of an "iconographer" holding classes in Southern California (PM me for the link).

This woman claims to have studied "the Byzantine Greek (Cretan, Cypriot and Macedonian) and Byzantine Russian (Yaroslavl, Moscow and Prosopon) Iconography schools."

There is no such iconographic style as "Byzantine Russian", and the labels she gives on her work which claim to be in this or that style are patently wrong. For instance, those she's labeled as "Cretan School" bear no resemblance at all with it, either in form, coloration, or facial and garment modeling. She also paints in a style she calls "Sentimental", which is rightly named - rarely have I seen more sickly-sweet imagery masquerading as iconography.

Her so-called "Cretan style":



Actual Cretan style:






The colors she uses for skin tones are alarming, the gray and pink making the figures look like corpses. Here's her St Mary Magdalene:



Ah, Mary Magdalene of the Sign! Behold, the Magdalene will conceive, and bear an egg ....  Tongue Tongue

And this Virgin and Child:



Iconographers have long used browns, umbers, and bronze tones for facial and skin tones, but the figure still looks warm and alive.

There seems to be an attempt to replicate the "softer" look of the icons of Simon Ushakov, a 17th century iconographer, but her version of the Mandylion makes Christ look stoned. Or in dire need of some sleep.

Ushakov:



Her version:

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« Reply #1444 on: February 18, 2014, 12:55:59 AM »



If I had ever done drugs this would have sent me into a flashback-fueled tailspin for sure.
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« Reply #1445 on: February 18, 2014, 01:19:05 AM »



There is no such iconographic style as "Byzantine Russian", and the labels she gives on her work which claim to be in this or that style are patently wrong.

I found a book but I have no idea what the original title was

http://www.biblionet.gr/book/103869/Lazarev,_Viktor_N./%CE%A1%CF%8E%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%82_%CE%B2%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%82_%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82

a list of oldest russian icons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_Russian_icons

In my opinion (without knowledge) they have a style to some icons that is very strange for my greek eyes



I can't describe how I feel when I see icons with this style, very unfamiliar and very uncomfortably, I really can't pray in an icon with this style
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« Reply #1446 on: February 18, 2014, 01:28:18 AM »



There is no such iconographic style as "Byzantine Russian", and the labels she gives on her work which claim to be in this or that style are patently wrong.

I found a book but I have no idea what the original title was

http://www.biblionet.gr/book/103869/Lazarev,_Viktor_N./%CE%A1%CF%8E%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%82_%CE%B2%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%82_%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82

a list of oldest russian icons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_Russian_icons

In my opinion (without knowledge) they have a style to some icons that is very strange for my greek eyes



I can't describe how I feel when I see icons with this style, very unfamiliar and very uncomfortably, I really can't pray in an icon with this style

Ersaia, the first iconographers in Russia were Greek, who taught Russians how to paint icons. The Greek character of these early icons is clearly visible, including in the Mandylion you posted.

Before long, Russian iconography began to take on its own character, and distinctive regional styles soon developed, such as Novgorod, Pskov, Moscow, etc. The work of one of the early iconographers to paint in Russia, Theophanes the Greek (Feofan Grek, as the Russians called him) is particularly useful in tracing the transition from Greek style to Russian style. His early work was typically Greek, his later work is identifiably Russian.
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« Reply #1447 on: February 18, 2014, 01:29:32 AM »

The above post by LBK is interesting to see the contrast in styles with commentary on the chosen colors.  If I were looking to buy an icon, those wouldn't have interested me, but I couldn't have explained why. 

What is this style of icon? 

I've heard the comment that the relatively modern iconography is starting to look cartoonish, and wonder if this is it:



Something has always bothered me about the eyes, He doesn't look like a Lightgiver.  Otherwise, it seems correct, but just cheap. 

Is there another thread that deals with primarily style? 
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« Reply #1448 on: February 18, 2014, 01:38:46 AM »

The above post by LBK is interesting to see the contrast in styles with commentary on the chosen colors.  If I were looking to buy an icon, those wouldn't have interested me, but I couldn't have explained why. 

What is this style of icon? 

I've heard the comment that the relatively modern iconography is starting to look cartoonish, and wonder if this is it:



Something has always bothered me about the eyes, He doesn't look like a Lightgiver.  Otherwise, it seems correct, but just cheap. 

Is there another thread that deals with primarily style? 

The icon posted by Velsigne would not look like that in real life. The clue is the color of the gold leaf in the background, which can be difficult to properly photograph. It looks a dull brown color, not golden. I have seen actual prints from this series, and they look quite different, and much better, than this.

This icon is certainly not cartoonish in style, there are others in this thread which are definitely so. give me time, and I'll post some examples.  Smiley The style in the posted icon is close to that used by Photios Kontoglou, who was influenced by mainly the Cretan School.

The expression in Christ's eyes is on a par with many icons - a subtle blend of stern and serious (as the Righteous Judge), and warm and compassionate (as merciful and loving Lord).
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« Reply #1449 on: February 18, 2014, 01:50:28 AM »

The above post by LBK is interesting to see the contrast in styles with commentary on the chosen colors.  If I were looking to buy an icon, those wouldn't have interested me, but I couldn't have explained why. 

What is this style of icon? 

I've heard the comment that the relatively modern iconography is starting to look cartoonish, and wonder if this is it:



Something has always bothered me about the eyes, He doesn't look like a Lightgiver.  Otherwise, it seems correct, but just cheap. 

Is there another thread that deals with primarily style? 

The icon posted by Velsigne would not look like that in real life. The clue is the color of the gold leaf in the background, which can be difficult to properly photograph. It looks a dull brown color, not golden. I have seen actual prints from this series, and they look quite different, and much better, than this.

This icon is certainly not cartoonish in style, there are others in this thread which are definitely so. give me time, and I'll post some examples.  Smiley The style in the posted icon is close to that used by Photios Kontoglou, who was influenced by mainly the Cretan School.

The expression in Christ's eyes is on a par with many icons - a subtle blend of stern and serious (as the Righteous Judge), and warm and compassionate (as merciful and loving Lord).

Yes, it does look better in person.  It was my first icon.  I just randomly grabbed two that matched.  Smiley 

I thought he looked so stern at first, so I got this one for my prayer corner:

The matching Theotokos looks strange to me though, so I didn't get that one:



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« Reply #1450 on: February 18, 2014, 01:51:50 AM »


Ersaia, the first iconographers in Russia were Greek, who taught Russians how to paint icons. The Greek character of these early icons is clearly visible, including in the Mandylion you posted.

Before long, Russian iconography began to take on its own character, and distinctive regional styles soon developed, such as Novgorod, Pskov, Moscow, etc. The work of one of the early iconographers to paint in Russia, Theophanes the Greek (Feofan Grek, as the Russians called him) is particularly useful in tracing the transition from Greek style to Russian style. His early work was typically Greek, his later work is identifiably Russian.

I can't find this moment other icons but it's a style I regognize it from their eyes and beards mostly, I think they are very angry icons
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« Reply #1451 on: February 18, 2014, 01:52:05 AM »



There is no such iconographic style as "Byzantine Russian", and the labels she gives on her work which claim to be in this or that style are patently wrong.

I found a book but I have no idea what the original title was

http://www.biblionet.gr/book/103869/Lazarev,_Viktor_N./%CE%A1%CF%8E%CF%83%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%B5%CF%82_%CE%B2%CF%85%CE%B6%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B9%CE%BD%CE%AD%CF%82_%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BD%CE%B5%CF%82

a list of oldest russian icons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oldest_Russian_icons

In my opinion (without knowledge) they have a style to some icons that is very strange for my greek eyes



I can't describe how I feel when I see icons with this style, very unfamiliar and very uncomfortably, I really can't pray in an icon with this style

I know what you mean Ersaia, sometimes it's hard for me to understand different icons.  What type are you accustomed to?
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« Reply #1452 on: February 18, 2014, 01:57:03 AM »


I know what you mean Ersaia, sometimes it's hard for me to understand different icons.  What type are you accustomed to?

Byzantine Greek
we have macedonian style on the walls of churches mostly and cretan style on wooden icons
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« Reply #1453 on: February 18, 2014, 01:58:06 AM »


Yes, it does look better in person.  It was my first icon.  I just randomly grabbed two that matched.  Smiley  

I thought he looked so stern at first, so I got this one for my prayer corner:

The matching Theotokos looks strange to me though, so I didn't get that one:




Both of these are by Simon Ushakov. His Mother of God of Kykkos (the original is from Cyprus) which you've posted never did much for me, either.
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« Reply #1454 on: February 18, 2014, 02:04:31 AM »

What do you think of the Christ icon by Ushakov? 

This one a young Serbian man spontaneously gifted to me after he related how he had been very ill.  He couldn't walk for a long time.  So he was praying to get better, and his icon began streaming myrrh and he was healed.  He gave the icon to his parish.  As he told me about the miracle, he picked up a copy of it and said, 'This is for you.'   

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« Reply #1455 on: February 18, 2014, 02:11:27 AM »


I know what you mean Ersaia, sometimes it's hard for me to understand different icons.  What type are you accustomed to?

Byzantine Greek
we have macedonian style on the walls of churches mostly and cretan style on wooden icons

I can quite understand someone finding different historic iconographic styles confronting or difficult to accept. It's even more difficult to become accustomed to the non-realistic styles if all you've been surrounded by is naturalistic religious art. Yet, it's possible, with time and knowledge, to change your view. If anyone asked me what I thought of traditional icons 40 or more years ago, I would have said "I prefer the realistic ones". At the time, I just couldn't understand why traditional icons looked the way they did, and found them strange and forbidding. Not long afterwards, I began to change my view, once I made the effort to learn more. And here I am.  Smiley
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« Reply #1456 on: February 18, 2014, 02:21:55 AM »

I can quite understand someone finding different historic iconographic styles confronting or difficult to accept. It's even more difficult to become accustomed to the non-realistic styles if all you've been surrounded by is naturalistic religious art. Yet, it's possible, with time and knowledge, to change your view. If anyone asked me what I thought of traditional icons 40 or more years ago, I would have said "I prefer the realistic ones". At the time, I just couldn't understand why traditional icons looked the way they did, and found them strange and forbidding. Not long afterwards, I began to change my view, once I made the effort to learn more. And here I am.  Smiley

This reminds me of the non-Christians, and even Christians, that simply can't get past the art style of more traditional icons. To some of them, the symbolism etc. is completely foreign and lost on them, and rather find traditional style icons to be primitive or silly/childish, looking either like poorly done art or cartoonish.
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« Reply #1457 on: February 18, 2014, 02:22:28 AM »

Quote
What do you think of the Christ icon by Ushakov?  

It seems rather bland and anodyne. Most Russian styles are "warmer" and less formal than the hieratic Greek styles, but this does not mean they lack the ability to portray Christ as He is: God Almighty and compassionate Lord. The Savior of Zvenigorod, painted as part of a supplicatory series by St Andrei of Radonezh (Andrei Rublyev), is an outstanding example.  Sadly, only three, all badly damaged, panels from this series have survived, the others being of the Archangel Michael and of Apostle Paul, yet their spiritual power is undiminished. Many have tried to copy it, and none come close to capturing the  utter sublimity, subtlety and power of the original.



Here is what an iconographer friend of mine has written about seeing this priceless treasure for himself at the Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow:

No reproduction can capture these qualities, nor could any copy. When you see the original, you are overwhelmed by it. You look at it trying to figure out how the effect has been achieved but in the end you just give up. The important thing is that despite being in a gallery, you can pray in front of it. Thoughtfully, they have put benches in front of it so you can sit and contemplate it. Unlike some icons, or singing, which are beautiful and brilliantly done, you don't admire its aesthetic beauty. Rather, its beauty serves and is subordinate to its spiritual beauty and power to work on the soul.


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« Reply #1458 on: February 18, 2014, 02:24:51 AM »

This one a young Serbian man spontaneously gifted to me after he related how he had been very ill.  He couldn't walk for a long time.  So he was praying to get better, and his icon began streaming myrrh and he was healed.  He gave the icon to his parish.  As he told me about the miracle, he picked up a copy of it and said, 'This is for you.'   



A lovely Odighitria, and a beautiful story behind your copy of it!  Smiley
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« Reply #1459 on: February 18, 2014, 02:35:31 AM »

Quote
What do you think of the Christ icon by Ushakov?  

It seems rather bland and anodyne. Most Russian styles are "warmer" and less formal than the hieratic Greek styles, but this does not mean they lack the ability to portray Christ as He is: God Almighty and compassionate Lord. The Savior of Zvenigorod, painted as part of a supplicatory series by St Andrei of Radonezh (Andrei Rublyev), is an outstanding example.  Sadly, only three, all badly damaged, panels from this series have survived, the others being of the Archangel Michael and of Apostle Paul, yet their spiritual power is undiminished. Many have tried to copy it, and none come close to capturing the  utter sublimity, subtlety and power of the original.



Here is what an iconographer friend of mine has written about seeing this priceless treasure for himself at the Tretyakov Gallery in Moscow:

No reproduction can capture these qualities, nor could any copy. When you see the original, you are overwhelmed by it. You look at it trying to figure out how the effect has been achieved but in the end you just give up. The important thing is that despite being in a gallery, you can pray in front of it. Thoughtfully, they have put benches in front of it so you can sit and contemplate it. Unlike some icons, or singing, which are beautiful and brilliantly done, you don't admire its aesthetic beauty. Rather, its beauty serves and is subordinate to its spiritual beauty and power to work on the soul.




That would be wonderful to see something like that!

I like this one of the Theotokos, and keep it on my desk at work, but have never seen anything but a copy.


I have some photos of an icon that is self restoring.  It was all black, but know an image is slowly coming through. 
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« Reply #1460 on: February 18, 2014, 02:40:54 AM »

This one a young Serbian man spontaneously gifted to me after he related how he had been very ill.  He couldn't walk for a long time.  So he was praying to get better, and his icon began streaming myrrh and he was healed.  He gave the icon to his parish.  As he told me about the miracle, he picked up a copy of it and said, 'This is for you.'   



A lovely Odighitria, and a beautiful story behind your copy of it!  Smiley

Yes, I learned something profound from that young man with such fervent faith.  I am very grateful to have met him Smiley
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« Reply #1461 on: February 18, 2014, 02:52:28 AM »


That would be wonderful to see something like that!


Indeed. I am rather jealous of my friend.  Grin

Quote
I like this one of the Theotokos, and keep it on my desk at work, but have never seen anything but a copy.

Ah, the incomparable Vladimirskaya, painted in the early 12th century in Constantinople, a gift for a grand prince of Kievan Rus' . It is another historic icon which many have tried to copy, and all unsuccessfully. I have only seen perhaps one or two which are acceptable, but still a far cry from the original.

A notable detail is the fact that, though the icon has suffered much damage, including by fire, over the better part of a thousand years, some original elements remain: the faces of the Virgin and Child, both His hands, her left hand, and part of His foot.
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« Reply #1462 on: February 18, 2014, 10:15:18 AM »

Why make "icons" that cannot be venerated?
Wouldn't you be able to venerate Christ?  Although it is more of a "teaching" icon, Christ is there.
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« Reply #1463 on: February 18, 2014, 10:24:29 AM »



He is in my icon corner.


As is she.
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« Reply #1464 on: February 18, 2014, 07:58:35 PM »




Why in the universe would someone create images of an alien Christ and Satan? Even if we were to meet sentient aliens, that sort of "icon art" would not fly. Aliens might make their version of Christ closer to how their species looks, but this is outside of any conceivable norm. The first "icon" with the eyes, the weird halo, and everything in it, looks especially New Age-y.
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« Reply #1465 on: February 18, 2014, 08:26:57 PM »

That was... That was...

My eyes hurt.
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« Reply #1466 on: February 18, 2014, 08:32:03 PM »

we really need to separate out the non-schlock discussion in this thread to a new thread.....so that people won't think those are examples of schlock too.....


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« Reply #1467 on: February 24, 2014, 06:27:09 AM »

I have no idea if this icon belongs here or not



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« Reply #1468 on: February 24, 2014, 06:38:19 AM »

I have no idea if this icon belongs here or not




This was painted by a Byzantine Catholic woman, for the specific purpose of it being used as part of an anti-abortion campaign. It was discussed in another thread, this being the first post in the discussion of that image:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,19963.msg865631.html#msg865631



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« Reply #1469 on: February 24, 2014, 06:42:58 AM »

^LBK, do you mind helping me identify the name of this painting and the artist who drew it? It is of St. George, and I have seen it used by Christians of a variety of different confessions, especially in the Middle East:

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« Reply #1470 on: February 24, 2014, 07:01:29 AM »

^LBK, do you mind helping me identify the name of this painting and the artist who drew it? It is of St. George, and I have seen it used by Christians of a variety of different confessions, especially in the Middle East:



No idea. It looks like a generic western European version, possibly Italian or Spanish, and very likely the subject of countless RC holy cards.
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« Reply #1471 on: February 24, 2014, 07:09:23 AM »

thanks LBK
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« Reply #1472 on: February 24, 2014, 07:11:00 AM »

thanks LBK

Happy to help.  Smiley
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« Reply #1473 on: February 24, 2014, 10:05:04 AM »



If I had ever done drugs this would have sent me into a flashback-fueled tailspin for sure.

Quoting the lines of the character beat author "Terrance Mann" from the movie "Field of Dreams":
" Back to the '60s! There's no place for you here in the future."
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« Reply #1474 on: February 24, 2014, 01:41:56 PM »

^LBK, do you mind helping me identify the name of this painting and the artist who drew it? It is of St. George, and I have seen it used by Christians of a variety of different confessions, especially in the Middle East:



No idea. It looks like a generic western European version, possibly Italian or Spanish, and very likely the subject of countless RC holy cards.

That is the predominant, if not the only, depiction of St George I've ever seen in Indian churches: not "St George on the horse" vs "St George standing alone", but that very image. 
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« Reply #1475 on: February 24, 2014, 02:24:37 PM »

^LBK, do you mind helping me identify the name of this painting and the artist who drew it? It is of St. George, and I have seen it used by Christians of a variety of different confessions, especially in the Middle East:



No idea. It looks like a generic western European version, possibly Italian or Spanish, and very likely the subject of countless RC holy cards.

I used to carry that exact card around for quite a bit.
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« Reply #1476 on: February 24, 2014, 07:20:43 PM »

Thanks LBK.
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« Reply #1477 on: March 06, 2014, 12:07:46 AM »

The blurb accompanying this image:

Metal icon of St. Nicholas by the Bulgarian artist Georgi 'Chapa' Chapkanov.

The premises of the Falklands Legislative Council at Gilbert House in Stanley, Falkland Islands. As a patron saint of fishermen the Saint is uniquely depicted holding a fish, fishing being the mainstay of Falklands economy. The icon's inscription reads: To the Falklands Nation


No problem with commissioning a piece of art with the theme of maritime activity, with a nod to a holy patron and protector of mariners and fishermen. But, please, do not call this schlock an icon!


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« Reply #1478 on: March 10, 2014, 05:59:38 PM »

This was painted by the rector of St Gregory's Episcopal in San Francisco, (in)famous for the "Dancing Saints" schlockorama:

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« Reply #1479 on: March 10, 2014, 06:15:55 PM »

That's very flattering. 
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« Reply #1480 on: March 13, 2014, 09:49:42 AM »

That's very flattering. 
What, no holy tears?
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« Reply #1481 on: March 13, 2014, 12:37:00 PM »



Yes? No?
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« Reply #1482 on: March 13, 2014, 02:20:29 PM »

This was painted by the rector of St Gregory's Episcopal in San Francisco, (in)famous for the "Dancing Saints" schlockorama:



Blech.  But by now, nothing that "St. Gregory's" Episcopal in SF does surprises me anymore.
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« Reply #1483 on: March 13, 2014, 04:27:37 PM »

This was painted by the rector of St Gregory's Episcopal in San Francisco, (in)famous for the "Dancing Saints" schlockorama:



Hahahahahaha... genius.
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« Reply #1484 on: March 13, 2014, 04:33:42 PM »

same thing as...



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