OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 21, 2014, 06:15:14 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 »   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 75041 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ersaia
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 284



« Reply #1395 on: February 04, 2014, 04:36:07 PM »

just remember these icons from a church



lenin cut the beard of saint Luke












As I know they change many icons because of the scandal
Logged
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #1396 on: February 04, 2014, 05:42:04 PM »

just remember these icons from a churchlenin cut the beard of saint Luke



Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:42:45 PM by orthonorm » Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
kelly
UNSUBSCRIBED from the world
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,592


laughter is the best medicine


« Reply #1397 on: February 04, 2014, 05:44:03 PM »

At least he doesn't have a halo in this one.
Logged

kelly and I spend all our free time collecting pictures of Russian monarchs.  Its a thing we do.
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1398 on: February 04, 2014, 05:58:14 PM »

Ersaia, where are these "icons" from? Do you have a link to the church or to a collection of pictures of them? I'm very interested.
Logged
Ersaia
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 284



« Reply #1399 on: February 04, 2014, 06:02:03 PM »

Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  Grin

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;
Logged
Ersaia
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 284



« Reply #1400 on: February 04, 2014, 06:19:28 PM »

Ersaia, where are these "icons" from? Do you have a link to the church or to a collection of pictures of them? I'm very interested.

Axion Esti Church, Axioupoli - Kilkis

http://kilkisorama.gr/%CE%B5%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AE-%CF%80%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%AE%CE%B3%CE%B7%CF%83%CE%B7-360%C2%B0/401-%CE%B9%CE%B5%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%82-%CE%BD%CE%B1%CF%8C%CF%82-%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B3%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82-%CE%AC%CE%BE%CE%B9%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AF-%CE%B1%CE%BE%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82

this is the answer of iconographer after the accusation if you want to translate it from Greek
http://www.romfea.gr/diafora-ekklisiastika/3282-4879

I can see a book with the icons of Axion Esti church but I am not sure if it is with Stalin and Lenin icons or without them

http://www.ebooks.gr/gr/%CE%BF%CE%B9-%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%B9%CF%87%CE%BF%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%B9%CE%B5%CF%82-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85-%CE%B9%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%85-%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%BF%CF%85-%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%B1%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1%CF%82-%CE%B1%CE%BE%CE%B9%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B9-%CE%B1%CE%BE%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%B5%CF%89%CF%82-301362.html
Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1401 on: February 04, 2014, 06:25:13 PM »

Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  Grin

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;

St Luke of Simferopol' (1877 -1961) was a master surgeon and professor of surgery during the Soviet era. He was also a monk, and later a bishop of Simferopol' and the Crimea. He made no secret of his Orthodox faith to the Soviet authorities, and was imprisoned and punished for this. However, his skills as a surgeon and physician were seen as so valuable that he was allowed to continue to practice. He angered hospital authorities by insisting a holy icon be hung in any operating theater he worked in, and he would pray before every surgical session he was to undertake.

Even Joseph Stalin personally ordered him to operate on this or that government official, which St Luke did, as was proper for a true Christian.

In light of this, I'm puzzled by the painting of Lenin cutting off St Luke's beard.
Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1402 on: February 04, 2014, 06:25:47 PM »


Thank you very much, Ersaia!  Kiss
Logged
Antonis
"The Most Honourable The Morquess of Something"
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Metropolis of San Francisco Outside of San Francisco
Posts: 1,637


You must try this Balkan blend, Barsanuphius.


« Reply #1403 on: February 04, 2014, 07:10:07 PM »

Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  Grin

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;

St Luke of Simferopol' (1877 -1961) was a master surgeon and professor of surgery during the Soviet era. He was also a monk, and later a bishop of Simferopol' and the Crimea. He made no secret of his Orthodox faith to the Soviet authorities, and was imprisoned and punished for this. However, his skills as a surgeon and physician were seen as so valuable that he was allowed to continue to practice. He angered hospital authorities by insisting a holy icon be hung in any operating theater he worked in, and he would pray before every surgical session he was to undertake.

Even Joseph Stalin personally ordered him to operate on this or that government official, which St Luke did, as was proper for a true Christian.

In light of this, I'm puzzled by the painting of Lenin cutting off St Luke's beard.
Could it be symbolic? Lenin as the symbol for communism and St Luke's beard being symbolic of his faith/priestly status?
Logged

As I dissipate, Christ precipitates.

"And if your right hand causes you to sin, tattoo it."
orthonorm
Warned
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Sola Gratia
Jurisdiction: Outside
Posts: 16,523



« Reply #1404 on: February 04, 2014, 07:37:34 PM »

Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  Grin

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;

St Luke of Simferopol' (1877 -1961) was a master surgeon and professor of surgery during the Soviet era. He was also a monk, and later a bishop of Simferopol' and the Crimea. He made no secret of his Orthodox faith to the Soviet authorities, and was imprisoned and punished for this. However, his skills as a surgeon and physician were seen as so valuable that he was allowed to continue to practice. He angered hospital authorities by insisting a holy icon be hung in any operating theater he worked in, and he would pray before every surgical session he was to undertake.

Even Joseph Stalin personally ordered him to operate on this or that government official, which St Luke did, as was proper for a true Christian.

In light of this, I'm puzzled by the painting of Lenin cutting off St Luke's beard.
Could it be symbolic? Lenin as the symbol for communism and St Luke's beard being symbolic of his faith/priestly status?

For once, I am with LBK, this makes little to no sense.

If this where a triumphant celebration of communism over the Church why depict the Saint as well a saint? Perhaps it is a bit of a "response to just criticism" as it were.
Logged

Ignorance is not a lack, but a passion.
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1405 on: February 04, 2014, 09:48:24 PM »

Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  Grin

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;

St Luke of Simferopol' (1877 -1961) was a master surgeon and professor of surgery during the Soviet era. He was also a monk, and later a bishop of Simferopol' and the Crimea. He made no secret of his Orthodox faith to the Soviet authorities, and was imprisoned and punished for this. However, his skills as a surgeon and physician were seen as so valuable that he was allowed to continue to practice. He angered hospital authorities by insisting a holy icon be hung in any operating theater he worked in, and he would pray before every surgical session he was to undertake.

Even Joseph Stalin personally ordered him to operate on this or that government official, which St Luke did, as was proper for a true Christian.

In light of this, I'm puzzled by the painting of Lenin cutting off St Luke's beard.
Could it be symbolic? Lenin as the symbol for communism and St Luke's beard being symbolic of his faith/priestly status?

For once, I am with LBK, this makes little to no sense.

If this where a triumphant celebration of communism over the Church why depict the Saint as well a saint? Perhaps it is a bit of a "response to just criticism" as it were.

If the painting were an attempt to show the power of the Soviet regime over Orthodoxy, history itself shows the dismal failure of that effort. Moreover, the painting of such an image in an Orthodox church without reference to a proper life icon of St Luke, defies propriety. The images posted by Ersaia clearly show that this was an exercise in personal artistic expression, and not the work of an iconographer in obedience to the teachings and canons of the Church.
Logged
hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,318


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #1406 on: February 04, 2014, 11:20:53 PM »

St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.
Logged

hecma925
Non-clairvoyant
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 6,318


Pray for me, a sinner.


WWW
« Reply #1407 on: February 04, 2014, 11:23:46 PM »


It depicts a scene where Stalin visited her, but he rejected the advice she gave him.

Interesting, I did not know that he came to her.
Logged

LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1408 on: February 04, 2014, 11:26:58 PM »

St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.


Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon. Apart from the error of Lenin being present in the painting (a generic soldier or komissar would have sufficed, as is the case of many an icon of any of the New Martyrs), the scale of the painting and it being in a position of some prominence speaks of the "triumph" of Bolshevik atheism over Orthodoxy. It is, quite simply, a false and subversive image.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #1409 on: February 08, 2014, 12:31:21 PM »

How is this image different from icons of Christ being crucified, saints being beheaded, etc.?

The victory is that you can paint such an icon at all.  If the bad guys had won, there would be no icons or frescoes or churches to paint them on...


St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.


Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon. Apart from the error of Lenin being present in the painting (a generic soldier or komissar would have sufficed, as is the case of many an icon of any of the New Martyrs), the scale of the painting and it being in a position of some prominence speaks of the "triumph" of Bolshevik atheism over Orthodoxy. It is, quite simply, a false and subversive image.
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
DeniseDenise
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,354


« Reply #1410 on: February 08, 2014, 01:15:55 PM »

I saw this somewhere this morning and even if its been posted, i am not going through 31 pages to verify....

ugggg..just uggg...



Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,761


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #1411 on: February 08, 2014, 01:24:10 PM »





(At least they could've had the decency to use the NT Trinity icon...)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 01:25:35 PM by Mor Ephrem » Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1412 on: February 08, 2014, 07:32:06 PM »

How is this image different from icons of Christ being crucified, saints being beheaded, etc.?

The victory is that you can paint such an icon at all.  If the bad guys had won, there would be no icons or frescoes or churches to paint them on...


St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.


Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon. Apart from the error of Lenin being present in the painting (a generic soldier or komissar would have sufficed, as is the case of many an icon of any of the New Martyrs), the scale of the painting and it being in a position of some prominence speaks of the "triumph" of Bolshevik atheism over Orthodoxy. It is, quite simply, a false and subversive image.

Father, you seem to have missed this part of my post:

Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon.

There would have been nothing wrong with the church having a life icon of St Luke, in which one of the surrounding panels depicting scenes from his life showed him having his beard removed as part of his imprisonment. The two errors in the image in the church in question are that this scene is large, in a prominent position, and not part of the wider narrative of a life icon or narrative mural; and the inclusion of Lenin as the barber, an egregious detail.

The earthly punishments of saints who are martyrs or confessors are indeed shown in icons of their lives, but there are proper ways of doing so. This painting is not one of them.
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #1413 on: February 10, 2014, 01:04:54 AM »

In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:




How is this image different from icons of Christ being crucified, saints being beheaded, etc.?

The victory is that you can paint such an icon at all.  If the bad guys had won, there would be no icons or frescoes or churches to paint them on...


St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.


Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon. Apart from the error of Lenin being present in the painting (a generic soldier or komissar would have sufficed, as is the case of many an icon of any of the New Martyrs), the scale of the painting and it being in a position of some prominence speaks of the "triumph" of Bolshevik atheism over Orthodoxy. It is, quite simply, a false and subversive image.

Father, you seem to have missed this part of my post:

Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon.

There would have been nothing wrong with the church having a life icon of St Luke, in which one of the surrounding panels depicting scenes from his life showed him having his beard removed as part of his imprisonment. The two errors in the image in the church in question are that this scene is large, in a prominent position, and not part of the wider narrative of a life icon or narrative mural; and the inclusion of Lenin as the barber, an egregious detail.

The earthly punishments of saints who are martyrs or confessors are indeed shown in icons of their lives, but there are proper ways of doing so. This painting is not one of them.

Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Hawkeye
Onomatodoxicologist
High Elder
******
Online Online

Faith: I don't mean to brag but...
Jurisdiction: I've been in an Antiochian church.
Posts: 626


My grandfather's uncle, Boris Half-Ear


« Reply #1414 on: February 10, 2014, 01:13:17 AM »

I assure you, Father, she's not a fan of that one either.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 01:13:26 AM by Hawkeye » Logged

DeniseDenise
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,354


« Reply #1415 on: February 10, 2014, 01:51:13 AM »

Just because one bad thing exists....does not provide justification for a different bad thing.

Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1416 on: February 10, 2014, 01:58:03 AM »

In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:





I do hope you're not suggesting the above image is acceptable for veneration, Father.  Shocked
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 01:58:44 AM by LBK » Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #1417 on: February 10, 2014, 10:17:23 AM »

Did I say that?

In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:





I do hope you're not suggesting the above image is acceptable for veneration, Father.  Shocked
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1418 on: February 10, 2014, 10:19:16 AM »

Did I say that?

In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:





I do hope you're not suggesting the above image is acceptable for veneration, Father.  Shocked

Just wanted you to clarify, that's all.  Smiley

I was concerned when you referred to the Montenegro mural as "not controversial".
Logged
FatherGiryus
You are being watched.
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Patriarchate of Antioch - NA
Posts: 2,122



« Reply #1419 on: February 10, 2014, 10:29:56 AM »

On a sliding scale, the 'beard-cutting' fresco is far less troubling than the one I am presenting.  If I was to represent the Church as a boat, it would be a landing craft filled with Spirit-armed saints ready to climb ashore...   Wink

My point is that I have seen lots of frescoes with such images: I have seen sultans and donors and even a 'Holy Spirit Dove' holding the chain for a chandelier.  On the grand scale of things, I have more appreciation for the 'message' of this fresco than of others, like the Love Boat...


Did I say that?

In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:





I do hope you're not suggesting the above image is acceptable for veneration, Father.  Shocked

Just wanted you to clarify, that's all.  Smiley

I was concerned when you referred to the Montenegro mural as "not controversial".
Logged

http://orthodoxyandrecovery.blogspot.com
The most dangerous thing about riding a tiger is the dismount.  - Indian proverb
Ersaia
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 284



« Reply #1420 on: February 13, 2014, 01:05:52 AM »

http://kissmybabushka.com/?p=4171



Elder Partition (computer disc partition)
Logged
DeniseDenise
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,354


« Reply #1421 on: February 13, 2014, 01:14:48 AM »

Oh dear.

And it's a Linux partition too!


Ok. That blue lady is creepy.
Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1422 on: February 13, 2014, 02:16:50 AM »

Oh dear.

And it's a Linux partition too!


Ok. That blue lady is creepy.

The blue lady represents the members of Pussy Riot, as confirmed by the abbreviated inscription.  Tongue Tongue Angry
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:17:07 AM by LBK » Logged
DeniseDenise
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,354


« Reply #1423 on: February 13, 2014, 02:18:26 AM »

Oh dear.

And it's a Linux partition too!


Ok. That blue lady is creepy.

The blue lady represents the members of Pussy Riot, as confirmed by the abbreviated inscription.  Tongue Tongue Angry

I didn't even try to read it...on the assumption i probably wouldn't want to know.....Wink
Logged
Eastern Mind
Hi! I'm Olaf and I like warm hugs!
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Hopeful
Jurisdiction: Greece
Posts: 713



« Reply #1424 on: February 13, 2014, 10:55:24 AM »

The blue lady looks like Space Ghost
Logged

"ALL THE GODS OF THE HINDUS ARE DEMONS HAHAHAHAHA!!"
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 30,094


Goodbye for now, my friend


« Reply #1425 on: February 13, 2014, 11:09:34 AM »



Reminded me of something Dumb Donald (Fat Albert) would have worn...

Logged

Paradosis ≠ Asteriktos ≠ Justin
Ersaia
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 284



« Reply #1426 on: February 15, 2014, 03:10:23 AM »



the famous russian prostitute of WW2 Athens
She was slept with Germans all the time but she fed all the area and save many people
Logged
paedenfield
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 10


St. Ephrem, the Harp of the Holy Spirit


« Reply #1427 on: February 16, 2014, 07:49:25 AM »

I don't know if this one has been posted before.  With its New Age syncretism, I don't doubt that it qualifies not just as schlock, but as downright heretical.  I personally think, however, that it is very well-done heretical schlock ...  Smiley ... if it left out the blatant goddess images and concentrated instead only on Christian images of Mary, it might still be schlock, but at least it wouldn't necessarily be heretical.



I'm not sure who the artist is.  This image is one of the many derivatives of the Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn icon in Vilnius, which doesn't exactly follow Byzantine iconographical rules in the first place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_the_Gate_of_Dawn

One can argue that the original (scroll down in the Wiki article) is not really an icon at all, but a Western-style religious painting.  However, there doesn't seem to be any doubt that there are Orthodox who venerate icons that are based on this painting.   The image below is more representative of what you might find on some of the Orthodox gift websites:





Logged

If you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect.  But if you are not able, then do what you can. - Didache 6:2
biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,022


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #1428 on: February 16, 2014, 01:37:24 PM »

The blue lady looks like Space Ghost

Yeah she does!
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,853



« Reply #1429 on: February 16, 2014, 02:39:12 PM »

What about this one? Yea or nay?

Logged

biro
Excelsior
Site Supporter
Warned
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox
Posts: 14,022


Και κλήρονομον δείξον με, ζωής της αιωνίου

fleem
WWW
« Reply #1430 on: February 16, 2014, 02:41:43 PM »

We just saw this one in church today, because it's the Sunday of the Prodigal Son. I think it's okay. It has multiple scenes, but it is simply just telling the story in different parts.
Logged

Charlie Rose: If you could change one thing about the world, what would it be?

Fran Lebowitz: Everything. There is not one thing with which I am satisfied.

http://spcasuncoast.org/
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,853



« Reply #1431 on: February 16, 2014, 02:47:50 PM »

I was curious of the aspect that it is not about an actual event but about a parable. IIRC people here have objected anti-abortion icons due to them being cheap progapanda instead of actual event or an actual Saint.
Logged

Hawkeye
Onomatodoxicologist
High Elder
******
Online Online

Faith: I don't mean to brag but...
Jurisdiction: I've been in an Antiochian church.
Posts: 626


My grandfather's uncle, Boris Half-Ear


« Reply #1432 on: February 16, 2014, 05:05:19 PM »

I'd imagine the Lord's parables get a free pass in that regard.

The icon above certainly doesn't bother me.
Logged

Ersaia
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek
Posts: 284



« Reply #1433 on: February 16, 2014, 05:11:36 PM »

What about this one? Yea or nay?



icons was painted bible for the illiterate people usually
in my church I have an deaf-mute man, iconography in church walls is all he has
Logged
paedenfield
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 10


St. Ephrem, the Harp of the Holy Spirit


« Reply #1434 on: February 16, 2014, 05:22:25 PM »

I saw this same icon at church this morning as well and didn't think very much about it at the time.  The more I look at it, though, the more uneasy I am with it.  It brings up too many questions and confuses me more than anything.  Icons should be simple so as not to confuse simple-minded people like myself!  A few thoughts/questions:

1)  Why is Our Lord Jesus Christ portrayed here as the father of the prodigal son?  It seems to me that the father is meant to represent God the Father.  I know that God the Father should not be portrayed in an icon, and I know that we are reunited with the Father only through His Son Jesus, but at the same time I feel like this imagery undercuts and muddles the symbolic meaning of the parable.  It's like the artist is trying to interject a theological point into the parable that isn't inherently there.

2)  Who are the three angelic figures standing on what appears to be the God's heavenly throne chariot?  Are they just angels witnessing this reunion or are they intended to represent the Holy Trinity (a la Andrei Rublev)?  If they are just angels, what are they doing on God's heavenly throne chariot?  And if they represent the Holy Trinity, is it "okay" (canonical, standard, etc.) to use angels in this way (Rublev notwithstanding)?  At any rate, I find the angelic figures distracting because they do not appear in the parable itself in any capacity.

3)  Is this depiction an icon, or simply a pictorial of the parable?  I would have said that it is not really an icon except that Christ (and maybe even the Holy Trinity) is in the depiction.  Does that make it an icon?  Even if Christ and the Holy Trinity don't really belong there?  If it is considered an icon, is this an icon that one would venerate?  It seems to me that we call many things "icons," but they should not necessarily all be treated with the same reverence.

4)  In response to Alpo's original query -- as far as I am concerned, NAY!  Forgive my ignorance and confusion.

What about this one? Yea or nay?


Logged

If you are able to bear the whole yoke of the Lord, you will be perfect.  But if you are not able, then do what you can. - Didache 6:2
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1435 on: February 16, 2014, 05:24:14 PM »

What about this one? Yea or nay?



This one's a yay.  Smiley

Almost all versions of the Prodigal Son parable show the father in the story as a generic old man. How is it possible to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul? But this one shows Christ embracing the wayward son - a better portrayal, as it expresses the meaning of the parable: of sinners repenting and returning to God. And how can God be portrayed in icons? As Christ, of course. So such an image can indeed be venerated, and is not simply didactic.
Logged
LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1436 on: February 16, 2014, 05:29:14 PM »

I was curious of the aspect that it is not about an actual event but about a parable. IIRC people here have objected anti-abortion icons due to them being cheap progapanda instead of actual event or an actual Saint.

The objection to anti-abortion "icons" has been made clear - iconography or icon-style art being used for serving sociopolitical causes.

As for parables, not all can be properly depicted as icons suitable for veneration. The Publican and Pharisee is one which can't. The version of the Prodigal Son posted above is suitable for veneration, for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post.
Logged
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Online Online

Posts: 17,761


The Pope Emeritus reading OCNet


WWW
« Reply #1437 on: February 16, 2014, 05:32:12 PM »

Why make "icons" that cannot be venerated?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


Mor Ephrem > Justin Kissel
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 6,853



« Reply #1438 on: February 16, 2014, 05:35:14 PM »

What about this one? Yea or nay?



This one's a yay.  Smiley

Almost all versions of the Prodigal Son parable show the father in the story as a generic old man. How is it possible to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul? But this one shows Christ embracing the wayward son - a better portrayal, as it expresses the meaning of the parable: of sinners repenting and returning to God. And how can God be portrayed in icons? As Christ, of course. So such an image can indeed be venerated, and is not simply didactic.

So in your opinion icons don't need to depict actual events that really happened? An idea of a prodigal son is enough?

How is this different from, say, Sacred Heart icons?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 05:35:47 PM by Alpo » Logged

LBK
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 11,143


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us!


« Reply #1439 on: February 16, 2014, 05:45:41 PM »

What about this one? Yea or nay?



This one's a yay.  Smiley

Almost all versions of the Prodigal Son parable show the father in the story as a generic old man. How is it possible to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul? But this one shows Christ embracing the wayward son - a better portrayal, as it expresses the meaning of the parable: of sinners repenting and returning to God. And how can God be portrayed in icons? As Christ, of course. So such an image can indeed be venerated, and is not simply didactic.

So in your opinion icons don't need to depict actual events that really happened? An idea of a prodigal son is enough?

How is this different from, say, Sacred Heart icons?

The Prodigal Son parable is observed liturgically on one of the pre-Lenten Sundays. A look at the hymns of Vespers and Matins makes the purpose and meaning of its commemoration very clear.

Some selections:

Jesus my God, now accept me too as I repent like the Profligate Son. All my life I have lived in carelessness and provoked You to anger.

Show in me all Your goodness, O God. As my Benefactor, overlook the multitude of my offenses at Your Mother’s godly prayers.

Wholly beside myself, I attached myself in madness to the inventors of passions. But accept me, O Christ, like the Profligate.

Open wide your arms, O Christ, and in compassion receive me as I return from a far country of sin and passions.

I have been filled with every shame and dare not look towards the height of heaven, for I have irrationally bowed down to sin. But now as I return I cry aloud in compunction, ‘I have sinned against You. Receive me, King of all’.

I dare not look up at the height of heaven, O Christ, for I have angered You beyond measure. But knowing Your compassion, merciful Lord, I cry, ‘I have sinned. Be merciful. Save me’.


OTOH, the Sacred Heart imagery has never been part of Orthodox devotion or liturgical commemoration.
Logged
Tags: schlock Blasphemy icons mechagodzilla 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 »   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.165 seconds with 72 queries.