Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 131979 times)

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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1395 on: February 04, 2014, 04:36:07 PM »
just remember these icons from a church



lenin cut the beard of saint Luke












As I know they change many icons because of the scandal

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1396 on: February 04, 2014, 05:42:04 PM »
just remember these icons from a churchlenin cut the beard of saint Luke



Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)
« Last Edit: February 04, 2014, 05:42:45 PM by orthonorm »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1397 on: February 04, 2014, 05:44:03 PM »
At least he doesn't have a halo in this one.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1398 on: February 04, 2014, 05:58:14 PM »
Ersaia, where are these "icons" from? Do you have a link to the church or to a collection of pictures of them? I'm very interested.
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1399 on: February 04, 2014, 06:02:03 PM »
Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  ;D

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;


Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1401 on: February 04, 2014, 06:25:13 PM »
Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  ;D

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;

St Luke of Simferopol' (1877 -1961) was a master surgeon and professor of surgery during the Soviet era. He was also a monk, and later a bishop of Simferopol' and the Crimea. He made no secret of his Orthodox faith to the Soviet authorities, and was imprisoned and punished for this. However, his skills as a surgeon and physician were seen as so valuable that he was allowed to continue to practice. He angered hospital authorities by insisting a holy icon be hung in any operating theater he worked in, and he would pray before every surgical session he was to undertake.

Even Joseph Stalin personally ordered him to operate on this or that government official, which St Luke did, as was proper for a true Christian.

In light of this, I'm puzzled by the painting of Lenin cutting off St Luke's beard.
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Offline Antonis

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1403 on: February 04, 2014, 07:10:07 PM »
Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  ;D

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;

St Luke of Simferopol' (1877 -1961) was a master surgeon and professor of surgery during the Soviet era. He was also a monk, and later a bishop of Simferopol' and the Crimea. He made no secret of his Orthodox faith to the Soviet authorities, and was imprisoned and punished for this. However, his skills as a surgeon and physician were seen as so valuable that he was allowed to continue to practice. He angered hospital authorities by insisting a holy icon be hung in any operating theater he worked in, and he would pray before every surgical session he was to undertake.

Even Joseph Stalin personally ordered him to operate on this or that government official, which St Luke did, as was proper for a true Christian.

In light of this, I'm puzzled by the painting of Lenin cutting off St Luke's beard.
Could it be symbolic? Lenin as the symbol for communism and St Luke's beard being symbolic of his faith/priestly status?
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1404 on: February 04, 2014, 07:37:34 PM »
Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  ;D

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;

St Luke of Simferopol' (1877 -1961) was a master surgeon and professor of surgery during the Soviet era. He was also a monk, and later a bishop of Simferopol' and the Crimea. He made no secret of his Orthodox faith to the Soviet authorities, and was imprisoned and punished for this. However, his skills as a surgeon and physician were seen as so valuable that he was allowed to continue to practice. He angered hospital authorities by insisting a holy icon be hung in any operating theater he worked in, and he would pray before every surgical session he was to undertake.

Even Joseph Stalin personally ordered him to operate on this or that government official, which St Luke did, as was proper for a true Christian.

In light of this, I'm puzzled by the painting of Lenin cutting off St Luke's beard.
Could it be symbolic? Lenin as the symbol for communism and St Luke's beard being symbolic of his faith/priestly status?

For once, I am with LBK, this makes little to no sense.

If this where a triumphant celebration of communism over the Church why depict the Saint as well a saint? Perhaps it is a bit of a "response to just criticism" as it were.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1405 on: February 04, 2014, 09:48:24 PM »
Does this have some meaning I am not getting? A cultural reference or even reference in the Church? (The importance of someone cutting St. Luke's beard?)

ok wrong St Luke  ;D

 I found some info but we need help from russians for the connection

Archbishop Luka (Luke, Russian: Архиепи́скоп Лука́, born Valentin Felixovich Voyno-Yasenetsky, Russian: Валенти́н Фе́ликсович Во́йно-Ясене́цкий;

St Luke of Simferopol' (1877 -1961) was a master surgeon and professor of surgery during the Soviet era. He was also a monk, and later a bishop of Simferopol' and the Crimea. He made no secret of his Orthodox faith to the Soviet authorities, and was imprisoned and punished for this. However, his skills as a surgeon and physician were seen as so valuable that he was allowed to continue to practice. He angered hospital authorities by insisting a holy icon be hung in any operating theater he worked in, and he would pray before every surgical session he was to undertake.

Even Joseph Stalin personally ordered him to operate on this or that government official, which St Luke did, as was proper for a true Christian.

In light of this, I'm puzzled by the painting of Lenin cutting off St Luke's beard.
Could it be symbolic? Lenin as the symbol for communism and St Luke's beard being symbolic of his faith/priestly status?

For once, I am with LBK, this makes little to no sense.

If this where a triumphant celebration of communism over the Church why depict the Saint as well a saint? Perhaps it is a bit of a "response to just criticism" as it were.

If the painting were an attempt to show the power of the Soviet regime over Orthodoxy, history itself shows the dismal failure of that effort. Moreover, the painting of such an image in an Orthodox church without reference to a proper life icon of St Luke, defies propriety. The images posted by Ersaia clearly show that this was an exercise in personal artistic expression, and not the work of an iconographer in obedience to the teachings and canons of the Church.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1406 on: February 04, 2014, 11:20:53 PM »
St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1407 on: February 04, 2014, 11:23:46 PM »

It depicts a scene where Stalin visited her, but he rejected the advice she gave him.

Interesting, I did not know that he came to her.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1408 on: February 04, 2014, 11:26:58 PM »
St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.


Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon. Apart from the error of Lenin being present in the painting (a generic soldier or komissar would have sufficed, as is the case of many an icon of any of the New Martyrs), the scale of the painting and it being in a position of some prominence speaks of the "triumph" of Bolshevik atheism over Orthodoxy. It is, quite simply, a false and subversive image.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1409 on: February 08, 2014, 12:31:21 PM »
How is this image different from icons of Christ being crucified, saints being beheaded, etc.?

The victory is that you can paint such an icon at all.  If the bad guys had won, there would be no icons or frescoes or churches to paint them on...


St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.


Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon. Apart from the error of Lenin being present in the painting (a generic soldier or komissar would have sufficed, as is the case of many an icon of any of the New Martyrs), the scale of the painting and it being in a position of some prominence speaks of the "triumph" of Bolshevik atheism over Orthodoxy. It is, quite simply, a false and subversive image.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1410 on: February 08, 2014, 01:15:55 PM »
I saw this somewhere this morning and even if its been posted, i am not going through 31 pages to verify....

ugggg..just uggg...




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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1411 on: February 08, 2014, 01:24:10 PM »




(At least they could've had the decency to use the NT Trinity icon...)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2014, 01:25:35 PM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1412 on: February 08, 2014, 07:32:06 PM »
How is this image different from icons of Christ being crucified, saints being beheaded, etc.?

The victory is that you can paint such an icon at all.  If the bad guys had won, there would be no icons or frescoes or churches to paint them on...


St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.


Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon. Apart from the error of Lenin being present in the painting (a generic soldier or komissar would have sufficed, as is the case of many an icon of any of the New Martyrs), the scale of the painting and it being in a position of some prominence speaks of the "triumph" of Bolshevik atheism over Orthodoxy. It is, quite simply, a false and subversive image.

Father, you seem to have missed this part of my post:

Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon.

There would have been nothing wrong with the church having a life icon of St Luke, in which one of the surrounding panels depicting scenes from his life showed him having his beard removed as part of his imprisonment. The two errors in the image in the church in question are that this scene is large, in a prominent position, and not part of the wider narrative of a life icon or narrative mural; and the inclusion of Lenin as the barber, an egregious detail.

The earthly punishments of saints who are martyrs or confessors are indeed shown in icons of their lives, but there are proper ways of doing so. This painting is not one of them.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1413 on: February 10, 2014, 01:04:54 AM »
In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:




How is this image different from icons of Christ being crucified, saints being beheaded, etc.?

The victory is that you can paint such an icon at all.  If the bad guys had won, there would be no icons or frescoes or churches to paint them on...


St. Luke's beard was shaved off in prison, but not literally shaved by Lenin himself.  So, yes, symbolic.


Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon. Apart from the error of Lenin being present in the painting (a generic soldier or komissar would have sufficed, as is the case of many an icon of any of the New Martyrs), the scale of the painting and it being in a position of some prominence speaks of the "triumph" of Bolshevik atheism over Orthodoxy. It is, quite simply, a false and subversive image.

Father, you seem to have missed this part of my post:

Yet the painting in the church is on its own, and not part of a life icon.

There would have been nothing wrong with the church having a life icon of St Luke, in which one of the surrounding panels depicting scenes from his life showed him having his beard removed as part of his imprisonment. The two errors in the image in the church in question are that this scene is large, in a prominent position, and not part of the wider narrative of a life icon or narrative mural; and the inclusion of Lenin as the barber, an egregious detail.

The earthly punishments of saints who are martyrs or confessors are indeed shown in icons of their lives, but there are proper ways of doing so. This painting is not one of them.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1414 on: February 10, 2014, 01:13:17 AM »
I assure you, Father, she's not a fan of that one either.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 01:13:26 AM by Hawkeye »
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Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1415 on: February 10, 2014, 01:51:13 AM »
Just because one bad thing exists....does not provide justification for a different bad thing.


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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1416 on: February 10, 2014, 01:58:03 AM »
In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:





I do hope you're not suggesting the above image is acceptable for veneration, Father.  :o
« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 01:58:44 AM by LBK »
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1417 on: February 10, 2014, 10:17:23 AM »
Did I say that?

In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:





I do hope you're not suggesting the above image is acceptable for veneration, Father.  :o
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1418 on: February 10, 2014, 10:19:16 AM »
Did I say that?

In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:





I do hope you're not suggesting the above image is acceptable for veneration, Father.  :o

Just wanted you to clarify, that's all.  :)

I was concerned when you referred to the Montenegro mural as "not controversial".
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1419 on: February 10, 2014, 10:29:56 AM »
On a sliding scale, the 'beard-cutting' fresco is far less troubling than the one I am presenting.  If I was to represent the Church as a boat, it would be a landing craft filled with Spirit-armed saints ready to climb ashore...   ;)

My point is that I have seen lots of frescoes with such images: I have seen sultans and donors and even a 'Holy Spirit Dove' holding the chain for a chandelier.  On the grand scale of things, I have more appreciation for the 'message' of this fresco than of others, like the Love Boat...


Did I say that?

In an age with icons like this, I don't find the fresco to be all that controversial:





I do hope you're not suggesting the above image is acceptable for veneration, Father.  :o

Just wanted you to clarify, that's all.  :)

I was concerned when you referred to the Montenegro mural as "not controversial".
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1420 on: February 13, 2014, 01:05:52 AM »
http://kissmybabushka.com/?p=4171



Elder Partition (computer disc partition)

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1421 on: February 13, 2014, 01:14:48 AM »
Oh dear.

And it's a Linux partition too!


Ok. That blue lady is creepy.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1422 on: February 13, 2014, 02:16:50 AM »
Oh dear.

And it's a Linux partition too!


Ok. That blue lady is creepy.

The blue lady represents the members of Pussy Riot, as confirmed by the abbreviated inscription.  :P :P >:(
« Last Edit: February 13, 2014, 02:17:07 AM by LBK »
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1423 on: February 13, 2014, 02:18:26 AM »
Oh dear.

And it's a Linux partition too!


Ok. That blue lady is creepy.

The blue lady represents the members of Pussy Riot, as confirmed by the abbreviated inscription.  :P :P >:(

I didn't even try to read it...on the assumption i probably wouldn't want to know.....;)

Offline Eastern Mind

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1424 on: February 13, 2014, 10:55:24 AM »
The blue lady looks like Space Ghost
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1425 on: February 13, 2014, 11:09:34 AM »


Reminded me of something Dumb Donald (Fat Albert) would have worn...


Offline Ersaia

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1426 on: February 15, 2014, 03:10:23 AM »


the famous russian prostitute of WW2 Athens
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1427 on: February 16, 2014, 07:49:25 AM »
I don't know if this one has been posted before.  With its New Age syncretism, I don't doubt that it qualifies not just as schlock, but as downright heretical.  I personally think, however, that it is very well-done heretical schlock ...  :) ... if it left out the blatant goddess images and concentrated instead only on Christian images of Mary, it might still be schlock, but at least it wouldn't necessarily be heretical.



I'm not sure who the artist is.  This image is one of the many derivatives of the Our Lady of the Gate of Dawn icon in Vilnius, which doesn't exactly follow Byzantine iconographical rules in the first place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_the_Gate_of_Dawn

One can argue that the original (scroll down in the Wiki article) is not really an icon at all, but a Western-style religious painting.  However, there doesn't seem to be any doubt that there are Orthodox who venerate icons that are based on this painting.   The image below is more representative of what you might find on some of the Orthodox gift websites:





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Offline biro

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1428 on: February 16, 2014, 01:37:24 PM »
The blue lady looks like Space Ghost

Yeah she does!
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1429 on: February 16, 2014, 02:39:12 PM »
What about this one? Yea or nay?


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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1430 on: February 16, 2014, 02:41:43 PM »
We just saw this one in church today, because it's the Sunday of the Prodigal Son. I think it's okay. It has multiple scenes, but it is simply just telling the story in different parts.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1431 on: February 16, 2014, 02:47:50 PM »
I was curious of the aspect that it is not about an actual event but about a parable. IIRC people here have objected anti-abortion icons due to them being cheap progapanda instead of actual event or an actual Saint.

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1432 on: February 16, 2014, 05:05:19 PM »
I'd imagine the Lord's parables get a free pass in that regard.

The icon above certainly doesn't bother me.
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Offline Ersaia

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1433 on: February 16, 2014, 05:11:36 PM »
What about this one? Yea or nay?



icons was painted bible for the illiterate people usually
in my church I have an deaf-mute man, iconography in church walls is all he has

Offline paedenfield

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1434 on: February 16, 2014, 05:22:25 PM »
I saw this same icon at church this morning as well and didn't think very much about it at the time.  The more I look at it, though, the more uneasy I am with it.  It brings up too many questions and confuses me more than anything.  Icons should be simple so as not to confuse simple-minded people like myself!  A few thoughts/questions:

1)  Why is Our Lord Jesus Christ portrayed here as the father of the prodigal son?  It seems to me that the father is meant to represent God the Father.  I know that God the Father should not be portrayed in an icon, and I know that we are reunited with the Father only through His Son Jesus, but at the same time I feel like this imagery undercuts and muddles the symbolic meaning of the parable.  It's like the artist is trying to interject a theological point into the parable that isn't inherently there.

2)  Who are the three angelic figures standing on what appears to be the God's heavenly throne chariot?  Are they just angels witnessing this reunion or are they intended to represent the Holy Trinity (a la Andrei Rublev)?  If they are just angels, what are they doing on God's heavenly throne chariot?  And if they represent the Holy Trinity, is it "okay" (canonical, standard, etc.) to use angels in this way (Rublev notwithstanding)?  At any rate, I find the angelic figures distracting because they do not appear in the parable itself in any capacity.

3)  Is this depiction an icon, or simply a pictorial of the parable?  I would have said that it is not really an icon except that Christ (and maybe even the Holy Trinity) is in the depiction.  Does that make it an icon?  Even if Christ and the Holy Trinity don't really belong there?  If it is considered an icon, is this an icon that one would venerate?  It seems to me that we call many things "icons," but they should not necessarily all be treated with the same reverence.

4)  In response to Alpo's original query -- as far as I am concerned, NAY!  Forgive my ignorance and confusion.

What about this one? Yea or nay?


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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1435 on: February 16, 2014, 05:24:14 PM »
What about this one? Yea or nay?



This one's a yay.  :)

Almost all versions of the Prodigal Son parable show the father in the story as a generic old man. How is it possible to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul? But this one shows Christ embracing the wayward son - a better portrayal, as it expresses the meaning of the parable: of sinners repenting and returning to God. And how can God be portrayed in icons? As Christ, of course. So such an image can indeed be venerated, and is not simply didactic.
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Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1436 on: February 16, 2014, 05:29:14 PM »
I was curious of the aspect that it is not about an actual event but about a parable. IIRC people here have objected anti-abortion icons due to them being cheap progapanda instead of actual event or an actual Saint.

The objection to anti-abortion "icons" has been made clear - iconography or icon-style art being used for serving sociopolitical causes.

As for parables, not all can be properly depicted as icons suitable for veneration. The Publican and Pharisee is one which can't. The version of the Prodigal Son posted above is suitable for veneration, for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post.
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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1437 on: February 16, 2014, 05:32:12 PM »
Why make "icons" that cannot be venerated?
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Offline Alpo

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1438 on: February 16, 2014, 05:35:14 PM »
What about this one? Yea or nay?



This one's a yay.  :)

Almost all versions of the Prodigal Son parable show the father in the story as a generic old man. How is it possible to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul? But this one shows Christ embracing the wayward son - a better portrayal, as it expresses the meaning of the parable: of sinners repenting and returning to God. And how can God be portrayed in icons? As Christ, of course. So such an image can indeed be venerated, and is not simply didactic.

So in your opinion icons don't need to depict actual events that really happened? An idea of a prodigal son is enough?

How is this different from, say, Sacred Heart icons?
« Last Edit: February 16, 2014, 05:35:47 PM by Alpo »

Offline LBK

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Re: Schlock Icons
« Reply #1439 on: February 16, 2014, 05:45:41 PM »
What about this one? Yea or nay?



This one's a yay.  :)

Almost all versions of the Prodigal Son parable show the father in the story as a generic old man. How is it possible to venerate people who are characters in a teaching lesson, but were never real people, flesh and blood and soul? But this one shows Christ embracing the wayward son - a better portrayal, as it expresses the meaning of the parable: of sinners repenting and returning to God. And how can God be portrayed in icons? As Christ, of course. So such an image can indeed be venerated, and is not simply didactic.

So in your opinion icons don't need to depict actual events that really happened? An idea of a prodigal son is enough?

How is this different from, say, Sacred Heart icons?

The Prodigal Son parable is observed liturgically on one of the pre-Lenten Sundays. A look at the hymns of Vespers and Matins makes the purpose and meaning of its commemoration very clear.

Some selections:

Jesus my God, now accept me too as I repent like the Profligate Son. All my life I have lived in carelessness and provoked You to anger.

Show in me all Your goodness, O God. As my Benefactor, overlook the multitude of my offenses at Your Mother’s godly prayers.

Wholly beside myself, I attached myself in madness to the inventors of passions. But accept me, O Christ, like the Profligate.

Open wide your arms, O Christ, and in compassion receive me as I return from a far country of sin and passions.

I have been filled with every shame and dare not look towards the height of heaven, for I have irrationally bowed down to sin. But now as I return I cry aloud in compunction, ‘I have sinned against You. Receive me, King of all’.

I dare not look up at the height of heaven, O Christ, for I have angered You beyond measure. But knowing Your compassion, merciful Lord, I cry, ‘I have sinned. Be merciful. Save me’.


OTOH, the Sacred Heart imagery has never been part of Orthodox devotion or liturgical commemoration.
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