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Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 65559 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1260 on: December 06, 2013, 12:51:11 AM »

What I know is that icons are to depict what is in harmony with what the whole Church teaches. I also know that visions are to be regarded with great caution, irrespective of whether they are seen by saints, monastics or laymen. It is one thing to show in an icon the Mother of God handing back St Nicholas of Myra's omophorion which had been stripped from him at the Council of Nicea, and quite another to show her as minister of the Eucharist.

Sure, but since when has a woman ever bestowed an omophorion on a bishop?  Especially when it is the reversal of a deposition carried out by an ecumenical council? 
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« Reply #1261 on: December 06, 2013, 01:05:39 AM »

What I know is that icons are to depict what is in harmony with what the whole Church teaches. I also know that visions are to be regarded with great caution, irrespective of whether they are seen by saints, monastics or laymen. It is one thing to show in an icon the Mother of God handing back St Nicholas of Myra's omophorion which had been stripped from him at the Council of Nicea, and quite another to show her as minister of the Eucharist.

Sure, but since when has a woman ever bestowed an omophorion on a bishop?  Especially when it is the reversal of a deposition carried out by an ecumenical council? 

She did not bestow St Nicholas with the omophorion as happens at episcopal consecration. She was returning what was rightfully his, due to his staunch defense of the true faith against Arius' heresy. In the same vision, Christ was seen blessing the saint. Both these gestures are commemorated in the iconography of St Nicholas, and, in the EO church at least, Thursday is liturgically dedicated to St Nicholas, as well as the Apostles, in recognition of the magnitude of the importance of his defense of the Orthodox faith.



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« Reply #1262 on: December 06, 2013, 01:23:02 AM »

She did not bestow St Nicholas with the omophorion as happens at episcopal consecration. She was returning what was rightfully his, due to his staunch defense of the true faith against Arius' heresy. In the same vision, Christ was seen blessing the saint. Both these gestures are commemorated in the iconography of St Nicholas...

OK, but still, she's reversing a deposition carried out by an ecumenical council.  If that's not an episcopal prerogative, what is? 

Anyway, if we're supposed to regard visions with great caution as a general principle, why allow this one but not the one at Mar Saba Monastery?  Because it was popularised?  If anything, the idea that the Theotokos can reverse the decisions of bishops is more problematic to me simply because it is associated with the memory of St Nicholas, who is more widely known than some random monk in the history of a famous Palestinian monastery. 

Quote
...and, in the EO church at least, Thursday is liturgically dedicated to St Nicholas, as well as the Apostles, in recognition of the magnitude of the importance of his defense of the Orthodox faith.

It is the same with us: Thursdays commemorate in a special way the Apostles and Hierarchs (St Nicholas is not singled out, but I presume the traditions are linked).
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« Reply #1263 on: December 06, 2013, 01:45:27 AM »

She did not bestow St Nicholas with the omophorion as happens at episcopal consecration. She was returning what was rightfully his, due to his staunch defense of the true faith against Arius' heresy. In the same vision, Christ was seen blessing the saint. Both these gestures are commemorated in the iconography of St Nicholas...

OK, but still, she's reversing a deposition carried out by an ecumenical council.  If that's not an episcopal prerogative, what is? 

Anyway, if we're supposed to regard visions with great caution as a general principle, why allow this one but not the one at Mar Saba Monastery?  Because it was popularised?  If anything, the idea that the Theotokos can reverse the decisions of bishops is more problematic to me simply because it is associated with the memory of St Nicholas, who is more widely known than some random monk in the history of a famous Palestinian monastery. 


My understanding of the point of the story is that the bishops erred in stripping St Nicholas of his rank, and were then divinely convinced of the righteousness of his indignation against Arius.
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« Reply #1264 on: December 06, 2013, 02:02:16 AM »

My understanding of the point of the story is that the bishops erred in stripping St Nicholas of his rank, and were then divinely convinced of the righteousness of his indignation against Arius.

In hindsight, we can appreciate that.  But why should the bishops have trusted a vision if, as a general principle, visions and dreams are not to be considered automatically trustworthy?  If some visions can be depicted based on their "good fruit", I don't see why lesser known visions with lesser known "good fruit" should not be depicted.   

In hindsight, I think the iconographic portrayal of a vision of our Lady communing monks, originally revealed to an erring monk, has not led to anyone seriously believing that she is a cleric, or that women can be "extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion", or what have you.  But the vision did lead to at least one man's repentance and the edification of others.

And all of that is beside the point that I could probably develop a theological argument for why it is not inappropriate to depict our Lady distributing Communion, even if it does not necessarily require the affirmation of women's ordination or any similar issues.  It would be a bit of a stretch, but nevertheless a basically sound argument.  I think quite a few "givens" in our tradition probably started out that way.         
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« Reply #1265 on: December 06, 2013, 02:15:32 AM »

Quote
In hindsight, I think the iconographic portrayal of a vision of our Lady communing monks, originally revealed to an erring monk, has not led to anyone seriously believing that she is a cleric, or that women can be "extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion", or what have you.  But the vision did lead to at least one man's repentance and the edification of others.

The fact that this image  is no longer confined to within the walls of the monastery, but has now made its way around the world through the wonders of the internet means that it could indeed not only be used as a platform for the women's ordination lobby, but also promote a distorted view of who and what the Mother of God is. It doesn't take much for one suspect image to be reproduced by many, to the spiritual detriment of even more.

Vigilance is even more imperative in these days of instant global reach.
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« Reply #1266 on: December 06, 2013, 02:35:32 AM »

it could indeed not only be used as a platform for the women's ordination lobby, but also promote a distorted view of who and what the Mother of God is.

Honestly, I think the icons with the Theotokos returning St. Nicholas' omophorion could even serve this purpose for those that work toward such ends - probably just a matter of time.
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« Reply #1267 on: December 06, 2013, 03:35:58 AM »

She is administering the Eucharist, something consistently and unwaveringly the privilege and duty of clergy.

Not really.
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« Reply #1268 on: December 06, 2013, 04:07:08 AM »

Would you finally get that direct links to pictures on pravicon do not work?
You have to refresh the page.

Really if all members were mandated to host images on imgur.com and post here with *img* tags all the better.

No image will be deleted again because of time either, unless imgur shuts down.
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« Reply #1269 on: December 06, 2013, 08:24:16 AM »

Are there any icons depicting saints being given communion by angels?  I think I've read not a few accounts of that happening...
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« Reply #1270 on: December 06, 2013, 10:50:38 AM »

LBK,
What is you opinion on these icons?




These icons are very popular in the Antiochian Orthodox Church , especially in Lebanon where they became a pious folk art among women and nuns to take printed icons and create a beaded or jeweled icon cover to cover the often less than beautiful print beneath. In more modern times the print is often printed on cloth and the beadwork is sewn directly on the cloth making the bead work part of the icon rather than just a cover. Many Orthodox Nuns use this handicraft to help support their convent and pray throughout the process adding their prayers to the blessing of the icon. In many Lebanese homes these icons are the center of the icon corner and held to be great legacies passed from one generation to the next generation.
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« Reply #1271 on: December 07, 2013, 03:23:26 PM »

What about these?



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« Reply #1272 on: December 07, 2013, 03:40:29 PM »

^I can't imagine those actually being schlock, considering all the early famous examples of Christ as the Good Shepherd (e.g. Ravenna, catacombs, statues, etc.). It seems to have historically been more prevalent in the West (even pre-schism), but I may be wrong.
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« Reply #1273 on: December 07, 2013, 07:00:53 PM »

^I can't imagine those actually being schlock, considering all the early famous examples of Christ as the Good Shepherd (e.g. Ravenna, catacombs, statues, etc.). It seems to have historically been more prevalent in the West (even pre-schism), but I may be wrong.

I agree. They don't seem weird to me.
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« Reply #1274 on: December 12, 2013, 12:53:07 PM »

I like this one:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lucy%27s_Day
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« Reply #1275 on: December 12, 2013, 01:21:38 PM »

That icon looks like it was painted by Disney people.
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« Reply #1276 on: December 12, 2013, 01:27:01 PM »

That icon looks like it was painted by Disney people.
For once I actually agree with Michal.
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« Reply #1277 on: December 12, 2013, 01:29:32 PM »

That icon looks like it was painted by Disney people.

Apparently you haven't visited Scandinavia. We actually are that blonde.
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« Reply #1278 on: December 12, 2013, 01:31:55 PM »

Apparently you haven't visited Scandinavia. We actually are that blonde.

But are Sicilians?  Certainly none of the Sicilians I know look like that...  Smiley
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« Reply #1279 on: December 12, 2013, 01:35:16 PM »

That icon looks like it was painted by Disney people.

Apparently you haven't visited Scandinavia. We actually are that blonde.

It's not only hair. Her face, clothes too.
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« Reply #1280 on: December 12, 2013, 01:40:53 PM »

Apparently you haven't visited Scandinavia. We actually are that blonde.

But are Sicilians?  Certainly none of the Sicilians I know look like that...  Smiley

They are tanned by Frankish heresy.
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« Reply #1281 on: December 12, 2013, 02:42:23 PM »

That icon looks like it was painted by Disney people.

Apparently you haven't visited Scandinavia. We actually are that blonde.

It's not only hair. Her face, clothes too.

I think it's the brightness of the colors.  Illustration wise it looks very Greek to me.
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« Reply #1282 on: December 13, 2013, 06:06:47 PM »

What is that? ^

meanwhile... somewhere in Greece

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« Reply #1283 on: December 13, 2013, 06:10:56 PM »

Not an icon proper (it's from the Austrian school in the early 1400s), but definitely wonky.



From a book cover I have.

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« Reply #1284 on: December 13, 2013, 07:00:24 PM »

Not an icon proper (it's from the Austrian school in the early 1400s), but definitely wonky.



From a book cover I have.

A quite common western image of the period.
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« Reply #1285 on: December 22, 2013, 11:18:37 PM »

Merry Christmas, LBK!!!


 
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« Reply #1286 on: December 23, 2013, 12:47:27 AM »

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« Reply #1287 on: December 23, 2013, 01:36:27 PM »

Not an icon proper (it's from the Austrian school in the early 1400s), but definitely wonky.



From a book cover I have.

A quite common western image of the period.


The most famous being this one by Masaccio:

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« Reply #1288 on: December 23, 2013, 05:05:23 PM »

Merry Christmas, LBK!!!


 
If only Lentz had been commissioned for this one...

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« Reply #1289 on: December 23, 2013, 07:54:59 PM »

If only Lentz had been commissioned for this one...



He wouldn't be much interested, as it's a bit tricky putting a homosexual spin on it. Though he has painted a dark-haired, dark-bearded Joseph holding the young Christ:



Note that he is holding Christ with an uncovered hand, and the turtle-doves with a covered hand. The covered hand in iconography signifies humility and reverence. So, then, are the birds given in offering holier than the Son of God? Really?
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« Reply #1290 on: December 23, 2013, 11:49:17 PM »

Merry Christmas, LBK!!!


 
If only Lentz had been commissioned for this one...


At the risk of sounding stupid, what is wrong with this icon?
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« Reply #1291 on: December 23, 2013, 11:52:28 PM »

Merry Christmas, LBK!!!


 
If only Lentz had been commissioned for this one...


At the risk of sounding stupid, what is wrong with this icon?

It in no way comes close to expressing the richness of the teachings of the feast of the Nativity. It is simply a nice, sentimental picture rendered in an "iconographic" style.

The festal icon of the Nativity is utterly different from this image.
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« Reply #1292 on: December 24, 2013, 05:06:25 PM »


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« Reply #1293 on: December 24, 2013, 05:17:05 PM »



I like the spaghetti arms the Devil is waving at St. Joseph.
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« Reply #1294 on: December 24, 2013, 05:19:52 PM »

I like random room with gramophone, lamp and cat.
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« Reply #1295 on: December 24, 2013, 09:45:56 PM »

In honor, uh, observance, uh, may be reference to the Christmas 2 reading this year:


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« Reply #1296 on: December 25, 2013, 01:16:49 AM »




Where is this from, Michal?
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« Reply #1297 on: December 25, 2013, 04:36:31 AM »

My friend posted it on facebook. Taking into account he studied in Chambesy its probably Fr. Skliris'.
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« Reply #1298 on: December 25, 2013, 07:20:44 PM »















full album: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=oa.562125673881524&type=3

but I picked the best
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« Reply #1299 on: December 26, 2013, 01:08:59 AM »

Ouch, my eyes hurt now.  Angry
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« Reply #1300 on: December 26, 2013, 09:30:20 PM »

The Great High Federal Reserve Chairman


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« Reply #1301 on: December 27, 2013, 10:42:49 AM »

Ouch, my eyes hurt now.  Angry

+1 Even a single picture from these that Michal presented is not acceptable, totally. I don't know the source, but at least one of them is Ukrainian (the caption "Rizdvo"), maybe it's Greek Catholic?... They sometimes do very strange "icons" on the basis of the true ones...
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« Reply #1302 on: December 27, 2013, 02:26:10 PM »

Check the link I posted there.
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« Reply #1303 on: December 27, 2013, 02:29:42 PM »

Ouch, my eyes hurt now.  Angry

+1 Even a single picture from these that Michal presented is not acceptable, totally. I don't know the source, but at least one of them is Ukrainian (the caption "Rizdvo"), maybe it's Greek Catholic?... They sometimes do very strange "icons" on the basis of the true ones...

Oh my goodness. Those really were some bad ones.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #1304 on: December 27, 2013, 05:08:58 PM »

The ones with the gray skin tones are the worst. They speak of death and darkness, not of life and light. They are ugly in a far deeper sense than simply being crudely painted.

I really, really have trouble understanding what possesses people to paint such garbage.  Angry
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