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Author Topic: Schlock Icons  (Read 75351 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #1035 on: October 14, 2013, 06:01:30 PM »

Yes. That is the Ancient of Days. A non-canonical icon if I have ever seen one. Why do some iconostasi, especially the Russian Baroque and 19th c. style ones, have the triangular eye symbol?

This is how I have heard it:

"The Eye of Providence" (also known as the All-seeing Eye) is a symbol that exists in many cultures around the world. The oldest usage of the symbol appearently dates back to ancient Egypt. In Western iconography, an eye, enclosed by a triangle, have historically been used as a symbol of the Trinity. During the 18th and 19th century, the symbol, together with many other aspects of western art and iconography, was introduced to the Orthodox Church.
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« Reply #1036 on: October 14, 2013, 06:10:13 PM »

Here's a fully-painted one, of Great-princes and Tsars, all painted as saints. Alexander II is in the top right corner, among the group wearing the cloven crowns:




Link to the full-sized image:

http://nashaepoharu.512.com1.ru:8164/WWW/_Mediafiles/ikons/v_1.jpg

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« Reply #1037 on: October 14, 2013, 06:14:06 PM »

Holy crap at the hitler one.
Athos was under Hitler's personal protection at one time.

Hitler allowed the Church to bloom in territories under him.

Russian ultramonarchists who venerate all the tsars as saints. Yup, such folks do exist, and I have several of their paintings on file.

And we have them on the forum.

Really? Weird. One would need to be pretty far removed from reality to venerate Ivan IV or Peter III. Alexander I could be a saint if it's demonstrated that he is actually St. Feodor Kuchma. (Not sure of St. Feodor's official vita or service makes mention of that. I would think the Russian Church would want to see the bones of Tsar Alexander I first, given its scruples over the Romanov relics.)
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« Reply #1038 on: October 14, 2013, 06:49:17 PM »

Yes. That is the Ancient of Days. A non-canonical icon if I have ever seen one.

It's such a shame that it isn't canonical. Many of those I've seen have been most pleasant on the eyes, especially the one in the parish I knew as a child.

Holy crap at the hitler one.
Athos was under Hitler's personal protection at one time.

Hitler allowed the Church to bloom in territories under him.

Russian ultramonarchists who venerate all the tsars as saints. Yup, such folks do exist, and I have several of their paintings on file.

And we have them on the forum.

Really? Weird. One would need to be pretty far removed from reality to venerate Ivan IV or Peter III. Alexander I could be a saint if it's demonstrated that he is actually St. Feodor Kuchma. (Not sure of St. Feodor's official vita or service makes mention of that. I would think the Russian Church would want to see the bones of Tsar Alexander I first, given its scruples over the Romanov relics.)

Normally, I'm not one for conspiracy theories but the tale of a Tsar who faked his death to become a righteous pauper saint? That is not something I can just ignore.

Maybe I'm simply gullible and naive but the moment I heard about it, I became a true believer.
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« Reply #1039 on: October 14, 2013, 07:02:24 PM »

Yes. That is the Ancient of Days. A non-canonical icon if I have ever seen one.

Well, I think Ancient of Days is OK (if I'm remembering my LBKology right) when depicted as Christ and not as the Father; it's the triangle halo that's improper in this one. So apart from the halo shape, I'd say it's fine because the icon has the "ho on" in the halo, thus this icon is depicting Christ as Ancient of Days - not the Father. I'm not sure though if Ancient of Days icons have to depict Christ in the typical blue over red clothing, so that may be another issue with it too.

In short it may be canonically deficient, but I'd imagine it's still venerate-able even by somewhat stricter standards.
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« Reply #1040 on: October 14, 2013, 10:20:10 PM »

Yes. That is the Ancient of Days. A non-canonical icon if I have ever seen one. Why do some iconostasi, especially the Russian Baroque and 19th c. style ones, have the triangular eye symbol?

This is how I have heard it:

"The Eye of Providence" (also known as the All-seeing Eye) is a symbol that exists in many cultures around the world. The oldest usage of the symbol appearently dates back to ancient Egypt. In Western iconography, an eye, enclosed by a triangle, have historically been used as a symbol of the Trinity. During the 18th and 19th century, the symbol, together with many other aspects of western art and iconography, was introduced to the Orthodox Church.

The eye in the triangle may have come into use in Orthodox lands, but it is unacceptable in iconographic terms.
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« Reply #1041 on: October 14, 2013, 10:23:27 PM »

Yes. That is the Ancient of Days. A non-canonical icon if I have ever seen one. Why do some iconostasi, especially the Russian Baroque and 19th c. style ones, have the triangular eye symbol?

This is how I have heard it:

"The Eye of Providence" (also known as the All-seeing Eye) is a symbol that exists in many cultures around the world. The oldest usage of the symbol appearently dates back to ancient Egypt. In Western iconography, an eye, enclosed by a triangle, have historically been used as a symbol of the Trinity. During the 18th and 19th century, the symbol, together with many other aspects of western art and iconography, was introduced to the Orthodox Church.

The eye in the triangle may have come into use in Orthodox lands, but it is unacceptable in iconographic terms.

I've always been uncomfortable with it.  I try and comfort myself with the words "all-seeing eye" which come up in the priest's prayer at the bowing of heads at the end of the Orthros (and, of course, the accompanying prayer), but it is of little use.
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« Reply #1042 on: October 14, 2013, 10:47:37 PM »

Yes. That is the Ancient of Days. A non-canonical icon if I have ever seen one.

Well, I think Ancient of Days is OK (if I'm remembering my LBKology right) when depicted as Christ and not as the Father; it's the triangle halo that's improper in this one. So apart from the halo shape, I'd say it's fine because the icon has the "ho on" in the halo, thus this icon is depicting Christ as Ancient of Days - not the Father. I'm not sure though if Ancient of Days icons have to depict Christ in the typical blue over red clothing, so that may be another issue with it too.

In short it may be canonically deficient, but I'd imagine it's still venerate-able even by somewhat stricter standards.

You're almost right, Nephi. Christ can be depicted as the Ancient of Days, dressed in radiant garments, bearing the halo with the nine bars and the name of God, and with white hair and beard - but He should bear the inscription IC-XC, as is the case in the more commonplace icons of Him.

Here's an example:



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« Reply #1043 on: October 14, 2013, 10:55:35 PM »

You're almost right, Nephi. Christ can be depicted as the Ancient of Days, dressed in radiant garments, bearing the halo with the nine bars and the name of God, and with white hair and beard - but He should bear the inscription IC-XC, as is the case in the more commonplace icons of Him.

Here's an example:





That makes me wonder then, is IC-XC more important in an icon of Christ than the ho on?
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« Reply #1044 on: October 14, 2013, 10:56:50 PM »

.... and another:



The depiction of Christ is good, but the icon is spoiled by the inscriptions of the Evangelists' names next to the four heavenly creatures surrounding Him. While the creatures mystically represent the four Evangelists, naming them in this way is wrong. Sts Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all human beings in essence. St Luke was not an ox, St John was not an eagle, etc.
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« Reply #1045 on: October 14, 2013, 10:59:02 PM »

.... and another:



The depiction of Christ is good, but the icon is spoiled by the inscriptions of the Evangelists' names next to the four heavenly creatures surrounding Him. While the creatures mystically represent the four Evangelists, naming them in this way is wrong. Sts Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all human beings in essence. St Luke was not an ox, St John was not an eagle, etc.

Sorry, I didn't see the picture come out. I think I can tell what you mean, though.
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« Reply #1046 on: October 14, 2013, 11:01:39 PM »

You're almost right, Nephi. Christ can be depicted as the Ancient of Days, dressed in radiant garments, bearing the halo with the nine bars and the name of God, and with white hair and beard - but He should bear the inscription IC-XC, as is the case in the more commonplace icons of Him.

Here's an example:





That makes me wonder then, is IC-XC more important in an icon of Christ than the ho on?

The fresco I posted dates from the 12th century, when the halo was just as likely to feature jewels, as this one does. The three letters of the name of God began appearing in the halo at about this time, and quickly became the norm. It is not acceptable to omit the title IC-XC.
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« Reply #1047 on: October 14, 2013, 11:02:01 PM »

You're almost right, Nephi. Christ can be depicted as the Ancient of Days, dressed in radiant garments, bearing the halo with the nine bars and the name of God, and with white hair and beard - but He should bear the inscription IC-XC, as is the case in the more commonplace icons of Him.

Here's an example:





That makes me wonder then, is IC-XC more important in an icon of Christ than the ho on?

If you're trying to distinguish between a proper icon of Christ and an inappropriate icon of the Father, then yes, it certainly is.  The Ο ΩΝ is technically descriptive of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but IC XC is only descriptive of Christ.  You'll notice that in the icon in reply #1042 the Ο ΩΝ is missing, but it's obvious (9-bars of the halo cross) that the icon depicts a member of the Trinity; the IC XC solidifies that it is depicting the Son in the pre-incarnate form of the Ancient of Days of the revelation to Daniel.
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« Reply #1048 on: October 14, 2013, 11:02:59 PM »

.... and another:



The depiction of Christ is good, but the icon is spoiled by the inscriptions of the Evangelists' names next to the four heavenly creatures surrounding Him. While the creatures mystically represent the four Evangelists, naming them in this way is wrong. Sts Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were all human beings in essence. St Luke was not an ox, St John was not an eagle, etc.

Sorry, I didn't see the picture come out. I think I can tell what you mean, though.

Try this link, biro.

http://pravicon.com/images/icons/13/13206.jpg

Which browser are you using? It shows up OK on Firefox.
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« Reply #1049 on: October 14, 2013, 11:04:47 PM »

I still can't see it. I was using Safari on my phone. Thanks, though.
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« Reply #1050 on: October 14, 2013, 11:16:32 PM »

I still can't see it. I was using Safari on my phone. Thanks, though.

Can you see it now? It's the same image, from another site:

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« Reply #1051 on: October 14, 2013, 11:17:44 PM »

Aha! Now I see it. Thanks.
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« Reply #1052 on: October 14, 2013, 11:19:23 PM »

Aha! Now I see it. Thanks.

No problem.  Smiley
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« Reply #1053 on: October 16, 2013, 12:53:09 PM »

The icon that I was referring to had a triangular halo and no IC XC inscription. If this was a depiction of God the Father, it is uncanonical. Unfortunately, such depictions do exist in domes of churches done in 19th century style. However, they might hopefully be replaced.
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« Reply #1054 on: October 16, 2013, 12:58:52 PM »



Searching, then saw this one.  not sure if it was posted:

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« Reply #1055 on: October 16, 2013, 01:01:42 PM »

The icon that I was referring to had a triangular halo and no IC XC inscription. If this was a depiction of God the Father, it is uncanonical. Unfortunately, such depictions do exist in domes of churches done in 19th century style. However, they might hopefully be replaced.

Not really. Monument laws etc. At least here.
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« Reply #1056 on: October 16, 2013, 01:05:08 PM »

I have this in my icon corner:



I have no real intention of getting rid of it.  Sue me.  Tongue

But in searching for that, I found this:



Rather disturbing.  The Father has blue eyes, but the Son has brown.  Where did the Father get his recessive genes?    
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« Reply #1057 on: October 16, 2013, 01:06:26 PM »

Mor, I fear you have fallen to prelest.  Repent while there is still time.  Grin
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« Reply #1058 on: October 16, 2013, 01:08:41 PM »

Mor, I fear you have fallen to prelest.  Repent while there is still time.  Grin

That ship sailed a long time ago, at least according to some.  Tongue
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« Reply #1059 on: October 16, 2013, 01:12:30 PM »

Is the Spirit a male, female or androgynous in that pic?

Also, why does the Father have His beard tucked into His cloak?
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« Reply #1060 on: October 16, 2013, 01:14:45 PM »

Is the Spirit a male, female or androgynous in that pic?

Also, why does the Father have His beard tucked into His cloak?

It would be blasphemy to fully depict the true awesomeness of the beard.  There was a Council about it.
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« Reply #1061 on: October 16, 2013, 01:16:23 PM »

Is the Spirit a male, female or androgynous in that pic?

I'm pretty sure the Spirit is a woman's head budding from the back of a dove in flight (no doubt trying to escape). 
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« Reply #1062 on: October 16, 2013, 01:18:17 PM »

Is the Spirit a male, female or androgynous in that pic?


All three. And more.
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« Reply #1063 on: October 16, 2013, 02:01:36 PM »

But in searching for that, I found this:



Rather disturbing.  The Father has blue eyes, but the Son has brown.  Where did the Father get his recessive genes?    

Okay, the second picture, that woman/holy spirit/whatever it is/ reminds me of Alex Grey's "Sophia" which, if you paid attention in Gnosticism 101, she was supposedly the goddess of wisdom. I have heard some people try to say that the Holy Spirit and Sophia are in fact one (just so we are clear, I disagree with that), so maybe that's what the artist was shooting for?
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« Reply #1064 on: October 16, 2013, 02:09:07 PM »

Where does the Father and the Son get their self-tanning?  It's ghastly.
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« Reply #1065 on: October 16, 2013, 02:11:12 PM »

Also, why does the Father bless with the Name of Jesus?
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« Reply #1066 on: October 16, 2013, 04:43:11 PM »



And here I had thought that the Prosopon school had simply made it all up themselves. Glad to see that they're at least not that far gone.

Again, this is such a potentially attractive piece of imagery. Uncanonical and theologically deficient? Sure, but attractive nonetheless.
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« Reply #1067 on: October 16, 2013, 06:04:50 PM »



And here I had thought that the Prosopon school had simply made it all up themselves. Glad to see that they're at least not that far gone.

Again, this is such a potentially attractive piece of imagery. Uncanonical and theologically deficient? Sure, but attractive nonetheless.

Unfortunately, "attractive" does not trump "correct theology". Would you find a hymn or prayer tweaked to reflect an opinion or stance at odds with what the Church teaches acceptable, as long as it sounds good to the ears? Think about it.

And devotees of the Prosopon school aren't the only ones recycling the Paternity/Otechestvo image.  Tongue Tongue
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« Reply #1068 on: October 16, 2013, 06:07:50 PM »

This one's bad:
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« Reply #1069 on: October 16, 2013, 06:23:19 PM »

This one's bad:


Oh, yes, it's been in my schlock file for some time now.  Ghastly. Tongue laugh
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« Reply #1070 on: October 16, 2013, 06:33:51 PM »

Our Lady of China, apparently:

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« Reply #1071 on: October 16, 2013, 06:36:30 PM »

This one's bad:


Oh, yes, it's been in my schlock file for some time now.  Ghastly. Tongue laugh

It's not even a good bad icon  laugh
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« Reply #1072 on: October 16, 2013, 06:39:10 PM »

Our Lady of China, apparently:



This image was discussed at length in this thread:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,17565.0.html

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« Reply #1073 on: October 17, 2013, 05:28:37 AM »

Unfortunately, "attractive" does not trump "correct theology". Would you find a hymn or prayer tweaked to reflect an opinion or stance at odds with what the Church teaches acceptable, as long as it sounds good to the ears? Think about it.

No, no, certainly not. I don't support the production or propagation of any such images and neither do I consider them acceptable in the slightest. It's just that when I look at them as simple pieces of art, not that icons should ever be reduced to such, they're not necessarily aesthetically ugly.

Proper theology must always take precedence and what appeals to my fallen eyes need not matter in this regard.
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« Reply #1074 on: October 17, 2013, 05:39:42 AM »

Unfortunately, "attractive" does not trump "correct theology". Would you find a hymn or prayer tweaked to reflect an opinion or stance at odds with what the Church teaches acceptable, as long as it sounds good to the ears? Think about it.

No, no, certainly not. I don't support the production or propagation of any such images and neither do I consider them acceptable in the slightest. It's just that when I look at them as simple pieces of art, not that icons should ever be reduced to such, they're not necessarily aesthetically ugly.

Proper theology must always take precedence and what appeals to my fallen eyes need not matter in this regard.

Thank you for clarifying. I was getting a bit concerned .... Smiley
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« Reply #1075 on: October 20, 2013, 04:36:30 PM »



 
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« Reply #1076 on: October 20, 2013, 05:23:13 PM »



 

I'm pretty sure someone posted this one a few pages back.  Smiley
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« Reply #1077 on: October 20, 2013, 06:02:48 PM »

well then... mea culpa  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #1078 on: October 21, 2013, 06:20:48 AM »



Saint Michał
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« Reply #1079 on: October 21, 2013, 05:27:47 PM »

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