Author Topic: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage  (Read 8859 times)

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Offline biro

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #405 on: June 27, 2018, 09:15:31 PM »
Sexual acts are by choice.

Sexual orientation is not, as St. Seraphim could tell you.

I can repeat it as much as Scam wants, but I'm sure it won't sink in.

In any event, even if it were, sex between consenting adults is legal in the United States, except for the ban on prostitution in all states except Nevada. So, gay people have the legal right to make that choice.

Sorry you don't like the law around these parts.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #406 on: June 27, 2018, 09:42:02 PM »
Which St. Seraphim?
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #407 on: June 27, 2018, 11:10:29 PM »
Here's a little test to help you determine whether your own sexual orientation is a choice or not. Find before and after pictures of people who have undergone a successful sex change/gender transition. This is not hard to do on the internet. Now look at the pictures and ask yourself whether you would honestly rather spend the night with the male or the female version of the people in the pictures.  8)
« Last Edit: June 27, 2018, 11:11:15 PM by FinnJames »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #408 on: June 27, 2018, 11:39:18 PM »
Sexual acts are by choice.

I wonder if it’s really that simple...
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #409 on: June 28, 2018, 12:05:39 AM »
Sexual acts are by choice.

I wonder if it’s really that simple...
It is, it depends on how much you drink beforehand.  I can possibly answer other questions of wonderment if it falls into 1930s-1940s movie memes.

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline Alpo

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #410 on: June 28, 2018, 11:30:23 AM »
Here's a little test to help you determine whether your own sexual orientation is a choice or not. Find before and after pictures of people who have undergone a successful sex change/gender transition. This is not hard to do on the internet. Now look at the pictures and ask yourself whether you would honestly rather spend the night with the male or the female version of the people in the pictures.  8)

I've seen fairly attractive transgenders. I assume they've been attractive also before their transition.
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #411 on: June 28, 2018, 12:26:17 PM »
"I saw a miracle where 2 people entered church one by baptism and one by chrismation. On pictures the one received by full baptism was shinning in light the one by chrismation no."

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #413 on: June 28, 2018, 01:31:50 PM »
Sexual acts are by choice.

I wonder if it’s really that simple...
It is, it depends on how much you drink beforehand.  I can possibly answer other questions of wonderment if it falls into 1930s-1940s movie memes.

No, friend, I was being serious.
Mor Ephrem is a nice guy.  Just say sorry and it will all be ok. Say I had things that were inside troubling me but I didn't know how to express appropriately. I will not behave that way again but I am seeking help.

thank you so much Mor ephrem you are a hero!

Offline Ainnir

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #414 on: June 29, 2018, 08:48:55 AM »
Sexual acts are by choice.

I wonder if it’s really that simple...
It is, it depends on how much you drink beforehand.  I can possibly answer other questions of wonderment if it falls into 1930s-1940s movie memes.

No, friend, I was being serious.
At some point (unless we want to get really existential), it has to be that simple.  In terms of curtailing and directing, at the very least.  But simple =/= easy.  I think a lot of unnecessary frustration comes from thinking they're the same. And I do think this subject could benefit from a more existential treatment, instead of narrowing the definition of sexuality down to the pinpoint of attraction and copulation.  But our secular social sphere can't really do that, because then it would have to start asking questions it doesn't want to answer...
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 09:00:23 AM by Ainnir »
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #415 on: June 29, 2018, 10:52:53 AM »
Sexual acts are by choice.

I wonder if it’s really that simple...
It is, it depends on how much you drink beforehand.  I can possibly answer other questions of wonderment if it falls into 1930s-1940s movie memes.

No, friend, I was being serious.
OK. I will have to think about this some more, but first, I do think there is no difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals emotionally and spiritually. I do not know what sexual attraction is. I do understand what physical attraction is and it includes the person's mannerisms and the sound of their voice.

There are plenty of examples of heterosexuals in movies and 19th-20th century novels that match the situation with now with homosexuals that are worth exploring. Often the outcomes are sinful: drinking yourself to a stupor day in day out; suicide; murder (really popular fictitious outcome); rape; infidelity (also common); divorce; abandonment. But there are other outcomes that cannot be described in a simple word.
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline scamandrius

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #416 on: June 29, 2018, 03:56:03 PM »


I can repeat it as much as Scam wants, but I'm sure it won't sink in.


Just because you keep repeating it does not make it correct.  Present me with incontrovertible proof that sexual orientation is something that you are born or programmed with which cannot be undone.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2018, 03:59:29 PM by scamandrius »
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #417 on: June 29, 2018, 03:59:00 PM »
Here's a little test to help you determine whether your own sexual orientation is a choice or not. Find before and after pictures of people who have undergone a successful sex change/gender transition. This is not hard to do on the internet. Now look at the pictures and ask yourself whether you would honestly rather spend the night with the male or the female version of the people in the pictures.  8)

Wow.  This is absolutely brilliant. 
Da quod iubes et iube quod vis.

Offline FinnJames

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #418 on: June 29, 2018, 04:18:53 PM »


I can repeat it as much as Scam wants, but I'm sure it won't sink in.


Just because you keep repeating it does not make it correct.  Present me with incontrovertible proof that sexual orientation is something that you are born or programmed with which cannot be undone.

Somehow I don't think we're going to get very far with this because there is nothing 'you were born or programmed with which cannot be undone' in these days of sex-change operations/gender reassignment surgery and the like. But--

perhaps this analogy will be helpful: It's pretty widely agreed by both scientists and laypeople  that a certain percentage of infants favour one hand over the other from birth. (This appears to be the case in other mammals as well, if what I've read about dogs is correct.) But we all know that it is possible to 'undo' this either by severely punishing the (left-handed) child (as used to be done) or through the loss of the use of the favoured hand from a stroke or amputation. Of course using the 'wrong' hand isn't (as far as I know) considered a sin in the bible or by the Church Fathers, so the Church isn't worried about left-handers to the point of denying them communion if they don't repent.

Offline Agabus

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #419 on: June 29, 2018, 05:36:52 PM »
I would never commune a left-handed dog.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #420 on: June 29, 2018, 05:37:40 PM »
I would never commune a left-handed dog.

never would I comrade!
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
« Reply #421 on: July 01, 2018, 02:43:39 AM »
I would never commune a left-handed dog.
I always ask if there isn't a table for normal people when there are only those for the left-handed left. Usually only the left-handed laugh at that.
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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriag
« Reply #422 on: July 01, 2018, 07:58:57 AM »
Here's a little test to help you determine whether your own sexual orientation is a choice or not. Find before and after pictures of people who have undergone a successful sex change/gender transition. This is not hard to do on the internet. Now look at the pictures and ask yourself whether you would honestly rather spend the night with the male or the female version of the people in the pictures.  8)

I don’t think this is helpful at all, because my heart is broken by the appearance of self-mutillated people, whether it is people who have covered themselves with tatoos, or piercings, or some of the very elaborate forms of self mutilation in some tribal societies, or people who had perfectly healthy, functional bodies who resorted to destructive surgery because they were not content with that which God gave them.  The only thing more sad to see than someone who has self mutilated are those who have been involuntarily mutilated (women who are victims of FGM, or footbinding, or the tragic historic cases of men involuntarily castrated as boys, and also, the particularly unpleasant case of a tribal culture in, if memory serves, Southeast Asia or Indonesia, who would elongate the necks of their girls by locking metal rings around them, which once installed, cannot safely be removed past a certain point).  The tragedy of the involuntarily mutilated has the effect of making those who self-mutilate an even more depressing sight to behold, for these are individuals who have had extreme alterations made to their human body without justification.

On this point we must stress that the human body, which will be resurrected, is integral to the person; Orthodoxy knows of no such thing as a woman trapped in a man’s body (a common delusion in Indonesia); such a delusion is a delusion precisely because we reject a Gnostic or Docetic worldview, and surgical alterations that destroy a healthy reproductive physiology in order to imitate in appearance the physiology of another gender, seem to be destructive acts, violations of the human body on a par with the barbaric practice of cremation.  There are possible exceptions concerning persons born with actual deformities of the reproductive system, the so called “intersexed,” which I shall address.

Before that, however, I should like you to consider that Canon I of the Council of Nicea precludes anyone who has by their own choice been castrated from taking on Holy Orders, and while at the time this primarily had in mind male clergy who were self-castrating as a twisted form of asceticism, I think we can interpret this canon as applying to anyone who has any kind of sex-change surgery, regardless of gender, as completely disqualified, particularly in the majority of cases where this kind of radical surgery destroys reproductive function.

I can endorse gender-assignment surgery only in the case of “intersexed” individuals, that is to say, persons born with ambiguous genitalia or hermaphroditism.  Tragically, in those cases, there is usually no reproductive function (also in some men who have an extra X chromosome, so their sex chromosomes are XXY instead of XY); this sexual assignment surgery should, if there is or likely will be reproductive functionality, seek to align the person to their prospective reproductive capability, physiologically, or in other cases, follow a de minimis approach.  If there are two options of equal viability, if the surgery can be delayed until after puberty, this seems to me desirable, in that in such a case the victim of the birth defect may have formed a psychological association with a particular gender, and where this exists in the absence of any other clear guide as to which gender to surgically assign the person to, this association would provide such guidance.  Individuals treated for reproductive system birth defects in this manner I think could be married by the Church.   However, an individual who chose to remain “intersexed” and declined assignment surgery without a valid medical reason (such as other birth defects or hereditary diseases, or other conditions, which would preclude assignment surgery) I think would be ineligible for holy matrimony.

Likewise, needless to say, the Church cannot crown in wedlock individuals who were born with healthy reproductive organs, but who destroyed that functionality due to a gravely destructive passion motivating them to seek to posess a gender different from that which God gave them.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2018, 07:59:54 AM by Alpha60 »
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Offline Agabus

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Re: Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriag
« Reply #423 on: July 02, 2018, 04:00:13 PM »
However, an individual who chose to remain “intersexed” and declined assignment surgery without a valid medical reason (such as other birth defects or hereditary diseases, or other conditions, which would preclude assignment surgery) I think would be ineligible for holy matrimony.

So you're saying that someone shouldn't be allowed to marry because they accepted the body God gave them?

Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

THE OPINIONS HERE MAY NOT REFLECT THE ACTUAL OR PERCEIVED ORTHODOX CHURCH

Take a breath, read Ecclesiastes 1:9.