Author Topic: How to interpret such design.  (Read 329 times)

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Offline Ray1

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How to interpret such design.
« on: December 09, 2017, 09:32:54 AM »
Just like we’re asked to know God through creation, to glorify him when we look at how he made the universe and all of nature, it is fair also to ask questions when we are presented with “mistakes” in creation. It is not fair to ask us to look around us and see God, or like what is said in Romans, that we have no excuse because God showed himself through creation, while nature presents to us all kinds of disturbing mistake in design that makes it difficult to accept the claim that there is an intelligent designer behind it. Such arguments are used to discredit the Intelligent Design movement and attack Creationism, but I believe they extend to the idea of a God as understood in the Abrahamic religions.

Our bodies have several examples of such mistakes in our design, to give a case that shocked me when I found out about, is the way women’s bodies are designed, and how they are not suited for giving birth. Thousands of children and women died because of such flaw in design, and the babies that didn’t die were left with a good deal of damage to their brains. Basically, the way the birth canal in women is made, it makes giving birth painful, and sometimes deadly.

Putting that example in perspective, how can I see an Intelligent Designer in such a flaw? Dealy flaw at that? Such case can be easily understood from an evolutionary perspective, one with no intelligent design, one that is guided by natural forces only. Since God can not commit evil, then how come he made us with such a design that resulted and continue to result in the death of thousands of mothers and/or their babies? A mother would know how awful it must have been for another mother to lose her child during birth. I’m sure any woman that knows what it is like to be a mother, and any man that knows what it is like to be a father, would understand how awful it must have been for the millions to be told that their child died during labor.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 10:59:19 AM »
how can I see an Intelligent Designer in such a flaw? Dealy flaw at that? Such case can be easily understood from an evolutionary perspective, one with no intelligent design, one that is guided by natural forces only.

Quite the contrary, imo. The idea that we live in a fallen world, that our material bodies as they exist are part of that fallen world, that they  are given to breaking down and even broken down from the start, and they they are distorted and corrupted versions of the original intention for our bodies, seems like a much better explanation for such 'mistakes.' On the other hand, this is exactly the kind of 'mistake' that evolution by natural selection is supposed to weed out. I mean, the exact kind of thing. Evolutionary theory is not about 'survival of the fittest' so much as 'continuance of those best able to adapt and procreate.' The key driver of evolution is supposed to be a weeding out of fatal flaws and an unthinking ('natural') selection in favor of differences ('mutations') which give an advantage to that survive+procreate process. With some species the problem of infant frailty and fatality was overcome by having a mother give birth to hundreds of tiny infants during her lifetime. In such cases the fatalities for the creatures takes place due largely to the environment and predators they must face (ie. external factors). With humans, however, most mothers would probably give birth to a half dozen to a dozen infants at most, those infants would be unable to do even the most basic survival tasks for many years after, and the more children the mother had the more likely death was for her... many of these problems being linked to the human bodies themselves.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 11:01:38 AM by Asteriktos »

Offline Ray1

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 04:19:39 PM »
Hi, Asteriktos, let me thank you for taking the time address my question.

I would agree with your response if it weren't for what the theory of evolution (scientific fact) says about life on earth state millions of years before humans showed up. You said that such flaws in our design are due to the corrupt world we live in, which would make sense if humans were the first to show up on earth. But as the geological data show, the party called life started way before we arrived. Death, destruction, corruption, and flaws in design existed before Adam and Eve (or who they supposedly represent in the story). Why did death exist before humans? If human's original sin (however it is understood in Eastern Orthodoxy) is the reason why the world become corrupt, and death entered the world, then who's responsible for death and destruction before that? Did you know that at least 95% of species that were on earth went extinct already? My questions are not to Creationists only, but also to the majority of Christians worldwide who take the story of creation symbolically, what is the 'fall'? Who's responsible? What were the consequences of the fall of humans on earth? If our design was corrupted because of our fall, what would explain the flaws in the design of other creatures, flaws that caused the extinction of countless species through millions of years? Was there a special fall for other animals? That is why it seems that the idea of an intelligent designer difficult to believe because what we see through scientific data, is that life is random, it's messy, and the vast majority of those who lived on earth went extinct either because the earth was not suited for their living, or they weren't adapted to live on earth, either way, that challenges the idea of God creating the world "good", while in reality, it was anything but good, before even humans showed up.

Offline Ainnir

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2017, 05:59:42 PM »
Am I correct in inferring that the main flaw you're calling out here is death of non-human species?  And pain in childbirth?  I'm just sort of curious what specifically you're labeling as design flaws, and according to what framework.  Otherwise, I have nothing to add, as this isn't a focus of mine.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Ray1

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2017, 08:52:20 PM »
Am I correct in inferring that the main flaw you're calling out here is death of non-human species?  And pain in childbirth?  I'm just sort of curious what specifically you're labeling as design flaws, and according to what framework.  Otherwise, I have nothing to add, as this isn't a focus of mine.

The design flaw I'm using as an example is the birth canal in women, this area is tight, sometimes to the point that a baby cannot be delivered naturally. That "flaw" means when the baby is being delivered to the world, there are times when the bones can actually kill the baby, it can harm their little head. Basically, the birth canal area in women wasn't designed in a way that works for giving birth in the first place. Now my question was, why would an intelligent designer make such a "flaw" that caused the death of thousands of children, or at least to be born with a brain damage? From an evolutionary perspective, it is because we started walking on two legs, but from a religious perspective, why? It may be said because of what Adam and Eve did, which the Bible states that means women will give birth in pain, but that seems too harsh actually considering that babies who did nothing wrong are the most likely victim of such "curse".
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 08:55:12 PM by Ray1 »

Offline Ainnir

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 10:47:39 PM »
/sigh.  Your curiosity is outpacing your sensitivity.  Not for my sake, mind.
Study more physiology.  Maybe find a person or two you can hash this out privately with--who know what they're talking about.
Is any of the above Orthodox?  I have no clue, so there's that.

Offline Ray1

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 11:23:16 PM »
/sigh.  Your curiosity is outpacing your sensitivity.  Not for my sake, mind.
Study more physiology.  Maybe find a person or two you can hash this out privately with--who know what they're talking about.

Oh ok, that was very helpful, not.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 11:28:55 PM by Ray1 »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 11:41:54 PM »
/sigh.  Your curiosity is outpacing your sensitivity.  Not for my sake, mind.
Study more physiology.  Maybe find a person or two you can hash this out privately with--who know what they're talking about.

Oh ok, that was very helpful, not.

What happened to you? 
How this relates to the coming Antichrist? I don't know...

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Offline Ray1

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2017, 11:43:38 PM »
/sigh.  Your curiosity is outpacing your sensitivity.  Not for my sake, mind.
Study more physiology.  Maybe find a person or two you can hash this out privately with--who know what they're talking about.

Oh ok, that was very helpful, not.

What happened to you?

What do you mean?

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: How to interpret such design.
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 12:53:09 AM »
From a strictly scientifica POV, if these supposed flaws were really essential (a paradox) rather than eventual exceptions, evolution would have dealed with them either by killing us all or fixing them. Another stupid example of your claim is how the nearness between our trachea and larynx favour choking, which can be deadly.

So, how many people die from choking? It seems to be beneath 0,003% of the population. How many people refrain from dying asphyxiated from boogers because the nearness of both channels allows one to mouthbreath with an obstructed nose? How more complicated would talking be if this arrangement didn't favour the release of air? What about the mouth's function in regulating humidity and heat of the air?

Sure, God could have created us without boogers, with more self-cleaning noses. We could talk only using non-pulmonic sounds, just like languages like Xhosa have non-pulmonic consonants. Our inner system could regulate humidity and heat without usage of the mouth, just like it does, respectively, to the humidity-sensitive eyes and our heat-sensitive testicles. But why should he, if 99,997% of the times it works just so fine?

Sure, our body can err sometimes, but this is not heaven yet. Our body is an amazingly harmonic and near-perfect machine, there's no sense in looking for mistakes just to blame God.
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