Author Topic: On churches  (Read 797 times)

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Offline mikeforjesus

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On churches
« on: January 09, 2020, 05:56:52 PM »
I choose to follow only scripture and to teach that all Christians can be saved. If I am wrong about the possibility that apostolic fathers may have lied or told to teach as they did by apostle John or that they are only applicable for their time and misunderstood then I could be deceptive but I could be right and I am going to reject to outcast other Christians and follow only the bible


but I will support the possibility that both churches have support of the fathers so as not to judge them

The orthodox view the chair of peter as a concept the church uses to describe the unity of the church and the faith of the whole church. That everyone who is with the bishop when he like Peter speaks the true faith is in the church. The orthodox believe each bishop must defend the faith of the church but the catholic think the pope defines the faith. They differ but they both may have apostolic authority given from Christ to them and neither church has serious heresies that exclude her from Christ but only they have authority to administer the sacraments

A schismatic is really supposed to be someone who believes the same as the true church but withdraws by hostile separations. Either church can not be really schismatic if they don’t know for sure they are wrong since the orthodox may think if they accept the papacy they will be accepting a heresy that is against the peace of the church

I recommend this Orthodox book

THE PAPACY; ITS HISTORIC ORIGIN AND PRIMITIVE RELATIONS with the EASTERN CHURCHES by ABBÉ GUETTÉE, D.D.,
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 06:07:34 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2020, 06:18:50 PM »
I have said elsewhere

it is possible the apostles told them to preach as they did to allow for christians not to judge others for different beliefs and to test people so they may be excused even for teaching as they did but they could not deceive those who heard the truth from the apostles and they may have taught after the apostles died. But ignatius may have taught when St. John was alive that may not have been a problem as the apostles might have taught you need the sacraments at that time because at that time the church was one and the gifts of the Spirit were obvious from the church only but God may have given the gifts to us now. People may doubt irenaeus knew polycarp or even doubt polycarp knew St. John as they who heard that lived in the second century and polycarp was a young man when he supposedly met St. John which he may have but there was no proof of it so there is an excuse. Maybe even in the second century the gifts of the Spirit were widespread from the church so irenaeus may have been right then
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 06:25:12 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2020, 07:21:51 PM »
It is not clear whether the majority of fathers in the early centuries supported the papacy. It may only exist in 3rd century earliest by some but is not necessarily the view of apostolic fathers it may have been an invention by some like pope Damascus that not all agreed some later may have like Peter chrysologus. I know Orthodox consider him orthodox but it seems with this quote he did not unless we say the Roman pope was holding the faith of Peter at that time because it was orthodox
Not all may have agreed with those in Rome which held they are the only church and Rome may not have always held that but if they did it was an invention not from the apostolic fathers. I think not all agreed with Rome claim which is why we have many saying the church is built on the faith of Peter not on Peter

POPE DAMASUS I
“Likewise it is decreed . . . that it ought to be announced that . . . the holy Roman Church has not been placed at the forefront [of the churches] by the conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: ‘You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it; and I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. . . . ’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither stain nor blemish nor anything like it” (Decree of Damasus 3 [A.D. 382]).

Peter Chrysologus of Ravenna
"We exhort you, honorable brother, to submit yourself in all things to what has been written by the blessed Bishop of Rome, because St. Peter, who lives and presides in his see, gives the true faith to those who seek it. For our part, for the sake of peace and the good of the faith, we cannot judge questions of doctrine without the consent of the Bishop of Rome." [Letter 25:2 to the Priest Eutyches]

I have seen other quotes in early 2nd century but they can refer to every bishop who teaches the truth who is Peter when he is right and holds the faith for the rest of the bishops that must agree to be in the church and rest of the church

https://www.churchfathers.org/origins-of-peter-as-pope
« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 07:32:27 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2020, 06:45:11 PM »
I believe Jesus is the truth we show grow closer to but as we are weak we may believe in having other masters over us. You should submit to people only in the Lord and only take them as guides in the spiritual way when they are following Christ. If you believe them as masters you should submit to them but some of us don’t think they should be full masters in everything but should focus not only on theology but on righteous living
The pope is supposed to teach the truth to the church and everyone has to just accept the tradition as though Jesus revealed it to him. But Jesus said call no one on earth your teacher

But even so in the early church it was not understood by all that the Roman pope is head of the church
Pope Damascus not liking the second ecumenical council decision of Constantinople being regarded second in see set his sea above the rest and thought maybe he had reason to by the words of Jesus
But it was not commonly understoood that way

All the quotes in origin of Peter as pope do not actually justify him as pope but just refer to the faith being typified in Peter and every non apostolic church which wants to oppose a apostolic church built on peter in the sense that the bishop represents him when he confesses the true faith and whoever opposes they believed condemns themself



Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2020, 06:57:54 PM »
This is the actual quote of tertullian. Do you think he thinks Jesus gave the keys only to Peter when he was alive not to the bishops. And similar to people who are like him in the spirit but that was when he stopped following that invention that was being spread that peter is the pope

‘But,’ you say ‘the Church has the power of forgiving sins.’ This I acknowledge and adjure more (than you; I) who have the Paraclete Himself in the persons of the new prophets… . I now inquire into your opinion, (to see) from what source you usurp this right to ‘the Church.’ If, because the Lord has said to Peter, ‘Upon this rock will I build My Church,’ ‘to thee have I given the keys of the heavenly kingdom;’ or, ‘Whatsoever thou shall have bound or loosed in earth, shall be bound or loosed in the heavens,’ you therefore presume that the power of binding and loosing has derived to you, that is, to every Church akin to Peter, what sort of man are you, subverting and wholly changing the manifest intention of the Lord, conferring (as that intention did) this (gift) personally upon Peter? ‘On thee,’ He says, ‘will I build My Church; ‘and I will give to thee the keys,’ not to the Church; and, ‘Whatsoever thou shall have loosed or bound,’ not what they shall have loosed or bound. For so withal the result teaches. In (Peter) himself the Church was reared; that is, through (Peter) himself; (Peter) himself essayed the key… . For in accordance with the person of Peter, it is to spiritual men that this power will certainly appertain, either to an apostle or else to a prophet… . and thus from that time forward, every number (of persons) who may have combined together into this faith is accounted ‘a Church’ from the Author and Consecrator (of the Church). And accordingly ‘the Church,’ it is true, will forgive sins: but (it will be) the Church of the Spirit, by means of a spiritual man; not the Church which consists of a number of bishops.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2020, 07:46:18 PM »
The other option is that Rome did have primacy by Jesus but not supremacy
It would keep the faith perfectly and other churches we’re still part of the church but not of the sea of Rome. All the heresies in other churches would seperate them from the church but in so far as other churches do not give into any serious heresies they would still be a part of the church for peter was just not to be lord but servant. They were free to not believe something that doesn’t seem like you can know is true like immaculate conception. Because others were apostolic they were still part of the one church. However I believe peter was leader out of respect but this did not apply to his successors. He would serve all the Christians of his time. Only someone with special gifts that he shows the world deserves to be a leader who would not lord the sacraments over people who were never reached. The sacraments are commands that are fitting and not to do them may punish one temporary they either don’t regenerate one though Christ may be present in them to let them know they belong to Christ and encourage them but they still would belong and it is to encourage people but they are not the only means of grace maybe they still have grace to make one bear as much fruit not to go to purgatory but they still bear fruit without it
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 07:48:55 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2020, 07:52:25 PM »
I had another great thing I think to say but I thought it may not be good to at this time
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 07:59:11 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2020, 07:09:34 AM »
had thoughts to share but maybe later to make it better readable
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 07:15:01 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2020, 08:15:58 AM »
St. Ambrose ("On the Incarnation")
Faith is the foundation of the Church, for it was not of the person but of the faith of St. Peter that it was said that the gates of hell should not prevail against it;  it is the confession of faith that has vanquished hell.  Jesus Christ is the Rock.  He did not deny the grace of His name when He called him Peter, because he borrowed from the rock the constancy and solidity of hisfaith.  Endeavor then, thyself to be a rock -- thy rock is thy faith, and faith is the foundation of the Church.  If thou art a rock, thou shalt be in the Church, for the Church is built upon the rock


The Lord Jesus goes up only into the Ark of the Church ... This Ship ... preserves safe from harm all those it carries within it. We have a true figure of this in the Old Testament; for, as all whom Noah took with him in the Ark were saved ... so, when the world shall be destroyed by fire, the Church of Peter will keep safe within her everyone she cherishes as her own.
- St. Ambrose

What is the orthodox view of not deserting the chair of peter and was this really the view of all the church from the beginning that the church of Peter is only that which accepts the pope as necessary to be under and that he is infallible or is the church of peter that which keeps the faith of Peter which could include orthodox for when Peter wilfully errs or errs for I don’t believe in his infallibility though he is given grace perhaps to be the first to speak the truth yet when he errs the other disciples can spot it but he is given more grace to speak the truth

If I had believed in churches it could be there is but one church the pope has been given primacy but when he errs the other apostles take over but he is most able to teach the true faith and we should look to what he teaches but sometimes he doesn’t teach the truth and God let’s the other apostles find the truth but sometimes he lets the truth to only be taught by him to respect the pope so there is one church so if orthodox disagree with it then they are in danger but it will never be a truth that is exclusive I don’t know that but I hope that


I believe God is not author of any divisions of Christians but it is man made allowed by God

I won’t join any church because I don’t know what Gods will for me is if I join the Catholic Church I could stumble orthodox if I join the Orthodox Church I could stumble Protestants I see no reason catholics should be upset because they don’t have to be orthodox especially if they think catholicism is or could be right maybe they are drawn to the spirituality of orthodoxy but do they have to believe orthodoxy is the true church or more true to the point of denying Catholics are part of the church the pope having supposed to have the role in being the first to say the true faith though he does not always and God can guide other disciples if he refuses to say the truth he should be the one which most guards orthodoxy as God gave him ability but other disciples can spot out when he contradicts God will show them or just part of it to be received do they have to absolutely not believe the successors of Peter in Rome had any primacy they should be allowed to take part in orthodoxy to be convinced it is also part of the church while still being Catholic in their beliefs they should actually remain catholic but try to teach fellow Catholics to be more spiritual like the orthodox for they can think they are only right but fear orthodox also have the truth therefore I don’t know for sure if any of them is really now God’s will for me
If I am serious about saving souls I can’t play games I supposedly would save my own soul but I would potentially stumble other souls therefore I trust Jesus is the only saviour
It is sad that I still don’t have proof I am Christian I still seek it from God I am told by the church fathers unless I am in the ark I will perish but I don’t think that is true because God wouldn’t judge someone wanting to do the right thing not that I feel very ready yet to meet God the ark is baptism many will perish without it but they will be saved later if they we’re good Christians
Baptism could be a means of receiving the Holy Spirit in the past on some occasions but not always but it was always for continuous removal of guilt of all sins in this life to feel new so it is always needed for salvation but you can still be a good Christian without it having a measure of the Holy Spirit without it but perhaps baptism refers to a death to sin and rising through spiritual water of the Holy Spirit a cleansing happening which may not happen only in the water
The spiritual water is an anti type to the waters of the flood or God works in His sacraments but is not bound by them if he understands a person situation that a loved one followed Jesus but never was taught baptism is more than a profession of faith 
so they don’t want to leave them behind if they thought they are responsible for them not being baptised and they will only be baptised if they are sure they will be saved later
You can’t be responsible for other people sins though only if you misled them in doctrines but even if you did not mislead them a person may pity an unbaptised because they were misled that baptism is just a profession and not absolutely important that is why that person feels compelled not to be baptised but you should be baptised and accept them to be saved later it is my view baptism should not be necessary as long as they love God and are following Him but they will be punished for all their sins first but delivered on the day of judgement by their righteous living but only God knows if it is necessary so you should be baptised incase but you will be held responsible if you are not truly repentant if you are persistent in wanting to do wrong and no good intention and you know what your doing is not good but they are responsible for themselves and you may harm them but I’m not sure but they are responsible for themselvers


The chair of peter has no significance if Peter is not currently exercising the truth
The truth is supposed to be confirmed by the pope but everyone is in the church who agrees with the truth those are more likely to have the truth in the Catholic Church but when they are not orthodox they are in error orthodox have the advantage that they get to accept the Catholic Church beliefs when it is orthodox they have the early church fathers so if they accept previous popes they have the whole truth and are in the church

So God will guide those in the church to the end whether it is catholic or orthodox which will also include catholic
But I believe God guides all believers in the truth and none of the churches have the true faith but God can reveal the truth to any person as it is said flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but My Father who is in heaven

If orthodox are more right does that mean Catholics are charged with heresy no because they have it in ignorance from a schism not their fault if there is a true church the Catholic Church is the true church but the previous pope made a schism through a heresy that the early church believed one needed to be subject to the pope and not his faith but he is not charged with the schism unless knowingly
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 08:23:39 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2020, 01:43:12 PM »
The church is built on the faith of Peter Rome should say the faith correct first but if it does not the other apostles can say it the Orthodox Church thinks it always says the truth but I don’t believe it does so will the gates of hades prevail against it if it does not know the truth no because I believe the rock is the confession of faith and even if you have imperfect knowledge you can be saved but you would help more be saved if you have perfect knowledge

http://www.saintjonah.org/articles/maximos1.htm
« Last Edit: May 05, 2020, 01:47:34 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2020, 05:46:53 AM »
Luke 22:24-28
24 Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should
be considered the greatest. 25 And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority over them are called ‘benefactors.’ 26 But not so among you; on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.
28 “But you are those who have continued with Me in My trials. 29 And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed one upon Me, 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
Jesus Predicts Peter’s Denial
(Matt. 26:31–35; Mark 14:27–31; John 13:36–38)

Jesus seems to be saying any of the disciples can be considered greatest and such is not by Jesus choice but because they serve the most

If we say peter was not greatest in heaven but on earth he is greatest

But it says only the gentiles exercised lordship to insist people must be under the pope is lordship to force it only under his teaching though if he errs you don’t have to agree with him and anyway in many matters they should not be such you have to believe or you can not be saved or that is lording a teaching over others and it may not make sense for it to be a matter worthy of judgement but if he had a role of service over the disciples I could agree but I believe the bible says call no one on earth your teacher not that there should not be order in the church and teachers but they are not infallible and they would not teach exclusively
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 05:52:07 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2020, 08:39:59 AM »
The orthodox understand all are in the church who share the faith of Peter

Some may have believed pope had a primacy but not a supremacy the pope may not get it completely right for failing to do his job then the orthodox can point out where they think he is wrong

If people have imperfect knowledge of the truth they can still be saved but I think when it says the gates of hades shall not prevail against the church it means it will teach everything right so people can know how to be saved but it is not only to Peter that God will reveal all that is necessary to be saved for God can reveal it to others also but He will ensure it is in His church also first if they really exercise their gift faithfully which they may choose not to God will desire to make Peter first if He is diligent but if He is not the other apostles can also

As long as you are accepting the pope when he is orthodox you are connected to the chair of Peter that’s how cyprian was still in the church

That is the understanding of cyprian he was between catholic and orthodox

But the orthodox position held by some fathers is that you don’t have to accept the person of the pope because he is the pope and should be first to speak but he should have a primacy of honour to remember St. Peter because he may speak the truth first again whether you believe in his primacy or not if you agree with the faith then you are in the church they may also agree that the chair of Peter is his faith it is better to believe he may say the truth first but you don’t have to

Because it was only until cyprian that we hear of chair of peter other saints like st Anthony and st macarius confess peter was chief of apostles they may have only meant he could speak the truth again first and you have to only accept the faith that is true whether you believe in it or not

But therefore we don’t know if cyprian was catholic or orthodox or the other saints
Not deserting the chair of peter may mean not deserting the faith of the pope and not the pope if he is orthodox or it could mean you have to accept the pope if he is orthodox and as having primacy while orthodox may only accept the pope if he is orthodox but not also have to accept his primacy

But if orthodox believe the right things can Catholics be in the church who slightly believe different things ?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 08:46:02 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2020, 08:54:34 AM »
I believe God wants all believers to have a personal relationship with Christ but he can allow them to be in churches to serve in them or if one is not sure it is not true but most important thing is for all to have a personal relationship with Christ
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 08:56:24 AM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2020, 02:56:47 PM »
I believe an orthodox can accept a Roman Catholic though if we think they believe in some heresies they do not believe in heresy that we can determine is wrong or that is deadly some church fathers really gave them their views and we can not know what the bible actually teaches though if God guides all without the pope maybe the orthodox are right therefore they don’t commit the sin that leads to death and orthodox also believe in prayer of the dead if you have sin that does not lead to death though not believing in a purgatory but mercy and release for them but they will not go to hades at all if they walk according to the teaching of the church but they can be released from it
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 03:05:59 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Sethrak

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Re: On churches
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2020, 03:39:59 PM »
Greetings Mike ~ The Holy Bible is ~ I hope you know is: Some of but not all of: ~ Our Records ~ The Records of the Early Church ~ as close as we remember and have been able to keep them ~ the rest is kept in Church Tradition ~ it is said ~ and I believe that if the Bible ~ parish the thought ~ were thrown out of an airplane and found by a group who made a religion from what they read ~ it would resemble Christianity in no way ~ I believe that ~ you've heard atheists attack Christianity using the clips from our Book ~ using legal language ~ saying this means that Therefore ~ taking advantage or the fact that most Christians don't understand that much of our faith is found in tradition and is teaching of apostles ~ Mike I know you search for the truth and The Christ and truly want to know what he wants of us ~ searching in the Christian Bible is good ~ we've kept it as clean and close as we could it's really very close to what he said and did and the Apostles as well ~ most of the Apostles were killed ~ but we remember what the told us ~ the True Church is Apostolic started by and Apostle ~ what they taught is held in tradition and cannot be found in Our Holy Book ~ we're willing to share that truth with you Mike ~ we remember and follow the teaching ```

God be with you brother ```



seth

Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2020, 04:01:41 PM »
I respect your views but I believe the apostles served all believers not like the church fathers the bible talks about a certain person in epistle of john who did not receive the brethren and I think God may have allowed men to create a divisive doctrine and sent them but no one had to receive them for they would have only tested generations after for those in their generation knew the truth so people only follow Christ I am not convinced Christianity should be exclusive but if others find comfort in the concept of the church I won’t attack it but I don't think it will be it may be I have to join another church but allow people to be orthodox if they want. I will go to church to allow it to be convincing though I want others not to take it seriously and allow them to stumble because I don't think it will be convincing
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 04:15:46 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2020, 04:22:50 PM »
I will go to church if I feel it can convince me that there is no life outside the church but I think there is so others should not stumble by me going to church
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 04:32:52 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2020, 04:40:18 PM »
the truth is you can never prove the church is wrong God allowed these different churches if people want to join it they can but I will probably serve in other churches if I feel the holy spirit convinces me He accepts me though I can never prove to others. But I will go to both churches im sure the church wont convince me that I need it or that I was wrong to accept other christians
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 04:51:16 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2020, 04:55:17 PM »
I would like to delete that part of wrong to accept other christians for it is evil to say that. I mean to convince me that it is right that others should have to accept the church. I don't think the church will convince me but I will go and have communion to see if it does
« Last Edit: May 20, 2020, 04:57:28 PM by mikeforjesus »

Offline Sethrak

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Re: On churches
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2020, 12:21:47 PM »
Go than brother with good speed and health ~ may you find what fills your need ```
Իմաստութիւն Հոր Յիսուս՝ տո՝ւր մեզ իաստուփին՝ զբարիս խորհել եւ խոսել եւ գործել առաջի Քո յամենայն ժամ : եւ ի չար խորհրդոց ի բանից եւ ի գործոց   փրկեա  զմեզ՝ ամէն:
Jesus, Wisdom of the Father, give us wisdom, to think, speak and do what is Good before you at all times. And save us from evil thoughts, words and deed, amen.

Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: On churches
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2020, 02:06:45 PM »
Thankyou dear brother :)