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Author Topic: OCA and Metropolitan Jonah Reached an Understanding?  (Read 29674 times) Average Rating: 3
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« Reply #1080 on: July 22, 2014, 03:22:01 PM »

As of a few weeks ago, as I reported here, Met Jonah told me... in person...That the OCA has not yet released him. He said he had no idea why but Pat. Kyrill has made his displeasure known to the OCA Synod and has asked them to finish the process ASAP.

 

Yes that's true.  +Jonah was saying before that they were releasing him because he thought the OCA would finalize the paperwork shortly.  I know he was really hoping it was all over and done then, I hope for his sake it will be soon.
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« Reply #1081 on: July 22, 2014, 10:51:36 PM »

Is Metropolitan Jonah OK with you posting this information in a public setting?

As of a few weeks ago, as I reported here, Met Jonah told me... in person...That the OCA has not yet released him. He said he had no idea why but Pat. Kyrill has made his displeasure known to the OCA Synod and has asked them to finish the process ASAP.

 
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« Reply #1082 on: July 22, 2014, 11:12:18 PM »

Is Metropolitan Jonah OK with you posting this information in a public setting?

As of a few weeks ago, as I reported here, Met Jonah told me... in person...That the OCA has not yet released him. He said he had no idea why but Pat. Kyrill has made his displeasure known to the OCA Synod and has asked them to finish the process ASAP.

 

"Marc 1152" has already reported within this thread that he asked Metropolitan Jonah if he would mind if he shared the information, and he agreed to allowing such.
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« Reply #1083 on: Yesterday at 11:52:44 PM »


I don't think anyone would have come out smelling like a rose, at that point.

If he had punished Met. Herman....he would have been unforgiving...and what kind of Christian is that?

If he didn't punish him...again...he would be a bad leader, etc.

It was a terrible time to be elected to that position.


+1

And what kind of beans would +Herman have spilled... ? And I will give you a hint, it didn't have to be financial. He could have destroyed the OCA for all practical purposes. It was Met Jonah's responsibility to not let that happen.

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way. You of all people are not implying that Metropolitan Jonah participated in any kind of a cover-up?

It's not a cover up. It is a decision not to let the thing go on and on and on and back +Herman into a corner.

And I quite see your point. But I wonder, if another Hierarch had "not gotten to the bottom of things" and then communicated everything that was discovered, if people would be so understanding as you? From some peoples' (and we've seen it on this forum) pov, "a decision not to let the thing go on and on" amounts to a cover-up.

That's an executive decision that should only be made by someone with full information. Dragging Met Herman off to prison and the divisiveness it would have engendered may not have been the way to go.



I am mostly out of reach right now... But had to say something before you all get too far off on this.  Metropolitan Jonah did not really decide to let +Herman or anyone go.  Kondratick was defrocked and +Herman retired before +Jonah became a bishop.  The SIC report said +Herman should "resign, retire, or be deposed" and that was accomplished with +Herman's retirement.  There was nothing more to do to either of them within the church.  

As for legal matters, the OCA gave all the info on the financial scandal to the FBI and the Nassau Co DA who both investigated, nothing came of it.  +Jonah also carried forward the OCA's counter suit of the Kondraticks, as the Kondraticks were suing the OCA.  That was settled in 2010 for $250,000 for the Kondraticks.  

So it is simply not true to say it was let go or that +Jonah was the reason.

1.  Met Jonah was a bishop for 11 days, not two months before being consecrated.
2. Met Jonah did indeed preside over disciplinary action towards Met Herman.

Met Herman was prohibited from entering St. Tikhon Monastery Church for services, nor was he permitted to wear a white Klobuk.  His serving/attendance at services  was much more restircted than Met. Jonah's is now.  These restrictions were lifted only after Met Jonah resigned.  (There is a little what comes around goes around - earlier Met Theodosius and Met (then bishop) Herman enforced a policy of only the ruling Met wearing a white klobuk against Met Vladimir wearing a white klobuk at an All-American Council.)

3.  I do not believe that any investigation implicated Met Herman as personally profiting from the mortgages at St Tikhon monastery.
4.  As I recall the reports do implicate in Met Herman in knowledge of the financial irregularities, and a failure to act on that knowledge, rather than himself stealing.
5.  Those who were directly accused of misusung funds would have to answer where the money went.  They have not done so, or rather, he Bob Kondratick, formerly protopresbyter and chancellor, has not done so.
6.  The OCA SIC in 2008 tracked down as much as could be tracked down without subpoena powers.
7.  The result of the SIC in 2008 gives a picture of the patterns of financial irregularities that is still rather clear, despite gaps in where every dollar went.  It seemed to me reading the SIC report in 2008 that the system was set up to obfuscate where money went rather than to document it.
8.  The Kondraticks sued the OCA.  The 2008 AAC discussed this and there was no support at that juncture for just settling.  (which did eventually happen).  This and the Met Council tied the OCA admin to go forward with the counter suit
9.  It is inexact and therefore confusing to speak of cronies in general.
10.  Rather, it should be said that Met Jonah took as one of his chief advisers Archpriest Joseph Fester, who was implicated as being in Kondtratick's inner circle by the SIC investigation, and former "right hand man" of Kondratick in Syosset.

"implicated as part of the inner circle" That is rather vague.  Events latter show that he was indeed still a Kondratick loyalist, in addition to having won Met. Jonah ear and confidence.  During Met. Jonah's time as Met.  he did try to get the Synod to re-instate Kondratick as a priest.  Also, Fr Fester was able to convince Abp Dmitri and then Met Jonah to allow Kondratick as a defrocked priest to remain as administrator of Holy Spirit Church in Venice Fl, collecting a salary and thus legally entitled to continue to participate in the pension plan.  (He was able to do this long enough to get full pension benefits - a rare thing for a defrocked clergyman!)

It documented that Fr Fester was "directing" the pro-Jonah push back in 2011 including providing the "info" for OCATruth, and Fr Fester was trying to pull together alliances and positions from several hierarchs.  His tactics failed and hurt himself, Met Jonah, and the whole OCA.

One of the most shocking elements of this part of the saga is that it is widely believed, by the Holy Synod, the OCA legal team, and the Met Council that Met Jonah was passing confidential legal documents  related to the Kondratick lawsuit to Fr Fester who then passed them to Kondratick and his attorney.  I have been told this by hierarchs and clergy members of the Met Council, who further claim to believe this based on hard evidence.

In 2008, at the All American Council, the OCA euphorically rallied around Met Jonah.  I would not call it threw him under the bus - he was at a high point of popularity and influence within the OCA and beyond.  It would be understandable that he would have a steep learning curve.  It would be understandable that he would make some mistakes - we all do.  It would be understandable that he was not an administrator.  It is not understandable to me that he would do a 180 from the speech that got him elected and put all his trust in those that he so condemned (as rapists!) in the speech.  And that he would trust those parties to the point of alienating himself from those that were in place to help him.  

Someone rather recently on this thread said that the accusation against him was "being a poor administrator".  Maybe that's how it looked in early 2011. By 2012, and certainly 2014, it is simply not accurate to say that the accusation against Met Jonah was simply poor administrative skills.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:59:28 PM by Jeffrey » Logged
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« Reply #1084 on: Today at 12:48:15 AM »

Interesting minutes from the ROCOR Council of Bishops http://byztex.blogspot.com/2014/07/rocor-synodal-notes-packed-with.html

"The Council confirmed the Synod of Bishops’ decision to receive His Grace Bishop Nikolai (Soraich), former Bishop of Alaska of the Orthodox Church in America, as a retired bishop. Deliberating on the request to receive His Eminence Metropolitan Jonah, former Primate of the OCA, the Council expressed the willingness to receive him as a retired bishop on condition that he receive a canonical release. Should future requests for the reception of bishops from other Local Orthodox Churches be received, the President of the Synod of Bishops will first request the opinions of all the members of the Council of Bishops of ROCOR, and then send a corresponding request to His Holiness the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia for blessing."

A few things stand out. First, ROCOR will indeed accept +Jonah--as a retired bishop. Second, a canonical release has not yet been issued by the OCA (as of the meeting that took place June 24-30, 2014). Finally, we do not know why (and I really do not wish to speculate) but the protocol has been tightened for future requests for reception of bishops, requiring coordination with all of the members of the Council of Bishops and a blessing from the Patriarch of Moscow.

Please folks, I am trying to do nothing more than to document my observations. This post is not meant to be any sort of criticism. Period.

More stood out to me.

1  ROCOR refers to Met Jonah as "his Eminence" not not his "Beatitude".  ("the request to receive His Eminence Metropolitan Jonah, former Primate of the OCA,"; the Russian version has the same downgrade:  “Высокопреосвященнейшего митрополита Ионы, бывшего Предстоятеля Православной Церкви в Америке,”

I have heard from reliable sources that ROCOR has it's own stipulations.  This announcement, combined with the fact that Met Hilarion was presiding in first place last time Met Jonah concelebrated with him at Jordanville, causes me to suspect that ROCOR does not wish Met Jonah to still have his current rank if received into ROCOR. 

I understand the desire not to speculate, but it is clear that the new protocol was not followed (or else why insist on making the new protocol and insist on publishing it?). 

BTW in the spring on this thread I recall someone alleging that the ROCOR was managing to keep the status top secret - that was not true.  At that time I hear well placed ROCOR folk speaking plainly that Met Hilarion had written two letters to the OCA Synod requesting both Bp Nikolai and Met Jonah.  That both were controversial in ROCOR was part of that discussion.

It is very clear that the whole ROCOR bishop's Council (their supreme authority) wants to be consulted and come to consensus before either Moscow is involved or letters are written to other jurisdictions.

The most reasonable word to describe ROCOR towards Met Jonah is the word that they themselves use - they are willing to receive him.
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« Reply #1085 on: Today at 01:35:37 AM »

As of a few weeks ago, as I reported here, Met Jonah told me... in person...That the OCA has not yet released him. He said he had no idea why but Pat. Kyrill has made his displeasure known to the OCA Synod and has asked them to finish the process ASAP.

 

Yes that's true.  +Jonah was saying before that they were releasing him because he thought the OCA would finalize the paperwork shortly.  I know he was really hoping it was all over and done then, I hope for his sake it will be soon.

It is hard to make sense of various stories we are getting.  

You know, over on Monomakhos, an poster who often claims "insider knowledge" of things, with definite slant both pro-Met Jonah and anti-OCA posted this:

http://www.monomakhos.com/archbishop-joseph-elected-metropolitan-of-all-north-america/#comment-79230

"James says:
July 12, 2014 at 11:17 am
Helga, dear Helga.

I think it is time to give the +Jonah thing a rest. The dust has all but settled for him and the OCA.

He is not going to ever be released to ROCOR not unless and until the OCA gives him a clean and total release without stipulations. Patriarch Kirill ruled on this last week and his ruling is final. For him, the very last straw was the attempt for the OCA, including the Metropolitan Council, to be part of some sort of bilateral negotiation about +Jonah’s release to ROCOR.

ROCOR submitted this ridiculous demand by the OCA to Moscow and the Patriarch said, “No. We don’t negotiate episcopal release with stipulations.”

So, in the end, this may have been the cynical game plan of the OCA all along, to drag their feet, to keep adding new stipulations to Jonah’s release, knowing full well that in the end, Moscow would say no, not because they don’t want him but because the OCA really wasn’t interested in releasing him.

To wit, again, the OCA has lost more credibility with Moscow, of which there is precious little left.

So it appears that +Jonah will continue to be in the OCA and for now, spend most of his time at ROCOR venues, of course and until the OCA again tries to tighten their leash on him and stop him from even doing that.

Time to close the chapter on this and move on to other matters."

he continued to elaborate his point:

http://www.monomakhos.com/archbishop-joseph-elected-metropolitan-of-all-north-america/#comment-79429

"James says:
July 16, 2014 at 7:50 am
Dan Fall,

Stipulations. Let’s see, how about, Jonah can’t be within 50 miles of DC nor can he start a monastery in Texas, you know Dan, very Christian stipulations like that. I don’t know where you have been Dan Fall, theses stipulations have been reported for many months. There are more stipulations that Jonah is expected to agree to before he would be released to the ROCOR by the OCA but those would require him to lie about his “retirement” thus he refused to accept those.

To wit, Pat. Kirill wrote in his own hand across the OCA stipulations communicated to him, NYET!!!

His Holiness is not mad at Jonah, rather he is totally fed up with the OCA. His Holiness has no problem with Jonah serving at St. John’s Cathedral in DC or accepting invitations from ROCOR.

So, again, the OCA has shot itself in the foot because of their vengeful stupidity and Moscow is even more determined to take full advantage of the ROCOR being their missionary arm in the USA. Bad news again for the OCA.

I hope this helps you to better understand the situation."

Collete Kalvesmaki, a noted DC supporter of Met. Jonah wrote this in response:

http://www.monomakhos.com/archbishop-joseph-elected-metropolitan-of-all-north-america/#comment-79611

"colette says:
July 18, 2014 at 8:03 am
I agree with you Misha, but ROCOR wants Jonah, it’s Russia who is horn to horn with the OCA. It is an unbalanced chess game. I have no idea what the OCA is thinking. It seems like there are grudges and fears and that’s what they are running on. Wouldn’t it be pleasant and considerate, Christian and orderly if they just said “ok, you want him you can have him”. We have to see what the next card plays . . . . it’s not over."

Well for a long time on this thread we have been told that the Patriarch of Moscow will push this through, and that Met. Jonah is going to comply with all stipulations and the OCA is holding things up.

These things do not add up.

I suggest no one has more incentive to get this behind them than the OCA admin.

I see an implication that the Moscow Patriarchate would find stipulations to releases out of the ordinary.  As has been pointed out on this thread, bishop releases themselves are out of the ordinary.  Also, the stipulations about not living in DC or Texas have been known for some time.  I do not believe that the Patriarch waited until this July to object.  Especially since, as Fr Giryus pointed out the Patriarchate itself restricts where retired bishops may live.  (Mospat published sometime in the past 3 years a Synodal decision blanket restricting all retired bishops to certain clearly listed larger dioceses.  It seems that they want retired bishops in places like Moscow where there are several auxiliaries and other retired bishops so that a retired bishop does not - even unintentionally - compete with the ruling bishop).

It has also been suggested by supporters of Met Jonah that the OCA will no longer provide a stipend to Met Jonah if he leaves the OCA.  I think this is correct, and also to be expected.

I do not think that the OCA admin wants to negotiate stipulations, certainly not with Moscow.  They want Met Jonah to comply with them. (You can see that's true whether or not you think the stipulations are fair.) It is even more unlikely that the OCA Holy Synod would actually desire to have the Metropolitan Council negotiating with Moscow.  What would the OCA get out of having to negotiate these stipulations with a much more powerful body?

How to make sense of "James" revelation, if it is true at all?

I think that Patriarch Kyrill is indeed willing to see Met Jonah go to ROCOR, and at this point may even regard that is a desirable outcome.  I do not think that would be his first choice, however.  

I do not think that ROCOR has a desire to negotiate stipulations with the OCA.  

Even in James' telling it is Met Jonah that is refusing certain stipulations.  

Perhaps this is where the Met Council comes in - the Met Council in Spring 2013 minutes when they agreed to budget a stipend for Met Jonah added this to the minutes "To recommend that the Holy Synod consider the impact on this package should Metropolitan Jonah leave the OCA and that general release and non-disparagement clauses be included in the agreement."  See here, page 6:
https://oca.org/cdn/PDFs/metropolitancouncil/2013/spring-metcouncil/spring13mcdraftminutes.pdf

So perhaps Met Jonah still wishes to collect an OCA stipend while in ROCOR; or he does not wish to agree to "non-disparagement clauses". Or both. I can't see any other reason for a hint of Metropolitan Council involvement.  In addition, perhaps Met. Jonah is not yet ready or willing to leave DC.  

If Met Jonah is rejecting stipulation(s), it is then in his interest to have Moscow go to bat for him. Who else has a motive to see the powerful Moscow Patriarchate negotiating stipulations with the OCA?  

If Moscow wishes they can communicate quite clearly, and if they want an easier release I don't think "letting the dust settle" and have it be "all over" as "James" says would be their way to express support.  It seems to me that if this whole story has anything to it all, it was Pat. Kyrill refusing to go to bat against the stipulations.  That means that the OCA could drop the stipulations and release Jonah or that Met Jonah could comply with the stipulations and get his release.  It could also mean that Met Jonah and the OCA will negotiate without ROCOR or Moscow.  But the story as "James" posted it was so spun as to cease making sense.

and BTW for up to date Moscow OCA relations:

https://mospat.ru/en/2014/07/18/news105706/

https://mospat.ru/en/2014/07/19/news105759/

http://mospatusa.com/news_140721_1.html

http://www.russianorthodoxchurch.ws/synod/eng2014/20140721_enstsergiusnyc.html
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« Reply #1086 on: Today at 01:52:42 AM »

This is a linc. from a website I read.
Byzantine, Texas: Met. Jonah released to ROCOR, celebrates ...
byztex.blogspot.com/2014/03/met-jonah-released-to-rocor...   Cached
Mar 31, 2014 · ... 2014. Met. Jonah released to ROCOR, celebrates historic Liturgy. It should also be noted that Metropolitan Jonah has been released to ROCOR.


Anyone can put anything on the internet and claim it's true.  What is needed to establish a release is actual documents exchanged between Synods following the proper procedure, with protocol numbers, signatures and seals, etc.    
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« Reply #1087 on: Today at 09:53:40 AM »


I don't think anyone would have come out smelling like a rose, at that point.

If he had punished Met. Herman....he would have been unforgiving...and what kind of Christian is that?

If he didn't punish him...again...he would be a bad leader, etc.

It was a terrible time to be elected to that position.


+1

And what kind of beans would +Herman have spilled... ? And I will give you a hint, it didn't have to be financial. He could have destroyed the OCA for all practical purposes. It was Met Jonah's responsibility to not let that happen.

I'm sure you didn't mean it this way. You of all people are not implying that Metropolitan Jonah participated in any kind of a cover-up?

It's not a cover up. It is a decision not to let the thing go on and on and on and back +Herman into a corner.

And I quite see your point. But I wonder, if another Hierarch had "not gotten to the bottom of things" and then communicated everything that was discovered, if people would be so understanding as you? From some peoples' (and we've seen it on this forum) pov, "a decision not to let the thing go on and on" amounts to a cover-up.

That's an executive decision that should only be made by someone with full information. Dragging Met Herman off to prison and the divisiveness it would have engendered may not have been the way to go.



I am mostly out of reach right now... But had to say something before you all get too far off on this.  Metropolitan Jonah did not really decide to let +Herman or anyone go.  Kondratick was defrocked and +Herman retired before +Jonah became a bishop.  The SIC report said +Herman should "resign, retire, or be deposed" and that was accomplished with +Herman's retirement.  There was nothing more to do to either of them within the church.  

As for legal matters, the OCA gave all the info on the financial scandal to the FBI and the Nassau Co DA who both investigated, nothing came of it.  +Jonah also carried forward the OCA's counter suit of the Kondraticks, as the Kondraticks were suing the OCA.  That was settled in 2010 for $250,000 for the Kondraticks.  

So it is simply not true to say it was let go or that +Jonah was the reason.

1.  Met Jonah was a bishop for 11 days, not two months before being consecrated.
2. Met Jonah did indeed preside over disciplinary action towards Met Herman.

Met Herman was prohibited from entering St. Tikhon Monastery Church for services, nor was he permitted to wear a white Klobuk.  His serving/attendance at services  was much more restircted than Met. Jonah's is now.  These restrictions were lifted only after Met Jonah resigned.  (There is a little what comes around goes around - earlier Met Theodosius and Met (then bishop) Herman enforced a policy of only the ruling Met wearing a white klobuk against Met Vladimir wearing a white klobuk at an All-American Council.)

3.  I do not believe that any investigation implicated Met Herman as personally profiting from the mortgages at St Tikhon monastery.
4.  As I recall the reports do implicate in Met Herman in knowledge of the financial irregularities, and a failure to act on that knowledge, rather than himself stealing.
5.  Those who were directly accused of misusung funds would have to answer where the money went.  They have not done so, or rather, he Bob Kondratick, formerly protopresbyter and chancellor, has not done so.
6.  The OCA SIC in 2008 tracked down as much as could be tracked down without subpoena powers.
7.  The result of the SIC in 2008 gives a picture of the patterns of financial irregularities that is still rather clear, despite gaps in where every dollar went.  It seemed to me reading the SIC report in 2008 that the system was set up to obfuscate where money went rather than to document it.
8.  The Kondraticks sued the OCA.  The 2008 AAC discussed this and there was no support at that juncture for just settling.  (which did eventually happen).  This and the Met Council tied the OCA admin to go forward with the counter suit
9.  It is inexact and therefore confusing to speak of cronies in general.
10.  Rather, it should be said that Met Jonah took as one of his chief advisers Archpriest Joseph Fester, who was implicated as being in Kondtratick's inner circle by the SIC investigation, and former "right hand man" of Kondratick in Syosset.

"implicated as part of the inner circle" That is rather vague.  Events latter show that he was indeed still a Kondratick loyalist, in addition to having won Met. Jonah ear and confidence.  During Met. Jonah's time as Met.  he did try to get the Synod to re-instate Kondratick as a priest.  Also, Fr Fester was able to convince Abp Dmitri and then Met Jonah to allow Kondratick as a defrocked priest to remain as administrator of Holy Spirit Church in Venice Fl, collecting a salary and thus legally entitled to continue to participate in the pension plan.  (He was able to do this long enough to get full pension benefits - a rare thing for a defrocked clergyman!)

It documented that Fr Fester was "directing" the pro-Jonah push back in 2011 including providing the "info" for OCATruth, and Fr Fester was trying to pull together alliances and positions from several hierarchs.  His tactics failed and hurt himself, Met Jonah, and the whole OCA.

One of the most shocking elements of this part of the saga is that it is widely believed, by the Holy Synod, the OCA legal team, and the Met Council that Met Jonah was passing confidential legal documents  related to the Kondratick lawsuit to Fr Fester who then passed them to Kondratick and his attorney.  I have been told this by hierarchs and clergy members of the Met Council, who further claim to believe this based on hard evidence.

In 2008, at the All American Council, the OCA euphorically rallied around Met Jonah.  I would not call it threw him under the bus - he was at a high point of popularity and influence within the OCA and beyond.  It would be understandable that he would have a steep learning curve.  It would be understandable that he would make some mistakes - we all do.  It would be understandable that he was not an administrator.  It is not understandable to me that he would do a 180 from the speech that got him elected and put all his trust in those that he so condemned (as rapists!) in the speech.  And that he would trust those parties to the point of alienating himself from those that were in place to help him.  

Someone rather recently on this thread said that the accusation against him was "being a poor administrator".  Maybe that's how it looked in early 2011. By 2012, and certainly 2014, it is simply not accurate to say that the accusation against Met Jonah was simply poor administrative skills.


There is considerable evidence that Met Herman stole money personally. I have heard details from both his personal secretary of five years and the lay prosecutor of  Kondratick.

Even at best when four million dollars disappears into thin air, when the orphans and widows fund is emptied he would have noticed.Not should have, would have.

I heard him questioned directly about this. He visited St. Mark to take questions about the scandal ( to his credit). A Lawyer in the Parish questioned him closely. He asked +Herman to explain how no one noticed that four million dollars was no longer there ( and later another three million). He just said he didnt know. The lawyer kept pressing.. He just said he didnt know... +Herman has a degree in business.

Then his former secretary stood up. She is the most quiet, pious woman I know. She was furious and asked him to explain where he got the money to buy his deacon A BOAT!!!  He flipped and said it was improper to ask about that.

Then he ended with a diatribe saying that when he recently visited Bulgaria his fellow Bishops urged him to simply expel all dissenters from the OCA.

We all looked at each other in jaw dropping amazement... I mumbled to the people around me "Welcome to America Vlladica"
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« Reply #1088 on: Today at 10:49:37 AM »

Re: Jeffrey's reply post 1085:  This all points out to what to the rest of us without 'skin' in the game have been saying. Metropolitan Jonah appears not to be obedient as he is required to be as a monk, a priest and a bishop to the Church under whose omophorion he belongs and to whom he has sworn his oath. Given all of the bitter history here, if the stipulations outlined by some as representing the OCA's position are correct, they appear to be reasonable. If Metropolitan Jonah and the Church of Russia (of which ROCOR is a part) can not abide by them, perhaps those of you who are his 'supporters' should prayerfully rethink your position.

I am sixty and born into the church and into a family of clergy. One thing that was impressed upon me and my family by my father was that disorder and chaos in the church is destructive and contrary to the best interests of the church. We were taught that one must put self interest aside for the greater good of the Church, no matter how difficult and painful that may be from a personal point of view. There is no heresy here at play, there is nothing to warrant a unilateral release of the priest/bishop in question.

If nothing else, the twentieth century histories of the OCA, the ACROD, the ROCOR, the Russian Patriarchal parishes and the UOC-USA (all interrelated by lineage and history) teach us that there have been enough 'rouge' bishops, "floating" clergy, "independent minded" parishes and congregationalist laity that sowed dissension, disorder and schisms for decades among our jurisdictions, parishes and our very families. There is simply no need for more division and competition.

All of this internet chatter does nothing except perpetuate the errors of the past one hundred plus years.
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« Reply #1089 on: Today at 11:07:33 AM »

Re: Jeffrey's reply post 1085:  This all points out to what to the rest of us without 'skin' in the game have been saying. Metropolitan Jonah appears not to be obedient as he is required to be as a monk, a priest and a bishop to the Church under whose omophorion he belongs and to whom he has sworn his oath. Given all of the bitter history here, if the stipulations outlined by some as representing the OCA's position are correct, they appear to be reasonable. If Metropolitan Jonah and the Church of Russia (of which ROCOR is a part) can not abide by them, perhaps those of you who are his 'supporters' should prayerfully rethink your position.

I am sixty and born into the church and into a family of clergy. One thing that was impressed upon me and my family by my father was that disorder and chaos in the church is destructive and contrary to the best interests of the church. We were taught that one must put self interest aside for the greater good of the Church, no matter how difficult and painful that may be from a personal point of view. There is no heresy here at play, there is nothing to warrant a unilateral release of the priest/bishop in question.

If nothing else, the twentieth century histories of the OCA, the ACROD, the ROCOR, the Russian Patriarchal parishes and the UOC-USA (all interrelated by lineage and history) teach us that there have been enough 'rouge' bishops, "floating" clergy, "independent minded" parishes and congregationalist laity that sowed dissension, disorder and schisms for decades among our jurisdictions, parishes and our very families. There is simply no need for more division and competition.

All of this internet chatter does nothing except perpetuate the errors of the past one hundred plus years.

+1

As I pointed to a page or two back, until there is an official announcement of a transfer, then everything is status quo.  No need for any further discussion.
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katherineofdixie
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« Reply #1090 on: Today at 11:10:10 AM »

If nothing else, the twentieth century histories of the OCA, the ACROD, the ROCOR, the Russian Patriarchal parishes and the UOC-USA (all interrelated by lineage and history) teach us that there have been enough 'rouge' bishops, "floating" clergy, "independent minded" parishes and congregationalist laity that sowed dissension, disorder and schisms for decades among our jurisdictions, parishes and our very families. There is simply no need for more division and competition.

All of this internet chatter does nothing except perpetuate the errors of the past one hundred plus years.

Amen! Preach it, brother!
 Smiley
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« Reply #1091 on: Today at 11:12:54 AM »

Hey guys,

I just want to interject and talk a bit about appropriate clerical titles.  It has come to my attention, and I'm guilty of this as well, that using a "+" sign before a bishop's name is not really appropriate for any non-bishop to use.  Bishops, Metropolitans, Patriarchs may use the "+" sign as a sign of humility for themselves.  Sometimes, also the "+" sign is used for those in the episcopal ranks who are deceased, but even then, the "+" sign is on the date of departure from the world, not on their name.

Therefore, on behalf of the mod team, we would ask kindly to continue to use proper titles of clergy.  So in this case, you should always write "Metropolitan Jonah".  Understandably, for brevity's sake, if you like to abbreviate, you can say "Met. Jonah", or "HE" for "His Eminence" so long as the context is obvious.

Carry on!

Mina
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #1092 on: Today at 11:47:10 AM »

Sorry, just a tiny correction. I was told, the honorific for Metropolitan Jonah was "His Beatitude", so I suppose "HB" can be used.

Mina
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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