Author Topic: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?  (Read 13013 times)

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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #180 on: July 15, 2016, 11:55:15 AM »

I think "tone-deaf campaigning" has a lot to do whether the campaign is for 'internal' or 'external' audiences.  It is essential for us to remember that sometimes what is said to us really isn't meant for us.


I'm not so sure... I think the tone-deafness runs incredibly deep in that subculture. e.g., http://www.thomasnelson.com/bartholomew

What a curious list...


    Pope Francis
    Pope Benedict XVI
    Rowan Williams
    Rabbi David Rosen
    George Stephanopoulos
    Jane Goodall
    Joe Biden, Jr.
    Al Gore, Jr.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #181 on: July 15, 2016, 12:21:18 PM »
Forgive me for my ignorance, but HAS the EP abused his powers over the Church? Is it really turning into papism?
Could I be shown some examples of that?

No, not really. I mean some of his claims to authority and the jurisdiction tiff between it and Moscow might raise some eyebrows, but beyond that nothing really. What's most concerning are the "binding" claims that the EP has put forth against those who won't attend Crete. That, and the strange theology put forth by his presumed successor.

I'd like to answer those who blames EP for "papism"... In my opinion, Patriarch Bartholomew just want Orthodox Church to be strong. His only goal is Unity.  We should be able to discuss and solve any controversial issues in order to prevent schisms.
And Metropolitan Elpidophoros is not an enemy of Moscow patriarchate. He may had written things they didn't like, but he is concerned of maintaining peaceful relations with them. Even friends may have different opinions about the same thing! As it seems to me, there are other people who deliberately escalate conflict with the ROC. For example, Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) is among those who have asked HAH to grant Autocephaly to the Ukrainian Church. And even Greek media write about this: http://www.paron.gr/v3/new.php?id=96407&colid=37&catid=40&dt=2016-07-03

Fr. Kaisarios, I do think a lot of Orthodox share your sense of wanting to look to the future after the recent problems Patriarch Bartholomew's actions have caused of late: from the disastrous interference in the Czech and Slovak Church, to the mishandling of the Antioch/Jerusalem conflict, to the Cretan Convention... there are other examples as well.

While I think that Met. Elpidophoros' unfortunate essay will not wash away so easily without a rather full-mouthed apology, I think there is an overall need within the Church to have less of a reliance on 'super-star' hierarchs and more emphasis on closer inter-personal relations.  It would be good if Constantinople and Moscow (as well as the other Autocephalous Churches) exchanged clergy for educational opportunities.

There are other projects which could help break down the walls of regional and perhaps linguistical isolation that have developed.
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Offline Gunnarr

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #182 on: July 19, 2016, 02:47:59 AM »
I wish Met. Seraphim of Piareus could become the next Patriarch of Constantinople, since he actually sounds like a Patriarch of old. But the chances are probably greater that Pope Francis would himself convert to Orthodoxy.

Then he could challenge Pope Francis to a trial of Holy Water. Whose will smell stale and foul!? Instead of the roman catholic bishop of Athens or whoever he was challenging. IT could be televised, just imagine what fun!

but more seriously, I think only way to fix phanar problem is not electing someone who is already a bishop, or a priest, or even wants to be either. Some unknown monk of athos. Or if not wanting to be so trusting in Holy Spirit, just elect a well respected abbot. Don't elect one of the yes-men titular bishops. The Phanar Holy Synod has many times been completely purged of all opposition and divergence of opinion, last most notable from the time of Patriarch Athenagoras.

Just a fantasy. Never going to happen of course. Church politics prevents it in todays world

... this reminds me, of what happened during the Fourth Crusade and there was no Emperor. The people went to Hagia Sophia and tried to choose a new emperor. Many were proposed, and certainly not all had any real dynastic heritage. Some didn't even want to be emperor! (who would, with the Latins besieging the city?)


« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 02:51:53 AM by Gunnarr »
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Offline Photinia

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #183 on: July 25, 2016, 06:47:24 AM »
Thanks for your replies! They were very valuable and useful for me.

By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

 But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

Offline Apostolos

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #184 on: July 25, 2016, 08:33:47 AM »
I wish Met. Seraphim of Piareus could become the next Patriarch of Constantinople, since he actually sounds like a Patriarch of old. But the chances are probably greater that Pope Francis would himself convert to Orthodoxy.
He can't he's not eligible to run because he's not a Turkish citizen (being a Turkish citizen is prerequisite for eligibility for the EP's position according to Turkish law, and I doubt Turkish authorities would ever consider granting him Turkish citizenship given his positions in various issues)
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #185 on: July 25, 2016, 01:23:20 PM »
By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

You do realize OC.net is not an official organ of the Church of Constantinople, right? And that none of the vivid young men in the thread is a spokesman for HAH?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

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Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Samn!

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #186 on: July 25, 2016, 07:40:20 PM »
Thanks for your replies! They were very valuable and useful for me.

By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

 But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

Met Zizioulas is getting on in years. As for why Met Getcha was given that position, it's because he was basically run out of Paris on a rail. If you want the gory details: http://situationarcheveche.blogspot.com/

Offline Daniel2:47

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #187 on: July 26, 2016, 03:13:14 AM »
But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

An outsiders perspective - as I see it, a successful EP candidate would:

1) Have good relations with the Russians
2) Abandon any notion of "first without equals" or other Papal-sounding ideology and instead recognise that conciliatory means that no patriarch or bishop is without equal.
3) Focus on evangelism and mission in non-Orthodox countries rather than fruitless ecumenism

If it was only one of these, the first would probably be the most beneficial in healing the divide in Orthodoxy and hopefully the other two would flow from there

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #188 on: July 26, 2016, 03:24:32 AM »
I am sure most leaders of every stripe would be quick to ask you, How does one "have good relations with the Russians"?

Your second point is a red herring. Precedent is as old as Tradition and is entirely Orthodox. If His Holiness of Moscow bridles at the yoke of the ancient sees, that is all that could be un-Orthodox here.

"Fruitless ecumenism" &c. ... Well, what is the spirit of Evangelism you have in mind that seeks Christians for Orthodoxy, but not from the largest population of Christians in the world, the Apostolic churches? There's a vexing contradiction of mind in your third point, and not a little wishful thinking -- some Protestant idea of "fruitful" missions where tens of thousands flock to the faith, from the pure power of our message being so obviously better than others'. Again, if there really is some such magic that would work on the average man, why would it not work on the Apostolic churches, our historical siblings? There is a contradiction here.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Photinia

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #189 on: July 26, 2016, 06:24:53 AM »
He can't he's not eligible to run because he's not a Turkish citizen (being a Turkish citizen is prerequisite for eligibility for the EP's position according to Turkish law, and I doubt Turkish authorities would ever consider granting him Turkish citizenship given his positions in various issues)

Oh, it's new for me! Could you explain, what are these issues?

Offline Photinia

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #190 on: July 26, 2016, 06:27:44 AM »
By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

You do realize OC.net is not an official organ of the Church of Constantinople, right? And that none of the vivid young men in the thread is a spokesman for HAH?

Yes, of course, I do  :)

Offline Photinia

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #191 on: July 26, 2016, 06:29:47 AM »
Thanks for your replies! They were very valuable and useful for me.

By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

 But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

Met Zizioulas is getting on in years. As for why Met Getcha was given that position, it's because he was basically run out of Paris on a rail. If you want the gory details: http://situationarcheveche.blogspot.com/

Thank you for the link!

Offline Photinia

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #192 on: July 26, 2016, 07:27:25 AM »
Thanks for your replies! They were very valuable and useful for me.

By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

 But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

Met Zizioulas is getting on in years. As for why Met Getcha was given that position, it's because he was basically run out of Paris on a rail. If you want the gory details: http://situationarcheveche.blogspot.com/

However, Met Getcha was removed fro the office of Exarch for Orthodox Parishes of Russian Tradition in Western Europe back in November 2015 and then represented EP at the WCC...

Offline Daniel2:47

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #193 on: July 26, 2016, 07:41:18 AM »
I am sure most leaders of every stripe would be quick to ask you, How does one "have good relations with the Russians"?

What I was referring to was a personal friendship with some in the Russian hierarchy would almost certainly go a way to alleviating some of the mistrust between Moscow and Constantinople.


Your second point is a red herring. Precedent is as old as Tradition and is entirely Orthodox. If His Holiness of Moscow bridles at the yoke of the ancient sees, that is all that could be un-Orthodox here.

Funny, I didn't realise that Constantinople was around in 33AD... or 325AD for that matter. Hmm. Even the fact that the "primacy of honour" switched from Rome to Constantinople would seem to prove that these things are not fixed. At the end of the day the Orthodox church is not the Catholic church - and Constantinople is not the Vatican (although presiding over a tiny flock and issuing proclamations of its own self-importance certainly has similarities to Rome pre-schism)...

"Fruitless ecumenism" &c. ... Well, what is the spirit of Evangelism you have in mind that seeks Christians for Orthodoxy, but not from the largest population of Christians in the world, the Apostolic churches? There's a vexing contradiction of mind in your third point, and not a little wishful thinking -- some Protestant idea of "fruitful" missions where tens of thousands flock to the faith, from the pure power of our message being so obviously better than others'. Again, if there really is some such magic that would work on the average man, why would it not work on the Apostolic churches, our historical siblings? There is a contradiction here.

The unfortunate reality is that the Catholics are increasingly going down a liberal road and a false ecumenism from the top down is completely the wrong way for true unity between Christians. The Anglicans are already well down this road (at least the CofE and Episcopalian churches). The Oriental Orthodox, on the other hand, are very close to the Eastern Orthodox so ecumenical dialogue and unity with them appears possible. For the Catholics and Anglicans, unity seems further away than ever, if their trajectories are anything to go by.

Offline wgw

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #194 on: July 26, 2016, 08:45:15 AM »
One thing seems certain from this thread: since the presence of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Istanbul does not really benefit the Eastern Orthodox communion, since the Turks will not let us use Hagia Sophia, and St. George is valuable only because the three holy hierarchs are interred there (a disastrous mistake on the part of the church; they were safely in Roman cuatody; moving them into Turkey, a country whose Antiquities Law has been frequently used to confiscate and then in some cases destroy historical Orthodox material), it seems that having the Ecumenical Patriarch in Turkey imposes a constraint on the Church of Constantinople which it is in my view not worth having, that being, is this man a Turkish citizen, or if not, will they grant him Turkish citizenship?

I think it would be much better for the Orthodox community if the actual seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate were to be moved to the Great Lavra on Mount Athos, or to Thessaloniki.   This is not uncanonical; there exists a direct precedent in that the Patriarch of Antioch has resided in Damascus for a few centuries, and during the decline of the Byzantine Empire, there were times when the Parriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem were members of the Imperial Court in Constantinople.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #195 on: July 26, 2016, 12:39:58 PM »
By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

You do realize OC.net is not an official organ of the Church of Constantinople, right? And that none of the vivid young men in the thread is a spokesman for HAH?

Yes, of course, I do  :)

Then it's very hard to understand why you are bringing us these questions.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #196 on: July 26, 2016, 12:58:09 PM »
By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

You do realize OC.net is not an official organ of the Church of Constantinople, right? And that none of the vivid young men in the thread is a spokesman for HAH?

Yes, of course, I do  :)

Then it's very hard to understand why you are bringing us these questions.


Wait....suddenly we deal only with known facts and official statements here?  No more rampant 'analysis' by armchair theologians and church historians?

lets close all the threads then....;)
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Offline mike

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #197 on: July 26, 2016, 01:31:45 PM »
He can't he's not eligible to run because he's not a Turkish citizen (being a Turkish citizen is prerequisite for eligibility for the EP's position according to Turkish law, and I doubt Turkish authorities would ever consider granting him Turkish citizenship given his positions in various issues)

Oh, it's new for me! Could you explain, what are these issues?

I'd say his biggest issue is not being a member of the Church of Constantinople (not to mention, its synod).

I am sure most leaders of every stripe would be quick to ask you, How does one "have good relations with the Russians"?

What I was referring to was a personal friendship with some in the Russian hierarchy would almost certainly go a way to alleviating some of the mistrust between Moscow and Constantinople.

Name one that is. And take into notice the shift from Metr. Alfeyev's MP to Bp. Shevkunov's MP and what can result with that.
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #198 on: July 26, 2016, 06:47:35 PM »
By the way, I've read one more interesting news... Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos replaced another hierarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate Metropolitan of Pergamon John (Zizioulas) in the post of co-chairman of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church:

http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/63851/

But as I remember, the latter was mentioned among the probable Ecumenical patriarch Bartholomew's successors. What do you think? Is there any possibility that this things are somehow interconnected? What was the reason for this change?

You do realize OC.net is not an official organ of the Church of Constantinople, right? And that none of the vivid young men in the thread is a spokesman for HAH?

Yes, of course, I do  :)

Then it's very hard to understand why you are bringing us these questions.


Wait....suddenly we deal only with known facts and official statements here?  No more rampant 'analysis' by armchair theologians and church historians?

lets close all the threads then....;)

Yes, by all means, let us "close" all this kind of thread. Armchair quarter-backing is one thing, faithless rumor-mongering within the Church is entirely another.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #199 on: July 26, 2016, 06:50:44 PM »

I think "tone-deaf campaigning" has a lot to do whether the campaign is for 'internal' or 'external' audiences.  It is essential for us to remember that sometimes what is said to us really isn't meant for us.


I'm not so sure... I think the tone-deafness runs incredibly deep in that subculture. e.g., http://www.thomasnelson.com/bartholomew

What a curious list...


    Pope Francis
    Pope Benedict XVI
    Rowan Williams
    Rabbi David Rosen
    George Stephanopoulos
    Jane Goodall
    Joe Biden, Jr.
    Al Gore, Jr.


And many more.

It's almost as tho the Church is reaching out to key figures in the modern world, even perhaps willing to resume its ancient role as Pastor of people everywhere. "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim 2).
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #200 on: July 26, 2016, 07:37:48 PM »

I think "tone-deaf campaigning" has a lot to do whether the campaign is for 'internal' or 'external' audiences.  It is essential for us to remember that sometimes what is said to us really isn't meant for us.


I'm not so sure... I think the tone-deafness runs incredibly deep in that subculture. e.g., http://www.thomasnelson.com/bartholomew

What a curious list...


    Pope Francis
    Pope Benedict XVI
    Rowan Williams
    Rabbi David Rosen
    George Stephanopoulos
    Jane Goodall
    Joe Biden, Jr.
    Al Gore, Jr.


And many more.

It's almost as tho the Church is reaching out to key figures in the modern world, even perhaps willing to resume its ancient role as Pastor of people everywhere. "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim 2).
Lol! Yes, that is what is going on.  :P
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 07:38:06 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

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Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #201 on: July 26, 2016, 08:51:44 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #202 on: July 27, 2016, 11:30:25 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?
My overseer is my local Metropolitan.  ;)
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline biro

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #203 on: July 28, 2016, 02:15:44 AM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

Then, 20-year-old chanters know everything, as I'm sure he'll tell you.
In a time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #204 on: July 28, 2016, 08:09:54 AM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

Then, 20-year-old chanters know everything, as I'm sure he'll tell you.

Neither of you are making much sense compared to that 20-year-old protopsaltis, but at least your opinions are only silly.   
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Opus118

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #205 on: July 28, 2016, 09:51:14 AM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

Then, 20-year-old chanters know everything, as I'm sure he'll tell you.

Neither of you are making much sense compared to that 20-year-old protopsaltis, but at least your opinions are only silly.   

What does make sense in this particular sub-conversation?

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #206 on: July 28, 2016, 10:51:24 AM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.
Quote
But it had not been in Tess's power - nor is it in anybody's power - to feel the whole truth of golden opinions while it is possible to profit by them. She - and how many more - might have ironically said to God with Saint Augustine, "Thou hast counselled a better course than thou hast permitted."
Thomas Hardy, Tess of the D'Urbervilles

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #207 on: July 28, 2016, 01:41:08 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.

This is a red herring. What I was noting is Antonis' seeming enthusiasm for criticizing the Church of Constantinople, the North American arm of which I believe he works for. I wondered if this insider's view (such as it is) has disillusioned him. If not, his obsession is hard to understand.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #208 on: July 28, 2016, 02:18:37 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.

This is a red herring. What I was noting is Antonis' seeming enthusiasm for criticizing the Church of Constantinople, the North American arm of which I believe he works for. I wondered if this insider's view (such as it is) has disillusioned him. If not, his obsession is hard to understand.
My insider's view, however limited, has certainly colored my views, but I held them before as well. To be frank, I could limit myself to quoting saints--including those the Patriarchate has itself glorified--from the past century to provide a sound view of the institution and its initiatives. I am in good company.
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #209 on: July 28, 2016, 02:31:13 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.

This is a red herring. What I was noting is Antonis' seeming enthusiasm for criticizing the Church of Constantinople, the North American arm of which I believe he works for. I wondered if this insider's view (such as it is) has disillusioned him. If not, his obsession is hard to understand.

Sarcastic remark = seeming enthusiasm. Only in the world of Porter ODoran.



This is a red herring.

The irony of this statement...
"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion." - Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII

“Fools have a habit of believing that everything written by a famous author is admirable. For my part I read only to please myself and like only what suits my taste.” - Lord Pococurante in Candide by Voltaire

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #210 on: July 28, 2016, 02:56:05 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.

This is a red herring. What I was noting is Antonis' seeming enthusiasm for criticizing the Church of Constantinople, the North American arm of which I believe he works for. I wondered if this insider's view (such as it is) has disillusioned him. If not, his obsession is hard to understand.
My insider's view, however limited, has certainly colored my views, but I held them before as well. To be frank, I could limit myself to quoting saints--including those the Patriarchate has itself glorified--from the past century to provide a sound view of the institution and its initiatives. I am in good company.

There is no consensus of Holy Saints that condemns the Church of Constantinople. Your post doubles down on the strange obsession of your previous posts.

It is understandable, if not commendable, for someone like the poster from OCA to be defensive -- and thus take the offensive --about his or her church's very awkward canonical situation. This is human nature, is forgivable, and is even humorous. It is not understandable, to me, how posters who benefit every day from the Christian fellowship and support assured by the Church of Constantinople, and are in a prime position to see the benefits to America overall from that See -- and whose churches are not threatened by its ancient status; quite the opposite -- can be conspiratorially critical in every way of the hand that feeds them.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #211 on: July 28, 2016, 03:05:51 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.

This is a red herring. What I was noting is Antonis' seeming enthusiasm for criticizing the Church of Constantinople, the North American arm of which I believe he works for. I wondered if this insider's view (such as it is) has disillusioned him. If not, his obsession is hard to understand.
My insider's view, however limited, has certainly colored my views, but I held them before as well. To be frank, I could limit myself to quoting saints--including those the Patriarchate has itself glorified--from the past century to provide a sound view of the institution and its initiatives. I am in good company.

There is no consensus of Holy Saints that condemns the Church of Constantinople. Your post doubles down on the strange obsession of your previous posts.

It is understandable, if not commendable, for someone like the poster from OCA to be defensive -- and thus take the offensive --about his or her church's very awkward canonical situation. This is human nature, is forgivable, and is even humorous. It is not understandable, to me, how posters who benefit every day from the Christian fellowship and support assured by the Church of Constantinople, and are in a prime position to see the benefits to America overall from that See -- and whose churches are not threatened by its ancient status; quite the opposite -- can be conspiratorially critical in every way of the hand that feeds them.

You heard him guys. Don't ever list legitimate concerns over ecclesiology or canonical actions taken by the EP. Such things are only what badly motivated individuals do. The EP is Christ's vicar on earth. Cardinal Humbert has spoken.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 03:12:18 PM by Rohzek »
"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion." - Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII

“Fools have a habit of believing that everything written by a famous author is admirable. For my part I read only to please myself and like only what suits my taste.” - Lord Pococurante in Candide by Voltaire

Check out my new blog: Shameless Orthodoxy Latest Post:  Latin Divorce & Remarriage: A Forgotten History

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #212 on: July 28, 2016, 03:17:17 PM »
There is no consensus of Holy Saints that condemns the Church of Constantinople. Your post doubles down on the strange obsession of your previous posts.
1. Strawman.
2. I suppose you're right, just like my statement that some bishops didn't sign the council documents was totally unfounded. Oh, wait...

Quote
It is understandable, if not commendable, for someone like the poster from OCA to be defensive -- and thus take the offensive --about his or her church's very awkward canonical situation. This is human nature, is forgivable, and is even humorous. It is not understandable, to me, how posters who benefit every day from the Christian fellowship and support assured by the Church of Constantinople, and are in a prime position to see the benefits to America overall from that See -- and whose churches are not threatened by its ancient status; quite the opposite -- can be conspiratorially critical in every way of the hand that feeds them.
Lol! I suppose you wouldn't understand, would you, seeing as you would rather tell me what my opinions and experiences should be than actually take my opinions and experiences for what they are? Porter, I'm sorry to tell you, the posters on this forum will never be made in your image.

If you want to discuss this issue with me, I think I have well-founded opinions based on first-hand experience and reading and would be more than happy to dialogue with you. If you would rather discount me and speak to me in smug condescension about what you think reality ought to be, I think I am done here.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 03:17:53 PM by Antonis »
You sound like a professional who knows what he's talking about.  That's because you are.

"This is the one from the beginning, who seemed to be new, yet was found to be ancient and always young, being born in the hearts of the saints."
Letter to Diognetus 11.4

Offline Jessica Kolettis

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #213 on: July 29, 2016, 09:02:24 AM »
I wish Met. Seraphim of Piareus could become the next Patriarch of Constantinople, since he actually sounds like a Patriarch of old. But the chances are probably greater that Pope Francis would himself convert to Orthodoxy.
He can't he's not eligible to run because he's not a Turkish citizen (being a Turkish citizen is prerequisite for eligibility for the EP's position according to Turkish law, and I doubt Turkish authorities would ever consider granting him Turkish citizenship given his positions in various issues)

And what about Met Emmanuel. Is he a Turkish citizen? And if not, are there any obstacles that could prevent him of being granted Turkish citizenship?

Offline mike

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #214 on: July 29, 2016, 11:46:31 AM »
I wish Met. Seraphim of Piareus could become the next Patriarch of Constantinople, since he actually sounds like a Patriarch of old. But the chances are probably greater that Pope Francis would himself convert to Orthodoxy.
He can't he's not eligible to run because he's not a Turkish citizen (being a Turkish citizen is prerequisite for eligibility for the EP's position according to Turkish law, and I doubt Turkish authorities would ever consider granting him Turkish citizenship given his positions in various issues)

And what about Met Emmanuel. Is he a Turkish citizen? And if not, are there any obstacles that could prevent him of being granted Turkish citizenship?

As he is a chairman of (defunct) Halki school then the answer is yes.
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Offline Photinia

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #215 on: July 31, 2016, 09:32:04 AM »
I wish Met. Seraphim of Piareus could become the next Patriarch of Constantinople, since he actually sounds like a Patriarch of old. But the chances are probably greater that Pope Francis would himself convert to Orthodoxy.
He can't he's not eligible to run because he's not a Turkish citizen (being a Turkish citizen is prerequisite for eligibility for the EP's position according to Turkish law, and I doubt Turkish authorities would ever consider granting him Turkish citizenship given his positions in various issues)

And what about Met Emmanuel. Is he a Turkish citizen? And if not, are there any obstacles that could prevent him of being granted Turkish citizenship?

As he is a chairman of (defunct) Halki school then the answer is yes.

Oh really? Is he? I've always thought a chairman of Halki school is Metropolitan Elpidophoros...

Offline mike

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #216 on: July 31, 2016, 09:37:00 AM »
I wish Met. Seraphim of Piareus could become the next Patriarch of Constantinople, since he actually sounds like a Patriarch of old. But the chances are probably greater that Pope Francis would himself convert to Orthodoxy.
He can't he's not eligible to run because he's not a Turkish citizen (being a Turkish citizen is prerequisite for eligibility for the EP's position according to Turkish law, and I doubt Turkish authorities would ever consider granting him Turkish citizenship given his positions in various issues)

And what about Met Emmanuel. Is he a Turkish citizen? And if not, are there any obstacles that could prevent him of being granted Turkish citizenship?

As he is a chairman of (defunct) Halki school then the answer is yes.

Oh really? Is he? I've always thought a chairman of Halki school is Metropolitan Elpidophoros...

Sorry, my bad, got the names confused.

As for Met. Emmanuel I wouldn't be surprised if he has one as well. And I wouldn't be surprised if he became the next EP either.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2016, 09:37:33 AM by mike »
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Offline biro

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #217 on: July 31, 2016, 11:17:49 AM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.

This is a red herring. What I was noting is Antonis' seeming enthusiasm for criticizing the Church of Constantinople, the North American arm of which I believe he works for. I wondered if this insider's view (such as it is) has disillusioned him. If not, his obsession is hard to understand.
My insider's view, however limited, has certainly colored my views, but I held them before as well. To be frank, I could limit myself to quoting saints--including those the Patriarchate has itself glorified--from the past century to provide a sound view of the institution and its initiatives. I am in good company.

There is no consensus of Holy Saints that condemns the Church of Constantinople. Your post doubles down on the strange obsession of your previous posts.

It is understandable, if not commendable, for someone like the poster from OCA to be defensive -- and thus take the offensive --about his or her church's very awkward canonical situation. This is human nature, is forgivable, and is even humorous. It is not understandable, to me, how posters who benefit every day from the Christian fellowship and support assured by the Church of Constantinople, and are in a prime position to see the benefits to America overall from that See -- and whose churches are not threatened by its ancient status; quite the opposite -- can be conspiratorially critical in every way of the hand that feeds them.

You heard him guys. Don't ever list legitimate concerns over ecclesiology or canonical actions taken by the EP. Such things are only what badly motivated individuals do. The EP is Christ's vicar on earth. Cardinal Humbert has spoken.

The ever-popular legitimate concerns.

Because everyone who does not support you has none.  ::)
In a time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #218 on: July 31, 2016, 01:01:56 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.

This is a red herring. What I was noting is Antonis' seeming enthusiasm for criticizing the Church of Constantinople, the North American arm of which I believe he works for. I wondered if this insider's view (such as it is) has disillusioned him. If not, his obsession is hard to understand.
My insider's view, however limited, has certainly colored my views, but I held them before as well. To be frank, I could limit myself to quoting saints--including those the Patriarchate has itself glorified--from the past century to provide a sound view of the institution and its initiatives. I am in good company.

There is no consensus of Holy Saints that condemns the Church of Constantinople. Your post doubles down on the strange obsession of your previous posts.

It is understandable, if not commendable, for someone like the poster from OCA to be defensive -- and thus take the offensive --about his or her church's very awkward canonical situation. This is human nature, is forgivable, and is even humorous. It is not understandable, to me, how posters who benefit every day from the Christian fellowship and support assured by the Church of Constantinople, and are in a prime position to see the benefits to America overall from that See -- and whose churches are not threatened by its ancient status; quite the opposite -- can be conspiratorially critical in every way of the hand that feeds them.

You heard him guys. Don't ever list legitimate concerns over ecclesiology or canonical actions taken by the EP. Such things are only what badly motivated individuals do. The EP is Christ's vicar on earth. Cardinal Humbert has spoken.

The ever-popular legitimate concerns.

Because everyone who does not support you has none.  ::)

What are your legitimate concerns, biro? 
Quote from: Fr Alexander Schmemann
The Gospel is quite clear: both saints and sinners love God. "Religious" people do not love him, and whenever they can, they crucify him.

Of course, OC.net is not reflective of the Church, but is rather a surreal bubble. I have visited a lot of different parishes around the world and have listened to many hours of AFR...

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #219 on: July 31, 2016, 11:36:30 PM »
You really don't like your boss, eh, Antonis?

He knows very well that the GOAA is under the aegis of the EP.

HAH Bartholomew I is his and my Patriarch, whether he likes it or not, unless he changes churches.

And I guess, in your view, this requires that his views be in lock step with anything emanating from Patriarch Bartholomew.

This is a red herring. What I was noting is Antonis' seeming enthusiasm for criticizing the Church of Constantinople, the North American arm of which I believe he works for. I wondered if this insider's view (such as it is) has disillusioned him. If not, his obsession is hard to understand.
My insider's view, however limited, has certainly colored my views, but I held them before as well. To be frank, I could limit myself to quoting saints--including those the Patriarchate has itself glorified--from the past century to provide a sound view of the institution and its initiatives. I am in good company.

There is no consensus of Holy Saints that condemns the Church of Constantinople. Your post doubles down on the strange obsession of your previous posts.

It is understandable, if not commendable, for someone like the poster from OCA to be defensive -- and thus take the offensive --about his or her church's very awkward canonical situation. This is human nature, is forgivable, and is even humorous. It is not understandable, to me, how posters who benefit every day from the Christian fellowship and support assured by the Church of Constantinople, and are in a prime position to see the benefits to America overall from that See -- and whose churches are not threatened by its ancient status; quite the opposite -- can be conspiratorially critical in every way of the hand that feeds them.

You heard him guys. Don't ever list legitimate concerns over ecclesiology or canonical actions taken by the EP. Such things are only what badly motivated individuals do. The EP is Christ's vicar on earth. Cardinal Humbert has spoken.

The ever-popular legitimate concerns.

Because everyone who does not support you has none.  ::)

Try harder son.
"What I have shown you is reality. What you remember, that is the illusion." - Sephiroth from Final Fantasy VII

“Fools have a habit of believing that everything written by a famous author is admirable. For my part I read only to please myself and like only what suits my taste.” - Lord Pococurante in Candide by Voltaire

Check out my new blog: Shameless Orthodoxy Latest Post:  Latin Divorce & Remarriage: A Forgotten History

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #220 on: August 26, 2016, 05:46:27 PM »

I think "tone-deaf campaigning" has a lot to do whether the campaign is for 'internal' or 'external' audiences.  It is essential for us to remember that sometimes what is said to us really isn't meant for us.


I'm not so sure... I think the tone-deafness runs incredibly deep in that subculture. e.g., http://www.thomasnelson.com/bartholomew

What a curious list...


    Pope Francis
    Pope Benedict XVI
    Rowan Williams
    Rabbi David Rosen
    George Stephanopoulos
    Jane Goodall
    Joe Biden, Jr.
    Al Gore, Jr.


And many more.

It's almost as tho the Church is reaching out to key figures in the modern world, even perhaps willing to resume its ancient role as Pastor of people everywhere. "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (I Tim 2).

You sound as if you think the Patriarch of Constantinople is the "Pastor of people everywhere." Once again: this Patriarch or any other one is not the equal of the Roman Catholic Pope,never was and never will be. Where were you catechized anyway?  :P

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Re: Will Metropolitan Elpidophoros be the next Ecumenical Patriarch?
« Reply #221 on: September 27, 2016, 12:25:55 PM »
The orthodox church is the "the pillar and ground of the truth" according to the Bible.
And it is the only one who is the true church and it is pure and cannot be mixed with heresies.