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Question: What your opinion about the Orthodox Church of Portugal?
Why Orthodox church of Portugal live church of Poland? - 0 (0%)
Why Orthodox Church of Portugal go back to canonical comunium with all Orthodoxy? - 0 (0%)
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Antunes
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« on: November 03, 2012, 12:27:05 PM »

Is Canonical or not? What happen with the Orthodox Church of Poland and Portuguese?
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2012, 12:32:28 PM »

I've heard there were two reasons: firstly there has started some Mariavite-like cult in Portugal. Secondly, Abp John was trying to act as a primate of autocephalous Church, more accurately he visited some patriarchs without informing Metr. Savva beforehand.

Not sure if these are true.

Since 2001 (or 2002) they are not in communion with any Church.
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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2012, 12:36:56 PM »

No it's not. The Polish mission is now headquarted in Rio de Janeiro under bishop Crisóstomo.

Here is a list of canonical Orthodox parishes in Portugal:

Portugal
Algarve
Paróquia Ortodoxa da Protecção da Mãe de Deus
Capela da Sta. Casa da Misericórdia
Lar J.F. Fialho – 8600-573 LAGOS
Celebrações: Domingo – 9H00
Contacto: Padre Nikolai Kutsiuk – 963726466 - lagosortodox@gmail.com

Paróquia de Faro/Albufeira (em organização)
Contacto: Arquimandrita Philip Jagnisz - 966200964 – frphlp@gmail.com
Aveiro
Paróquia Ortodoxa de S. Nicolau
Capela do Hospital Civil
Estrada de S. Bernardo, 267 – 3810.176 AVEIRO
Celebrações: Domingos – 10H00
Contacto: Padre Ihor Yaremus - 933562696 - igoryaremus@rambler.ru

Paróquia Ortodoxa de S. Pedro e S. Paulo
Largo da Igreja (Seminário das Missões)
3721-908 CUCUJÃES
Celebrações: 1 e 3º. Domingos – 10H00
Contacto: Padre Ignatiy Lytinskyy - 937624951

Coimbra
Paróquia Ortodoxa de S. Jorge
Mosteiro de Celas – Largo do Mosteiro – 3000.239 COIMBRA
(Entrada pelo Hospital Pediátrico)
Celebrações: 1 e 3º. Domingos – 10H00
Contacto: Padre Igor Nevinskyy - 969032670

Lisboa
Paróquia Ortodoxa de S. Nectário e S. Gregório
Igreja do Bairro de Caselas
Rua da Igreja – 1400.201 LISBOA
Celebrações: 1º. e 3º. Domingos – 11H30
Contactos: P.Alexandre Bonito– 965155660 – padre.alexandre@clix.pt
P.Ivan Moody – 919437357/214660243 – ivanmoody@gmail.com  

Paróquia Ortodoxa de S. João Baptista
Capela de Nossa Senhora da Oliveirinha
Rua de S. Julião, 140 – 1100.527 LISBOA
Celebrações: Domingos - 10H00
Contacto:Padre Vasyl Khomin – 968519596 – vasylkhomyn@gmail.com

Paróquia Ortodoxa de S. João o Russo
Igreja Anglicana de S. Paulo
Av. Dos Bombeiros Voluntários, 59 – 2765.202 S. JOÃO DO ESTORIL
Celebrações: 2º. e 4º Domingo – 11H30
Contacto: Padre Ivan Moody- 919437357 - ivanmoody@gmail.com

Capelania Ortodoxa da Protecção da Mãe de Deus
R. Professor Agostinho da Silva, bloco C – 12
Tapada das Mercês – 2725.528 MEM MARTINS
Contacto: P. Daniel Santos - 918767611 - andaipintas@gmail.com

Igreja de Santo André
Rua Pedro Julião, 2640-518 MAFRA
Contacto: Padre Igor Nevinskyy - 969032670

Porto
Paróquia Ortodoxa de S. Pantaleão
Capela da Imaculada Conceição
Rua da Constituição, 379 – 4200.199 PORTO
Celebrações: Domingo – 10H30
Contacto: Arquimandrita Philip Jagnisz - 966200964 - frphlp@gmail.com
Coadjutor: P. Ivan Lys - 967976626
P. Ihor Lytinskyy - 937624951

Paróquia Ortodoxa de Santa Catarina
Capela de Nossa Senhora das Dores
Parque da Senhora das Dores – 4785.118 TROFA
Celebrações: Domingo, 9H00
Contacto: Padre Serhiy Yelisyeyev - 939075059 - padreserhiy@gmail.com

Viana do Castelo
Paróquia Ortodoxa de Santo André
Capela de S. João d’Arga – 4900.408 VIANA DO CASTELO
Celebrações: Domingo – 11H00
Contacto: Padre Vasyl Savchuk – 0034687300942 aroasavchuk@hotmail.com
 

Father Philip is the representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate to the Ukrainians there, he may give directions to you:

https://www.facebook.com/jagnisz
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2012, 12:45:52 PM »

And this was perhaps the cause of the disruption, or were there other reasons?
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2012, 12:55:31 PM »

my doubt is that was the Orthodox Church Poland who broke with the Church of Portugal or the Portuguese was broke with Poland?

it is strange that there has been a break between the churches and the Metropolitan Sawa has not deposed Metropolitan John of Portugal!
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2012, 01:01:10 PM »

At the following year, 2001, due to serious reasons of local Pastoral Order, the Orthodox Church of Portugal untied of the Communion of Prayers that for 11 years long maintained with the Orthodox Church of Poland.

http://www.igrejaortodoxa.pt/english/history-history_church_of_portugal.html
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2012, 01:13:40 PM »

They could already be canonical if they wanted 7 years ago! Through the Patriarchate of Constantinople, but it seems they do not want to be canonical, it seems afraid of the Metropolitan Joao lose autonomy and no longer be a Metropolitan Primate, and afraid to be deposed as Bishop of the Diocese!
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« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2012, 01:22:36 PM »

Can you expand the thing about Constantinople?
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2012, 01:36:16 PM »

I am not sure what the poll options mean. Also where can I read more about this church?
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2012, 02:08:23 PM »

I am not sure what the poll options mean. Also where can I read more about this church?

I don't know about you, But I am confused...
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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2012, 02:10:15 PM »

Also where can I read more about this church?

From their POV:

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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2012, 03:41:01 PM »

 Constantinople addressed the church of Portugal to become canonical, were in talks but then stopped, i think the Church of Portugal had no interest in continuing with the talks, if I'm not mistaken.
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« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2012, 12:13:54 PM »

What happened was:

- A group of Brazilians and Portuguese who were previously involved in Perennialist studies (Guenón, Schuon, etc) decided they should join the Orthodox Church because it was traditional Christianity. More traditional than tradition is to choose an Old-Calendarist church and so they did;

- Eventually, the bishop of the Old-Calendarist church they had joined pleaded to be accepted into the canonical Polish Church - I think his name was Bishop Gabriel. They were indeed accepted.

- The Church thrived for some time under the pompous name of Orthodox Church of Portugal, Brazil, Spain and all Latin America or something to that effect.

- After Bishop Gabriel died, they elected current "Bishop" John for his substitute;

- Soon it was discovered that Bishop John was involved in financial scandals related to buying land under Portuguese subsidies and, either reselling the land or keeping extra money;

- Also, it was discovered that there was this controversial psychich/mystic woman who had a leadership role somewhere in the countryside of Portugal, who even sit on the bishop's throne.

- On top of that, when Bishop John returned from Warsaw, instead of presenting himself as "just" a bishop, he presented himself with the title and symbols of a metropolitan, demandind such respect from the others. Add to that the standard accusations of sexual misconduct in these cases and your scandal is ready.

- Eventually, the Brazilian branch denounced all this to Warsaw who sent delegates to investigate everything and after all the confirmations (except the sexual misconducts), immediately expelled the Portuguese branch from the Polish jurisdiction.

- The Brazilian branch subsequently split into a group that stayed with Poland (present in Rio de Janeiro and in the Northeast of the country) and another group that was accepted by the Serbian Church (present only in the Northeast).

It must be said that both these groups are fully cannocical today and have been doing a beautiful work in missionizing to Brazilians.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 12:21:18 PM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2012, 12:17:01 PM »

The Portuguese branch may have been aproched by Constantinople, by they seem to keep the old hybris of being the ancient western iberian orthodox church revived, demanding full autocephaly. From the other churches they want just "recognition" at most, not being willing to humbly join a canonical jurisdiction and wait proper maturation. If some question US autocephaly having 200+ years of Orthodoxy there, how much worse can it be with a group that is Orthodox for 40 years at most and already demand autocephaly?
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« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2012, 01:50:55 PM »

Will this is all true what you speak?
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« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2012, 02:50:21 PM »

Yes. I was told all this by people who actively participated in the events.
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« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2012, 03:48:08 PM »

So, Metropolitan Sawa demoted Metropolitan John to a Bishop, and he back to Portugal, the same as the Metropolitan, and because of this the Church of Poland spun off tto the Church of Portugal correct?
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« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2012, 03:51:00 PM »

and the accusations of sexual misconduct ? What hapen ?
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« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2012, 11:23:45 AM »

The problem was that Bishop John had never received the rank of Metropolitan or Archbishop. He was elevated to bishop only. When he returned to Portugal he basically lied about his rank, claiming it was higher than it really was.

Because of this plus financial misconduct, plus condoning with the sect of medium he was expelled from the Polish Church. Today, he is not a member of any actual canonical church.

About the sexual misconduct accusations, they were never proved or disproved. Because they were raised during the hottest period of the scandal it is difficult to know if they really happened as part of a generally bad behaviour of his part, or if they were just people's brain painting what was already bad with even stronger colours.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 11:24:16 AM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2012, 11:34:50 AM »

But due to the death of Metropolitan Gabriel, Archbishop John was enthroned Metropolitan Primate of Portugal By His Beatitude Basil Poland! Here is the link with pic

http://www.igrejaortodoxa.pt/Fotos/Fts%20entronização/Image00026.jpg
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« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2012, 11:36:19 AM »

http://www.igrejaortodoxa.pt/english/primate-entronization.html
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« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2012, 11:55:28 AM »

Well, all I can say is that both Warsaw and Brazil claim that he was enthroned as bishop only, and that the title of metropolitan was an usurpation. He claims that everybody is lying. He was *under* the authority of the Polish Church which never granted autocephaly to that group, and certainly did not give him authorization to use that rank or they would not have punished him. He wa disobedient at the very least and criminal at worst.

For all that I care, he is just another twistodox who abused the good-will of foreign Orthodox authorities in distant countries to twist their words and actions among the locals and profit from that.

« Last Edit: November 06, 2012, 11:56:27 AM by Fabio Leite » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2012, 12:17:07 PM »

From what I know and it really is true, is that Gabriel was Metropolitan Primate of the Church of Portugal, with the right to use Panagia, Encolpion and cross, as head of a Autonomous Church, and the autonomy granted to the Church of Portugal given by Calendarist Old Church of Greece, was respected by the Church of Poland, when he received the Church of Portugal in their midst canonical. So much so that at the time Archimandrite John Chrysostom and Archimandrite in 1991 were elected auxiliary bishops in Poland, for Portugal and Brazil, respectively.

In 1993, Metropolitan Gabriel of Portugal, praised Bishop John to Archbishop in 1997 Metropolitan died, was the 1st council of the Church of Portugal, where Archbishop John was elected the new Metropolitan Primate of Portugal, which itself came after Metropolitan Basil Primate of Poland and enthroned Archbishop John as the new Metropolitan Primate of Portugal, gave him a pectoral cross, Panaghia and Encolpion, kalimavka white and gave him his own Mandias to him. with Metropolitan Basil of Warsaw, also came Archbishop Simon from Lodz and Poznan.

This is what I'm sure what happened
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« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2012, 12:20:09 PM »

Thereafter never i really knew the real reasons for the separation of the Churches. Until you have told me what happened!
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« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2012, 01:24:06 PM »

Why do you care?
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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2012, 01:47:21 PM »

Because I never got to know me and no one ever managed to explain what really happened, the reasons to separate church and what led to it!
But now more or less i understand better what led to this situation!
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« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2012, 05:23:54 PM »

The problem was that Bishop John had never received the rank of Metropolitan or Archbishop. He was elevated to bishop only. When he returned to Portugal he basically lied about his rank, claiming it was higher than it really was.

Actually, he was referred as a metropolitan:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VwfgG9LEKA#t=6m20s
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« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2012, 06:03:42 PM »

The problem was that Bishop John had never received the rank of Metropolitan or Archbishop. He was elevated to bishop only. When he returned to Portugal he basically lied about his rank, claiming it was higher than it really was.

Actually, he was referred as a metropolitan:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VwfgG9LEKA#t=6m20s

That's interesting - I thought that there can't be more than 1 metropolitan in the Church of the metropolis' rank. Or maybe he was referred as a metropolitan in Greek sense, so he was lower than metropolite Sava?... But that's rather an overinterpretation.
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« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2012, 06:08:54 PM »

That's interesting - I thought that there can't be more than 1 metropolitan in the Church of the metropolis' rank.

14 metropolitans
http://orthodox.org.ua/category/1123/list

not to mention the OCA j/k
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« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2012, 06:17:59 PM »

I thought it was only the patriarch who could wear the green mantle.
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« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2012, 06:20:37 PM »

I thought it was only the patriarch who could wear the green mantle.

Metropolitan Savva disagrees

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« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2012, 08:59:22 AM »

That's interesting - I thought that there can't be more than 1 metropolitan in the Church of the metropolis' rank.

14 metropolitans
http://orthodox.org.ua/category/1123/list
But they're under Moscow Patriarchate. I should have written 'an autocephalus Church".
not to mention the OCA j/k

Well, this Church is... A bit specific. Anyway, there is only one metropolitan that acts as metropolitan. All the rest is retired.

I thought it was only the patriarch who could wear the green mantle.
Because is the Head of an autocephalus Church. I know that for some people it is controversial
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« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2012, 09:41:52 AM »

But they're under Moscow Patriarchate. I should have written 'an autocephalus Church".

They are de facto autonomous.
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« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2013, 09:57:52 AM »

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« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2013, 11:12:05 AM »

That's interesting - I thought that there can't be more than 1 metropolitan in the Church of the metropolis' rank.

14 metropolitans
http://orthodox.org.ua/category/1123/list

not to mention the OCA j/k
or the Patriarchate of Constantinople.
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« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2013, 11:19:03 AM »

That's interesting - I thought that there can't be more than 1 metropolitan in the Church of the metropolis' rank.

14 metropolitans
http://orthodox.org.ua/category/1123/list

not to mention the OCA j/k
or the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

How many patriarchs do they have?
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« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2013, 11:22:10 AM »

That's interesting - I thought that there can't be more than 1 metropolitan in the Church of the metropolis' rank.

14 metropolitans
http://orthodox.org.ua/category/1123/list

not to mention the OCA j/k
or the Patriarchate of Constantinople.

How many patriarchs do they have?
Right now, only one. That hasn't been the case for much of the last couple centuries.

But the discussion was on number of Metropolitans, which Constantinople started with three at least, and has more.
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« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2013, 11:25:48 AM »

But the discussion was on number of Metropolitans, which Constantinople started with three at least, and has more.

The discussion was about hierarchs with the same rank as their synod chairman.
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