OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 21, 2014, 12:03:45 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Why Are Protestants So Afraid of 'Works'?  (Read 1430 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
JamesR
Virginal Chicano Blood
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox (but doubtful)
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church *of* America
Posts: 5,997


St. Augustine of Hippo pray for me!


« on: November 02, 2012, 01:33:06 PM »

I've noticed a very dangerous, sad trend among the Protestant community to assume that Grace/Salvation are in conflict with works or action. There is this irrational fear about anything that relates to works or action. The moment anyone mentions these things at all, it is always assumed that the person-in-question is self-righteous or believes that their works alone--regardless of disposition or the condition of the heart--can save them. Why is it so hard to understand that Salvation includes works--that it is a dynamic and active process--and yet is still purely an act of God's ultimate Grace?  I see no conflict with this whatsoever. In fact, if you read the New Testament you will also see that the definition of 'faith' and 'salvation' is much different compared to the modern Protestant definition. The New Testament speaks of faith as being dynamic and active--a lifestyle if you will, hence how St. Paul says that the righteous would LIVE BY faith, and how St. James says that faith without works is dead--that faith that is inactive and does not include works is not real faith at all. The whole concept of it just being 'acceptance' or 'belief' is very foreign to the New Testament. Indeed, these elements are a part of faith, but I find it very strange that Protestants find this to be mutually exclusive from works and being active--because if you really believed in God and accepted Him, then you would be driven to submit to Him and follow His commandments--all of which are works.

Thoughts?
Logged

Quote
You're really on to something here. Tattoo to keep you from masturbating, chew to keep you from fornicating... it's a whole new world where you outsource your crosses. You're like a Christian entrepreneur or something.
Quote
James, you have problemz.
vamrat
Vamratoraptor
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: New Gracanica
Posts: 8,012



« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 01:36:36 PM »

Protestantism is Christianity with numerous subtractions, as my priest is fond of saying.  Works are a sign of Faith.  Faith without works is dead as St. James says in his Epistle, just as the works of the Pharisees without proper faith in God were dead works, as Christ showed repeatedly in the Gospels.
Logged

Das ist des Jägers Ehrenschild, daß er beschützt und hegt sein Wild, weidmännisch jagt, wie sich’s gehört, den Schöpfer im Geschöpfe ehrt.
Hinterlander
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 516


« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2012, 01:55:46 PM »

I think the basic issue that Protestants are concerned with is that many people may see themselves as unworthy and somehow in need of proving to God, by works, that they are worthy of Christ.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 01:56:27 PM by Hinterlander » Logged
quietmorning
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,390


St. Photini


WWW
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2012, 02:00:58 PM »

It comes from an argument with Roman Catholicism, mis-defined.  The confusion started when the RC church started taking money for absolution of sin.  Works fits in with this thought as an action of 'buying off God'.  Lost in all this back and forth of not well defined arguments is the scripture of 'faith without works is dead'.  Language is a funny thing - and much is lost in interpretation. . . but this is a very old cultural 'hear-say' that has been passed down from generation to generation and embellished and or tightened as generations came and went.  Belief that has a root in generational 'heresy' (no pun intended, but it worked, didn't it? Wink ) is very very difficult to undo.  It runs deep and is often related to life and death in perception.

They are right in that you can't buy off God with good deeds.  But the baby went out with the bathwater.
Logged

In His Mercy,
BethAnna
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Posts: 7,132


"My god is greater."


« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 02:06:32 PM »

While works are a necessary expression of faith, and Protestants are wrong insofar as they contradict the Epistle of James, I think there is something to be said for the fact that, without God's help, we can't do anything good, and our personal efforts are really quite worthless when put next to the grace of God. I think the Protestant attitude comes partly from recognizing our sinfulness and powerful grip that sin holds over our lives, so that, even when we seem to be struggling our hardest to overcome our evil inclinations, we still seem to end up where we started. Acknowledging the poverty of our works can be a liberating path to putting our trust in God. There is a place for this in Orthodox spirituality, which can be seen in many of our prayers.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2012, 02:08:31 PM by Iconodule » Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Cyrillic
Warned
Merarches
***********
Online Online

Posts: 10,038


Cyrillico est imperare orbi universo


« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 02:07:07 PM »

the baby went out with the bathwater.

A 7-word summary of the Reformation.
Logged

"Claret is the liquor for boys; port for men; but he who aspires to be a hero must drink brandy."
-Dr. Samuel Johnson
neon_knights
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 513


My political hero.


« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 02:09:00 PM »

Protestantism is Christianity with numerous subtractions, as my priest is fond of saying.  Works are a sign of Faith.  Faith without works is dead as St. James says in his Epistle, just as the works of the Pharisees without proper faith in God were dead works, as Christ showed repeatedly in the Gospels.

No Protestant denies this.
Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 02:16:27 PM »

the baby went out with the bathwater.
A 7-word summary of the Reformation.
Yep...that was exactly what I was going to say. It was an overreaction to unfortunate abuses that were common in the Roman Church at the time. Instead of just protesting the selling of indulgences (which would have been totally justified), Luther wanted to throw out works altogether. He even wanted the Epistle of St. James removed from the canon entirely. He called it "an epistle of straw" if I remember right since it went against his faith alone theology.
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 02:22:16 PM »

I don't think they are. Protestants run and/or work at soup kitchens, pregnancy crisis centers, homeless shelters, etc., too. But it is an aversion to anything seeming too Rome-ish that keeps them from identifying these things as "works" (i.e., actions performed by which they live out their faith in concert with their beliefs). But, y'know...a rose by any other name and all that. I find that if you ask a Protestant who engages in these activities why they do them, they will reference their faith quite readily. So it seems that they have received "works = earning salvation = bad" as a piece of dogma which they will repeat without even realizing how they, by their own lives and examples, show that this is a wrong understanding of the relation between faith and works. (cf. other pieces of Protestant dogma that are self-contradictory, e.g., "Sola Scriptura" not being found anywhere in the Bible)
Logged

primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,667


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2012, 02:45:44 PM »

Again, you cant paint all Protestants with a single brush. If you asked a free-will Baptist about salvation without works they would tell you its impossible as your salvation depends on your walking with God.

However, the "magic prayer" folks, by the very nature of their idea of salvation would say that works is a sign of faith, but works do not save and if you really really really meant your prayer, you're saved no matter what.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,539



« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 02:51:02 PM »

Some of it, I think, is not so much a misunderstanding of "works", but of "salvation". We Orthodox understand salvation as being the transformation into the persons God created us to be - not an event, but a process. Therefore, we would hold that ascetical practices and participation in the sacramental life of the Church are necessary for our salvation. Protestants would tend to call these things "works" and accuse us of trying to "get into heaven" based on our deeds.
Logged
choy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,316


« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 02:55:36 PM »

Luther I think had a false interpretation of St. Paul's criticism of the "works of the Law".  They assume it was for all works.
Logged
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 258



« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 03:36:02 PM »

Lutherans are not: 

From the Augsburg Confession:

Article XX: Of Good Works.

1] Our teachers are falsely accused of forbidding Good Works. 2] For their published writings on the Ten Commandments, and others of like import, bear witness that they have taught to good purpose concerning all estates and duties of life, as to what estates of life and what works in every calling be pleasing to God......

9] First, that our works cannot reconcile God or merit forgiveness of sins, grace, and justification, but that we obtain this only by faith when we believe that we are received into favor for Christ's sake, who alone has been set forth the Mediator and Propitiation, 1 Tim. 2:5, in order that the Father may be reconciled through Him. 10] Whoever, therefore, trusts that by works he merits grace, despises the merit and grace of Christ, and seeks a way to God without Christ, by human strength, although Christ has said of Himself: I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. John 14:6.....

27] Furthermore, it is taught on our part that it is necessary to do good works, not that we should trust to merit grace by them, but because it is the will of God.



http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php
Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 258



« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 03:37:27 PM »

Luther I think had a false interpretation of St. Paul's criticism of the "works of the Law".  They assume it was for all works.

12] And lest any one should craftily say that a new interpretation of Paul has been devised by us, this entire matter is supported by the testimonies of the Fathers. For 13] Augustine, in many volumes, defends grace and the righteousness of faith, over against the merits of works. 14] And Ambrose, in his De Vocatione Gentium, and elsewhere, teaches to like effect. For in his De Vocatione Gentium he says as follows: Redemption by the blood of Christ would become of little value, neither would the preeminence of man's works be superseded by the mercy of God, if justification, which is wrought through grace, were due to the merits going before, so as to be, not the free gift of a donor, but the reward due to the laborer.

15] But, although this doctrine is despised by the inexperienced, nevertheless God-fearing and anxious consciences find by experience that it brings the greatest consolation, because consciences cannot be set at rest through any works, but only by faith, when they take the sure ground that for Christ's sake they have a reconciled God. As Paul teaches Rom. 5:1: 16]Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.

http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php
Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
Iconodule
Uranopolitan
Warned
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate (ACROD)
Posts: 7,132


"My god is greater."


« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2012, 03:48:53 PM »

Why did Luther call the Epistle of James "an epistle of straw"?
Logged

"A riddle or the cricket's cry
Is to doubt a fit reply." - William Blake
Happy Lutheran
Servant of Christ
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Jurisdiction: Lutheran
Posts: 258



« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2012, 03:56:26 PM »

Why did Luther call the Epistle of James "an epistle of straw"?

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=1892

If one takes the times to actually read Luther's comments about James, he praises it and considers it a "good book" "because it sets up no doctrine of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God." Rarely have I seen Luther detractors inform a reader Luther praises James, or respects God's law

Eusebius and Jerome both recorded doubts to the apostolicity and canonicity of James. Luther did not consider James to be James the Apostle. He wasn't alone in this. The great humanist Scholar Erasmus likewise questioned the authenticity of James, as did Cardinal Cajetan, one of the leading 16th Century Roman Catholic scholars.
 
Luther Responded: "In the minor premise, 'without works' is truly in the subject periphrase and refers to faith. We say that justification is effective without works, not that faith is without works. For that faith which lacks fruit is not an efficacious but a feigned faith. 'Without works' is ambiguous, then. For that reason this argument settles nothing. It is one thing that faith justifies without works; it is another thing that faith exists without works." [LW 34: 175-176].

Logged

1 Corinthians 1:27 - But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2012, 03:57:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I don't think they are. Protestants run and/or work at soup kitchens, pregnancy crisis centers, homeless shelters, etc., too. But it is an aversion to anything seeming too Rome-ish that keeps them from identifying these things as "works" (i.e., actions performed by which they live out their faith in concert with their beliefs). But, y'know...a rose by any other name and all that. I find that if you ask a Protestant who engages in these activities why they do them, they will reference their faith quite readily. So it seems that they have received "works = earning salvation = bad" as a piece of dogma which they will repeat without even realizing how they, by their own lives and examples, show that this is a wrong understanding of the relation between faith and works. (cf. other pieces of Protestant dogma that are self-contradictory, e.g., "Sola Scriptura" not being found anywhere in the Bible)

To be sure Protestants have plenty of works, and plenty of fruits, however, theologically speaking, even these folks performing these acts of altruism and charity would probably deny that they are works in the Orthodox-Catholic sense of Saint James' epistle.  We have an entirely separate ontological approach in the Church.  Our theology implicated human free-will with the Divine.  God respects our free-will, so to act in synergy with His Grace, we must actually, tangibly, and dynamically act on our Faith.  We have the free-will to embrace or reject God in any instance, in every moment or potentiality.  So we have works in the Church to manifest our Faith, to bring Grace into our realities.   We act on Grace, or more particularly we act through and with Grace.  The works are important, because without these energies, these actions, these Faith in the verb sense, there is simply nothing.  Faith by itself doesn't exist, every affirmation of Faith, be it a prayer, be it a thought, or be it a charitable action, is a work.  Protestants have plenty of works, but very often their theology forbids the idea that works manifest Grace.  Their teachings are often that Grace saves, period.  Our teaching is that Grace saves through Synergy with works.  It is a different ontology all together, a different cosmology, a different view of how God interacts with Creation.  To many Protestants, if the question was phrased, "Do you need to act through works (energies in Greek) on Faith for Salvation," most would say no, Salvation is entirely from God.  We work out our Salvation as a gradual process, but it does indeed take work, both on God's part through Grace and our own through synergetic cooperation.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Ashman618
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 504



« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2012, 04:36:12 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I don't think they are. Protestants run and/or work at soup kitchens, pregnancy crisis centers, homeless shelters, etc., too. But it is an aversion to anything seeming too Rome-ish that keeps them from identifying these things as "works" (i.e., actions performed by which they live out their faith in concert with their beliefs). But, y'know...a rose by any other name and all that. I find that if you ask a Protestant who engages in these activities why they do them, they will reference their faith quite readily. So it seems that they have received "works = earning salvation = bad" as a piece of dogma which they will repeat without even realizing how they, by their own lives and examples, show that this is a wrong understanding of the relation between faith and works. (cf. other pieces of Protestant dogma that are self-contradictory, e.g., "Sola Scriptura" not being found anywhere in the Bible)

To be sure Protestants have plenty of works, and plenty of fruits, however, theologically speaking, even these folks performing these acts of altruism and charity would probably deny that they are works in the Orthodox-Catholic sense of Saint James' epistle.  We have an entirely separate ontological approach in the Church.  Our theology implicated human free-will with the Divine.  God respects our free-will, so to act in synergy with His Grace, we must actually, tangibly, and dynamically act on our Faith.  We have the free-will to embrace or reject God in any instance, in every moment or potentiality.  So we have works in the Church to manifest our Faith, to bring Grace into our realities.   We act on Grace, or more particularly we act through and with Grace.  The works are important, because without these energies, these actions, these Faith in the verb sense, there is simply nothing.  Faith by itself doesn't exist, every affirmation of Faith, be it a prayer, be it a thought, or be it a charitable action, is a work.  Protestants have plenty of works, but very often their theology forbids the idea that works manifest Grace.  Their teachings are often that Grace saves, period.  Our teaching is that Grace saves through Synergy with works.  It is a different ontology all together, a different cosmology, a different view of how God interacts with Creation.  To many Protestants, if the question was phrased, "Do you need to act through works (energies in Greek) on Faith for Salvation," most would say no, Salvation is entirely from God.  We work out our Salvation as a gradual process, but it does indeed take work, both on God's part through Grace and our own through synergetic cooperation.

stay blessed,
habte selassie


However the the relationship is not equal correct? And one must always remember at all times our created engergies which we use in synergy with the uncreated energies are not even ours in the first place but belong to God?
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2012, 05:00:11 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


However the the relationship is not equal correct? And one must always remember at all times our created engergies which we use in synergy with the uncreated energies are not even ours in the first place but belong to God?

It is not equal, but God has feigned equality on our part in order to respect our free-will.  God wants us to love Him, sincerely, genuinely, not by coercion or force.  In this regard then, He has given us as entities, as living beings who are also spiritual, free-will to exercise.  We have our own "energies" which we manifest into the world.  God respects this.  God allows for this, even though He is always superior.  Essentially, in this cosmological playground where God is unaffected existentially, we are God(s).  In the Created world, we manifest the Uncreated Grace of God into Creation. These are our human energies, our human actions, and God allows for these to occur so He respects them, and in this regard we are on equal footing.  If we chose to reject God, He respects that out of His love for us.  Does that concretely effect or even affect an Uncreated God? Hardly, but it does have cosmic reverberations in a Created world with Created beings like ourselves.

Our very existence is a manifestation of synergy with God's Grace.  Our cells, our atoms, our subatomic particles which make up the composition of our bodies (e.g. hypostasis) are not self-existing, they require God's actions to manifest such into actual existence.  So every nano-second of human existence is a product of Grace, and we have no moments in our lives where God isn't acting in cooperation with us. That is God's side of the equation.  On the Human side, synergy is affirming these actions of God, and willfully acting on them, through thought, through feeling, through actions.  We have to bring Grace into our own human realities, because even while God is not separated from us and we are not self-existing, we have been gifted the free-will to chose to ignore this ontological reality.  We can pretend not to notice God acting in our lives, and subsequently even act to the contrary and manifest evil and sin into our lives by outright rejecting Grace, even while at the same time we are always fundamentally interacting with Grace even to maintain our very existence.  We are living entities, with free-will, and we must act and us this free-will to affirm God in our lives.  We must in the most literal sense, learn to agree with Him  This is works in the Orthodox-Catholic sense.  From my experience, many Protestants would feel uncomfortable with this idea, that we have to cooperate with God to bring about Grace into our lives daily.  It is not just God working through us, but us and He working together, but it takes as much works (literally energies) on our part because of free-will.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
akimori makoto
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Non-heretical Christian
Jurisdiction: Fully-sik-hektic archdiocese of Australia, bro
Posts: 3,126

No-one bound by fleshly pleasures is worthy ...


« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2012, 07:24:38 PM »

While works are a necessary expression of faith, and Protestants are wrong insofar as they contradict the Epistle of James, I think there is something to be said for the fact that, without God's help, we can't do anything good, and our personal efforts are really quite worthless when put next to the grace of God. I think the Protestant attitude comes partly from recognizing our sinfulness and powerful grip that sin holds over our lives, so that, even when we seem to be struggling our hardest to overcome our evil inclinations, we still seem to end up where we started. Acknowledging the poverty of our works can be a liberating path to putting our trust in God. There is a place for this in Orthodox spirituality, which can be seen in many of our prayers.

Convincingly put. As you know, though, it is not often put this way in protestantland.
Logged

The Episcopallian road is easy and wide, for many go through it to find destruction. lol sorry channeling Isa.
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #20 on: November 02, 2012, 10:22:40 PM »

Protestants tend to put the word "works" together with "earn", setting up the image that God "owes" us something that we "earn" with our "works". There are two problems with this. First, God doesn't "owe" anyone anything. Second, salvation isn't an object but healing within a relationship. But then again, Jesus did talk about "rewards", "laying up treasure in heaven", and "labor". Maybe the contexts of those passages might help us to understand (at least in part) the place of good works in the life of a Christian.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
JoeS2
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic by choice
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,193


St. Mark Defender of the true Faith (old CAF guy)


« Reply #21 on: November 02, 2012, 11:18:47 PM »

Works are a manefestation of Faith.   If you love God and your fellow man one will automatically do good things for others.   This is works. 
Logged
Jason.Wike
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,046


« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2012, 01:26:16 AM »

I think its something to do with the almost fetishistic self hating of some of them. The first time I met such a person a month ago at school he gave me the heebijeebies, he was so oozing with crazy Calvinist pathos I could feel it in the air like it was trying (very unsuccessfully) to get into me.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 01:26:57 AM by Jason.Wike » Logged
walter1234
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 928


« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2012, 03:27:41 AM »

I think it is caused by  Catholic's false teaching of Treasury of merits and letter of indulgence.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 03:28:08 AM by walter1234 » Logged
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2012, 05:58:22 PM »

I think the basic issue that Protestants are concerned with is that many people may see themselves as unworthy and somehow in need of proving to God, by works, that they are worthy of Christ.

No, they actually believe that other people believe they can earn their way into Heaven by 'being good'. Sadly, I have known such people personally. What also gets my goat badly is when some Protestants assume that 'salvation through earning' is a teaching of the Orthodox Church.
Protestantism is theoretically a reaction to error. Therefore said error has to exist, or the reaction/correction is no longer neccesary.
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2012, 06:52:29 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I was just thinking to clarify, from my experience, many times what Protestants mean why they say "works" is not necessarily charity or worship, rather and specifically the works of the Law (i.e. the Old Covenant restrictions).  We are indeed never justified by the works of the Law solely in the legalistic sense, and in that regard I think Orthodox and Protestant mutually agree.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2012, 08:14:27 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I was just thinking to clarify, from my experience, many times what Protestants mean why they say "works" is not necessarily charity or worship, rather and specifically the works of the Law (i.e. the Old Covenant restrictions).  We are indeed never justified by the works of the Law solely in the legalistic sense, and in that regard I think Orthodox and Protestant mutually agree.

stay blessed,
habte selassie

While I am hardly either a theologian, Orthodox Christian or Protestant Christian, when both beliefs are accurately represented and understood, then yes, we agree.
The sad thing is that both sides are guilty of sectarian cherry picking in order to "prove" how the other side is wrong.
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
Ashman618
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 504



« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2012, 08:55:59 PM »

What is the best way to approach a Protestant who believes things like Baptism, Confession, the Eucharist are simply works
Logged
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2012, 11:27:01 PM »

What is the best way to approach a Protestant who believes things like Baptism, Confession, the Eucharist are simply works

We do believe they are works, only we believe that God is the one doing the work, not us.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,446



WWW
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2012, 11:31:21 PM »

What is the best way to approach a Protestant who believes things like Baptism, Confession, the Eucharist are simply works

We do believe they are works, only we believe that God is the one doing the work, not us.
+1.

One of my favorite quotes from the Desert Fathers is (paraphrased, because I am too lazy too look it up at the moment): Even if I were to do everything that was required of me each day, it still would not be enough, for that would only pay off my debt for that day. Thank God that He gives me the grace to overlook all my sins.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Alpo
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Jerkodox
Posts: 7,043



« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2012, 03:35:27 AM »

I don't think at least Lutherans are afraid of works. They just have wrong ideas about RC/EO/OO way of justification and a little too narrow perspective on justification. That could be due to medieval Catholic doctrinal emphasizes or just plain errors which were passed on as a sort of urban legends among Protestants after generation and generation even though RCs fixed their problems.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2012, 03:39:16 AM by Alpo » Logged

sprtslvr1973
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA; Jurisdiaction of Dallas and the South
Posts: 684


"Behold I stand at the Door and Knock" Rev. 3:20


« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2012, 07:27:57 AM »

What is the best way to approach a Protestant who believes things like Baptism, Confession, the Eucharist are simply works

We do believe they are works, only we believe that God is the one doing the work, not us.

+2
Logged

"Into thy hands I commend my spirit"- Luke 23:46
“Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” - Mark 9:24
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,667


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2012, 12:12:31 PM »

Quote
What is the best way to approach a Protestant who believes things like Baptism, Confession, the Eucharist are simply works
Well, I would say using that logic, the "magic prayer" that they're fond of, is a work also.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Ashman618
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 504



« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2012, 01:02:46 PM »

I got into it yesterday with my friend who just wants to be "non-denominational" but I think the underlying problems are an aversion to the physical nature of the church and a view of grace as some unmerrited view or idea or concept that God has of a believer. What are some ways to address these?
Logged
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,667


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2012, 01:08:51 PM »

Quote
non-denominational
No such thing. Saying you are labelless is a label. Especially when they start elucidating their beliefs on various things, it comes to find out that they follow the beliefs of some denomination, even if they dont call themselves such a thing.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Ashman618
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 504



« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2012, 03:46:23 PM »

Quote
non-denominational
No such thing. Saying you are labelless is a label. Especially when they start elucidating their beliefs on various things, it comes to find out that they follow the beliefs of some denomination, even if they dont call themselves such a thing.

PP

That's primarily why I used the quotations and I did say there is not such a thing, is a good way to describe Othodoxy pre-denominational
Logged
David Garner
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 292



WWW
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2012, 02:59:16 PM »

It comes from an argument with Roman Catholicism, mis-defined.  The confusion started when the RC church started taking money for absolution of sin.  Works fits in with this thought as an action of 'buying off God'.  Lost in all this back and forth of not well defined arguments is the scripture of 'faith without works is dead'.  Language is a funny thing - and much is lost in interpretation. . . but this is a very old cultural 'hear-say' that has been passed down from generation to generation and embellished and or tightened as generations came and went.  Belief that has a root in generational 'heresy' (no pun intended, but it worked, didn't it? Wink ) is very very difficult to undo.  It runs deep and is often related to life and death in perception.

They are right in that you can't buy off God with good deeds.  But the baby went out with the bathwater.

Exactly.  The problem isn't works.  The problem is merits.  Protestants are not concerned with us doing good, but with our good works earning salvation for us. 
Logged

Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.126 seconds with 64 queries.