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Poll
Question: How would you describe your beliefs regarding God's creation?
Creationism (literal 6 days) - 6 (16.7%)
Theistic Evolution (evolution is God's tool) - 17 (47.2%)
Apathetic (don't care) - 6 (16.7%)
Atheistic Evolution - 1 (2.8%)
Other - 6 (16.7%)
Total Voters: 36

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Author Topic: Interpretation of Genesis, literal or spiritual?  (Read 4035 times) Average Rating: 0
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Kerdy
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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2012, 09:56:35 PM »

Interpretation of the Resurrection, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of Exodus, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of The Ten Commandments, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the The Prophet Daniel in the den of lions, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the entire Bible, literal or spiritual?

Get the picture here?  See the dangers?  See the problems?

(I wouldn't use Wikipedia for much of anything outside a starting point.)

Actually no, I don't see the problem as an Orthodox Christian. You lump them all together as though there were uniform.

They are. 
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augustin717
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2012, 10:05:46 PM »

Interpretation of the Resurrection, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of Exodus, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of The Ten Commandments, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the The Prophet Daniel in the den of lions, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the entire Bible, literal or spiritual?

Get the picture here?  See the dangers?  See the problems?

(I wouldn't use Wikipedia for much of anything outside a starting point.)

Actually no, I don't see the problem as an Orthodox Christian. You lump them all together as though there were uniform.

They are. 
Says who? Don't see Daniel in the lions' den as being on the same level as the resurrection.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2012, 10:06:49 PM »

I'd rather say it's mostly myth. And don't mistake me for saying it's not true either.
I don't get it.  Please clarify.
Myth is indeed the right word. I used "poetry" earlier with much the same point.

Here's the Wikipedia definition of myth:
Quote
In folkloristics, a myth is a sacred narrative usually explaining how the world or humankind came to be in its present form, although, in a very broad sense, the word can refer to any traditional story. Bruce Lincoln defines myth as "ideology in narrative form". Myths typically involve supernatural characters and are endorsed by rulers or priests. They may arise as overelaborated accounts of historical events, as allegory for or personification of natural phenomena, or as an explanation of ritual. They are transmitted to convey religious or idealized experience, to establish behavioral models, and to teach.

Myths are intended to teach the "why" rather than the "what" or "how", which is what science tries to do.

I love how word definitions are changed to fit the moment rather than being constant, the way they should.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2012, 10:13:59 PM »

When one gets caught up in the idea that Genesis has to be literal, or gets caught up in the idea that heaven must be a real place with real physical angels and a real physician throne; then they are missing the entire point of the passages and in fact, are thinking way too much like Westerners and too much like the Jews or Muslims.


What on earth are you talking about here?  Heaven isn’t real?  Angels aren’t real?  Really?  I became Orthodox because I believed it was the true and original Church, and now I find people saying stuff like this!  The modern age of ignorance masked as intelligence.  I can only shake my head as this type of foolishness has found its way into even Orthodoxy.  So very sad.  What next?  God isn't real, rather a word used to describe unity within the universe?  Good grief!
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Kerdy
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« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2012, 10:17:42 PM »

Interpretation of the Resurrection, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of Exodus, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of The Ten Commandments, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the The Prophet Daniel in the den of lions, literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego literal or spiritual?

Interpretation of the entire Bible, literal or spiritual?

Get the picture here?  See the dangers?  See the problems?

(I wouldn't use Wikipedia for much of anything outside a starting point.)

Actually no, I don't see the problem as an Orthodox Christian. You lump them all together as though there were uniform.

They are. 
Says who? Don't see Daniel in the lions' den as being on the same level as the resurrection.

Who says they are not?  Stop thinking inside a tiny box and look around at the big picture.  Can you prove any of the other things actually happened the way described in the bible?  No, yet, for thousands of years these have been accepted as true.  When you dismiss one miracle of God as described in scripture as myth, the others will follow.  We see this sort of thing happen every day.  It’s the systematic deconstruction of Christianity, and now it has apparently crept into the Orthodox Church. 
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« Reply #50 on: November 03, 2012, 10:25:10 PM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley
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Kerdy
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« Reply #51 on: November 03, 2012, 10:29:59 PM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley

He already dismissed Jewish views on scripture earlier in the thread and said we don’t operate this way any longer.  Its new age Orthodoxy.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2012, 10:47:10 PM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley

We aren't Jews, and the opinions/views of the Jews aren't really relevant to us as Orthodox Christians. In fact, it really depends on how you use the term Jewish, because Ancient Israel IS the Church. At the same time, Jewish interpretation, especially prior to Christ, was very limited and didn't even see the whole picture.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2012, 10:57:06 PM »

When one gets caught up in the idea that Genesis has to be literal, or gets caught up in the idea that heaven must be a real place with real physical angels and a real physician throne; then they are missing the entire point of the passages and in fact, are thinking way too much like Westerners and too much like the Jews or Muslims.


What on earth are you talking about here?  Heaven isn’t real?  Angels aren’t real?  Really?  I became Orthodox because I believed it was the true and original Church, and now I find people saying stuff like this!  The modern age of ignorance masked as intelligence.  I can only shake my head as this type of foolishness has found its way into even Orthodoxy.  So very sad.  What next?  God isn't real, rather a word used to describe unity within the universe?  Good grief!

As I've said before, you're thinking far too much like a Westerner.

If we want to talk about "reality", it is proper to say that God isn't even "real", he is beyond all reality.

As for Heaven, heaven is not a real place. Heaven and hell are not physical places. This is actually a Western Christian idea that confused the ancient terms for Sheol &  Hades for the post-resurrectional "Hell". Heaven & Hell are words to denote the temporary state of our souls until the Day of Judgement. The souls of the righteous departed are in the "presence" of God (remember God doesn't have a body, Jesus the Word does, but the Father & Holy Spirit don't) where some of his glory is revealed to them, and they experience a foretaste of what they will experience on the day of judgement. The same is for those who are unrighteous, they are exposed to a little bit of the glory of God, experiencing a foretaste of what will be coming at the Day of Judgement. Also, the state of the unrighteous is not permanent, but because their souls are separated from their bodies, they cannot do anything to affect their own salvation. Our prayers improve their state, the grace of God burns them less and less, and they are able to see more of his glory as illumination. When the Day of Judgement comes, they may receive it as glory, or they may refuse to accept him and receive it as an ever-consuming fire.
We don't "go" to heaven or "go" to hell, as they aren't places, they are states of our souls (which are not physical things).

Angels are also not "real" in the sense you and I think of reality. They are bodiless hosts, they have no physicality, but can manifest themselves to us in physical appearance on earth.

Kerdy, I think you may need to take a step back, and look at what the Orthodox Church & it's Fathers say about things. What I'm saying is not "new-age" and it isn't new within Orthodoxy, in fact it is pretty old. For Western Christians like you and I, some of these things are pretty hard to comprehend, just like Iconography and the Theotokos. But you learn that it is far more biblical than the Western ideas that began to be popularized in medieval times and especially after the writing of Dante's Inferno and Roman Catholic teachings about heaven, hell, judgement etc...
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« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2012, 11:02:03 PM »

As Orthodox Christians do we believe in Theistic Evolution ?
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Kerdy
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« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2012, 11:03:54 PM »

When one gets caught up in the idea that Genesis has to be literal, or gets caught up in the idea that heaven must be a real place with real physical angels and a real physician throne; then they are missing the entire point of the passages and in fact, are thinking way too much like Westerners and too much like the Jews or Muslims.


What on earth are you talking about here?  Heaven isn’t real?  Angels aren’t real?  Really?  I became Orthodox because I believed it was the true and original Church, and now I find people saying stuff like this!  The modern age of ignorance masked as intelligence.  I can only shake my head as this type of foolishness has found its way into even Orthodoxy.  So very sad.  What next?  God isn't real, rather a word used to describe unity within the universe?  Good grief!

As I've said before, you're thinking far too much like a Westerner.

I disagree.  I believe the problem is I am thinking, in general.  This has very little, if anything, to do with Western vs. Eastern thinking.  Rather, it has to do with someone actually considering the material and processing that information into a rational conclusion.  But that’s my opinion.

How long before Tradition is deconstructed as well?  After all, it wasn’t written by God himself, and none of Tradition was dictated by God himself.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2012, 11:05:14 PM »

As Orthodox Christians do we believe in Theistic Evolution ?

We can believe that God is the creator of all things, and evolution is one of the parts of his creation.
We can also believe that God is the creator of all things and that Genesis tells us how he created everything.

The Church doesn't tell us what to believe about how he created. The Church just says that we must believe that God created all things visible and invisible. Beyond that, we can form our own theological opinions on the matter.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2012, 11:06:54 PM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley

We aren't Jews, and the opinions/views of the Jews aren't really relevant to us as Orthodox Christians. In fact, it really depends on how you use the term Jewish, because Ancient Israel IS the Church. At the same time, Jewish interpretation, especially prior to Christ, was very limited and didn't even see the whole picture.

Jesus was the first Christian.  Jews contribute nothing to Christianity.  The clock started a the year 0, unless we are talking about evolution.  Then it started at...what are they saying this year?
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88Devin12
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« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2012, 11:07:42 PM »

When one gets caught up in the idea that Genesis has to be literal, or gets caught up in the idea that heaven must be a real place with real physical angels and a real physician throne; then they are missing the entire point of the passages and in fact, are thinking way too much like Westerners and too much like the Jews or Muslims.


What on earth are you talking about here?  Heaven isn’t real?  Angels aren’t real?  Really?  I became Orthodox because I believed it was the true and original Church, and now I find people saying stuff like this!  The modern age of ignorance masked as intelligence.  I can only shake my head as this type of foolishness has found its way into even Orthodoxy.  So very sad.  What next?  God isn't real, rather a word used to describe unity within the universe?  Good grief!

As I've said before, you're thinking far too much like a Westerner.

I disagree.  I believe the problem is I am thinking, in general.  This has very little, if anything, to do with Western vs. Eastern thinking.  Rather, it has to do with someone actually considering the material and processing that information into a rational conclusion.  But that’s my opinion.

How long before Tradition is deconstructed as well?  After all, it wasn’t written by God himself, and none of Tradition was dictated by God himself.


Again, you're falling into the "slippery slope" fallacy which is a logical fallacy and that line of thinking presents holes in rational thought and argument.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2012, 11:09:37 PM »

As for Heaven, heaven is not a real place.
Then I suppose there is no reason for further discussion on the topic.  No heaven.  Got it.
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88Devin12
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« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2012, 11:09:51 PM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley

We aren't Jews, and the opinions/views of the Jews aren't really relevant to us as Orthodox Christians. In fact, it really depends on how you use the term Jewish, because Ancient Israel IS the Church. At the same time, Jewish interpretation, especially prior to Christ, was very limited and didn't even see the whole picture.

Jesus was the first Christian.  Jews contribute nothing to Christianity.  The clock started a the year 0, unless we are talking about evolution.  Then it started at...what are they saying this year?

Actually no, the Church teaches that while the institution, headed by the Bishops was founded at Pentecost, the Church is actually the continuation of Ancient Israel. The unrighteous Jews lost their inheritance and their covenant with God when they finally killed and rejected him. The righteous Jews kept their inheritance and their covenant with God, and the Gentiles were grafted into that body, which became "The Church" and is now called the Orthodox Church.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #61 on: November 03, 2012, 11:10:07 PM »

When one gets caught up in the idea that Genesis has to be literal, or gets caught up in the idea that heaven must be a real place with real physical angels and a real physician throne; then they are missing the entire point of the passages and in fact, are thinking way too much like Westerners and too much like the Jews or Muslims.


What on earth are you talking about here?  Heaven isn’t real?  Angels aren’t real?  Really?  I became Orthodox because I believed it was the true and original Church, and now I find people saying stuff like this!  The modern age of ignorance masked as intelligence.  I can only shake my head as this type of foolishness has found its way into even Orthodoxy.  So very sad.  What next?  God isn't real, rather a word used to describe unity within the universe?  Good grief!

As I've said before, you're thinking far too much like a Westerner.

I disagree.  I believe the problem is I am thinking, in general.  This has very little, if anything, to do with Western vs. Eastern thinking.  Rather, it has to do with someone actually considering the material and processing that information into a rational conclusion.  But that’s my opinion.

How long before Tradition is deconstructed as well?  After all, it wasn’t written by God himself, and none of Tradition was dictated by God himself.


Again, you're falling into the "slippery slope" fallacy which is a logical fallacy and that line of thinking presents holes in rational thought and argument.

If you say so. 
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« Reply #62 on: November 03, 2012, 11:13:22 PM »

As for Heaven, heaven is not a real place.
Then I suppose there is no reason for further discussion on the topic.  No heaven.  Got it.

You're not listening to what I'm saying, but then again, I'm getting the feeling you don't really seem like you want to. You're jumping to conclusions and falling into logical fallacies with your arguments.

Heaven is not a real place, just as angels don't have real physical bodies. (that is why our Church and prayers refer to them as "bodiless hosts")

Heaven "exists" and is simply the way a righteous soul receives God's grace between now and the day of judgement. After the day of judgement, the righteous receive the fullness of God's grace and grow more and more like him, receiving by his grace what he is by his own nature, but never being equal with him.
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Kerdy
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« Reply #63 on: November 03, 2012, 11:17:58 PM »

As for Heaven, heaven is not a real place.
Then I suppose there is no reason for further discussion on the topic.  No heaven.  Got it.

You're not listening to what I'm saying, but then again, I'm getting the feeling you don't really seem like you want to. You're jumping to conclusions and falling into logical fallacies with your arguments.

Heaven is not a real place, just as angels don't have real physical bodies. (that is why our Church and prayers refer to them as "bodiless hosts")

Heaven "exists" and is simply the way a righteous soul receives God's grace between now and the day of judgement. After the day of judgement, the righteous receive the fullness of God's grace and grow more and more like him, receiving by his grace what he is by his own nature, but never being equal with him.

I understand.  Its semantics.  I’m just done playing the game.
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« Reply #64 on: November 03, 2012, 11:19:39 PM »

I wonder.  Do the Coptics have this problem as well or are they really unchanged?
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« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2012, 11:20:27 PM »

I wonder.  Do the Coptics have this problem as well or are they really unchanged?

You're judging us as if we've changed something? By what authority do you base this on?
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« Reply #66 on: November 04, 2012, 01:30:35 AM »



I don't care if people believe Genesis is literal, just as long as they don't insist that it must be that way and that it must be interpreted literally. Protestants are able to make this argument amongst themselves because their authority is the Bible and is shown by "Sola Scriptura" and the belief in the infallibility of all scripture. However, amongst Orthodox Christians, we don't hold such ideas, and our authority is Christ, who has granted the Church authority.

Patriarch Alexeii II of Moscow, editor’s preface to Pravoslavnoye osmysleniye tvoreniya mira I sovremennaya nauka, vol. 4 (2008), p. 3
A polarity of worldviews poses the task today of introducing students to a wide range of views on fundamental questions. Such questions traditionally refer to the problems of the origin of life, the origin of the universe, and the appearance of man. And no harm will be done to a schoolboy if he knows the Biblical theory of the origin of the world. Man’s realization that he is the crown of God’s creation will only elevate him; if someone wants to think that he has descended from apes, let him think that way, but let him not thrust it on someone else.
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« Reply #67 on: November 04, 2012, 01:33:35 AM »

As Orthodox Christians do we believe in Theistic Evolution ?

The Church doesn't tell us what to believe about how he created. The Church just says that we must believe that God created all things visible and invisible. Beyond that, we can form our own theological opinions on the matter.

says who? seriously - quote just one Saint, just one canon that expresses this viewpoint. prove to us you're not just saying whatever the heck you feel like saying.
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« Reply #68 on: November 04, 2012, 03:22:39 AM »

says who? seriously - quote just one Saint, just one canon that expresses this viewpoint. prove to us you're not just saying whatever the heck you feel like saying.

I could say that about a lot of things that you, as a modern man, accept without question.
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #69 on: November 04, 2012, 03:23:35 AM »

As Orthodox Christians do we believe in Theistic Evolution ?

The Church doesn't tell us what to believe about how he created. The Church just says that we must believe that God created all things visible and invisible. Beyond that, we can form our own theological opinions on the matter.

says who? seriously - quote just one Saint, just one canon that expresses this viewpoint. prove to us you're not just saying whatever the heck you feel like saying.
I decided to pull out my Orthodox Study Bible today and see what it says, if anything, about all this.  While it does say the Church has not dogmatized the Creation account (mostly likely as a result of universal acceptance within the Church until recently), it did say all life was created as we know it, instantaneously.  I can get it and quote it if I need, but anyone with an OSB can easily look it up.  Not sure how evolution, big bang, or any other human concept created in the last couple of hundred years falls into this instantaneous creation of life, but I think I will stick to what has been held as truth since the beginning of humanity.  If this, somehow, makes me less Orthodox, so be it.  Then again, I don’t see how changing what has always been known as truth as being anything resembling an Orthodox view.  If we keep it us, we will all be Roman Catholic.  There I go with a slippery slope again, as if anything bad has ever come from straying from our origins.  
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« Reply #70 on: November 04, 2012, 03:26:05 AM »

I don’t see how changing what has always been known as truth as being anything resembling and Orthodox view.  If we keep it us, we will all be Roman Catholic.


What about this kind of Roman Catholic?

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/geocentrism.html

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

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« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2012, 03:29:13 AM »

I don’t see how changing what has always been known as truth as being anything resembling and Orthodox view.  If we keep it us, we will all be Roman Catholic.


What about this kind of Roman Catholic?

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/geocentrism.html




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« Reply #72 on: November 04, 2012, 06:39:13 AM »

I wonder.  Do the Coptics have this problem as well or are they really unchanged?

The judgment of the God-bearing Fathers of Chalcedon obviously pales in comparison to the issue of whether life on earth evolved by the mechanism described by Darwin.
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« Reply #73 on: November 04, 2012, 06:44:17 AM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley

He already dismissed Jewish views on scripture earlier in the thread and said we don’t operate this way any longer.  Its new age Orthodoxy.

Shall we interpret the words of the God-seeing Prophet Moses, then, by the method of the Pharisees or that of the Sadducees?
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« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2012, 06:50:18 AM »

The question I put forth is, "Who gets to say what is true, what is myth, and what is outright wrong?"

Ask our God-bearing Fathers: they made judgments of precisely that sort all the time.

Did St John Chrysostom err when he said that "God does not have feet"?
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« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2012, 06:55:00 AM »

What is the comparison between us Orthodox Christian Vs Judaism, how do they interpret creation, http://www.jpost.com/ according to that website the year is 5773 from creation ?.
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« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2012, 12:10:49 PM »

That's a real shame.

I loved the Ubaid Period.
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« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2012, 05:24:55 PM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley

He already dismissed Jewish views on scripture earlier in the thread and said we don’t operate this way any longer.  Its new age Orthodoxy.

Shall we interpret the words of the God-seeing Prophet Moses, then, by the method of the Pharisees or that of the Sadducees?

I suggest by the words of Moses.
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« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2012, 05:25:27 PM »

I wonder.  Do the Coptics have this problem as well or are they really unchanged?

The judgment of the God-bearing Fathers of Chalcedon obviously pales in comparison to the issue of whether life on earth evolved by the mechanism described by Darwin.

I have no idea what you mean.
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« Reply #79 on: November 04, 2012, 05:25:51 PM »

The question I put forth is, "Who gets to say what is true, what is myth, and what is outright wrong?"

Ask our God-bearing Fathers: they made judgments of precisely that sort all the time.

Did St John Chrysostom err when he said that "God does not have feet"?

Again, I am unsure of what your mean.
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« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2012, 05:30:08 PM »

Man’s realization that he is the crown of God’s creation will only elevate him; if someone wants to think that he has descended from apes the dust of the ground, let him think that way, but let him not thrust it on someone else.
Huh
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« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2012, 06:50:40 PM »

As Orthodox Christians do we believe in Theistic Evolution ?

The Church doesn't tell us what to believe about how he created. The Church just says that we must believe that God created all things visible and invisible. Beyond that, we can form our own theological opinions on the matter.

says who? seriously - quote just one Saint, just one canon that expresses this viewpoint. prove to us you're not just saying whatever the heck you feel like saying.
I decided to pull out my Orthodox Study Bible today and see what it says, if anything, about all this.  While it does say the Church has not dogmatized the Creation account (mostly likely as a result of universal acceptance within the Church until recently), it did say all life was created as we know it, instantaneously.  I can get it and quote it if I need, but anyone with an OSB can easily look it up.  Not sure how evolution, big bang, or any other human concept created in the last couple of hundred years falls into this instantaneous creation of life, but I think I will stick to what has been held as truth since the beginning of humanity.  If this, somehow, makes me less Orthodox, so be it.  Then again, I don’t see how changing what has always been known as truth as being anything resembling an Orthodox view.  If we keep it us, we will all be Roman Catholic.  There I go with a slippery slope again, as if anything bad has ever come from straying from our origins.  
That almost made me spit my espresso on my keyboard: that OSB is quoted as a dogmatic authority.
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« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2012, 07:09:23 PM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley

He already dismissed Jewish views on scripture earlier in the thread and said we don’t operate this way any longer.  Its new age Orthodoxy.

Shall we interpret the words of the God-seeing Prophet Moses, then, by the method of the Pharisees or that of the Sadducees?

I suggest by the words of Moses.

But the Prophet's words do not interpret themselves. What did the Prophet mean when he wrote that he saw the Lord's back, for example? Our God-bearing Fathers have had different things to say about the meaning of those words.
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« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2012, 07:12:13 PM »

I wonder.  Do the Coptics have this problem as well or are they really unchanged?

The judgment of the God-bearing Fathers of Chalcedon obviously pales in comparison to the issue of whether life on earth evolved by the mechanism described by Darwin.

I have no idea what you mean.

Forgive me, I am not trying to be deliberately obtuse.

It seems to me that you are suggesting that the Copts are "unchanged" if they do not accept Darwin's theory, yet, by communing with the Greeks, do you not confess that the Copts do not hold to the unchanged Apostolic faith? It seems to me that you are making Darwin's theory a bigger deal than the Council of Chalcedon.

I'm sorry if I am putting words in your mouth.
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« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2012, 07:15:51 PM »

The question I put forth is, "Who gets to say what is true, what is myth, and what is outright wrong?"

Ask our God-bearing Fathers: they made judgments of precisely that sort all the time.

Did St John Chrysostom err when he said that "God does not have feet"?

Again, I am unsure of what your mean.

What I mean to say is that the Fathers did not hesitate to say "this cannot be understood literally", or "this is allegory", or "this is both historical and typological". So, while we might not be qualified to make such judgments, our God-bearing Fathers certainly did and do. Isn't that what St John was doing when he said that God does not have a back, even though the Book of Exodus, on its face, suggests that He does indeed?
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« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2012, 07:44:20 PM »

The scriptures can be dangerous indeed
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« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2012, 07:55:33 PM »

As I've pointed out before, the book of Revelation was almost rejected as a canonical book because it was being interpreted too literally by people. That is one of the main reasons we cannot and do not read it in our services.

I'm glad the church doesn't handcuff us and tell us how to interpret Genesis, we are given incredible freedom. Otherwise we would end up being more like Protestant Fundamentalists than the Church.
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« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2012, 06:15:27 AM »

As Orthodox Christians do we believe in Theistic Evolution ?

The Church doesn't tell us what to believe about how he created. The Church just says that we must believe that God created all things visible and invisible. Beyond that, we can form our own theological opinions on the matter.

says who? seriously - quote just one Saint, just one canon that expresses this viewpoint. prove to us you're not just saying whatever the heck you feel like saying.
I decided to pull out my Orthodox Study Bible today and see what it says, if anything, about all this.  While it does say the Church has not dogmatized the Creation account (mostly likely as a result of universal acceptance within the Church until recently), it did say all life was created as we know it, instantaneously.  I can get it and quote it if I need, but anyone with an OSB can easily look it up.  Not sure how evolution, big bang, or any other human concept created in the last couple of hundred years falls into this instantaneous creation of life, but I think I will stick to what has been held as truth since the beginning of humanity.  If this, somehow, makes me less Orthodox, so be it.  Then again, I don’t see how changing what has always been known as truth as being anything resembling an Orthodox view.  If we keep it us, we will all be Roman Catholic.  There I go with a slippery slope again, as if anything bad has ever come from straying from our origins.  
That almost made me spit my espresso on my keyboard: that OSB is quoted as a dogmatic authority.
It was?  When?
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« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2012, 06:15:59 AM »

This thread does *not* deserve 88 replies (at least not anymore).
« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 06:16:16 AM by Severian » Logged


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« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2012, 06:16:57 AM »

How do you view Genesis, is it to be interpreted absolutely literally, and against science? Is it a holy, God-inspired work about our salvation which is not to be taken as a scientific document?

I also included a few other options for convenience as well, that way you are not compelled to take a side.

Also for discussion, should we interpret it absolutely literally, or should we interpret Genesis in a manner similar to other mystical and symbolical books of the Bible (allegorically, historically, typologically etc...)?

Is evolution simply the work of Satan used to deceive us? Or is it the likely reality of where we come from and simply the result of science discovering God's work?

What do the Jews believe, that would be the place to start.  Genesis was written thousands of years B.C. The Jews opinion on Genesis would be proper to get a good understanding.

Interpretations from me, some what 4-5,000 years later...  Shocked

God Bless Smiley

He already dismissed Jewish views on scripture earlier in the thread and said we don’t operate this way any longer.  Its new age Orthodoxy.

Shall we interpret the words of the God-seeing Prophet Moses, then, by the method of the Pharisees or that of the Sadducees?

I suggest by the words of Moses.

But the Prophet's words do not interpret themselves. What did the Prophet mean when he wrote that he saw the Lord's back, for example? Our God-bearing Fathers have had different things to say about the meaning of those words.
Maybe he meant he saw the Lords back.
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