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Poll
Question: Which of the OO Churches is most likely to join the EO Church in the foreseeable future?
Armenian Apostolic Church - 1 (7.7%)
Coptic Church - 3 (23.1%)
Ethiopian Tewahedo Church - 0 (0%)
Eritrean Tewahedo Church - 1 (7.7%)
Malankara Syrian Church (Indian Orthodox Church) - 0 (0%)
Syriac Church - 8 (61.5%)
Total Voters: 13

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Author Topic: Which OO Church do you think is most likely to join the EO Church?  (Read 3008 times) Average Rating: 0
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MichaelArchangelos
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« on: October 31, 2012, 12:26:53 AM »

It's a shame that the EO and OO are divided. The OO are the closest group to Eastern Orthodoxy.

If one of the OO Churches were to break communion with the others, accept Chalcedon and the other Councils, and enter into full communion with the EOC, which one do you think it would be?

Also, considering such a thing did happen, would the former OO Church have to adopt the EO Divine Liturgy, or would they be allowed to keep their own Liturgy?
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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2012, 12:31:04 AM »

How could they "return" to a church communion they were never a part of in the first place? The question of this poll is poorly phrased and deeply ahistorical.
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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2012, 12:32:29 AM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2012, 12:35:58 AM »

How could they "return" to a church communion they were never a part of in the first place? The question of this poll is poorly phrased and deeply ahistorical.
The Copts and several others were once members of the Imperial Church, so it's not really "ahistorical".
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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2012, 12:44:03 AM »

Yes it is, because they weren't "Oriental Orthodox" then, just like you guys weren't "Eastern Orthodox". So saying "when will OO return to the EO Church" makes no sense. There was no EO or OO church when we were still in communion. These aren't real things, just convenient shorthand to describe our respective positions regarding Chalcedon.
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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2012, 12:45:50 AM »

Also, considering such a thing did happen, would the former OO Church have to adopt the EO Divine Liturgy, or would they be allowed to keep their own Liturgy?

They can keep their liturgies, but they would have to adopt EO iconography. That is a deal breaker.
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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2012, 12:50:36 AM »

Yes it is, because they weren't "Oriental Orthodox" then, just like you guys weren't "Eastern Orthodox". So saying "when will OO return to the EO Church" makes no sense. There was no EO or OO church when we were still in communion. These aren't real things, just convenient shorthand to describe our respective positions regarding Chalcedon.
You are arguing semantics. The OP is using modern names to refer to entities of a historical nature. No different than using terms like 'Byzantine' to refer to the Eastern Empire, or 'Roman Catholic' to refer to the western church post-1054, or 'WW1' to describe what was once called the Great War.

Would you agree that the Copts were once members of the Imperial Church?
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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2012, 12:56:59 AM »

They can keep their liturgies, but they would have to adopt EO iconography. That is a deal breaker.
One the Copts sort out their iconography amongst themselves (they've been re-constructing their style for the past few decades, as I understand it) What would have to change?

I mean, it would be nice for Christ to be depicted with the Red/Blue, but we don't even do that in a lot of Theotokos and Child icons.
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2012, 01:07:39 AM »

Ioannis,

Indeed, we were once one church. My point is that you can't return to something that doesn't exist. EO and OO as labels for distinct communions only exist so long as the division persists (that's the whole reason why they're used), and even then only for the benefit of outsiders, so no matter who would be 'returning' to who (a matter of perspective, anyway), the question doesn't work.
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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2012, 01:17:11 AM »

I'm thinking of changing the thread's title from "...most likely to return to the EO Church" to "...most likely to join the EO Church."

Would that make it historically less problematic?
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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2012, 01:19:12 AM »

Or perhaps the word "unite" should be used.

In any event, I don't think any OO Church would go it alone.  My understanding is that there is some sort of an agreement between the OO Churches to that effect.
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2012, 01:21:04 AM »

 
How could they "return" to a church communion they were never a part of in the first place? The question of this poll is poorly phrased and deeply ahistorical.
The Copts and several others were once members of the Imperial Church, so it's not really "ahistorical".

I personally pray for the return of the Emperor himself.

We can change the title of this topic to " when will they return to the Imperial Church".
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2012, 01:35:07 AM »

I personally pray for the return of the Emperor himself.
Jesus Christ?

(Orthodox forum is one of the only places I would have to clarify this  police)
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2012, 02:01:06 AM »

I'll go with "join."
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2012, 04:37:40 AM »

How could they "return" to a church communion they were never a part of in the first place? The question of this poll is poorly phrased and deeply ahistorical.
The Copts and several others were once members of the Imperial Church, so it's not really "ahistorical".

Which was the  "Imperial" Church under emperor Anastasios? Did the EO leave it then?

Thanks to this thread I won't take EO complaints about uniatism seriously anymore.
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2012, 04:45:16 AM »

Thanks to this thread I won't take EO complaints about uniatism seriously anymore.

People shouldn't. It's a double-standard.
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2012, 07:26:13 AM »

If one of the OO Churches were to break communion with the others, accept Chalcedon and the other Councils, and enter into full communion with the EOC, which one do you think it would be?
I dont see that happen. But I can imagine more local full communions like in Antioch.
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2012, 07:29:54 AM »

Also, considering such a thing did happen, would the former OO Church have to adopt the EO Divine Liturgy, or would they be allowed to keep their own Liturgy?

They can keep their liturgies, but they would have to adopt EO iconography. That is a deal breaker.
Which icons do you object to exactly?

Since the only OO church I am really familar with is Alexandria, I would think that both historical Coptic iconography and the currently popular neo-Coptic iconography of Isaac Fanous (btw, he was a student of EO icon theologian and iconographer Léonide Ouspensky) are completely orthodox. What is problematic though are Catholic/Italian style icons still seen in many Coptic Churches in Egypt.
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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2012, 09:03:50 AM »

No "None of the above" option?
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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2012, 11:16:21 AM »

It's a shame that the EO and OO are divided.
Agree 100%.
Which EO church is most likely to throw away the "Tome" issued by somone claiming infallability and (join/unite/return) to the faith of the first three ecumenical councils and the Christology of St. Cyril ?
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2012, 11:23:49 AM »

No "None of the above" option?
Or an "Especially not the Ethiopians" option?
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2012, 11:24:24 AM »

It's a shame that the EO and OO are divided.
Agree 100%.
Which EO church is most likely to throw away the "Tome" issued by somone claiming infallability and (join/unite/return) to the faith of the first three ecumenical councils and the Christology of St. Cyril ?

Now, now, you are well aware there was no infallability issue in 451.
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2012, 11:25:05 AM »

No "None of the above" option?
Or an "Especially not the Ethiopians" option?

Chuckle...yes.
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2012, 11:40:08 AM »

I could imagine a scenario where the Armenians and Syriacs might be willing to join the EO, were it not for promises of solidarity with the Copts and the Ethiopians. The Armenians-- who in any case weren't in communion with the OO until after the 10th century-- have on occasion made noises of accepting the validity of Chalcedonian theology and the Syriacs have extremely warm relationships with both the Antiochian Orthodox and Rome, their laypeople in practice intercommuning with both. On the other hand, the Copts, as exemplified by the late Pope Shenouda and Anba Bishoy, often articulate a theology that is strikingly unacceptable to the EO, something that put a quick end to their last attempted dialog with Moscow. And well, yeah, the Ethiopians.....
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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2012, 11:50:08 AM »

On the other hand, the Copts, as exemplified by the late Pope Shenouda and Anba Bishoy, often articulate a theology that is strikingly unacceptable to the EO, something that put a quick end to their last attempted dialog with Moscow.

What happened?
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2012, 12:03:41 PM »

Quote
What happened?


As I understand it, the dialogue in Moscow in 2005 was cut short and not continued after Anba Bishoy gave a paper that was very disappointing to the Russians. That said, I've never seen a copy of this paper, but having read his other theological statements this isn't exactly a surprise.
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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2012, 12:08:06 PM »

Quote
What happened?


As I understand it, the dialogue in Moscow in 2005 was cut short and not continued after Anba Bishoy gave a paper that was very disappointing to the Russians. That said, I've never seen a copy of this paper, but having read his other theological statements this isn't exactly a surprise.

What HG has written? Was this the controversy about theosis or something else?
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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2012, 12:12:11 PM »

Thanks to this thread I won't take EO complaints about uniatism seriously anymore.
Why would the thoughts of a few people on an Internet board effect this?

Regardless, most complaints about so-called uniatism are ridiculous. Truth should never be put aside so as to avoid "sheep stealing". If what one believes is true (and salvific), then it is only logical that one should spread this truth. This includes proselytizing those that St. John of Damascus calls "monophysites" (note to the moderator : I am quoting St. John).
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2012, 12:16:50 PM »

Quote
 Was this the controversy about theosis or something else?

I honestly don't know. In earlier dialogs he had made very hard-line statements about the unacceptability of EO councils without ever engaging with the content of those councils. In his Arabic writings available online, he shares Pope Shenouda's radically Islamified understanding of theosis and the Eucharist, which often involve Christological digressions that are beyond the pale for EO and arguably well outside the historical mainstream of OO thought.
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« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2012, 12:26:04 PM »

What would have to change?

No cartoons.
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« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2012, 01:12:12 PM »

Patriarch Karekin once said the OOs should unite with us unanimously and together. He can't imagine any other solution.

This thread is pointless.
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« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2012, 01:29:02 PM »

What would have to change?

No cartoons.


From what I've been told IRL by Copts, the super chibi/Walt disantine/flash art icons are an aberration, not the standard. That they are poor attempts at mimicking the style of a famous Neo Coptic iconographer.
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« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2012, 01:56:25 PM »

This thread is pointless.

No argument there.
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« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2012, 03:15:11 PM »

Thanks to this thread I won't take EO complaints about uniatism seriously anymore.
Why would the thoughts of a few people on an Internet board effect this?

Regardless, most complaints about so-called uniatism are ridiculous. Truth should never be put aside so as to avoid "sheep stealing". If what one believes is true (and salvific), then it is only logical that one should spread this truth. This includes proselytizing those that St. John of Damascus calls "monophysites" (note to the moderator : I am quoting St. John).

The problem with St. John of Damascus is that he conflates various Non-Chalcedonian groups. He rightly condemns the works of John the Grammarian, who was a monophysite. Unfortunately, he uses the Grammarian's writings to unjustly condemn Saints Diascorus and Severus, who would have agreed with him concerning the Christology of John the Grammarian.
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« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2012, 04:18:43 PM »

Quote
who would have agreed with him concerning the Christology of John the Grammarian.

I'm not so sure about this. There is indeed a significant disagreement between the theology of Philoponus and Severus, but it would not make a difference as to which of the two is more or less 'monophysite'. Severus and Philoponus both believe in a personal nature. For Severus, however, there is a profound difference between the language used to talk about the Trinity and that used to talk about the Incarnation, such that one cannot speak of the persons of the Trinity as having personal natures. Philoponus, on the other hand, did not make this distinction, and so in considering the persons of the Trinity to each have their own nature, which caused posterity to judge him to be a tritheist. In any case, from the Damascene's perspective, what makes both these figures monophysites is that they hold to the notion of a personal nature.

For a good study of how Philoponus' thought relates to and develops Severus and contemporary anti-Chalcedonian trends, see Ewe Michael Lang's book John Philoponus and the Controversies over Chalcedon in the Sixth Century: A Study and Translation of the Arbiter.
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« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2012, 04:26:41 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"
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« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2012, 05:02:39 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"

How about "Which band of Greek schismatics is most likely to renounce their Nestorianism and crawl on their knees to kiss the feet of the Coptic Pope and beg to be admitted to Heaven?" Wink
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« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2012, 05:07:20 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"

How about "Which band of Greek schismatics is most likely to renounce their Nestorianism and crawl on their knees to kiss the feet of the Coptic Pope and beg to be admitted to Heaven?" Wink
Sounds fine by me. Wink
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« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2012, 05:12:06 PM »

Am I the only one in this thread who likes Neo-Coptic icons?
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« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2012, 05:21:09 PM »

My own little church has 4 large neo-coptic icons of the highest quality and I also have an icon of St Severus at home by the same hand.
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« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2012, 05:23:45 PM »

Am I the only one in this thread who likes Neo-Coptic icons?
not the only one now Grin
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« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2012, 05:24:23 PM »

Am I the only one in this thread who likes Neo-Coptic icons?
Nope. Wink
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 05:24:32 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2012, 05:25:32 PM »

If one of the OO Churches were to break communion with the others, accept Chalcedon and the other Councils, and enter into full communion with the EOC, which one do you think it would be?
I dont see that happen. But I can imagine more local full communions like in Antioch.
Antioch is going to be the first to be re-united.
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« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2012, 05:26:51 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"
The Syriac OO Patriarch was never in Antioch.
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« Reply #44 on: October 31, 2012, 05:27:53 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"
The Syriac OO Patriarch was never in Antioch.
HH Mar Ignatius Zaka is the rightful successor of Sts. Peter and Paul, the Apostles who established the Church of Antioch.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 05:32:19 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2012, 05:29:52 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"
The Syriac OO Patriarch was never in Antioch.

*kuch* Severus *kuch*
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« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2012, 05:32:02 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"
The Syriac OO Patriarch was never in Antioch.

*kuch* Severus *kuch*
Indeed, this is true.
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« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2012, 06:33:07 PM »

Severian, you know Antioch was a Hellenistic city, right?  police
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« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2012, 06:34:01 PM »

Am I the only one in this thread who likes Neo-Coptic icons?

Properly executed, they're fine.

Unfortunately the mimickers often crank out these weird flash art icons that look more like anime than an icon.
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« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2012, 06:34:29 PM »

Severian, you know Antioch was a Hellenistic city, right?  police
What of it?
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« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2012, 06:41:21 PM »

Am I the only one in this thread who likes Neo-Coptic icons?

I have a few at home that I really like. There are many that just look downright silly, but I don't think the neo-Coptic tradition should be judged based on poor examples thereof.
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« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2012, 06:44:46 PM »

Severian, you know Antioch was a Hellenistic city, right?  police
What of it?

So belong to Greek Ourtodux Chairch.
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« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2012, 06:45:27 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"
The Syriac OO Patriarch was never in Antioch.

*kuch* Severus *kuch*
Henotikon.
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« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2012, 06:47:11 PM »

Severian, you know Antioch was a Hellenistic city, right?  police
What of it?

So belong to Greek Ourtodux Chairch.
I didn't think Apostolic succession was contingent upon ethnicity.
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« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2012, 06:59:14 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"
The Syriac OO Patriarch was never in Antioch.
HH Mar Ignatius Zaka is the rightful successor of Sts. Peter and Paul, the Apostles who established the Church of Antioch.
Only when HB Patriarch Ignatius IV Hazim is not among the contestants.

The Emperor of the Romans elevated Mar Severus as Patriarch, and the Emperor of the Romans deposed Mar Severus as Patriarch.   There is canonical problems considering Sergius of Tella as the Patriarch of Antioch, and then Patriarch Paul II, consecrated by Met. Jacob Bardaeus of Edessa, returned to the Orthodox Chalcedonian Church, giving problems of such a claim superceding  Pat. Euphrasius succeeding Pat. Paul II and SS. Peter and Paul.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 07:30:31 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2012, 07:04:03 PM »

I would say the Syriacs since there is already a very close relationship with the Church of Antioch. But I doubt that such a thing would happen unilaterally.

As for them keeping their liturgies, they should absolutely do so. Their liturgies are ancient and venerable. Requiring them to adopt EO liturgy would guarantee the union would never happen.
The Syriacs *are* the Church of Antioch.

May be we should create a separate thread called "Which EO Church do you think is most likely to join the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?"
The Syriac OO Patriarch was never in Antioch.
HH Mar Ignatius Zaka is the rightful successor of Sts. Peter and Paul, the Apostles who established the Church of Antioch.
Only when HB Patriarch Ignatius IV Hazim is not among the contestants.
I have a great respect for him. But my ecclesiological identity requires me to believe that Mar Ignatius Zaka is the rightful Patriarch.
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« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2012, 07:11:11 PM »

Severian, you know Antioch was a Hellenistic city, right?  police
What of it?

So belong to Greek Ourtodux Chairch.
I didn't think Apostolic succession was contingent upon ethnicity.
Obviously you have not met ze phanar.
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« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2012, 07:40:18 PM »

Patriarch Karekin once said the OOs should unite with us unanimously and together. He can't imagine any other solution.

This thread is pointless.
+1

And I think there is a difference between "join" and unite". Neither OO need to join EO nor EO need to join OO - EO and OO should be officially united.
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« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2012, 07:44:16 PM »

Patriarch Karekin once said the OOs should unite with us unanimously and together. He can't imagine any other solution.

This thread is pointless.
+1

And I think there is a difference between "join" and unite". Neither OO need to join EO nor EO need to join OO - EO and OO should be officially united.
Yes, I cannot imagine it happened by OO Antioch leaving the OO to reunite with EO Antioch.
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« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2012, 08:08:40 PM »

Patriarch Karekin once said the OOs should unite with us unanimously and together. He can't imagine any other solution.

This thread is pointless.
+1

And I think there is a difference between "join" and unite". Neither OO need to join EO nor EO need to join OO - EO and OO should be officially united.

Well put. This thread is ridiculous.
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« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2012, 08:14:35 PM »

Am I the only one in this thread who likes Neo-Coptic icons?

I certainly like them.
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« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2012, 08:17:37 PM »

Patriarch Karekin once said the OOs should unite with us unanimously and together. He can't imagine any other solution.

This thread is pointless.
+1

And I think there is a difference between "join" and unite". Neither OO need to join EO nor EO need to join OO - EO and OO should be officially united.

Well put. This thread is ridiculous.


Yeah I dunno... I think it's far from demonstrated credibly that EO and OO Christologies are actually the same. The tendency to gloss over the wide range of anti-Chalcedonian Christologies, both contemporary and historical, is rather frustrating.
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« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2012, 08:21:53 PM »

The Armenians-- who in any case weren't in communion with the OO until after the 10th century--

We were in communion with the other OO's all along.  I don't know where you got the "after the 10th century" claim.

Where did you see or hear that?
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« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2012, 08:22:09 PM »

Patriarch Karekin once said the OOs should unite with us unanimously and together. He can't imagine any other solution.

This thread is pointless.
+1

And I think there is a difference between "join" and unite". Neither OO need to join EO nor EO need to join OO - EO and OO should be officially united.

Well put. This thread is ridiculous.


Yeah I dunno... I think it's far from demonstrated credibly that EO and OO Christologies are actually the same. The tendency to gloss over the wide range of anti-Chalcedonian Christologies, both contemporary and historical, is rather frustrating.
Likewise, the tendency for modern OOs to overlook the Nestorian tendencies in Chalcedonian Christology (both modern and historical) is also very frustrating. I have read many troubling Christological statements from Chalcedonians on this forum and even from the ancient Chalcedonian Patristic writers.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 08:23:25 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2012, 08:23:18 PM »

Patriarch Karekin once said the OOs should unite with us unanimously and together. He can't imagine any other solution.

This thread is pointless.
+1

And I think there is a difference between "join" and unite". Neither OO need to join EO nor EO need to join OO - EO and OO should be officially united.

Well put. This thread is ridiculous.


Yeah I dunno... I think it's far from demonstrated credibly that EO and OO Christologies are actually the same. The tendency to gloss over the wide range of anti-Chalcedonian Christologies, both contemporary and historical, is rather frustrating.

Which "wide range" of Christologies have/do the OO's hold?
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« Reply #65 on: October 31, 2012, 08:32:05 PM »

Patriarch Karekin once said the OOs should unite with us unanimously and together. He can't imagine any other solution.

This thread is pointless.
+1

And I think there is a difference between "join" and unite". Neither OO need to join EO nor EO need to join OO - EO and OO should be officially united.

Well put. This thread is ridiculous.


Yeah I dunno... I think it's far from demonstrated credibly that EO and OO Christologies are actually the same. The tendency to gloss over the wide range of anti-Chalcedonian Christologies, both contemporary and historical, is rather frustrating.

I do not think EO and OO Christologies are the same. I think people on this board make poorly thought out threads that rest upon presumptions that certainly not all of us share. Hence this thread is ridiculous.
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« Reply #66 on: October 31, 2012, 09:01:57 PM »

The Armenians-- who in any case weren't in communion with the OO until after the 10th century--

We were in communion with the other OO's all along.  I don't know where you got the "after the 10th century" claim.

Where did you see or hear that?

The Armenians wavered in their Christology for a number of centuries, when they were even in contact with anyone, and had the additional problem of liturgical practices (especially azymes and animal sacrifice) that were considered unacceptable by virtually everyone else. There's a small but interesting corpus of anti-Armenian texts written by Syriac miaphysite writers. Dionysius bar Salibi (d. second half of the 12th century) wrote the most famous of these, but we also have a similar polemic by Patriarch John X (d. 1073) in a letter he wrote to the Catholicos Gregory II (d. 1105). The full acceptance of the Armenians by the Copts and Syrians came about in fits and starts over a number of centuries. The notion of "Oriental Orthodox" is to some degree a modern construction...
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« Reply #67 on: October 31, 2012, 09:04:40 PM »

The Armenians-- who in any case weren't in communion with the OO until after the 10th century--

We were in communion with the other OO's all along.  I don't know where you got the "after the 10th century" claim.

Where did you see or hear that?

The Armenians wavered in their Christology for a number of centuries, when they were even in contact with anyone, and had the additional problem of liturgical practices (especially azymes and animal sacrifice) that were considered unacceptable by virtually everyone else. There's a small but interesting corpus of anti-Armenian texts written by Syriac miaphysite writers. Dionysius bar Salibi (d. second half of the 12th century) wrote the most famous of these, but we also have a similar polemic by Patriarch John X (d. 1073) in a letter he wrote to the Catholicos Gregory II (d. 1105). The full acceptance of the Armenians by the Copts and Syrians came about in fits and starts over a number of centuries. The notion of "Oriental Orthodox" is to some degree a modern construction...
What does this have to do with anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole?
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« Reply #68 on: October 31, 2012, 09:10:34 PM »

The Armenians-- who in any case weren't in communion with the OO until after the 10th century--

We were in communion with the other OO's all along.  I don't know where you got the "after the 10th century" claim.

Where did you see or hear that?

The Armenians wavered in their Christology for a number of centuries, when they were even in contact with anyone, and had the additional problem of liturgical practices (especially azymes and animal sacrifice) that were considered unacceptable by virtually everyone else. There's a small but interesting corpus of anti-Armenian texts written by Syriac miaphysite writers. Dionysius bar Salibi (d. second half of the 12th century) wrote the most famous of these, but we also have a similar polemic by Patriarch John X (d. 1073) in a letter he wrote to the Catholicos Gregory II (d. 1105). The full acceptance of the Armenians by the Copts and Syrians came about in fits and starts over a number of centuries. The notion of "Oriental Orthodox" is to some degree a modern construction...
What does this have to do with anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole?


Christology, it's maybe tangential. But, I took this forum to be about ecclesiology in some sense....
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« Reply #69 on: October 31, 2012, 09:12:12 PM »

The Armenians-- who in any case weren't in communion with the OO until after the 10th century--

We were in communion with the other OO's all along.  I don't know where you got the "after the 10th century" claim.

Where did you see or hear that?

The Armenians wavered in their Christology for a number of centuries, when they were even in contact with anyone, and had the additional problem of liturgical practices (especially azymes and animal sacrifice) that were considered unacceptable by virtually everyone else. There's a small but interesting corpus of anti-Armenian texts written by Syriac miaphysite writers. Dionysius bar Salibi (d. second half of the 12th century) wrote the most famous of these, but we also have a similar polemic by Patriarch John X (d. 1073) in a letter he wrote to the Catholicos Gregory II (d. 1105). The full acceptance of the Armenians by the Copts and Syrians came about in fits and starts over a number of centuries. The notion of "Oriental Orthodox" is to some degree a modern construction...
What does this have to do with anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole?


Christology, it's maybe tangential. But, I took this forum to be about ecclesiology in some sense....
I would like to hear what you have to say.
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« Reply #70 on: October 31, 2012, 09:14:21 PM »

For a while, as I understand it, the Armenian Church was influenced by Julianism and condemned Severus of Antioch.
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« Reply #71 on: October 31, 2012, 09:16:27 PM »

For a while, as I understand it, the Armenian Church was influenced by Julianism and condemned Severus of Antioch.
For a while, as I understand it, the Imperial Church was influenced by Monothelitism and persecuted Maximus of Constantinople. Wink

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« Reply #72 on: October 31, 2012, 09:21:10 PM »

For a while, as I understand it, the Armenian Church was influenced by Julianism and condemned Severus of Antioch.
For a while, as I understand it, the Imperial Church was influenced by Monothelitism and persecuted Maximus of Constantinople. Wink



Are you familiar with the history surrounding the Council of Manzikert?
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« Reply #73 on: October 31, 2012, 09:24:43 PM »

From an official Armenian church website:

Quote
At this council some dogmatic questions were discussed which had been raised in the Assyrian Church, and led to divergence. The famous Armenian Theologian Translator Khosrovik took part in this Council. The goal of this council was to amend the divergences that had occurred between the two churches concerning the purity of the Savior’s body. The Assyrians accused the Armenians of following the teaching of Julian of Halicarnassus and the Armenians in their turn accused the Assyrians of following the teachings of Severus of Antioch.

The Council established 10 anathemas which refuted the teachings of Julian of Halicarnas and Severus of Antioch and their followers and reestablished the orthodox teaching of the Holy Trinity. As a result an alliance was created between the Armenian and Assyrian churches.

Severus was apparently not condemned by name at this council, but its anathemas were believed by the Armenians to be directed at his doctrine.
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« Reply #74 on: October 31, 2012, 09:25:10 PM »

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I would like to hear what you have to say.

Well, I can't so much give any kind of fully formed opinion so much as identify desiderata. One of the major ones would be a history of the relationships between the different churches that came to be known (not so long ago) as 'Oriental Orthodox'. Another is a survey of contemporary Christological teachings in these churches-- the range of languages involved means that there's not as much communication going on as would be desirable. And, not to be snarky, but it would be very interesting to see how many of these groups have the writings of Severus available to them in Arabic/Armenian/Malayalam/Amharic, etc... I've read a lot of contemporary Coptic theological writing in Arabic, and engagement with the works of Sts Cyrill and Athanasius is pretty rare as it is-- I've never seen modern quotations from Severus.....
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« Reply #75 on: October 31, 2012, 09:25:21 PM »

For a while, as I understand it, the Armenian Church was influenced by Julianism and condemned Severus of Antioch.
For a while, as I understand it, the Imperial Church was influenced by Monothelitism and persecuted Maximus of Constantinople. Wink



Are you familiar with the history surrounding the Council of Manzikert?
Yes. My point is that the episode the Armenians had with Julianism does not bring reproach upon historical anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole.

Plus, I think that there is a lot of evidence to suggest that St. Severus is no longer anathematized by Armenians, even though his anathema was never formally rescinded.
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« Reply #76 on: October 31, 2012, 09:27:05 PM »

For a while, as I understand it, the Armenian Church was influenced by Julianism and condemned Severus of Antioch.
For a while, as I understand it, the Imperial Church was influenced by Monothelitism and persecuted Maximus of Constantinople. Wink



Are you familiar with the history surrounding the Council of Manzikert?
Yes. My point is that the episode the Armenians had with Julianism does not bring reproach upon historical anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole.

But the question is, is it possible at all to speak about "historical anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole", as something totally unified?
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« Reply #77 on: October 31, 2012, 09:28:20 PM »

For a while, as I understand it, the Armenian Church was influenced by Julianism and condemned Severus of Antioch.
For a while, as I understand it, the Imperial Church was influenced by Monothelitism and persecuted Maximus of Constantinople. Wink



Are you familiar with the history surrounding the Council of Manzikert?
Yes. My point is that the episode the Armenians had with Julianism does not bring reproach upon historical anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole.

But the question is, is it possible at all to speak about "historical anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole", as something totally unified?
I think the same question can be applied to the Chalcedonians, at least to some degree.

EDIT: Will have to respond later...

+Peace+
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« Reply #78 on: October 31, 2012, 09:33:12 PM »

For a while, as I understand it, the Armenian Church was influenced by Julianism and condemned Severus of Antioch.
For a while, as I understand it, the Imperial Church was influenced by Monothelitism and persecuted Maximus of Constantinople. Wink



Are you familiar with the history surrounding the Council of Manzikert?
Yes. My point is that the episode the Armenians had with Julianism does not bring reproach upon historical anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole.

But the question is, is it possible at all to speak about "historical anti-Chalcedonian Christology as a whole", as something totally unified?
I think the same question can be applied to the Chalcedonians, at least to some degree.


On the Chalcedonian side, especially if we set aside Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th ecumenical councils, when read together (and with the admission that Chalcedon can be interpreted incorrectly without the clarification of the 5th council!), gives a definite, coherent picture. For the groups that wind up being the OOs, there's not really an equivalent corpus of universally authoritative statements after the 3rd council.....
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« Reply #79 on: October 31, 2012, 09:45:12 PM »

The Armenians-- who in any case weren't in communion with the OO until after the 10th century--

We were in communion with the other OO's all along.  I don't know where you got the "after the 10th century" claim.

Where did you see or hear that?

The Armenians wavered in their Christology for a number of centuries, when they were even in contact with anyone, and had the additional problem of liturgical practices (especially azymes and animal sacrifice) that were considered unacceptable by virtually everyone else. There's a small but interesting corpus of anti-Armenian texts written by Syriac miaphysite writers. Dionysius bar Salibi (d. second half of the 12th century) wrote the most famous of these, but we also have a similar polemic by Patriarch John X (d. 1073) in a letter he wrote to the Catholicos Gregory II (d. 1105). The full acceptance of the Armenians by the Copts and Syrians came about in fits and starts over a number of centuries. The notion of "Oriental Orthodox" is to some degree a modern construction...

What you don't know about the Armenians is a lot.
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« Reply #80 on: October 31, 2012, 09:49:29 PM »

The answer to the subject is NONE except perhaps they may go into communion together.

If by join it it means the bishops start sharing and making new jurisdictional lines, very doubtful.
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« Reply #81 on: October 31, 2012, 09:49:45 PM »

On the Chalcedonian side, especially if we set aside Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th ecumenical councils, when read together (and with the admission that Chalcedon can be interpreted incorrectly without the clarification of the 5th council!), gives a definite, coherent picture. For the groups that wind up being the OOs, there's not really an equivalent corpus of universally authoritative statements after the 3rd council.....

In other words, if you are allowed to set aside the vast majority of the Chalcedonians (because they do not help your case that Chalcedonian Christology is "definite" and "coherent"), then everything looks super, but if the Armenians, some 10 million out of a communion of 70+ million (conservative estimate; the Ethiopians are roughly 45 million by themselves, the Copts between 10-12 million, etc.) at one time anathematized a person who is recognized as a saint by the rest of the communion, then non-Chalcedonian Christology is forever an irreparable, jumbled mess? Very lame. Not buying it at all.

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« Reply #82 on: October 31, 2012, 09:56:31 PM »

Regarding Severus, Julianism and the Council of Manzikert:

Around the sixth century, Julianism was so fashionable that even the Emperor Justinian took it up before his death.  (See Evagrius Scholasticus' Ecclesiastical History, Book 4, Chap. 39)  Julianism made inroads into Armenia, but not to the extent that the writings of Julian were ever translated into Armenian.  Or if they were, they were never in any way preserved.  

The anathemas against Severus were never renewed past the seventh century and so they are, as a practical matter, defunct.  Severus' writings were never translated into Armenian, and it seems the Armenians had misconceptions about what he taught:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,16969.0.html

This was straightened out at the Council of Manzikert, in which bishops from both the Armenians and Syrians met and had a meeting of minds on various issues, including Christology.

None of any of this ever resulted in excommunications.  There was never a time when the Armenians were not in communion with the Copts and Syriac Orthodox.  Did polemics go back and forth between theologians on various issues over the centuries?  Of course, but I am sure the same can be said about the Chalcedonians.
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« Reply #83 on: October 31, 2012, 09:56:41 PM »

On the Chalcedonian side, especially if we set aside Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, the 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 6th ecumenical councils, when read together (and with the admission that Chalcedon can be interpreted incorrectly without the clarification of the 5th council!), gives a definite, coherent picture. For the groups that wind up being the OOs, there's not really an equivalent corpus of universally authoritative statements after the 3rd council.....

In other words, if you are allowed to set aside the vast majority of the Chalcedonians (because they do not help your case that Chalcedonian Christology is "definite" and "coherent"),

We are speaking of communions here, namely, EO and OO. It is quite fair then to set aside the RC's and Protestants since they are not relevant to this discussion.

Quote
then non-Chalcedonian Christology is forever an irreparable, jumbled mess? Very lame. Not buying it at all.

Good, because I don't think Samn or anyone else has said here that your Christology is an "irreparable, jumbled mess."
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« Reply #84 on: October 31, 2012, 10:02:30 PM »

The insinuation is that the OO are not a unified communion, Iconodule. As Salpy points out with regard to the Armenians, whom Samn tried to use to bolster this claim, that is not true at all.
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« Reply #85 on: October 31, 2012, 10:11:12 PM »

Since this is rapidly turning into a thread more suitable for the private forum, I am going to ask everyone to cool off.  Let's lower the tone, and get back to the OP.
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« Reply #86 on: October 31, 2012, 10:19:20 PM »

Shortly after I posted the above warning, another post arguing about Christology was posted.  It was moved to the private forum, as will be any future such posts.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47807.msg830144/topicseen.html#msg830144

If anyone wants to join the private forum, please pm Fr. George.
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« Reply #87 on: October 31, 2012, 11:21:26 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

No "None of the above" option?
Or an "Especially not the Ethiopians" option?



Haha.. this is probably true.  Then again, following the example of HIM Haile Selassie I ecumenical efforts in the 1950s and 1960s, the Tewahedo Church has actually been leading the way towards Ecumenism and reconciliation, both in keeping strong relationships between inter-Oriental Orthodox and also dialogue with Chalcedonians both Eastern Orthodox and also Roman Catholic.  By the 1990s, we've developed rather cordial relations across the Sacramental Christian world, so you never know.  These matters are truly on God, but Ethiopians have indeed remained active in dialogue and discussion about these matters.  I'm not quite sure our fathers and folks would be comfortable with the phrasing "join the EO Church" but reconciliation in some way I suppose is possible.  There is a complicated train of mutual history, theology, politics, and culture which need to be ironed, but in truth from the fourth through almost sixth centuries we more or less got along with all the other jurisdictions as a single Orthodox-Catholic family Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #88 on: November 01, 2012, 10:01:49 PM »

Polemical tangent of a historical nature was split off and put here:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,47807.msg830329.html#msg830329

Knock it off, you guys.
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« Reply #89 on: November 01, 2012, 10:05:37 PM »

Let me remind everyone of the two questions posed by the original post:

1.  "If one of the OO Churches were to break communion with the others, accept Chalcedon and the other Councils, and enter into full communion with the EOC, which one do you think it would be?"

2.  "Also, considering such a thing did happen, would the former OO Church have to adopt the EO Divine Liturgy, or would they be allowed to keep their own Liturgy?"

Please restrict your comments here to addressing these two questions.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.


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« Reply #90 on: November 01, 2012, 10:27:29 PM »

On #2, they shouldn't have to adopt Constantinople's Liturgy (in fact, Alexandria, Antioch, the Caucasians etc. should be able to revive/expand their corresponding EO-OO rite).  And reunion happening together, and not piecemeal like #1 envisions, should ensure that.

#2 will never happen.
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