Coptic & Assyrian & True & Other Orthodoxies

[orthros]

As someone searching, I have a question:  Do the Orthodox believe, in general, that other Orthodox are... er... Orthodox?

For example:  I see people who list themselves as Coptic or Serbian or Ethiopian Tewahedo.  Would all of you see each other as Orthodox (in general)?  Or are there subgroups (e.g. Copts and Ethiopians intercommune, but not with Serbs who are on their own)?  Do Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians see each other as Orthodox, doctrinal disagreements notwithstanding?  Would the Russian church outside of Russia intercommune with the "true" Russian church?  Is it all individual or is there a general structure?

Part of my confusion in researching Orthodoxy are all the subsplits.  Even in the Greek Orthodox Church, there are subgroups that aren't in communion with each other, or at least it appears to be so.

Is there a chart somewhere?  Or some way I can discern what joining Orthodoxy would entail if I choose Greek vs. Antiochian vs. Coptic vs. Ethopian vs. whatever?


Apologies in advance if this is dense.

[biro]

It's a good question. I think most of them are similar.

[dzheremi]

Hi Orthos,

There are a bunch of other threads already about how the different communions see each other. You might want to do a search. Opinions vary widely.

But as far as what it would mean to join any particular communion, that is an easier question.

If you join the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) communion, you are in communion with the Copts, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Indians (Syro-Malankara), Syriac Orthodox ('Syrians'), and the Armenians. You will also be in communion with the British Orthodox Church (within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate), and the French Coptic Orthodox Church (Métropole copte orthodoxe de France).

If you join the Eastern Orthodox, you will be in communion with all of these (basically all of Eastern Europe + Greek and Arab Christian minorities elsewhere + the OCA).

That's a very abbreviated way of looking at it. I'm sure someone who is more involved in tracking these things on the EO side can give a more detailed account of what I'm assuming is wrong with the list from wikipedia.  Their situation is a bit more complex than ours, perhaps, because of the larger number of individual nations/national churches in their communion, and the fact that some of them aren't autocephalous, but apparently would like to be.

[Nephi]

As someone searching, I have a question:  Do the Orthodox believe, in general, that other Orthodox are... er... Orthodox?

For example:  I see people who list themselves as Coptic or Serbian or Ethiopian Tewahedo.  Would all of you see each other as Orthodox (in general)?  Or are there subgroups (e.g. Copts and Ethiopians intercommune, but not with Serbs who are on their own)?  Do Chalcedonians and non-Chalcedonians see each other as Orthodox, doctrinal disagreements notwithstanding?  Would the Russian church outside of Russia intercommune with the "true" Russian church?  Is it all individual or is there a general structure?

Chalcedonian/Eastern Orthodox and non-Chalcedonian/Oriental Orthodox are not in official communion. So Copts and Ethiopians (Oriental Orthodox) commune with each other, but Serbs are Eastern Orthodox and would not commune with any Oriental Orthodox churches. The ROCOR church is part of the Eastern Orthodox communion, and is in perfect communion with the Russian Orthodox Church. I believe ROCOR is actually a part of the ROC now.

Part of my confusion in researching Orthodoxy are all the subsplits.  Even in the Greek Orthodox Church, there are subgroups that aren't in communion with each other, or at least it appears to be so.

You're probably thinking of the Old Calendar schism. There are certain churches ("Genuine," "True," etc.) that are not in communion with any mainstream Eastern Orthodox churches.

And how we view each other is going to vary from person to person.

[Benjamin the Red]

Y'all have beaten me to all the great answers already!

dzheremi's link is helpful for the EO side of things, as we have the 15 autocephalous churches but many national churches that aren't self yet governing, but exist in the structure of other autocephalous churches. Then, the youngest of the autocephalous churches, the Orthodox Church in America, is not universally recognized as autocephalous. Those that disagree with the autocephaly see the OCA as part of the Russian Orthodox Church, since that is their "mother" church.

Really, to know if an EO church is autocephalous, you have to look at the diptychs (the list of bishops), and see who's under who. If the line doesn't end with one of the 15 autocephalous primates, they aren't canonical and we do not commune with them. Then, in turn, all of the other autocephalous churches commemorates the others when their primate is serving, thus declaring the communion between those churches. When a church is "struck from the diptychs", it means a schism has occurred.

As for EO/OO communion. It doesn't generally happen, but sometimes it is allowed (usually only when there isn't a local parish of the proper communion). As far as seeing each other as "Orthodox"...well, opinions will differ among the laity and even the clergy. Personally, I believe the OO to be completely Orthodox and would commune with them if I had the blessing to do so. That said, I don't have that blessing and so I do not. I hope it is a schism that will soon be healed.

When you speak of "subgroups" I think of schismatics groups, like the Greek Old Calendarists, who aren't in communion with us. Again, it is a simple better of referring to the diptychs. Their bishops aren't commemorated by the rest of the EO communion, and so they are not with us.

[dhinuus]

If you join the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) communion, you are in communion with the Copts, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Indians (Syro-Malankara), Syriac Orthodox ('Syrians'), and the Armenians. You will also be in communion with the British Orthodox Church (within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate), and the French Coptic Orthodox Church (Métropole copte orthodoxe de France).

Dear dzheremi ,
A point of clarification: Syro-Malankara is not an Oriental Orthodox Church. It is the name of an Eastern Rite Catholic (I mean under the Roman Pope) that was established in 1929; when Mar Ivanious (allegedly upset that he was not elected as Catholicose) left the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and joined with Rome.

The Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions in India are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (autocephelous under the Catholicose of the East) and Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church (autonomous, but under the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East).

[Cyrillic]

The Oriental Orthodox are orthodox, the Assyrians are nestorians.

 The Oriental Orthodox and the Eastern Orthodox are not in communion (yet).

The rest has been explained already, I see.

[Nephi]

the Assyrians are nestorians.

What I'm gathered from Catholic-Assyrian dialogues, it seems that the Assyrians aren't Nestorian at all in their Christology. I believe, and may be wrong, that they're pretty much Chalcedonian in all but language.

[Cyrillic]

the Assyrians are nestorians.

What I'm gathered from Catholic-Assyrian dialogues, it seems that the Assyrians aren't Nestorian at all in their Christology. I believe, and may be wrong, that they're pretty much Chalcedonian in all but language.

As if the RC-christology isn't quasi-nestorian as well...

Oh, and here, this wonderful chart of Assyrian christology:



Nestorius could have made this would he have had MS Paint.

[sheenj]

the Assyrians are nestorians.

What I'm gathered from Catholic-Assyrian dialogues, it seems that the Assyrians aren't Nestorian at all in their Christology. I believe, and may be wrong, that they're pretty much Chalcedonian in all but language.

As if the RC-christology isn't quasi-nestorian as well...

Oh, and here, this wonderful chart of Assyrian christology:



Nestorius could have made this would he have had MS Paint.

To clarify, the Syriac words Kyana, Qnoma, and Parsopa would be translated as Ousia, Hypostasis, and Prosopon respectively in Greek. This shows that the Assyrian Church believes Christ is two Hypostasis, not the Orthodox view of a Hypostatic Union.

[Deacon Lance]

To clarify, the Syriac words Kyana, Qnoma, and Parsopa would be translated as Ousia, Hypostasis, and Prosopon respectively in Greek. This shows that the Assyrian Church believes Christ is two Hypostasis, not the Orthodox view of a Hypostatic Union.

Not exactly and not with the same definitions.  An Antiochian Orthodox priest who was raided Assyrian does a good job of explaining the differences.

http://eastmeetseastblog.blogspot.com/

[Cyrillic]

IIRC the Syriacs (who speak Syriac natively, duh) speak of Christ as one Qnoma.

[dzheremi]

If you join the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonian) communion, you are in communion with the Copts, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Indians (Syro-Malankara), Syriac Orthodox ('Syrians'), and the Armenians. You will also be in communion with the British Orthodox Church (within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate), and the French Coptic Orthodox Church (Métropole copte orthodoxe de France).

Dear dzheremi ,
A point of clarification: Syro-Malankara is not an Oriental Orthodox Church. It is the name of an Eastern Rite Catholic (I mean under the Roman Pope) that was established in 1929; when Mar Ivanious (allegedly upset that he was not elected as Catholicose) left the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and joined with Rome.

The Oriental Orthodox jurisdictions in India are Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (autocephelous under the Catholicose of the East) and Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church (autonomous, but under the Patriarch of Antioch and all the East).

Sorry. Sloppy wording on my part. I meant Malankara Orthodox, of course. I was using "Syro-" as a prefix to denote the language used (as is common in academia, as here). Didn't even have the Catholic group in mind. Apologies for the confusion.

[Tags:]

OrthodoxChristianity.net > Moderated Forums > Convert Issues (Moderator: Thomas) > Topic: Coptic & Assyrian & True & Other Orthodoxies