Byzantine or Russian chant?

[Cyrillic]

Well, what do you like more, Russian or Byzantine chant?

[Orthodox11]

Well, what do you like more, Russian or Byzantine chant?

The question is flawed. What kind of Russian chant?

[Cyrillic]

Well, what do you like more, Russian or Byzantine chant?

The question is flawed. What kind of Russian chant?

The common one. But they all sound the same to me.

[soderquj]

I like both but have to lean byzantine!

[Cyrillic]

I like both but have to lean byzantine!

Ι sing Byzantine chants under the shower and on my bike. I always hope nobody hears me because I'm really bad at singing 

[Orthodox11]

But they all sound the same to me.

The range is pretty big, with monophonic Znamenny on the one hand and really elaborate operatic stuff on the other.

Ι sing Byzantine chants under the shower

Me too! The shower sounds like an ison.

[age234]

Znamenny is sometimes almost indistinguishable from Byzantine. Especially when they throw in an ison, it's really quite cool.

I was initially drawn to the 4-part harmony of Russian Common Chant, and I do still think it's very beautiful. But I must say Byzantine has now really grown on me, the complexity, the rhythm, and the different patterns and sounds of the tones, and I prefer well-done Byzantine chant to anything else.

It's not always beautiful. Today half our choir started on the same wrong pitch, resulting in a very dissonant "G major" kind of sound for an entire song. (Because you can't stop and get back on track. No, no, no.)

[William]

From what I've heard from YouTube and my parish's choir (which does both), Russian by a mile.

[Alveus Lacuna]

I prefer Byzantine chant mostly, but as others have noted the older style Slavic chants are more like Byzantine and I love their simplicity. My issue with the operatic Russian stuff is that much of it sounds like a trip to the Magic Kingdom rather than the Kingdom of God. Disney choirs are not sacred.

The chant that the Russian Old Believers use is really moving and captivating. I wish that the gradually emerging indigenous chant in North America was more based on this style. But I will say that a straight translation of a Byzantine song into English often sounds awkward and inauthentic. It takes time for something more organic to emerge.

[Cantor Krishnich]

Byzantine Chant is my favorite chant tradition especially when its chanted in Arabic or Romanian.

[NicholasMyra]

Znamenny

St. Vlad's Seminary Znamenny, or Znamenny Znamenny?

[William]

Ok so 90% of people are voting Byzantine chant (I accidentally voted for them when I meant Russian).

Can y'all link me to some good Byzantine chant, then, because most of what I've heard doesn't even begin to approach stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wujZiZ3ZRXU

[LBK]

The choir of the Vatopedi Monastery on Mt Athos is about as good as it gets.

[NicholasMyra]

Ok so 90% of people are voting Byzantine chant (I accidentally voted for them when I meant Russian).

Can y'all link me to some good Byzantine chant, then, because most of what I've heard doesn't even begin to approach stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wujZiZ3ZRXU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IF1FATlYGjk&feature=plcp

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbbXkP3IEyE&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM9ZBr3Ayeg&feature=plcp

[age234]

So

Ok so 90% of people are voting Byzantine chant (I accidentally voted for them when I meant Russian).

Can y'all link me to some good Byzantine chant, then, because most of what I've heard doesn't even begin to approach stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wujZiZ3ZRXU

Gladsome Light: http://youtu.be/pFJQNQ83s78

The Mighty Captain: http://youtu.be/jH18PKaPyaU

First stasis of the Paraklesis: http://youtu.be/ciW--99qXo0 (I love this one)

First section of the Akathist: http://youtu.be/-nUZnE1tp7Y

Communion Hymn: http://youtu.be/6_4K7y_5qa8

[Orthodox11]

Can y'all link me to some good Byzantine chant, then,

For Greek, Lycourgos Angelopoulos' group, Romeiko Ensemble, Capella Romana, the monks of Simonopetra and Vatopaidi monasteries, are all pretty good choirs, though I've found the best chanters are usually not very well known. I've heard much better stuff in real life than I have managed to find on youtube.

For Arabic the Mount Lebanon and Balamand choirs are really good.

I have some very nice recordings in both Romanian and Slavonic but can't remember the names of the choirs.

most of what I've heard doesn't even begin to approach stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wujZiZ3ZRXU

I like this piece a lot, it's basically Georgian style. Very different from what you're likely to hear in any Russian church.

[Dominika]

A compromise: Russian 'Greek' chant

Generally, I prefer byzantine chant. Only in some cases I prefer East Slavonic chants (e.g various 6th tones, troparion and kontakion of the Transfigurarion in the 7th tone doesn't matter Russian or Polish style)

I have some very nice recordings in both Romanian and Slavonic but can't remember the names of the choirs.

As for Romanian, choirs: Evloghia, Tronos, Byzantion. I also like choir Cassia and choir Madrigal.

As for Slavonic, the youth choir of st. John Damascene from Russia, Serbian choir Moisej Petrovic, male choir from Optina and some others (that's what I remember in this moment)

[augustin717]

This is a good one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60_kfOfDKR4

[podkarpatska]

Questions like this are akin to fingernails scratching a chalkboard to my taste. Both are fine. What counts is what is in a person's heart - not the noise coming out of their mouths.

[Orthodox11]

This is a good one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60_kfOfDKR4

Nice. I just found this one too http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=09lWB06kqfA

[Cyrillic]

Questions like this are akin to fingernails scratching a chalkboard to my taste. Both are fine. What counts is what is in a person's heart - not the noise coming out of their mouths.

Don't open threads like these if you don't like them.

[podkarpatska]

Questions like this are akin to fingernails scratching a chalkboard to my taste. Both are fine. What counts is what is in a person's heart - not the noise coming out of their mouths.

Don't open threads like these if you don't like them.

Don't think that the Church is some sort of pick and choose salad bar - way too many inquirers take that approach and flame out. A discussion about chant options is one thing - a poll is stupid and leads to the endless nonsense that we Orthodox seem to revel in - 'my way is more Orthodox than your way.'

[Orthodox11]

Don't think that the Church is some sort of pick and choose salad bar - way too many inquirers take that approach and flame out. A discussion about chant options is one thing - a poll is stupid and leads to the endless nonsense that we Orthodox seem to revel in - 'my way is more Orthodox than your way.'

To be fair, the question was "which do you like more" not "which is better". So far I don't think anyone in the thread has argued about the superiority or propriety of any chant style, they have only indicated their personal preferences for one or the other (or neither).

[88Devin12]

Byzantine Chant, most Russian styles are far to western for me. If I listen to Russian, I prefer Znamenny...

It is Truly Meet in Znamenny: http://youtu.be/TF4q6RUziRc

Stichera of St. Sergius of Radonezh: http://youtu.be/6E6QWiIOJlk

[Rufus]

I love all the chant traditions. I couldn't say I liked one more than the other. Prayer is prayer.

The Russian and Greek chanting traditions are motivated by different philosophies (I won't address intermediate forms such as Romanian). Russian chant is choral and focuses on group cohesion. In contrast, Greek tradition has one or a few chanters chanting at a time, antiphonally, and the skill of the individual chanter is highly prized.

As others have pointed out, there are many variations within each tradition. Even within Greece, there are many specific styles of Byzantine chant which may sound very different, and some of them are more representative of tradition than others. Noteworthy local styles include those of the Patriarchal church, Thessaloniki, the islands, Athens, and Constantinople (the Patriarchal church has a different style from the other churches in the city). Of these, the most authentic are the old chanters of the Great Church of Christ, especially Iakovos Nafpliotis. These are the people whom everyone either imitates or pretends to imitate. Mount Athos tends to have the most heavily Western-influenced style.

Generally, performance groups such as the Greek Byzantine Choir are not good standards for Byzantine chant. Their style is very divergent from oral tradition. Capella Romana definitely has a heavy Western influence (which is NOT bad, but is not representative of authentic Byzantine chant). Vatopedi and Simonopetra Monasteries are also very innovative.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I hear people railing about how Byzantine chant is so much holier than Western church music, and their favorite chant "group" is something like Capella Romana. (Not talking about anyone in particular, but I hear this a lot in real life.) Most of these people balk when they hear the actual sound of Eastern chants.

In short, anything you can buy on Amazon is probably way left of center. Chant is for church, not CD players, so if you're imitating something you got on Amazon, that may be the wrong approach.

I hope I haven't made Podkarpatska's finger-scratching nightmare come true.

[Rufus]

The chant that the Russian Old Believers use is really moving and captivating. I wish that the gradually emerging indigenous chant in North America was more based on this style. But I will say that a straight translation of a Byzantine song into English often sounds awkward and inauthentic. It takes time for something more organic to emerge.

I agree with this. The Russian chant styles are very flexible. Byzantine chant is difficult to work with, because the style favors the rhythm and accentuation of the Greek language. So, composing in English is difficult to say the least. Also, the vocal style and ornamentations of Russian chant are more appealing to most Westerners.

[Alpo]

I don't really care what others do but please keep Byzantine chant out of my church.

[Orthodox11]

Generally, performance groups such as the Greek Byzantine Choir are not good standards for Byzantine chant. Their style is very divergent from oral tradition. Capella Romana definitely has a heavy Western influence (which is NOT bad, but is not representative of authentic Byzantine chant). Vatopedi and Simonopetra Monasteries are also very innovative.

Such groups generally make a point of using styles and compositions which are less well known, particularly Capella Romana and the Romeiko Ensemble. Then you have people like Petros Gaitanos and Fr. Nikodemos (of youtube fame) who, although they sing very well, are singers rather than chanters, something reflected in their style.

[age234]

Byzantine chant is supposed to be chanted by choirs, not individuals. The lack of skills in today's world makes this rare, but single chanters is not the ideal in Byzantine chant. Groups like Capella Romana perform Byzantine music as it sounded at its best—which is rare in the west, and maybe the east too. (CR does a lot of different styles too, from western music to westernized 15th c. Byzantine to very eastern Byzantine).

Pretty much all the liturgical music we use has musical notation, it's not supposed to be made up on the fly (contrary to popular belief). Thus it's possible and ideal for Byzantine chant to be sung by choirs. Hopefully someday it will all be translated, but it does exist.

[podkarpatska]

I love all the chant traditions. I couldn't say I liked one more than the other. Prayer is prayer.

The Russian and Greek chanting traditions are motivated by different philosophies (I won't address intermediate forms such as Romanian). Russian chant is choral and focuses on group cohesion. In contrast, Greek tradition has one or a few chanters chanting at a time, antiphonally, and the skill of the individual chanter is highly prized.

As others have pointed out, there are many variations within each tradition. Even within Greece, there are many specific styles of Byzantine chant which may sound very different, and some of them are more representative of tradition than others. Noteworthy local styles include those of the Patriarchal church, Thessaloniki, the islands, Athens, and Constantinople (the Patriarchal church has a different style from the other churches in the city). Of these, the most authentic are the old chanters of the Great Church of Christ, especially Iakovos Nafpliotis. These are the people whom everyone either imitates or pretends to imitate. Mount Athos tends to have the most heavily Western-influenced style.

Generally, performance groups such as the Greek Byzantine Choir are not good standards for Byzantine chant. Their style is very divergent from oral tradition. Capella Romana definitely has a heavy Western influence (which is NOT bad, but is not representative of authentic Byzantine chant). Vatopedi and Simonopetra Monasteries are also very innovative.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I hear people railing about how Byzantine chant is so much holier than Western church music, and their favorite chant "group" is something like Capella Romana. (Not talking about anyone in particular, but I hear this a lot in real life.) Most of these people balk when they hear the actual sound of Eastern chants.

In short, anything you can buy on Amazon is probably way left of center. Chant is for church, not CD players, so if you're imitating something you got on Amazon, that may be the wrong approach.

I hope I haven't made Podkarpatska's finger-scratching nightmare come true.

Actually not - as you summed up my own personal feelings on the subject quite precisely. Prayer is prayer - it's one thing to express a preference, but quite another to take a poll or have rankings. Next thing you know we'll have an Orthodox Chant-off show on youtube complete with online voting.....

[Rufus]

Generally, performance groups such as the Greek Byzantine Choir are not good standards for Byzantine chant. Their style is very divergent from oral tradition. Capella Romana definitely has a heavy Western influence (which is NOT bad, but is not representative of authentic Byzantine chant). Vatopedi and Simonopetra Monasteries are also very innovative.

Such groups generally make a point of using styles and compositions which are less well known, particularly Capella Romana and the Romeiko Ensemble. Then you have people like Petros Gaitanos and Fr. Nikodemos (of youtube fame) who, although they sing very well, are singers rather than chanters, something reflected in their style.

I agree with you about the bolded statement. The two choirs you've mentioned like using reconstructed melodies from medieval manuscripts. Some of their academic work is very interesting, but their performance practice is speculative.

Byzantine chant is supposed to be chanted by choirs, not individuals. The lack of skills in today's world makes this rare, but single chanters is not the ideal in Byzantine chant. Groups like Capella Romana perform Byzantine music as it sounded at its best—which is rare in the west, and maybe the east too. (CR does a lot of different styles too, from western music to westernized 15th c. Byzantine to very eastern Byzantine).

Pretty much all the liturgical music we use has musical notation, it's not supposed to be made up on the fly (contrary to popular belief). Thus it's possible and ideal for Byzantine chant to be sung by choirs. Hopefully someday it will all be translated, but it does exist.

Well, in Byzantine times, we know that choirs were used at least in the large cathedrals, possibly everywhere. During Ottoman times, the practice devolved to each parish having one or two chanters. The Patriarchal church alone preserved the choral form of chant. During the 19th Century, the practice of having multiple chanters spread to other churches again.

(Meanwhile, the Westernized Greeks had adopted Russian- or European-style choral music, but we're just talking about chant here.)

So it can be properly performed by a single chanter, or a few, or an entire choir if available.

I agree that the more, the merrier, and IME most chanters like getting a group of people to do it with them, and are disappointed when people aren't up to it. I was just pointing out the reality that Byzantine chant is generally not choral.

CR and Romeiko perform speculative reconstructions of old music. The performance style is geared towards Western audiences. As far as I know, neither of these groups claims to be representing "correct" modern Byzantine chant, so they definitely should not be taken that way.

[Rufus]

I'm curious as to why so many more people prefer Byzantine chant to Russian. I though it would be the other way around. Surely you find Russian chant sweeter to your ears..? And how do you get over the harsh Byzantine vocal style and rhythmic weirdnesses?

[podkarpatska]

I'm curious as to why so many more people prefer Byzantine chant to Russian. I though it would be the other way around. Surely you find Russian chant sweeter to your ears..? And how do you get over the harsh Byzantine vocal style and rhythmic weirdnesses?

I would be willing to speculate that for some who are seeking what they think is 'authentic' Orthodoxy - to which a wise priest I remember once referring to those as 'folks munching on our salad bar - a bit of this, a bit of that -' like the Byzantine because it is somewhat discordant and rhythmically 'weird' to our western ears, while Russian or Slavic chants are more melodious. This is due to a mistaken conflation of striving to automatically reject anything one thinks stems from western influences and trying to be more 'authentic' and the age old Orthodox mistake of confusing 'tradition' with 'the Tradition.' 

If I were in a Hellenic oriented church I would find Znammeny out of place and vice-versa were I to find Russians or Ukrainians utilizing Byzantine chant as their normative form.

[Orthodox11]

I'm curious as to why so many more people prefer Byzantine chant to Russian. I though it would be the other way around. Surely you find Russian chant sweeter to your ears..? And how do you get over the harsh Byzantine vocal style and rhythmic weirdnesses?

Being a Westerner doesn't mean you will automatically dislike anything that doesn't sound familiar to you. I think the whole thing about Russian music being "sweeter to the Western ear" might be true for some, but on the whole is a bit of a cliché. Likewise, podkarpatska's theory about rejecting all things Western might be true for some, but very few. The tradition thing might be more true (though in that case it would be a question of monophony vs. 4 part harmony, not Russian vs. Byzantine), but even then I think it's a bit patronising to suggest that a Westerner probably only appreciates Byzantine music for ideological reasons. I would venture to guess that most of the people who picked Byzantine above simply like that particular form of chant because they enjoy listening to it and it helps them pray, not because it's exotic or because they're hyperdox or anti-western. It's just their personal preference.

[augustin717]

Romanian chanting tradition isn't really intermediate between Greek and Russian. It is, of course heavily indebted to the Greek/C-pole tradition but virtually untouched by the Great Russian traditions. It is however also influenced by the Serbian and Bulgarian. The Putna school I think was instrumental, during the early to mid 15th centuries in transmitting certain Greek chants further to the north, such as Kiev, Suprasl etc. But those were Slavonic chants, as Romanian only started to be used in the cult during the 16th century with Filotei sin Aga Jipei being the first to compose or adapt Byzantine melodies in Romanian (1713). Then again, the folk music is probably the most noticeable influence in the style of chanting one will hear especially in Transylvania, Maramures, Banat.

I won't address intermediate forms such as Romanian

[Rufus]

Romanian chanting tradition isn't really intermediate between Greek and Russian. It is, of course heavily indebted to the Greek/C-pole tradition but virtually untouched by the Great Russian traditions. It is however also influenced by the Serbian and Bulgarian. The Putna school I think was instrumental, during the early to mid 15th centuries in transmitting certain Greek chants further to the north, such as Kiev, Suprasl etc. But those were Slavonic chants, as Romanian only started to be used in the cult during the 16th century with Filotei sin Aga Jipei being the first to compose or adapt Byzantine melodies in Romanian (1713). Then again, the folk music is probably the most noticeable influence in the style of chanting one will hear especially in Transylvania, Maramures, Banat.

I won't address intermediate forms such as Romanian

OK. Whenever I've heard Romanian Greek-style chant, it's using the Greek musical lines, but the performance style is way European, i.e. Western intervals, each note is hit exactly on-beat, etc. I don't know much about the native Eastern European chanting traditions (including the Russian), so I'm gonna google around to find some of the non-Greek-influenced Romanian forms you are referring to.

[podkarpatska]

I'm curious as to why so many more people prefer Byzantine chant to Russian. I though it would be the other way around. Surely you find Russian chant sweeter to your ears..? And how do you get over the harsh Byzantine vocal style and rhythmic weirdnesses?

Being a Westerner doesn't mean you will automatically dislike anything that doesn't sound familiar to you. I think the whole thing about Russian music being "sweeter to the Western ear" might be true for some, but on the whole is a bit of a cliché. Likewise, podkarpatska's theory about rejecting all things Western might be true for some, but very few. The tradition thing might be more true (though in that case it would be a question of monophony vs. 4 part harmony, not Russian vs. Byzantine), but even then I think it's a bit patronising to suggest that a Westerner probably only appreciates Byzantine music for ideological reasons. I would venture to guess that most of the people who picked Byzantine above simply like that particular form of chant because they enjoy listening to it and it helps them pray, not because it's exotic or because they're hyperdox or anti-western. It's just their personal preference.

I can't speak for Europe or  Great Britain, but from this side of the 'pond', one of the common complaints you will hear from either cradle Orthodox or long-term converts is that 'newbies' are often so full of zeal and desire to be 'completely' Orthodox that they will accept any folk tale or half-baked theory from one writer or another about this or that tradition being compromised by the west.

I agree with Augustin's observations about Romanian chant as some of the same applies to the Rusyn and Galician chant styles which also are indebted to some extent by contact with the Serbian and Bulgarian traditions - as well as 'znammenyj' influences. Musicologists have noted tonal and pacing similarities between those chants and some of the Old Believer chant stlying as well. What is interesting in Rusyn chant is that Irmosi for special holy days is atypically atonal and can be traced back to the Byzantine style of chant which influenced the historical development of all of the subsequent styles in the Orthodox world. A five or six part history of these developments as formulated by Dr. Stephen Reynolds at the University of Oregon in the 1970's may be of interest:   http://www.acrod.org/ministries/music/plainchant/pchistorypt1 which includes narrative and some notated examples.

The complexity of the subject of chant in the Orthodox church is much more than a simplistic reduction between non-polyphonic Byzantine chant and four part choral 'Russian' chant - I guess that is at the root of my aversion to a simple yes/no question.

[augustin717]

This is a good example of a village church in Transylvania:
http://www.trilulilu.ro/video-evenimente/video-biserica-din-criscior-hunedoara

[podkarpatska]

This is a good example of a village church in Transylvania:
http://www.trilulilu.ro/video-evenimente/video-biserica-din-criscior-hunedoara

Interesting and thank you for the link..the style of the priest's chanting is, but for it being in Romanian, akin to that heard among the Rusyn and Magyar Greek Catholics a bit further north in the Carpathians. The cantorial responses don't really sound similar - but the pacing is similar in a 'sing/song' manner.

Here is an example of the Rusyn Irmos from the Feast of the Entrance of the Theotokas into the Temple - http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/recordings/DivineLiturgies/529EntranceTheotokosIrmos.mp3 - the Byzantine roots of the hymnology are clear. Another example is from Theophany:  http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/recordings/DivineLiturgies/582TheophanyIrmos.mp3  There are a series of such for the immoveable and moveable feasts. (The Byzantine Cantors Institute is a misnamed, but noble endeavor of the BCC Eparchy of Pittsburgh. Working with both Greek Catholic and Orthodox cantors and students, they have put out a wide range of source material on the Rusyn chant tradition. It is interesting that these hymns are not typical of normal Rusyn chant, which is more folk influenced as is the Romanian tradition. ) Other tones are adapted from Bolhar/Bulgarian sources as in the funereal lamentations of St. John of Damascus - sure to bring the most hardened baba to tears back in the day.... http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/recordings/PappIrmologion/FuneralHymnTone5Bolhar.mp3

My point is that there within the many offshoots of Byzantine chant roots are many branches - most of which may be traced to the source, but which evolved in different directions over the many centuries. After all, we honor the notion of national, self ruling churches in Orthodoxy, unlike the hegemony of the west, so it is important to know that there are more unique and useful traditions out there which merit preservation and use.

[88Devin12]

I think it is about actual chanting vs. composed hymns/melodies.

I prefer actual chanting styles to composed music in worship. There is just something about it that is heavenly and angelic.

Western
Old Roman: http://youtu.be/2JOShBSsql0
Gregorian: http://youtu.be/HxjYWvF5ttc
Cistercian: http://youtu.be/1_8Nrx-67EY
Gothic: http://youtu.be/cX9bYNK5oC0
Gallican: http://youtu.be/Ip5f1_Qcyxc
Mozarabic: http://youtu.be/0guT53naKxQ
Ambrosian: http://youtu.be/RrUxaISuk50
Gaelic: http://youtu.be/AYE16lyw9J8

Eastern
Byzantine: http://youtu.be/_0N28P0BRYI
Serbian: http://youtu.be/IzUjBkCn71M
Romanian: http://youtu.be/HXocyx-xVqM
Bulgarian: http://youtu.be/tKOjMRwGFPY
Znamenny: http://youtu.be/TF4q6RUziRc
Georgian: http://youtu.be/0TiXh7kSCtM
Arabic: http://youtu.be/vZxwHmjxVcE
Coptic: http://youtu.be/s80v7zpAfLM
Armenian: http://youtu.be/UIxdjpBvM8U
Syriac: http://youtu.be/-Wo00EgsT6Y
Albanian: http://youtu.be/HPYUZ0MGKpU
Macedonian: http://youtu.be/NyV5mBaEsQg

(these aren't necessarily old chants, just various styles in East/West regardless of age & time period)

Then compare it to this-

Rachmaninov's Divine Liturgy: http://youtu.be/IiSiRAZRCVA
Mikhail Ippolitov-Ivanov's Vespers: http://youtu.be/Pbx9aJpFOrA

The two are just far too different, and while both are very beautiful and holy, I would argue that the former examples are more "mystical" and "other-worldly".

[Father H]

Questions like this are akin to fingernails scratching a chalkboard to my taste. Both are fine. What counts is what is in a person's heart - not the noise coming out of their mouths.

ditto

[Orthodox11]

I can't speak for Europe or  Great Britain, but from this side of the 'pond', one of the common complaints you will hear from either cradle Orthodox or long-term converts is that 'newbies' are often so full of zeal and desire to be 'completely' Orthodox that they will accept any folk tale or half-baked theory from one writer or another about this or that tradition being compromised by the west.

Sure, you get people like that. My point, though, is that I think the majority of Westerners who enjoy Byzantine chant just happen to enjoy Byzantine chant. Suggesting that it's far too exotic for Western ears, and that they therefore must be doing it because it's "more correct" or "not Western" is what I find patronising. Most people, including Westerners, just happen to really like it for no other reason than that they like it.

The complexity of the subject of chant in the Orthodox church is much more than a simplistic reduction between non-polyphonic Byzantine chant and four part choral 'Russian' chant - I guess that is at the root of my aversion to a simple yes/no question.

I agree. You can talk about "Byzantine chant", despite there being different chant styles and interpretations, but "Russian chant" is such a broad category it doesn't really mean anything, the same thing goes for the term "polyphonic". There's a huge difference between harmonised chant, for example, and other more elaborate forms of polyphony.

[genesisone]

I think the majority of Westerners who enjoy Byzantine chant just happen to enjoy Byzantine chant.

...

You can talk about "Byzantine chant", despite there being different chant styles and interpretations, but "Russian chant" is such a broad category it doesn't really mean anything.

Some of the styles of Byzantine chant I don't find esthetically pleasing. However, I am trying to grow in my appreciation of some of the more "exotic" varieties. I am partial to the often, and I believe unfairly, maligned North Americanized variety. I think it is a reaction to what I experienced in my former Protestant life where musical performance was and is expected to be good entertainment. The apparent simplicity of Byzantine chant stands in contrast to that. I appreciate the emphasis on the content rather than on the music itself. I find many of the choral arrangements of Russian styles to be distracting in their beauty - a delight to the ear, but less effective for worship.

Does anyone else get annoyed by a haphazard mix of styles within one service?

[akimori makoto]

I really like this (which I have posted before):

http://youtu.be/psvGa_qBJsw

It has a Gregorian/Latin flavour to it, but is still familiar to my Greek ears.

The power in the priest's voice at "Thine own of Thine own" is amazing.

[Rufus]

This is a good example of a village church in Transylvania:
http://www.trilulilu.ro/video-evenimente/video-biserica-din-criscior-hunedoara

Nice! And I hadn't heard Romanian chanters using what is called complex chronos before...it gives it such a fluid sound!

Thanks.

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