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Author Topic: Do OO and EO admit each other as the true church?  (Read 2494 times) Average Rating: 0
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walter1234
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« on: October 27, 2012, 04:55:59 PM »

Do OO and EO admit each other as the True church which was found by Christ and His Apostle in A.D.33?
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2012, 04:59:23 PM »

No, they do not. At least not on an official level.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 04:59:37 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2012, 05:05:01 PM »

From EO's view, will Christians in OO be saved in last judgment?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 05:07:21 PM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2012, 05:51:35 PM »

yes, to a large extent we do:
http://orthodoxunity.org/

though we don't (usually) share Holy Communion yet.
we are working on it.
we are all one family but not all the brothers are in agreement yet.
may it happen soon.
Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2012, 06:00:43 PM »

From EO's view, will Christians in OO be saved in last judgment?


The EO don't say "you can't be saved". A famous quote from St. Theophan the Recluse is: "You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy, and enter a different faith, you will lose your soul forever."

Now, I and some joint commisions don't think that the OO are heterodox. So if the heterodox can possibly be saved how much more so for the OO! Just my 2c though. I'm pretty infamous for my sympathy for the OO so you can take my sayings with a grain of salt.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2012, 06:01:09 PM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2012, 06:12:29 PM »

As Cyrillic and Mabsoota's posts have shown, there is some difference of opinion or point of view in this matter. Smiley For instance, my priest, who is in no way an extremist, has stated in no uncertain terms that we will not under any circumstance be communing Chalcedonians in our church. At the same time, however, when the Copts first came to this area in the 1970s-80s, before there was a church for them, at least some of them used to commune at the local Greek Orthodox Church (with the Greek and Coptic bishops' full knowledge), as it was the only option in town. Now that we have our own church, the communion of Copts in the Greek church has stopped, because there's no need for it.

So I think the most realistic assessment is to say that our recognition of one another as sharing substantially the same faith is very much affected by local, pastoral circumstances, so it is not possible to generalize based on official statements. Those statements reflect the truth, of course (that we are not in communion), but the reality might be a little different, depending on where you go. This is why many people have pointed favorably to local agreements (such as in the thread on the agreement between EO and OO in Sweden to regular meetings), while at the same time being realistic in recognizing that these do not, in and of themselves, mean that we are reunited or consider each other the same church or anything like that.

Having been to EO churches before (actually long before I had ever been to an OO church; they can be very tough to find, and my home area does not have any, so the local OO go to EO churches...again, pastoral circumstances are so important in how we relate to each other), I can say that personally I see them as being much closer to us than any other communion. Probably if we had a visitor from one of their churches and they didn't say anything, most people wouldn't know based on their practice that they are EO (though of course abouna would not commune them without knowing who they are, and they would presumably know better than to try to be communed anyway). Little variations, like the difference in the sign of the cross, could be noticed, but you'd really have to be looking for them, and honestly nobody is watching a visitor and judging them like that, thank God. Smiley We even have Catholics who come to our liturgies regularly, and they're like family except that they cannot be communed. So on an official level we are still apart, but on an 'unofficial' level, we love everybody and wish that all would be saved, just as we want to be. How could we think otherwise and still pray as we do at the conclusion of every hour? "Have mercy on us, O God, and have mercy on us, who, at all times and in every hour, in heaven and on earth, is worshipped and glorified, Christ our God, the good, the long suffering, the abundant in mercy, and the great in compassion, who loves the righteous and has mercy on the sinners of whom I am chief; who does not wish the death of the sinner but rather that he returns and lives, who calls all to salvation for the promise of the blessings to come..."
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2012, 06:15:47 PM »

From EO's view, will Christians in OO be saved in last judgment?


The salvation of anyone at the last judgment is a decision for God, not man.
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2012, 07:46:59 PM »

OO and EO believe/have the same faith. Isn't it?

I still don't understand why OO and EO would split-up and  separate with each other until today even they believe the same faith.
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2012, 09:19:54 PM »

OO and EO believe/have the same faith. Isn't it?

I still don't understand why OO and EO would split-up and  separate with each other until today even they believe the same faith.

It's horribly complicated. Some believe we share the same faith, but others do not.

Even if we were to come to unanimous agreement that we share the same faith, there are so many historical hurdles to overcome (anathemas, councils, etc.) that we can't just say "we agree the same thing! let's commune!" - although I suppose we could very well do that, most people would rather hash everything out first.
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« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2012, 12:31:09 AM »

Does EO encourage Catholic or Protestant  Christians to covert to OO?

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians  to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 12:36:30 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2012, 05:14:32 AM »

Does EO encourage Catholic or Protestant  Christians to covert to OO?

No. Most EO wont even know about the OO. Oriental Orthodoxy, not Eastern Orthodoxy, is the best kept secret of the west.

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians  to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

The EO think it's better to go EO, the OO (I presume) think it's better to become OO.  Smiley
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« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2012, 05:26:36 AM »

Does EO encourage Catholic or Protestant  Christians to covert to OO?

No. Most EO wont even know about the OO. Oriental Orthodoxy, not Eastern Orthodoxy, is the best kept secret of the west.

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians  to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

The EO think it's better to go EO, the OO (I presume) think it's better to become OO.  Smiley

If  a EO Christian really want to convert to OO , will you and other EO  Christians stop him/ her?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 05:29:48 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2012, 05:30:18 AM »

Well, I'm not EO. I hope to start the catechumenate this year though  Smiley

There are not much converts from EO to OO and vice versa. And what would "stop" mean?
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 05:31:11 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2012, 05:31:37 AM »

Well, I'm not EO. I hope to start the catechumenate this year though  Smiley

There are not much converts from EO to OO and vice versa. And what would "stop" mean?

Stop His  convertion from EO to OO, ask him to keep his faith on EO, or vice verse.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 05:34:19 AM by walter1234 » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2012, 05:44:20 AM »

Well, I'm not EO. I hope to start the catechumenate this year though  Smiley

There are not much converts from EO to OO and vice versa. And what would "stop" mean?

Stop His  convertion from EO to OO, ask him to keep his faith on EO, or vice verse.

There are several good reasons to not become OO, but I think we should be respectful about their decision even if we think they are making a mistake.
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2012, 05:57:55 AM »

Well, I'm not EO. I hope to start the catechumenate this year though  Smiley

There are not much converts from EO to OO and vice versa. And what would "stop" mean?

Stop His  convertion from EO to OO, ask him to keep his faith on EO, or vice verse.

There are several good reasons to not become OO

Yes, Coptic chant is very hard on the ears and I don't like cymbals at all so that's how I decided on the EO-OO issue. One advice I give you Walter, don't dig too deep into this whole Chalcedon-issue (stop while you still can!). It will drive anyone mad.

but I think we should be respectful about their decision even if we think they are making a mistake.

This goes for basically every decision another person ever makes.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 06:12:03 AM by Cyrillic » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2012, 07:14:33 AM »

I am Protestant now. If I convert to OO one day, but not EO . What do EO Christians think of me?
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2012, 07:23:28 AM »

I am Protestant now. If I convert to OO one day, but not EO . What do EO Christians think of me?

They will smother you in your sleep with a copy of the Tome.
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2012, 08:05:10 AM »

Well, I'm not EO. I hope to start the catechumenate this year though  Smiley

There are not much converts from EO to OO and vice versa. And what would "stop" mean?

Stop His  convertion from EO to OO, ask him to keep his faith on EO, or vice verse.

There are several good reasons to not become OO

Yes, Coptic chant is very hard on the ears and I don't like cymbals at all so that's how I decided on the EO-OO issue. One advice I give you Walter, don't dig too deep into this whole Chalcedon-issue (stop while you still can!). It will drive anyone mad.

but I think we should be respectful about their decision even if we think they are making a mistake.

This goes for basically every decision another person ever makes.


Cyrillic,

What about OO churches other than Coptic?
btw the use of cymbals is an innovation of the Middle Ages, and it is technically not correct to use musical instruments in any Orthodox liturgy
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2012, 08:35:40 AM »

Cyrillic,

What about OO churches other than Coptic?
btw the use of cymbals is an innovation of the Middle Ages, and it is technically not correct to use musical instruments in any Orthodox liturgy

Well, I said that half-jokingly, meaning that there is little to no differences between the EO and the OO faith and here in the Netherlands the EO and the OO parishes are all ethnic anyway. But no, there's no other OO church in the area, but the Coptic church is a little bit closer than the nearest EO one. It's a beautiful parish.

Are you trying to make me doubt between OO and EO again? If that's your intention it worked.
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2012, 01:23:39 PM »

I am Protestant now. If I convert to OO one day, but not EO . What do EO Christians think of me?

They will smother you in your sleep with a copy of the Tome.

^^ Posts like this one are why I as an OO do not think badly of EO (or future EO). They're too funny, even when they are making the wrong decision.  Tongue Grin Cheesy

But Qawe is right...cymbals are not technically needed for liturgy, and weren't originally there (see Clement of Alexandria on instruments in the liturgy), and many liturgies I've been to don't use them at all. Some people are too in love with them to admit that they aren't actually needed. Undecided I don't mind when they are used very sparingly (as in my parish), since it's better than having everything fall apart when/if our deacons lose the rhythm of the chant, but sometimes when I watch the Nativity liturgy from the Cathedral on Youtube (for instance), I have to turn it down when the cymbal comes up because they're a little too free and excited with it...I guess it doesn't help I can't stand Ibrahim Ayad's voice, and he heads the chorus...I should probably just stop watching it. It's not like there aren't alternatives...

Deacons, deacons everywhere, and not a cymbal to clank  Wink
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2012, 01:27:35 PM »


Chanters and readers, chanters and readers everywhere, not a deacon in sight, nor a cymbal to clank  Tongue
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2012, 01:34:04 PM »

So St. Athanasius DEACONS SCHOOL is training these people to be chanters and readers? Well now I've heard everything! Cheesy

(Also, "chanters and readers" doesn't fit the rhyme scheme of the saying...quit ruining my fun, ruiner.)
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2012, 02:47:11 PM »

this post might help:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,46910.new.html#new
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2012, 05:51:13 PM »

I am Protestant now. If I convert to OO one day, but not EO . What do EO Christians think of me?

They will smother you in your sleep with a copy of the Tome.

^^ Posts like this one are why I as an OO do not think badly of EO (or future EO). They're too funny, even when they are making the wrong decision.  Tongue Grin Cheesy

But Qawe is right...cymbals are not technically needed for liturgy, and weren't originally there (see Clement of Alexandria on instruments in the liturgy), and many liturgies I've been to don't use them at all. Some people are too in love with them to admit that they aren't actually needed. Undecided I don't mind when they are used very sparingly (as in my parish), since it's better than having everything fall apart when/if our deacons lose the rhythm of the chant, but sometimes when I watch the Nativity liturgy from the Cathedral on Youtube (for instance), I have to turn it down when the cymbal comes up because they're a little too free and excited with it...I guess it doesn't help I can't stand Ibrahim Ayad's voice, and he heads the chorus...I should probably just stop watching it. It's not like there aren't alternatives...

Deacons, deacons everywhere, and not a cymbal to clank  Wink


Why must all Orthodox content be shot using an abacus?
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2012, 06:00:04 PM »

Now that is a good question. I don't know. Huh
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« Reply #26 on: October 28, 2012, 07:26:04 PM »

Why must all Orthodox content be shot using an abacus?

"Sell your fancy camera and give the money to the poor".
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« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2012, 07:30:41 PM »

Does EO encourage Catholic or Protestant  Christians to covert to OO?

No. Most EO wont even know about the OO. Oriental Orthodoxy, not Eastern Orthodoxy, is the best kept secret of the west.

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians  to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

The EO think it's better to go EO, the OO (I presume) think it's better to become OO.  Smiley

If  a EO Christian really want to convert to OO , will you and other EO  Christians stop him/ her?

There are those who would say they are apostatizing from Christ and whose who would say "meh they may as well just be switching jurisdictions."
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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2012, 12:06:39 AM »

There are those who would say they are apostatizing from Christ

Well, there are also some who think Julius Caesar bound the Pleiades and loosed the bands of Orion... police
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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2012, 12:54:20 AM »

There are those who would say they are apostatizing from Christ

Well, there are also some who think Julius Caesar bound the Pleiades and loosed the bands of Orion... police

Classic OC.net.
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« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2012, 12:19:54 PM »

Does EO encourage Catholic or Protestant  Christians to covert to OO?

No. Most EO wont even know about the OO. Oriental Orthodoxy, not Eastern Orthodoxy, is the best kept secret of the west.

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians  to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

The EO think it's better to go EO, the OO (I presume) think it's better to become OO.  Smiley

If  a EO Christian really want to convert to OO , will you and other EO  Christians stop him/ her?

There are those who would say they are apostatizing from Christ and whose who would say "meh they may as well just be switching jurisdictions."

You really don't like Oriental Orthodoxy, do you, William?
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« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2012, 12:40:12 PM »

To be honest, you can't have two true churches, only one united, and true church.
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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2012, 12:42:04 PM »

Does EO encourage Catholic or Protestant  Christians to covert to OO?

No. Most EO wont even know about the OO. Oriental Orthodoxy, not Eastern Orthodoxy, is the best kept secret of the west.

Do EO Christian think thant it is better for Catholic or Protestant Christians  to convert to EO rather than OO?Do EO Christians think that the Catholic and Protestant Christian better not to convert to OO?

The EO think it's better to go EO, the OO (I presume) think it's better to become OO.  Smiley

If  a EO Christian really want to convert to OO , will you and other EO  Christians stop him/ her?

There are those who would say they are apostatizing from Christ and whose who would say "meh they may as well just be switching jurisdictions."

You really don't like Oriental Orthodoxy, do you, William?

How does acknowledging a large spectrum of opinions show like or dislike?

I find the kumbaya attitude taken by most in this thread to be really flawed. But who cares?
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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2012, 01:28:54 PM »

EO always claims itself as the Only True Church in this world.

But it seems that it is not good to tell people that the True Church of God split-up into two parts. Isn't it?

Why would the True Church of God  separate into two group/ two Church?
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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2012, 01:29:30 PM »

How does acknowledging a large spectrum of opinions show like or dislike?

Almost all of your posts about the OO are negative.

EO always claims itself as the Only True Church in this world.

But it seems that it is not good to tell people that the True Church of God split-up into two parts. Isn't it?

Why would the True Church of God  separate into two group?

The Church is one and undivided. The EO think the EOC is the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and and the OO think they're the OHCAC.
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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2012, 01:33:11 PM »

How does acknowledging a large spectrum of opinions show like or dislike?

Almost all of your posts about the OO are negative.

EO always claims itself as the Only True Church in this world.

But it seems that it is not good to tell people that the True Church of God split-up into two parts. Isn't it?

Why would the True Church of God  separate into two group?

The Church is one and undivided. The EO think the EOC is the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and and the OO think they're the OHCAC.

What is OHCAC??
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« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2012, 01:43:22 PM »

What is OHCAC??

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
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« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2012, 01:48:42 PM »

i think both EO and OO are in the true church.
lots of patriarchs in 1990 agreed with me
(www.orthodoxunity.org)

for example, orthodox11 is a true orthodox Christian and so am i!
 Smiley
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When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2012, 01:49:17 PM »

I have serious beef with certain strains of non-Chalcedonian Christology. That's where my beef comes from, but I still want reunion talks.

From what I've seen, William simply doesn't like the OO because they complicate a hypothetical monolithic Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 01:49:54 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2012, 02:38:24 PM »

i think both EO and OO are in the true church.
I'm inclined to agree. Cool
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« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2012, 06:36:28 PM »

I have serious beef with certain strains of non-Chalcedonian Christology. That's where my beef comes from, but I still want reunion talks.

From what I've seen, William simply doesn't like the OO because they complicate a hypothetical monolithic Orthodoxy.

Okay, so you're a liar.
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that is not the teaching of...


« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2012, 06:43:47 PM »

I find the kumbaya attitude taken by most in this thread to be really flawed. But who cares?

 Grin
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« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2012, 09:18:13 PM »

If we have to sing kumbaya together, can we at least bring the daff to make it a bit more bearable?  angel
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When in doubt, say: "you lack the proper φρόνημα"


« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2012, 02:28:35 PM »


Okay, so you're a liar.

How so?
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if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.
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« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2012, 02:38:23 PM »


The B-I-B-L-E tells me so.
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